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charset="UTF-8" Lucio, man, you are a comic genius.=20 > On 18. Aug 2021, at 6.55, Lucio De Re wrote: >=20 > You bought the "exceptionalism" Kool-Aid, lock, stock and barrel, > haven't you? It's a question of size: a small code base should remain > small, then it is not weaponisable or monetisable. So we raise the bar > higher and higher and shake off whatever can't stick hard enough. A > human natural instinct (more!, gimme more! features! bugs! anything so > I can have bigger, faster!) bent to the interest of elites (here in > Africa we know it as the Big Man Syndrome). No. Instead, I argue (being involved in OSS and communities for nearly 25 y= ears at this point), diversity builds strength. New tools are always good, = especially when well made and optional. Drop in replacements to standard on= es are amazing and push toward innovation. Overhauls of core functionality = or extending even the kernel [although tricky at times] can lead to massive= leaps in the usefulness of the system. How is Plan 9 different, now that i= t is open source and developed entirely by volunteers? Linux is easy to point to for examples=E2=80=A6 Having mulitiple configurat= ion/boot managers (init, systemd, uselessd, etc.) allows individual distrib= utions (as well as users) make choices about ease vs. cleanliness, kitchen = sink vs. sharp tool. It also puts accountability for the bigger one [system= d] not be as much of a bloated mess as it was a few years back, since more = users =3D more distros =3D more people demanding it not to be an inefficien= t Rube Goldberg machine. And tools die or are replaced over time. 8 1=E2=81=842 was the standard in= Plan 9, but due to it=E2=80=99s limitations and quirks, a new one was writ= ten from scratch. Now we, 30 years later, are arguing that every line of co= de handed down from our honoured and sainted forebears is gospel truth? Rea= lly?=20 Even if we are looking at minimalism, we can have evolution, variety and ch= ange over time. Even beyond suckless.org =E2=80=9Csu= ckless=E2=80=9D tools there are quite a few derivatives that operate on sim= ilar principals. There is a dmenu replacement (rofi) that is a little fatte= r than the base compile, but is actually a cleaner, tighter implementation = if you typically run various patches and adding to dmenu. Is it better? May= be. Its is less minimalist? Not if you frequently add other search patches = to dmenu. Is it a choice? Sure. Will over time one win out over the other? = Who knows.=20 I think what you are confusing is that since I (and many others, whether on= the 9front side or no) want to see Plan 9 evolve and grow, that somehow th= at will ruin *your* Plan 9. That is the same argument political conservativ= es make about all sorts of things about society. They fear change and fear = that any growth, modification, or democratisation of these things will lead= to corruption or degeneration [often seen as =E2=80=9Cdegeneracy=E2=80=9D = in political/societal contexts]. Instead, I argue that you keep 9legacy or = 9miller or whatever you *personally* feel is =E2=80=9Cpure=E2=80=9D and god= ly enough and let people build this. Even in the thread you seem to articul= ate a tension between liking Demetrius=E2=80=99 cool work [or insistence on= other people porting patches for 9legacy for you^H^H^Hthe community in the= past] and wanting a definitive body for absolute blessing of features/code= changes/etc.=20 If Demetrius releases the Oath tool in it=E2=80=99s finished form in the ne= ar feature and it is awesome, need it being included in the default install= of any Plan 9? Could be it a standalone package or patch for some and buil= t into others? Also, what would it *mean* to have an approving body for One= Plan 9. Does that mean that people like cinap, ori, or sigrid [who frequen= tly contribute to 9front as well as releasing independent tools and softwar= e] are beholden to some committee decision? Do you understand how Open Sour= ce works? Accusations of =E2=80=9Cexceptionalism=E2=80=9D are completely unfounded, s= ince I like the idea of people having preferences and different workflows. = acme exists, so should we delete sam? No, cos sam is better for some things= and for some people. Should someone rework sam to not have the annoying do= uble snarf buffer thing [because, as I recall, Rob Pike wanted to hack arou= nd potential lag between the term and a remote sam instance and never went = back to it]? I think probably. The only bias I have is toward newer code, t= o be honest. Not new features, but new takes. New fixes. New implementation= s that allow for flexibility of use that were most likely never conceived o= f initially. The Plan 9 team at Bell Labs (or Lucient) never had a problem = monkeying with the guts of the OS [still sticking to their guns regarding m= inimalist design sensibilities], but now, for whatever reason, that needs t= o be tamped down or highly controlled? Hell, there are cool things I wish were 9front [unless they were snuck in],= like some of sigrid's keyboard system tweaks and theming hacks. Or mycroft= iv=E2=80=99s extra namespace aliasing stuff from ANTS.=20 > Do you have incontrovertible evidence? In my caffeine-deprived state, > I feel you're just following the sheep gospel, no offence intended. In > my opinion, the trap is always there, ready to be deployed. And the > masses are always ready to fall into it. Occasionally a Christ figure > comes along to warn us, but only the elite can understand the message > and of course they then distort it in the direction that suits them > best. And the masses are none the wiser, not this time, not the next > time, not any other time, because the elite can be swapped out > entirely and the new elite becomes them, ad nauseam. Sheep gospel? As opposed to the goats being flung into Hell? Likely this ph= rase is more endemic to your lexical community, but as a native English spe= aker, it=E2=80=99s not clear, so I will first extrapolate what I *think* yo= u mean by =E2=80=9Csheep gospel=E2=80=9D and refute. It seems what you are critiquing [taking into consideration the prior parag= raph you wrote] is that you are critical of my position because you feel th= at me (or others), in some sort of cargo cult mentality, are imposing some = sort of outside hegemony of values [bigger, better, more corporate, more = =E2=80=9Cuser-friendly=E2=80=9D, more commoditatizable]. This is opposed to= the small purity of message of the insular community that exists for this = clearly not mainstream, commodity OS.=20 Ok. Weird.=20 But then the idea is that I or others are putting ourselves as some elite? = What? Not that you know or care, butI=E2=80=99m an anarcho-syndicalist, man= . If me saying I want everyone to having their own power and everyone to ha= ve a voice and that divergent software is =E2=80=9Cvoted upon=E2=80=9D by u= se (rather than mandate by a person or a single committee) is somehow eliti= st and crypotfascist, well, I don=E2=80=99t know what to say.=20 > Sure, and an infinite variety of vehicles with wheels at the four > corners and seats that just occupy space and consume carbon-based > fuels. Even EVs where each wheel could be both motor and power > generator have retained that ridiculous formula. But they look > different (sort of, there's greater difference in time than there in > style). Oh, let's not ignore that autos also sit idle (my estimate) > 95% of their life: is that what they are designed for? And the AI in > my phone, is that also sitting idle? I had a couple of instances > recently where in the middle of the night my password locked Samsung > J5 decided to continue reading me the SF short story collection I > turned off before going to sleep. I am clearly lost here. Yes. There are cars.=20 Not sure what your point is, Lucio, but I will use this as a teaching oppor= tunity.=20 Cars basically have to just replace horse-drawn wagons. Move people. Move s= tuff. Ride on roads. Over the years [excepting for government imposing cert= ain health or safety regulations], the adaptations of the cars have been mo= stly to optimise performance, although a fair bit has also gone to luxury. = Standardization between brands have been by convention/convenience/etc. not= by a committee deciding things. Since it is a physical good, there are cer= tain constraints less applicable than software and since they are commodity= items, made for profit, they are other pressures. But in the end, it was n= ot in the interest of anyone to have one standard. And standards that exist= [fuel types, belt sizes, oil weights, ranges of tire sizes, etc.] are more= like rough agreements to optimise variety with manufacturing costs. Too fe= w options would railroad designs and applications, too many it would not be= viable to manufacture. Even when standards are set, but everyone is open to manufacture, use dicta= tes success. Take the A cell battery. Or the B cell. You can probably sourc= e specialised ones somewhere, but AA and AAA were more useful for smaller d= evices and C & D for larger handheld devices that didn=E2=80=99t need high = output [like a lantern battery]. Funny enough, cars *are* optimised for being idle. It takes a long time for= a battery to go flat from being idle. The outside paint, trim, etc. is des= igned to last relatively well in a variety of climates so that they don=E2= =80=99t always need to be garaged or in a car port. Defrosters/defoggers ar= e there because it is understood the damn thing may be cold with a breathin= g person in it or be frozen over. It kicks on the AC as well, to pull moist= ure out of the air, even if it is warmed immediately after. > But Android is Open Source, isn't it? I can look under the bonned, can't = I? Open Source and Android is debatable. Also Open Source depends on license. = Android=E2=80=99s OS license is not a free license. Even Lucient=E2=80=99s = license was pretty damn free and now it is MIT for Plan 9. We are at this p= oint comparing apples to oranges. > Well, the P9F is what it is. It will also become what it is naturally > attracted to unless some boundaries - Trump's fence? - are put in > place. I argue that from their charter and description, they are there to promote = the technology rather than impose a roadmap or gatekeep. If more people discover Plan 9 and find X and Y distributions more useful t= han Z, then cool.=20 I think part of that mission would be promoting diversity of multiple =E2= =80=9CPlan 9=E2=80=9D OSes and derivatives.=20 > I'm going to leave this here, with a comment to the effect that I > totally disagree with the sentiments. There is room, need is not a > strong enough word for what I'm thinking, for creativity, but software > is not a primordial soup out of which complex organisms will rise to > take over the Universe and consume it out of existence, its and > theirs. Yeah, it pretty much is, except you have humans with cool ideas directing i= t. And with that you promote the humans to do cool stuff with it as they pl= ease. Plan 9 has always been a playground for creating new things and quest= ioning how we can do computing in better ways. > More likely, we'll teach - by example, not intentionally, no - our AI > products to weaponise the tools we are no longer sufficiently > naturally intelligent to understand and control (tell me there's a > difference) and turn us into slaves because, like the human elite, > they will measure their worth in what they can accumulate (human > slaves sounds like a neat currency to me, I could use some, it's > worked in all of human history - ask Epstein), just like their > creators did. What?! How did you get here?! Epstein? Human slaves?=20 > Nothing to do with Plan 9, of course, because it really is just a drop > of accidental sanity in an ocean of greed and competition. But, to > complete the imagery, I'd rather be plankton in a drop of Plan 9 than > a shark in the Linux Ocean. And I am, to the extent that I support and > most of all appreciate what makes my ecosystem continue to tick. > Including any contributions by like-minded or antagonistically natured > geniuses. I instead see Plan 9 as something that can grow to be a mainline developmen= t platform for more users. Not for the masse, per se.=20 It does have some promise for modern grid/distributed computing. Hell, much= of what is in the Linux space in that regard was modelled after it [althou= gh implemented more hamfistedly].=20 I=E2=80=99m not some dumb kid. I am in my 40s and have been in software dev= my entire adult life [and admittedly before that as well]. Even though Pla= n 9 as a legacy artefact handed down from Bell and Lucent is outdated, it h= as so much value [albeit it may be in limited scope compared to Linux, for = example] that can be recovered. I think may of the people who are excited a= bout it see the same thing. And for me, and may other peers here, railroadi= ng into a singular =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D manifestation will do more to= stifle growth, experimentation and creativity than to enrich it. Cheers, -pixelheresy > Lucio. >=20 > PS: I have a lot of time to think and unfortunately not the means to > study beyond a rather narrow subject matter. So my opinions are much > more the result of introspection than of universal knowledge. Take it > for what it is. >=20 > PPS: There is always an elite, its job is to defeat by all means > available a middle class whose "elite nouveau" continually attempts to > replace it, by any means available to it. Everything revolves around > who owns the masses. That's Western Civilisation in a nutshell. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6899bf3f0654295d-M916eb= 14bfc08b38e33e93158 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --Apple-Mail=_426D3997-3624-481E-A057-C73E0661ACE7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Lucio, man, = you are a comic genius. 

On 18. Aug 2021, at 6.55, Lucio De= Re <lucio.dere@gmail= .com> wrote:

You bought the "e= xceptionalism" Kool-Aid, lock, stock and barrel,
haven= 't you? It's a question of size: a small code base should remainsmall, then it is not weaponisable or monetisable. So we rais= e the bar
higher and higher and shake off whatever can'= t stick hard enough. A
human natural instinct (more!, gimme= more! features! bugs! anything so
I can have bigger, faste= r!) bent to the interest of elites (here in
Africa we know = it as the Big Man Syndrome).

= No. Instead, I argue (being involved in OSS and communities for nearly 25 y= ears at this point), diversity builds strength. New tools are always good, = especially when well made and optional. Drop in replacements to standard on= es are amazing and push toward innovation. Overhauls of core functionality = or extending even the kernel [although tricky at times] can lead to ma= ssive leaps in the usefulness of the system. How is Plan 9 different, now t= hat it is open source and developed entirely by volunteers?

Linux is easy to point to for examples… = Having mulitiple configuration/boot managers (init, systemd, uselessd,= etc.) allows individual distributions (as well as users) make choices abou= t ease vs. cleanliness, kitchen sink vs. sharp tool. It also puts acco= untability for the bigger one [systemd] not be as much of a bloated mess as= it was a few years back, since more users =3D more distros =3D more p= eople demanding it not to be an inefficient Rube Goldberg machine.

And tools die or are replaced over time.  8 1⁄2 was the standard in Plan 9, but due to it’s= limitations and quirks, a new one was written from scratch. Now = we, 30 years later, are arguing that every line of code handed down from ou= r honoured and sainted forebears is gospel truth? Really? 

Ev= en if we are looking at minimalism, we can have evolution, variety and chan= ge over time. Even beyond suckle= ss.org “suckless” tools there are quite a few derivatives t= hat operate on similar principals. There is a dmenu replacement (rofi) that= is a little fatter than the base compile, but is actually a cleaner, tight= er implementation if you typically run various patches and adding to dmenu.= Is it better? Maybe. Its is less minimalist? Not if you frequently add oth= er search patches to dmenu. Is it a choice? Sure. Will over time one win ou= t over the other? Who knows. 

I think what you are confusing is that since I (and man= y others, whether on the 9front side or no) want to see Plan 9 evolve and g= row, that somehow that will ruin *your* Plan 9. That is the same argument p= olitical conservatives make about all sorts of things about society. They f= ear change and fear that any growth, modification, or democratisation of th= ese things will lead to corruption or degeneration [often seen as “de= generacy” in political/societal contexts]. Instead, I argue that you = keep 9legacy or 9miller or whatever you *personally* feel is “pure&rd= quo; and godly enough and let people build this. Even in the thread you see= m to articulate a tension between liking Demetrius’ cool work [or ins= istence on other people porting patches for 9legacy for you^H^H^Hthe commun= ity in the past] and wanting a definitive body for absolute blessing of fea= tures/code changes/etc. 

<= div class=3D"">If Demetrius releases the Oath tool in it’s finished f= orm in the near feature and it is awesome, need it being included in the de= fault install of any Plan 9? Could be it a standalone package or patch for = some and built into others? Also, what would it *mean* to have an approving= body for One Plan 9. Does that mean that people like cinap, ori, or sigrid= [who frequently contribute to 9front as well as releasing independent tool= s and software] are beholden to some committee decision? Do you understand = how Open Source works?

Accusations of “exceptionalism” are completely unfounde= d, since I like the idea of people having preferences and different workflo= ws. acme exists, so should we delete sam? No, cos sam is better for some th= ings and for some people. Should someone rework sam to not have the annoyin= g double snarf buffer thing [because, as I recall, Rob Pike wanted to hack = around potential lag between the term and a remote sam instance and never w= ent back to it]? I think probably. The only bias I have is toward newer cod= e, to be honest. Not new features, but new takes. New fixes. New implementa= tions that allow for flexibility of use that were most likely never conceiv= ed of initially. The Plan 9 team at Bell Labs (or Lucient) never had a prob= lem monkeying with the guts of the OS [still sticking to their guns regardi= ng minimalist design sensibilities], but now, for whatever reason, that nee= ds to be tamped down or highly controlled?

Hell, there are cool things I wish were 9fron= t [unless they were snuck in], like some of sigrid's keyboard system tw= eaks and theming hacks. Or mycroftiv’s extra namespace aliasing stuff= from ANTS. 

Do you have incontrovertible eviden= ce? In my caffeine-deprived state,
I feel you're just f= ollowing the sheep gospel, no offence intended. In
my opini= on, the trap is always there, ready to be deployed. And the
masses are always ready to fall into it. Occasionally a Christ figure
comes along to warn us, but only the elite can understand the m= essage
and of course they then distort it in the direction = that suits them
best. And the masses are none the wiser, no= t this time, not the next
time, not any other time, because= the elite can be swapped out
entirely and the new elite be= comes them, ad nauseam.

Sheep gospel? As opposed to the goats bein= g flung into Hell? Likely this phrase is more endemic to your lexical commu= nity, but as a native English speaker, it’s not clear, so I will firs= t extrapolate what I *think* you mean by “sheep gospel” and ref= ute.

It seems w= hat you are critiquing [taking into consideration the prior paragraph you w= rote] is that you are critical of my position because you feel that me (or = others), in some sort of cargo cult mentality, are imposing some sort of ou= tside hegemony of values [bigger, better, more corporate, more “user-= friendly”, more commoditatizable]. This is opposed to the small purit= y of message of the insular community that exists for this clearly not main= stream, commodity OS. 

Ok. Weird. 

<= div class=3D"">But then the idea is that I or others are putting ourselves = as some elite? What? Not that you know or care, butI’m an anarcho-syn= dicalist, man. If me saying I want everyone to having their own power and e= veryone to have a voice and that divergent software is “voted upon&rd= quo; by use (rather than mandate by a person or a single committee) is some= how elitist and crypotfascist, well, I don’t know what to say. <= /div>
Sure, and an inf= inite variety of vehicles with wheels at the four
corners a= nd seats that just occupy space and consume carbon-based
fu= els. Even EVs where each wheel could be both motor and power
generator have retained that ridiculous formula. But they look
different (sort of, there's greater difference in time than the= re in
style). Oh, let's not ignore that autos also sit = idle (my estimate)
95% of their life: is that what they are= designed for? And the AI in
my phone, is that also sitting= idle? I had a couple of instances
recently where in the mi= ddle of the night my password locked Samsung
J5 decided to = continue reading me the SF short story collection I
turned = off before going to sleep.
I am clearly lost here. Yes. There are = cars. 

Not= sure what your point is, Lucio, but I will use this as a teaching opportun= ity. 

Cars= basically have to just replace horse-drawn wagons. Move people. Move stuff= . Ride on roads. Over the years [excepting for government imposing certain = health or safety regulations], the adaptations of the cars have been mostly= to optimise performance, although a fair bit has also gone to luxury. Stan= dardization between brands have been by convention/convenience/etc. not by = a committee deciding things. Since it is a physical good, there are certain= constraints less applicable than software and since they are commodity ite= ms, made for profit, they are other pressures. But in the end, it was not i= n the interest of anyone to have one standard. And standards that exist [fu= el types, belt sizes, oil weights, ranges of tire sizes, etc.] are more lik= e rough agreements to optimise variety with manufacturing costs. Too few op= tions would railroad designs and applications, too many it would not be via= ble to manufacture.

Even when standards are set, but everyone is open to manufacture, use= dictates success. Take the A cell battery. Or the B cell. You can probably= source specialised ones somewhere, but AA and AAA were more useful for sma= ller devices and C & D for larger handheld devices that didn’t ne= ed high output [like a lantern battery].

Funny enough, cars *are* optimised for being idle= . It takes a long time for a battery to go flat from being idle. The outsid= e paint, trim, etc. is designed to last relatively well in a variety of cli= mates so that they don’t always need to be garaged or in a car port. = Defrosters/defoggers are there because it is understood the damn thing may = be cold with a breathing person in it or be frozen over. It kicks on the AC= as well, to pull moisture out of the air, even if it is warmed immediately= after.

But Android is Open Source, isn't it? I can look under th= e bonned, can't I?

Open Source and Android is debatable. Also Open Source depe= nds on license. Android’s OS license is not a free license. Even Luci= ent’s license was pretty damn free and now it is MIT for Plan 9. We a= re at this point comparing apples to oranges.

Well, the P9F is what it is. It wi= ll also become what it is naturally
attracted to unless som= e boundaries - Trump's fence? - are put in
place.

I argue that from their charter and description, they are there to pr= omote the technology rather than impose a roadmap or gatekeep.

If more people discover Pla= n 9 and find X and Y distributions more useful than Z, then cool. 

I think part of th= at mission would be promoting diversity of multiple “Plan 9” OS= es and derivatives. 

I'm going to leave this here, with a comment to the effect th= at I
totally disagree with the sentiments. There is room, n= eed is not a
strong enough word for what I'm thinking, = for creativity, but software
is not a primordial soup out o= f which complex organisms will rise to
take over the Univer= se and consume it out of existence, its and
theirs.

Yeah, it pretty much is, except you have humans with cool ideas directing= it. And with that you promote the humans to do cool stuff with it as they = please. Plan 9 has always been a playground for creating new things and que= stioning how we can do computing in better ways.

More likely, we'll teach - by example,= not intentionally, no - our AI
products to weaponise the t= ools we are no longer sufficiently
naturally intelligent to= understand and control (tell me there's a
difference) = and turn us into slaves because, like the human elite,
they= will measure their worth in what they can accumulate (human
slaves sounds like a neat currency to me, I could use some, it's
worked in all of human history - ask Epstein), just like their<= br class=3D"" />creators did.
=
What?! How did you get here?! Epstei= n? Human slaves? 

Nothing to do with Plan 9, of course, because = it really is just a drop
of accidental sanity in an ocean o= f greed and competition. But, to
complete the imagery, I= 9;d rather be plankton in a drop of Plan 9 than
a shark in = the Linux Ocean. And I am, to the extent that I support and
most of all appreciate what makes my ecosystem continue to tick.
Including any contributions by like-minded or antagonistically natu= red
geniuses.
=
I instead see Plan 9 as something th= at can grow to be a mainline development platform for more users. Not for t= he masse, per se. 

It does have some promise for modern grid/distributed computing. H= ell, much of what is in the Linux space in that regard was modelled after i= t [although implemented more hamfistedly]. 

I’m not some dumb kid. I am in my 4= 0s and have been in software dev my entire adult life [and admittedly befor= e that as well]. Even though Plan 9 as a legacy artefact handed down from B= ell and Lucent is outdated, it has so much value [albeit it may be in limit= ed scope compared to Linux, for example] that can be recovered. I think may= of the people who are excited about it see the same thing. And for me, and= may other peers here, railroading into a singular “official” m= anifestation will do more to stifle growth, experimentation and creativity = than to enrich it.

Cheers,

-= pixelheresy


Lucio.

= PS: I have a lot of time to think and unfortunately not the means to
study beyond a rather narrow subject matter. So my opinions are m= uch
more the result of introspection than of universal know= ledge. Take it
for what it is.

PPS: There is always an elite, its job is to defeat by all means
available a middle class whose "elite nouveau" continu= ally attempts to
replace it, by any means available to it. = Everything revolves around
who owns the masses. That's = Western Civilisation in a nutshell.

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