[9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[ron minnich]

http://www.lemote.com/english/yeeloong.html

It's an interesting site for a number of reasons ...

ron

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[Anthony Sorace]

i was looking at this a week or two ago, trying to find an ARM or MIPS
laptop to play with. my first question was whether the "missing" parts
of the MIPS instruction set are things that our compilers currently
generate; SoC (oh, and my day job) ramped up before i could find the
list of missing instructions. any idea?

getting quotes or delivery in the US seemed tricky, too.

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[ron minnich]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Anthony Sorace <anothy@gmail.com> wrote:
> i was looking at this a week or two ago, trying to find an ARM or MIPS
> laptop to play with. my first question was whether the "missing" parts
> of the MIPS instruction set are things that our compilers currently
> generate; SoC (oh, and my day job) ramped up before i could find the
> list of missing instructions. any idea?
>
> getting quotes or delivery in the US seemed tricky, too.

so, here's a silghtly controversial (maybe) suggestion. Maybe my
memory is wrong, but i believe the vx32 kernel is gcc-compiled. There
is gcc for this CPU. It might be easier to start from the vx32 kernel
and gcc to target this machine, rather than do a 64-bit MIPS port of
the plan 9 C compiler. Or not: a few of the folks on this list could
probably retarget in very short order (I'm not one of the,however).

ron

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[erik quanstrom]

> so, here's a silghtly controversial (maybe) suggestion. Maybe my
> memory is wrong, but i believe the vx32 kernel is gcc-compiled. There
> is gcc for this CPU. It might be easier to start from the vx32 kernel
> and gcc to target this machine, rather than do a 64-bit MIPS port of
> the plan 9 C compiler. Or not: a few of the folks on this list could
> probably retarget in very short order (I'm not one of the,however).

vx32 relies on x86 segment registers.

- erik

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[ron minnich]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:43 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>> so, here's a silghtly controversial (maybe) suggestion. Maybe my
>> memory is wrong, but i believe the vx32 kernel is gcc-compiled. There
>> is gcc for this CPU. It might be easier to start from the vx32 kernel
>> and gcc to target this machine, rather than do a 64-bit MIPS port of
>> the plan 9 C compiler. Or not: a few of the folks on this list could
>> probably retarget in very short order (I'm not one of the,however).
>
> vx32 relies on x86 segment registers.

Let me say it differently. The way in which the plan 9 kernel code was
changed to be gcc-compilable as part of the vx32 kernel might provide
some hints as to how to change a whole plan 9 kernel. The point being,
it is not impossible to get a gcc-compilable plan 9 kernel. We used to
talk about this at LANL all the time: we called it the "evil project".
(This idea predates vx32 but it was not my idea; I will let the evil
person behind the evil project identify himself). This change would
remove "have to port&test&validate&fix&validate&... the C compiler
first" as a barrier to entry on new CPUs.

see src/vx32 in the vx32 tree.

ron

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[erik quanstrom]

> Let me say it differently. The way in which the plan 9 kernel code was
> changed to be gcc-compilable as part of the vx32 kernel might provide
> some hints as to how to change a whole plan 9 kernel. The point being,
> it is not impossible to get a gcc-compilable plan 9 kernel. We used to
> talk about this at LANL all the time: we called it the "evil project".
> (This idea predates vx32 but it was not my idea; I will let the evil
> person behind the evil project identify himself). This change would
> remove "have to port&test&validate&fix&validate&... the C compiler
> first" as a barrier to entry on new CPUs.
>
> see src/vx32 in the vx32 tree.

i'm really missing something.  what executables does this
kernel run?  how are they generated?

wouldn't it just be easier to use 32-bit compatability mode
(http://www.mips.com/products/processors/architectures/mips64/)
for bootstrapping using vc?

- erik

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[ron minnich]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 8:15 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> i'm really missing something.  what executables does this
> kernel run?  how are they generated?

one of us is. I'll let it drop here because it might be me.

ron

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort

[lucio]

> wouldn't it just be easier to use 32-bit compatability mode
> (http://www.mips.com/products/processors/architectures/mips64/)
> for bootstrapping using vc?

Please don't go there!  I have just ordered (and paid for) one of
those gadgets and foremost in my mind was the hope that I would not
have to deal with a BIOS that needed emulation to be executed.

That said, the claim is that it will be here in five days, but this is
Africa so I'll give it two weeks.  After that, anyone who wants to
hold my hand is welcome.  The timezone here is +0200 and my daytime
cycle (adjustable, of course) is 05:30 to 22:30, approximately.

++L

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort

[erik quanstrom]

On Fri Mar 20 11:34:28 EDT 2009, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> > wouldn't it just be easier to use 32-bit compatability mode
> > (http://www.mips.com/products/processors/architectures/mips64/)
> > for bootstrapping using vc?
>
> Please don't go there!  I have just ordered (and paid for) one of
> those gadgets and foremost in my mind was the hope that I would not
> have to deal with a BIOS that needed emulation to be executed.

what leads you to believe that you need to call their open
bios, it doesn't deal with 32-bit mode, it can't be modified to
deal with 32-bit mode and mode switching is impracticable?
(or whatever the correct order is.)

- erik

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort

[Charles Forsyth]

for the RISC processors, it should be relatively straightforward to do the 64-bit
variant of ?[acl], given an existing 32-bit one,
and i'd be surprised if the applications also didn't work immediately
since they run in 64-bit mode on amd64. (anyway, they required relatively little
work, and the compiler can help, because only long long and pointers are 64-bit, unlike gcc.)

the kernel work is another matter; the essential 64-bit changes have been made,
but you still need to adapt or change the 32-bit MIPS kernel implementation to suit,
and write drivers.  what does the device use for graphics?

i'm sure i've booted a 32-bit MIPS kernel on a potentially 64-bit MIPS processor.
set a bit or two and it works; i don't think there was much more than that.

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort

[Uriel]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> the kernel work is another matter; the essential 64-bit changes have been made,

But not released. Maybe the GSoC students can work telepathically on
it, that is a skill that will come handy in their future Plan 9
contributions.

uriel

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort

[lucio]

> i'm really missing something.  what executables does this
> kernel run?  how are they generated?

Executing ELFs is not the most difficult thing on earth, LinuxEmu does
it in its sleep.  Moving the functionality into the kernel would be
trivial for anyone who does not insist in understanding the full ELF
specifications before doing it.

The details on where I'm at with this particular effort are available
off list for the asking.  I really don't mind having a shoulder to cry
on :-)

++L

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[Russ Cox]

ron is suggesting is that with minimal effort
the plan 9 kernel could be made to compile
using gcc instead of the standard plan 9 compilers.
he's right.

erik's point is that once you have a kernel up,
you still need to give it executables to run.
this either requires porting the standard compilers
to the target machine or somehow making
the entire source tree compile under gcc,
which would require significantly more effort
than the kernel.  he's also right.

it all depends on what you want from plan 9.

for me, the fleet plan 9 compilers save me
so much time and make me so much more
productive compared to waiting on gcc that
on balance i'd rather spend the time to port
the compiler than switch to gcc.

ron is already using gcc to generate binaries
to run on plan 9, though, and his use of plan 9
depends much more heavily on the "plays well
with networks" aspect than it does on the
fast compilation.  and maybe there's no one
to write the new compiler.  there, using gcc might
make sense.

russ

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[ron minnich]

Is a mips-64 port a reasonable GSOC project? The person doing it could
not come in cold, but there is a starting point it seems.

In spite of my earlier suggestion, I have to agree with Russ. Gcc and
its utils are a daily headache for me, I'd rather just get a mips-64
compiler port first.

ron

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[James Tomaschke]

I would suggest the compiler as well, students are probably more
familiar with compiler concepts and it will probably be easier to
mentor.  In the future, the porting work can be distributed over the
community anyways.

ron minnich wrote:
> Is a mips-64 port a reasonable GSOC project? The person doing it could
> not come in cold, but there is a starting point it seems.
>
> In spite of my earlier suggestion, I have to agree with Russ. Gcc and
> its utils are a daily headache for me, I'd rather just get a mips-64
> compiler port first.
>
> ron
>
>

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[ron minnich]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 4:52 PM, James Tomaschke <james@orcasystems.com> wrote:
> I would suggest the compiler as well, students are probably more familiar
> with compiler concepts and it will probably be easier to mentor.  In the
> future, the porting work can be distributed over the community anyways.

Sorry, I was not clear: I only meant a mips-64 compiler port.

rno

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[Devon H. O'Dell]

2009/3/20 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 4:52 PM, James Tomaschke <james@orcasystems.com> wrote:
>> I would suggest the compiler as well, students are probably more familiar
>> with compiler concepts and it will probably be easier to mentor.  In the
>> future, the porting work can be distributed over the community anyways.
>
> Sorry, I was not clear: I only meant a mips-64 compiler port.

I think so. Who wants to mentor? I'd be up for getting one of these
puppies if anybody wants to do it (though they are rather expensive
considering no US distributor... harrumph) and mentoring to some
degree, but I'm more likely to want to help out with (and probably a
better contact for) 9vx work than that.

--dho

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[Iruata Souza]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 12:15 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> wouldn't it just be easier to use 32-bit compatability mode
> (http://www.mips.com/products/processors/architectures/mips64/)
> for bootstrapping using vc?

that's how i started playing.

iru

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of) notebook

[Iruata Souza]

tim weiss started work on kencc mips64 port and I started (w/o the
compiler) playing with Plan 9 on mips64 based on the old carrera port.

the stupid initial code is at http://src.oitobits.net/9sgi

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:24 PM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Anthony Sorace <anothy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> i was looking at this a week or two ago, trying to find an ARM or MIPS
>> laptop to play with. my first question was whether the "missing" parts
>> of the MIPS instruction set are things that our compilers currently
>> generate; SoC (oh, and my day job) ramped up before i could find the
>> list of missing instructions. any idea?
>>
>> getting quotes or delivery in the US seemed tricky, too.
>
> so, here's a silghtly controversial (maybe) suggestion. Maybe my
> memory is wrong, but i believe the vx32 kernel is gcc-compiled. There
> is gcc for this CPU. It might be easier to start from the vx32 kernel
> and gcc to target this machine, rather than do a 64-bit MIPS port of
> the plan 9 C compiler. Or not: a few of the folks on this list could
> probably retarget in very short order (I'm not one of the,however).
>
> ron
>
>



--
iru

Re: [9fans] MIPS-64

[Tim Wiess]

Yes I started on working the toolchain a couple years ago, based on
some earlier work done at the labs.  Development stalled due to other
work at the time and I never got back to it.

But it's on sources (tim/4acl.tgz) if anybody wants to pick it up.
I'm happy to provide any help.

tim


> tim weiss started work on kencc mips64 port and I started (w/o the
> compiler) playing with Plan 9 on mips64 based on the old carrera port.
>
> the stupid initial code is at http://src.oitobits.net/9sgi
>
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:24 PM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Anthony Sorace <anothy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> i was looking at this a week or two ago, trying to find an ARM or MIPS
>>> laptop to play with. my first question was whether the "missing" parts
>>> of the MIPS instruction set are things that our compilers currently
>>> generate; SoC (oh, and my day job) ramped up before i could find the
>>> list of missing instructions. any idea?
>>>
>>> getting quotes or delivery in the US seemed tricky, too.
>>
>> so, here's a silghtly controversial (maybe) suggestion. Maybe my
>> memory is wrong, but i believe the vx32 kernel is gcc-compiled. There
>> is gcc for this CPU. It might be easier to start from the vx32 kernel
>> and gcc to target this machine, rather than do a 64-bit MIPS port of
>> the plan 9 C compiler. Or not: a few of the folks on this list could
>> probably retarget in very short order (I'm not one of the,however).
>>
>> ron
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> iru

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort

[john]

> i was looking at this a week or two ago, trying to find an ARM or MIPS
> laptop to play with. my first question was whether the "missing" parts
> of the MIPS instruction set are things that our compilers currently
> generate; SoC (oh, and my day job) ramped up before i could find the
> list of missing instructions. any idea?
>
> getting quotes or delivery in the US seemed tricky, too.

I found this a couple months ago and showed it to Ron, tried to get a
quote or some info on buying them but nobody even replied to my email.
Can you even get them in China?  Are they even being produced?


John

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort

[Jack Johnson]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:49 PM,  <john@csplan9.rit.edu> wrote:
> I found this a couple months ago and showed it to Ron, tried to get a
> quote or some info on buying them but nobody even replied to my email.
> Can you even get them in China?  Are they even being produced?

There's some reseller in the U.K., I think.  Let me see if I can dig it up.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort

[Jack Johnson]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's some reseller in the U.K., I think.  Let me see if I can dig it up.

Whoops, wrong country:

http://www.tekmote.nl/epages/61504599.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61504599/Categories/%22Lemote%20product%22

-Jack

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort

[Jason Gurtz]

On 3/19/2009 22:49, john@csplan9.rit.edu wrote:
> Can you even get them in China?  Are they even being produced?

Straight from the Dutch...
<http://www.tekmote.nl/epages/61504599.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61504599/Categories>

~Jason

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64 (sort of)

[lucio]

> http://www.lemote.com/english/yeeloong.html
>
> It's an interesting site for a number of reasons ...

Yes, it is.  How hard will it be to do business with them?  I have a
feeling we'd want a single point of contact to save a lot of
heartache.

++L

Re: [9fans] I can not remember if I sent this or not: MIPS-64

[Abhishek Kulkarni]

Another interesting netbook (also based on LongSoon) to watch out for
would be the Gdium Liberty:
http://www.gdium.com/en/product/liberty1000

I am trying to figure out how to get one in the US.

On Mar 19, 6:00�pm, rminn...@gmail.com (ron minnich) wrote:
> http://www.lemote.com/english/yeeloong.html
>
> It's an interesting site for a number of reasons ...
>
> ron