Re: [9fans] a simple question

Re: [9fans] a simple question

[presotto]

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both

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From: yan zhao <yzhao2@math.luc.edu>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] a simple question
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:55:08 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10209191351040.5784-100000@abel>

Hi, there:

Can someone tell me whether factotum exists on the side of the client or
on the side of server? Thanks!

Best,
Yan

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[northern snowfall]

> What if I'm more an ice cream truck driver than an army?

Then bust out the soft serve, bro. It's summer time!

Don

http://www.7f.no-ip.com/~north_

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[boyd, rounin]

> Then bust out the soft serve, bro. It's summer time!

well, in one hemisphere :)

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Jack Johnson]

northern snowfall wrote:
>> but that's the 'army or programmers' tar pit.
> I prefer the Army of Me.

What if I'm more an ice cream truck driver than an army?

-J

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Bruce Ellis wrote:

> 5l on sources is the froggie loader.
>
> /usr/inferno/os/port/devdynload.c is the driver

Thanks bruce. I am still a newbie so brucee did not ring any bells with
me.

Is there any (sorry to ask) licensing issue if I try to port this to 4e?

thanks

ron

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[northern snowfall]

>
>
>much as i hate lunix, the redhat install was pretty impressive,
>but that's the 'army or programmers' tar pit.
>

I prefer the Army of Me.

Don

http://www.7f.no-ip.com/~north_

>

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[boyd, rounin]

> Yes, that's where composition came into the picture.  But that
> needs to be clever, with character scaling to make room for accents
> becoming more than a trivial nuisance.  Technically, it doesn't
> matter what a symbol stands for, as much as it needs to be _presented_
> in an unambiguous, clear fashion.

yes that is not a problem.

> Whether it's a pronunciation issue or a distinct character (is the
> final letter in "papa" and "papà" a pronunciation aid or a different
> character in the sense of differentiating words with different
> meanings?) is not important to its internal or external repreentation.

but it's a big problem when you come to write sort(1).

> But I do get your point that overlaps of alphabets for different
> languages does add complexity.  Maybe there is enough scope in
> UTF-8 or Unicode to allow many-to one internal to external mappings.

it really is a nasty problem.  python [makes a crucifix sign] lets you add
codecs and all sorts of horrible crap.

> The existence of a phonetic alphabet is a different issue, too vast
> to address here (without composition capabilities, specially).

phonetic alphabets are easy.  well japanese would be perfect if
they had stuck with the kana, but the kanji really messes
things up.  i think the wost character has 17 readings and that
can ruin your whole day.

just my rounin tattoo:

    http://www.insultant.net/images/rounin.jpg

has three readings and a 4th in chinese.

> Suffice to say even in Plan 9 there are fonts that do not have all
> the useful glyphs in them, so whereas UTF-8 is a great abstraction
> for internal purposes, there should be a more definite standard
> about externalising it.

well maybe.  i'd be happier if i could chose my keyboard layout
as part of the install.

much as i hate lunix, the redhat install was pretty impressive,
but that's the 'army or programmers' tar pit.

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Lucio De Re]

On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 08:03:20AM +0200, boyd, rounin wrote:
> 
> well if unicode was organised so that each language had its own
> code space it would be a trivial problem.
> 
Well, I'm assuming a total rewrite of the alphabets anyway. Although
ideograms really don't fit in the same representation space.

> look at latin 1 (for want of a better term): it covers a whole bunch
> of languages, with different collation sequences and many of the
> glyphs are not actually _real letters_.
> 
Yes, that's where composition came into the picture.  But that
needs to be clever, with character scaling to make room for accents
becoming more than a trivial nuisance.  Technically, it doesn't
matter what a symbol stands for, as much as it needs to be _presented_
in an unambiguous, clear fashion.

Whether it's a pronunciation issue or a distinct character (is the
final letter in "papa" and "papà" a pronunciation aid or a different
character in the sense of differentiating words with different
meanings?) is not important to its internal or external repreentation.

But I do get your point that overlaps of alphabets for different
languages does add complexity.  Maybe there is enough scope in
UTF-8 or Unicode to allow many-to one internal to external mappings.

The existence of a phonetic alphabet is a different issue, too vast
to address here (without composition capabilities, specially).
Suffice to say even in Plan 9 there are fonts that do not have all
the useful glyphs in them, so whereas UTF-8 is a great abstraction
for internal purposes, there should be a more definite standard
about externalising it.

++L

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[boyd, rounin]

well if unicode was organised so that each language had its own
code space it would be a trivial problem.

look at latin 1 (for want of a better term): it covers a whole bunch
of languages, with different collation sequences and many of the
glyphs are not actually _real letters_.

é tells me how to pronounce it (as far as i'm concerned), but it's
not really a character (ô is probably a better example).

ö is a real character in swedish:  en öl = a beer.

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Lucio De Re]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 08:09:12AM -0700, Jack Johnson wrote:
>
> So you know I had to look it up:
>
> J, K, W, X and Y (for you inglese)
>
Yep.  And never thought it weird :-)

> > Here are a couple of heresies I indulge in:
> >
> > 	- Capital letters should be part of a different font.
>
> Can you explain this a little further?  Do you mean that a font should
> be entirely one case or the other?
>
Not really, now that you make me think about it.  SOme fonts have
more characters than others.  The uppercase font would have only
26 letters in it (for the English alphabet) while the lower case
font would have 26 fewer.  May seem a little odd, but is it?

Of course, all the accents and other qualifiers would have
corresponding entries in each font, once you go that route.
Composition as in APL may be another approach, but it strikes me
as too hard to manage (doesn't really scale?).

I confess it is just a foible of mine, but I'm curious to see how
it strikes others.

++L

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Bruce Ellis]

5l on sources is the froggie loader.

/usr/inferno/os/port/devdynload.c is the driver

----- Original Message -----
From: <jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 4:13 AM
Subject: Re: [9fans] A simple question


> On Thu Jul 10 12:40:15 EDT 2003, boyd@insultant.net wrote:
> > > It was running on the froggies as well.
> >
> > that's how i remember it.
>
> that may be, but it's not in any source tree i have access to.
>

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[boyd, rounin]

> that may be, but it's not in any source tree i have access to.

yup 'cos he was in 118 (iirc).

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[jmk]

On Thu Jul 10 12:40:15 EDT 2003, boyd@insultant.net wrote:
> > It was running on the froggies as well.
>
> that's how i remember it.

that may be, but it's not in any source tree i have access to.

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Tad Hunt]

In message <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307100513580.11559-100000@maxroach.lanl.gov>, you said:
;On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Tad Hunt wrote:
;
;> I thought that Brucee already did the compiler and device work to
;> make dynamically loadable kernel modules work.
;
;pointer?

Brucee.

-Tad

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[boyd, rounin]

> It was running on the froggies as well.

that's how i remember it.

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Dan Cross]

> I've been tinkering with this off and on. As I understand it, Brucee
> put the support in Inferno, but only for the ps2 I think.

It was running on the froggies as well.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[rog]

> Yes, I'm still trying to figure out how to enter the "cap" device
> code :-(

in general,

	grep c /lib/keyboard

will tell you if there's a keyboard shortcut;
otherwise:

	unicode c

will give you its hex value (enter with alt-X-digits)
and

	grep hex /lib/unicode

might tell you what it's called.

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Jack Johnson]

Lucio De Re wrote:
> I'm an internationalisation philistine (Italian has only 21 letters in
> its alphabet, I guess I'll never grow out of that mold), but thank you
> for the useful snippet.

So you know I had to look it up:

J, K, W, X and Y (for you inglese)

> Here are a couple of heresies I indulge in:
>
> 	- Capital letters should be part of a different font.

Can you explain this a little further?  Do you mean that a font should
be entirely one case or the other?

-J

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[boyd, rounin]

> - Internationalisation should occur exclusively in the
>   presentation layer (rio?).

i think that's a bad idea.  err, internationalisation is hard.

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[jmk]

On Thu Jul 10 07:17:05 EDT 2003, rminnich@lanl.gov wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Tad Hunt wrote:
> 
> > I thought that Brucee already did the compiler and device work to
> > make dynamically loadable kernel modules work.
> 
> pointer?
> 
> ron

I've been tinkering with this off and on. As I understand it, Brucee put the
support in Inferno, but only for the ps2 I think. David Hogan put the support
in the Plan 9 compiler/loader and library support for the 386, α, arm, mips
and power, but the external interface was a little different from what brucee
did. It's not on sources.

I'll look and see what I can do, but don't expect anything immediate.

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Lucio De Re]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 10:24:24AM -0400, David Presotto wrote:
>
> alt g $ - its a currency symbol

I'm an internationalisation philistine (Italian has only 21 letters in
its alphabet, I guess I'll never grow out of that mold), but thank you
for the useful snippet.

Here are a couple of heresies I indulge in:

	- Capital letters should be part of a different font.
	- Internationalisation should occur exclusively in the
	  presentation layer (rio?).

I guess they are not that outlandish, really.  Does anyone have
similar suggestions?

++L

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[David Presotto]

alt g $ - its a currency symbol

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[boyd, rounin]

> How about reserving zero to nine (digits) for local application?

any unicode character can be used.

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Lucio De Re]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 04:14:52PM +0200, boyd, rounin wrote:
>
> > How about reserving zero to nine (digits) for local application?
>
> any unicode character can be used.

Yes, I'm still trying to figure out how to enter the "cap" device
code :-(

++L

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[David Presotto]

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Good idea, I added the following:

α	local use
β	local use
γ	local use
δ	local use
ε	local use
ζ	local use
η	local use
θ	local use
ι	local use
κ	local use

We won't use those letters in the release.

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From: Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] A simple question
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:31:21 +0200
Message-ID: <20030710133120.C7106@cackle.proxima.alt.za>

On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 05:11:48AM -0600, ron minnich wrote:
>
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Russ Cox wrote:
>
> > /sys/src/9/port/master says otherwise.
>
> Oh well, seriously, what should I use for this thing?
>
How about reserving zero to nine (digits) for local application?

Or is that not possible?

++L

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Lucio De Re]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 05:11:48AM -0600, ron minnich wrote:
>
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Russ Cox wrote:
>
> > /sys/src/9/port/master says otherwise.
>
> Oh well, seriously, what should I use for this thing?
>
How about reserving zero to nine (digits) for local application?

Or is that not possible?

++L

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Tad Hunt wrote:

> I thought that Brucee already did the compiler and device work to
> make dynamically loadable kernel modules work.

pointer?

ron

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Russ Cox wrote:

> > space and call them. I'm doing this via a device I've called zoot (#z)
> > since I don't believe anybody else is using #z.
>
> /sys/src/9/port/master says otherwise.


quick! somebody name a letter!

Oh well, seriously, what should I use for this thing?

ron

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[boyd, rounin]

 > I thought that Brucee already did the compiler and device work to
> make dynamically loadable kernel modules work.

but this woulda been on inferno, right?

bit like the OSI model really :)

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Tad Hunt]

In message <f3443ab88e775c0316aa3c73066bb5b2@plan9.bell-labs.com>, you said:
;> space and call them. I'm doing this via a device I've called zoot (#z)
;> since I don't believe anybody else is using #z.

I thought that Brucee already did the compiler and device work to
make dynamically loadable kernel modules work.

-Tad

Re: [9fans] A simple question

[Russ Cox]

> space and call them. I'm doing this via a device I've called zoot (#z)
> since I don't believe anybody else is using #z.

/sys/src/9/port/master says otherwise.

[9fans] A simple question

[ron minnich]

I have a little program, a.c:
#include <blahblah.h>
int a(){ print("hi\n"); }

I want to link the a.8 program produced by 8.c against the 9pcdisk image
and produce an 8.out, something like this:
8l -T some-base-address a.8 9pcdisk

I want the 8.out to be JUST the a.8 with symbol fixups from 9pcdisk, and
based at 'some-base-address'.

Now obviously that doesn't *quite* work, since 9pcdisk is not something
you can link against. So what I'm really after is something like this:
8l -T some-base-address -d 9pcdisk a.8
This would use 9pcdisk to define the symbols.

I don't really want to work with 9pcdisk directly, so I did this:
nm 9pcdisk > kname
I get a log of entries in kname like this:
0x80400040  T somesymbol

And then all I need to do is set up 8l to read this file and pre-define a
bunch of symbols (or so I think).

So as a test I put this code into 8l, ripping off the readundefs code
(defs is an array of names of define files to use, defsp is how many there
are):

void
readdefs(void)
{
        int i, n;
        Sym *s;
        Biobuf *b;
        char *l, buf[256], *fields[3];

        for(i = 0; i < defsp; i++) {
                b = Bopen(defs[i], OREAD);
                if(b == nil) {
                        diag("could not open %s: %r", defs[i]);
                        errorexit();
                }
                while((l = Brdline(b, '\n')) != nil) {
                        n = Blinelen(b);
                        if(n >= sizeof(buf)) {
                                diag("%s: line too long", defs[i]);
                                errorexit();
                        }
                        strncpy(buf, l, n);
                        n = getfields(buf, fields, nelem(fields), 1, "
\t\r\n");
                        if(n == nelem(fields)) {
                                diag("%s: bad format", defs[i]);
                                errorexit();
                        }
                        if ((*fields[1] != 'T') && (*fields[1] != 'D'))
                                continue;
                        s = lookup(fields[2], 0);
                        if (*fields[1] == 'T')
                                s->type = STEXT;
                        else
                                s->type = SDATA;
                        s->value = strtol(fields[0], 0, 0);
                }
                Bterm(b);
        }
}

I.e. read the kname file, and for all the 'T' and 'D' entries, put a
symbol table entry in for those names.

Well, this sort of works, but I have not figured out how to make 8l NOT
change the values of these symbols. In other words, print starts out with
some value from 9pcdisk, but in 8.out it has a different value. Not what
I want at all. I want 8.out to have a fixed up symbol for print, with the
value found in 9pcdisk.

I also think I'm missing some bits which are probably needed to link
correctly. I set name, value, and type;  I think I might need to set
frame; are version and become required?

If it's not obvious I need this to allow me to put code images into kernel
space and call them. I'm doing this via a device I've called zoot (#z)
since I don't believe anybody else is using #z. This work is for two uses:
modules and Plan 9 booting Plan 9. I started on Plan 9 booting Plan 9
since fixing 9load AND Plan 9 issues for linuxbios is twice as much work
as just trying to fix Plan 9 for linuxbios. If Plan 9 can boot Plan 9,
then I can stop worrying about 9load.

Now if somebody has already done both these things just tell me and I can
stop :-)

BTW #z, so far, is in port, not pc, and I hope to keep it that way.

ron

Re: [9fans] a simple question

[Charles Forsyth]

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(excluding the /sys/src/fs file server)

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From: yan zhao <yzhao2@math.luc.edu>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] a simple question
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:55:08 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10209191351040.5784-100000@abel>

Hi, there:

Can someone tell me whether factotum exists on the side of the client or
on the side of server? Thanks!

Best,
Yan

[9fans] a simple question

[yan zhao]

Hi, there:

Can someone tell me whether factotum exists on the side of the client or
on the side of server? Thanks!

Best,
Yan