[9fans] secstore and PAKserver

[9fans] secstore and PAKserver

[lucio]

I note in /sys/src/cmd/auth/secstore/pak.c:

	// PAK is an encrypted key exchange protocol designed by Philip MacKenzie et al.
	// It is patented and use outside Plan 9 requires you get a license.
	// (All other EKE protocols are patented as well, by Lucent or others.)

I want to leverage the functionality of the secstore for a different
application (I'm not yet ready to publicize the details, but I will to
anyone who shows some interest), but this seems to put a bit of a
spanner in the works.  Naturally, I can prototype with it, but in the
long term I have either to licence the PAK stuff (who do I contact?)
or to replace the code with an analogous facility.

Has the licence been waved for p9p?  What are the terms of the
licence?  Does anyone know of licence free options to perform a
similar function?  I suppose I ought to ask what is so special about
PAK, too or, more to the point, what does it do that made Bell Labs
choose it for the secstore?  Maybe if I understood PAK better I'd be
able to decide whether it is as important in my application as it was
for the secstore.

++L

[9fans] Re: secstore and PAKserver

[Darren Bane]

lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> I note in /sys/src/cmd/auth/secstore/pak.c:
> 
>        // PAK is an encrypted key exchange protocol designed by Philip MacKenzie et al.
>        // It is patented and use outside Plan 9 requires you get a license.
>        // (All other EKE protocols are patented as well, by Lucent or others.)
> 
> I want to leverage the functionality of the secstore for a different
> application (I'm not yet ready to publicize the details, but I will to
> anyone who shows some interest), but this seems to put a bit of a
> spanner in the works.  Naturally, I can prototype with it, but in the
> long term I have either to licence the PAK stuff (who do I contact?)
> or to replace the code with an analogous facility.
> 
> Has the licence been waved for p9p?  What are the terms of the
> licence?  Does anyone know of licence free options to perform a
> similar function?  I suppose I ought to ask what is so special about
> PAK, too or, more to the point, what does it do that made Bell Labs
> choose it for the secstore?  Maybe if I understood PAK better I'd be
> able to decide whether it is as important in my application as it was
> for the secstore.
> 
> ++L

Are US patents applicable outside the US? I know copyright is, under the
Berne convention, but I thought the patent systems were still strictly
national.
-- 
Darren Bane

Re: [9fans] Re: secstore and PAKserver

[Anthony Sorace]

// ...I thought the patent systems were still strictly national.

the patent systems are still national (with some exceptions like the
complex mess in the EU), but there's nothing to prevent LU (or anyone
else) filing in multiple jurisdictions. one can submit a single filing
under the Patent Cooperation Treaty that preserves the priority date,
but the national phase still has to be completed later in each
country. without the potential patent holder simply giving you a
reference, there's no way to tell whether a similar patent exists in
any particular jurisdiction without doing an explicit search (and
google's patent search only covers US patents to date).

Re: [9fans] Re: secstore and PAKserver

[Gorka Guardiola]

There are no software patents (or algorithms) in Europe, as far as
I know.

On 8/28/07, Anthony Sorace <anothy@gmail.com> wrote:
> // ...I thought the patent systems were still strictly national.
>
> the patent systems are still national (with some exceptions like the
> complex mess in the EU), but there's nothing to prevent LU (or anyone
> else) filing in multiple jurisdictions. one can submit a single filing
> under the Patent Cooperation Treaty that preserves the priority date,
> but the national phase still has to be completed later in each
> country. without the potential patent holder simply giving you a
> reference, there's no way to tell whether a similar patent exists in
> any particular jurisdiction without doing an explicit search (and
> google's patent search only covers US patents to date).
>


-- 
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] Re: secstore and PAKserver

[Andrés Domínguez]

2007/8/28, Gorka Guardiola <paurea@gmail.com>:
> There are no software patents (or algorithms) in Europe, as far as
> I know.

AFAIK, software or algorithms patents are ilegal in Europe. But I don't
know what will happen if approved with old ilegal patents.

Re: [9fans] secstore and PAKserver

[William Josephson]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 06:19:24PM -0400, Russ Cox wrote:
> If you're not using Plan 9 code, you might look at SRP.
> I don't think the licensing issues are any less murky than PAK,
> but they are at least more widely studied.

There ought to be an SRP implementation for secstore
lying around somewhere, possibly at the Labs.  I did
one the summer the USENIX security paper got written.

Re: [9fans] secstore and PAKserver

[Russ Cox]

> I want to leverage the functionality of the secstore for a different
> application (I'm not yet ready to publicize the details, but I will to
> anyone who shows some interest), but this seems to put a bit of a
> spanner in the works.  Naturally, I can prototype with it, but in the
> long term I have either to licence the PAK stuff (who do I contact?)
> or to replace the code with an analogous facility.
> 
> Has the licence been waved for p9p?  What are the terms of the
> licence?  Does anyone know of licence free options to perform a
> similar function?  I suppose I ought to ask what is so special about
> PAK, too or, more to the point, what does it do that made Bell Labs
> choose it for the secstore?  Maybe if I understood PAK better I'd be
> able to decide whether it is as important in my application as it was
> for the secstore.

I am not a lawyer; this is not legal advice.

The Lucent Public License permits redistribution of the programs
contained in the Plan 9 distribution, secstore included, in source
or binary forms, and includes appropriate copyright and patent
licenses.  I believe that is the only license needed for me to 
distribute the p9p programs.  I have no special arrangement
with Lucent.

The details are in /LICENSE.

Of course, in such licensing situations, I have never understood
where the line is between redistributing the entire Plan 9 software
(obviously permitted, with copyright and patent licenses granted)
and redistributing just a few snippets of Plan 9 code that make up
an insignificant part of a larger program that happens to use 
techniques from those same patents.  I'm fairly certain p9p is on
the first side of that line, but I still don't know where the line is.

If this really matters to you, you should talk to a lawyer.

If you're not using Plan 9 code, you might look at SRP.
I don't think the licensing issues are any less murky than PAK,
but they are at least more widely studied.

Russ

[9fans] secstore and PAKserver

[lucio]

I note in /sys/src/cmd/auth/secstore/pak.c:

	// PAK is an encrypted key exchange protocol designed by Philip MacKenzie et al.
	// It is patented and use outside Plan 9 requires you get a license.
	// (All other EKE protocols are patented as well, by Lucent or others.)

I want to leverage the functionality of the secstore for a different
application (I'm not yet ready to publicize the details, but I will to
anyone who shows some interest), but this seems to put a bit of a
spanner in the works.  Naturally, I can prototype with it, but in the
long term I have either to licence the PAK stuff (who do I contact?)
or to replace the code with an analogous facility.

Has the licence been waved for p9p?  What are the terms of the
licence?  Does anyone know of licence free options to perform a
similar function?  I suppose I ought to ask what is so special about
PAK, too or, more to the point, what does it do that made Bell Labs
choose it for the secstore?  Maybe if I understood PAK better I'd be
able to decide whether it is as important in my application as it was
for the secstore.

++L