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Fri, 4 Feb 2022 16:08:48 -0800 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=------------0f0D00oedy03SjVWiJAsvfqh Message-ID: <2a8d4fc1-12a7-2149-1c1b-ec02e3ceae40@fjrhome.net> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 19:08:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.1 Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Content-Language: en-US To: Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <1643988626.542516880@apps.rackspace.com> From: "Frank D. Engel, Jr." In-Reply-To: X-Exim-Id: 2a8d4fc1-12a7-2149-1c1b-ec02e3ceae40 X-Bayes-Prob: 0.9999 (Score 4, tokens from: base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: No geolocation information available for 192.168.101.1 X-CanItPRO-Stream: base:default X-Canit-Stats-ID: 016Pc98qv - 71c1fa9f3542 - 20220204 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 192.168.101.82 X-Originating-IP: 192.168.101.82 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: db3e6b58-8617-11ec-af9d-d0fd3c2fedce Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NN2Y4MzdmY2E1MWQ2ODE5YjJjNzBl?= =?UTF-8?B?NTIwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M7f837fca51d6819b2c70e520:1:uplYoS4K4phXsr0_mx_NGilH7fsKtT-kk2TAuq2NOLU --------------0f0D00oedy03SjVWiJAsvfqh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Students who rely on that will never really learn. From my perspective, most supposedly modern systems have been a bigger=20 waste of time than some of the older ones. Windoze, Linux, etc. in some ways still have not caught up to features=20 that Multics and Plan 9, among other systems, had to offer decades ago -=20 and they are bolting things on that came naturally to the older systems,=20 so they don't work very well in contrast.=C2=A0 They build complexity on=20 complexity instead of leveraging a simple consistent approach that can=20 actually be understood. Multics was in some ways a conceptual precursor to today's "cloud=20 computing" (in the sense that it was engineered to be a multi-tenant=20 system with separate projects being billed for the resources they used),=20 while also introducing the world to concepts such as access control=20 lists (ACLs). Plan 9 offers a level of network transparency and process=20 interoperability that most of our "modern" systems don't seem to be able=20 to get right, not to mention having been well-designed for working=20 transparently across systems with differing architectures (SPARC, MIPS,=20 etc.) out of a common file system. If a student just wants to write business logic for some big company=20 doing batch processing or wants to create web sites or some such then=20 sure, let them stick with what is out there at the moment.=C2=A0 If they=20 really want to understand computers and computer programming, they=20 should try to learn from the ground up.=C2=A0 Being limited to "modern"=20 systems won't get them nearly as far as being exposed to a range of=20 ideas and different approaches that have been taken over time. =E2=80=9CThose who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=95Edmund Burke On 2/4/22 12:48 PM, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote: > On Fri, Feb 04, 2022 at 09:30:26AM -0600, Kent R. Spillner wrote: >> In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for the= m? ;) >> > In my experience needing to be told what's best for them is the defining > characteristic of a student > > khm > > > ------------------------------------------ > 9fans: 9fans > Permalink:https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mebbb= c70d0d122fd7d3ec1dfc > Delivery options:https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M7f837= fca51d6819b2c70e520 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --------------0f0D00oedy03SjVWiJAsvfqh Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= p>Students who rely on that will never really learn.

From my perspective,= most supposedly modern systems have been a bigger waste of time than some of the older ones.

Windoze, Linux, e= tc. in some ways still have not caught up to features that Multics and Plan 9, among other systems, had to offer decades ago - and they are bolting things on that came naturally to the older systems, so they don't work very well in contrast.  They build complexity on complexity instead of leveraging a simple consistent approach that can actually be understood.

Multics was in some ways a conceptual precursor to toda= y's "cloud computing" (in the sense that it was engineered to be a multi-tenant system with separate projects being billed for the resources they used), while also introducing the world to concepts such as access control lists (ACLs).

Plan 9 offers a level of netwo= rk transparency and process interoperability that most of our "modern" systems don'= t seem to be able to get right, not to mention having been well-designed for working transparently across systems with differing architectures (SPARC, MIPS, etc.) out of a common file system.

If a student= just wants to write business logic for some big company doing batch processing or wants to create web sites or some such then sure, let them stick with what is out there at the moment.  If they really want to understand computers and computer programming, they should try to learn from the ground up.  Being limited to "modern" systems won't get them nearly as fa= r as being exposed to a range of ideas and different approaches that have been taken over time.


“Those = who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

― Edmund Burke


On 2/4/22 12:48 PM, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
On Fri, Feb 04, 2022=
 at 09:30:26AM -0600, Kent R. Spillner wrote:

In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for th=
em?  ;)


In my experience needing to be told what's best for them is the defining
characteristic of a student

khm


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9fans: 9fans
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