[9fans] Plan-9 is too archic. ... yet.

[9fans] Plan-9 is too archic. ... yet.

[Alt]

Hello, all.
I have read an article about Plan-9 in one local weakly journal.
Yes, it is that which I look for, some times ago.

But ... it's do not allow my requairements, at the moment.

Plan-9 is olded ! :(
I feels sorry, that haven't find it few years ago. :(

What I would like to see ?
1. Absolutely new User Interface.
2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
technology.
4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.

Many other things which about I criticized UNIX, yet done in Plan-9.


--the Alternative.

email: alter@cybercafe.com.ua
tel.:  (in Kyiv/Ukraine)550-8285(Misha) (I speak english not so good, I prefer Ukrainian :)

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archic. ... yet.

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

Alt wrote:
> What I would like to see ?
> 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
> 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
> 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
> technology.
> 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.

Feel free to implement these yourself.

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archic. ... yet.

[Alt]

Douglas A. Gwyn wrote:

>

>
>  Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ oh-ho

Pardon me, but are you sure, that you
follow the restrictions, lied by Plan9's license ?

> Alt wrote:

> > What I would like to see ?
> > 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
> > 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
> > 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
> > technology.
> > 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.
>
> Feel free to implement these yourself.

Thank you so much.
How, I haven't understood that I can implement it ? :)

Between, what are you mean, under your phrase ?
1. I can implement it with a Plan9.
2. "Don't .Luck my/our brains, with your ..."
3. If I need it have to do it.
4. Anything else.

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archic. ... yet.

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

Alt wrote:
> Douglas A. Gwyn wrote:
> >  Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ oh-ho
> Pardon me, but are you sure, that you
> follow the restrictions, lied by Plan9's license ?

Yes, asshole.

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archic. ... yet.

[Wladimir Mutel]

Alt <alter@cybercafe.com.ua> wrote:

> But ... it's do not allow my requairements, at the moment.

	Yes, exactly, you want from this OS to give you something it never
	promised to have.

> Plan-9 is olded ! :(

	'Obsolete', you mean ? Not more obsolete than Unix is.
	Use NT if you eager for smth 'New' :>

> I feels sorry, that haven't find it few years ago. :(

> What I would like to see ?
> 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
> 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
> 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
> technology.
> 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.

	Brrrr... Why do you suspect Plan9 to provide you with this ?
	You should create all this by yourself under any OS.
	Or you may switch to any OS that has these facilities now.

> Many other things which about I criticized UNIX, yet done in Plan-9.

	Plan9 is not 'better Unix', as FAQ reads.
	Its architecture and facilities implied by one yet have to be
	researched by you. Somewhere it is completely non-UNIX (and of
	course it does not give you topics 1..4 right out of the box) !

	(p.s. - and learn English better, please :>)

--
mwg@alkar.net, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 - Владимир Мутель

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archaic. ... yet.

[Alt]

Wladimir Mutel wrote:

> Alt <alter@cybercafe.com.ua> wrote:
>
> > But ... it's do not allow my requairements, at the moment.
>
>         Yes, exactly, you want from this OS to give you something it never
>         promised to have.

No, look but until I have read an article about Plan-9
(http:/www.itc.kiev.ua/ko)
(note: it's in Russian :( )
I I thought that nobody try to seriously step over UNIX concepts.
(Actually all modern OS it's a UNIX but more or less distorted :)
But I find out that there is the Plan-9 where no stupid libraries.
Where any application could be activized though its STDIN,
where no stupid overlapped protocols. Where, where, where.
... I told I is that which I been looking for.
However, Plan-9 have UNIX-like user interface.
With all of it's faults and preferences.
Plan-9 got too mach from UNIX. :(
As for end of 80'th Plan-9 was really revolutionary,
as vor today not so.

I hope this time I wrote clear.

>
>
> > Plan-9 is olded ! :(
>
>         'Obsolete', you mean ?

Yes. Exactly.
May be you didn't know but in Kyiv is a very strange dialect of English. :)))

> Not more obsolete than Unix is.

Yes.
I like to say that better not is the best.

>
>         Use NT if you eager for smth 'New' :>
>

8-P

>
> > I feels sorry, that haven't find it few years ago. :(
>
> > What I would like to see ?
> > 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
> > 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
> > 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
> > technology.
> > 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.
>
>         Brrrr... Why do you suspect Plan9 to provide you with this ?

Perhaps you don't understood what was caused me to write first article,
I think I have explain it above.

>
>         You should create all this by yourself under any OS.

No, UNIX ideology restrict me.

>
>         Or you may switch to any OS that has these facilities now.
>
> > Many other things which about I criticized UNIX, yet done in Plan-9.
>
>         Plan9 is not 'better Unix', as FAQ reads.
>         Its architecture and facilities implied by one yet have to be
>         researched by you. Somewhere it is completely non-UNIX (and of
>         course it does not give you topics 1..4 right out of the box) !
>
>         (p.s. - and learn English better, please :>)
>

Oh, sthanx for advice, so-o-o-o much :),
same you.... ;-/>
the words is not a language yet.

>
> --
> mwg@alkar.net, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 - Владимир Мутель

Where are you from ?

(Kyiv)550-8285(Misha)

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archaic. ... yet.

[Wladimir Mutel]

Alt <alter@cybercafe.com.ua> wrote:

> However, Plan-9 have UNIX-like user interface.

	Where ? In command-line level - perhaps.
	Hope, you do not mean 'acme' or 'plumbing' 
	ideas are Unix-like ? :>

> As for end of 80'th Plan-9 was really revolutionary,
> as vor today not so.

	What OS is enough revolutionary for you today ? :>

> I hope this time I wrote clear.

	Yes. You see benefits of new OS architecture, but the things you
	want to build on its basis seem to be dictated by your needs
	arisen in traditional OS.

>> Not more obsolete than Unix is.

> Yes.
> I like to say that better not is the best.

	Love what you have, if you do not have what you better love.

>> > What I would like to see ?
>> > 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
>> > 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
>> > 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
>> > technology.
>> > 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.
>>
>>         Brrrr... Why do you suspect Plan9 to provide you with this ?

> Perhaps you don't understood what was caused me to write first article,
> I think I have explain it above.

	But why do you dream to see features 1..4 under the very Plan9, 
		not under another OS ?

>>         You should create all this by yourself under any OS.

> No, UNIX ideology restrict me.

	In what ways ? It seems to me that is not Unix ideology's fault,
	but mostly your one. It seems you do not have exact notion of what
	you want. Did you ever try to develop 1..4 by yourself ? Or at
	least to design them technically, to some implementation-permitting
	level ?

> Where are you from ?

	Dnepr ! :>

--
mwg@alkar.net, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 - Владимир Мутель

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archaic. ... yet.

[Alt]

Wladimir Mutel wrote:

> Alt <alter@cybercafe.com.ua> wrote:
>
> > However, Plan-9 have UNIX-like user interface.
>
>         Where ? In command-line level - perhaps.

Yes.
Why I have to write echo "reboot" > reboot ?
I prefer to write
this.reboot = reboot


>
>         Hope, you do not mean 'acme' or 'plumbing'
>         ideas are Unix-like ? :>

It is very small step.

>
>
> > As for end of 80'th Plan-9 was really revolutionary,
> > as vor today not so.
>
>         What OS is enough revolutionary for you today ? :>
>

No one.

>
> > I hope this time I wrote clear.
>
>         Yes. You see benefits of new OS architecture, but the things you
>         want to build on its basis seem to be dictated by your needs
>         arisen in traditional OS.
>

Something like this. :)

>
> >> Not more obsolete than Unix is.
>
> > Yes.
> > I like to say that better not is the best.
>
>         Love what you have, if you do not have what you better love.
>

Almost the Bible.

>
> >> > What I would like to see ?
> >> > 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
> >> > 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
> >> > 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
> >> > technology.
> >> > 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.
> >>
> >>         Brrrr... Why do you suspect Plan9 to provide you with this ?
>
> > Perhaps you don't understood what was caused me to write first article,
> > I think I have explain it above.
>
>         But why do you dream to see features 1..4 under the very Plan9,
>                 not under another OS ?
>

UNIX is not an OS yet, it's un ideology.
and I view at the Plan9 as a pretender to be a ground of the new ideology.

>
> >>         You should create all this by yourself under any OS.
>
> > No, UNIX ideology restrict me.
>
>         In what ways ? It seems to me that is not Unix ideology's fault,
>         but mostly your one. It seems you do not have exact notion of what
>         you want. Did you ever try to develop 1..4 by yourself ? Or at
>         least to design them technically, to some implementation-permitting
>         level ?
>

Did.
And I working at the new OS yet.

>
> > Where are you from ?
>
>         Dnepr ! :>
>

Oh, the Dnepropetrovsk.
I see.
It's where from Lasarenko and Kutchma came. :(

>
> --
> mwg@alkar.net, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 - Владимир Мутель

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archaic. ... yet.

[Wladimir Mutel]

Alt <alter@cybercafe.com.ua> wrote:

>> > However, Plan-9 have UNIX-like user interface.

>>         Where ? In command-line level - perhaps.

> Yes.
> Why I have to write echo "reboot" > reboot ?
> I prefer to write
> this.reboot = reboot

	Plan9 had not yet accumulated enough complicacy to manage it by C++
	or other OO- means. I was wondering too why there is no C++ in Plan9 
	base. I realized gradually that with low and well-organized Plan9 
	complexity, plain C is enough for it, just like it was for Unix at 
	the beginning.

>>         Hope, you do not mean 'acme' or 'plumbing'
>>         ideas are Unix-like ? :>

> It is very small step.

	Too large steps may be destructive too.

>> >> > What I would like to see ?
>> >> > 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
>> >> > 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
>> >> > 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
>> >> > technology.
>> >> > 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.

> UNIX is not an OS yet, it's un ideology.
> and I view at the Plan9 as a pretender to be a ground of the new ideology.

	Yes Plan9 is revolutionary in ideology. But not in aspects 1..4 you
	would like to see there.

--
mwg@alkar.net, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 - Владимир Мутель

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archaic. ... yet.

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

Alt wrote:
> Why I have to write echo "reboot" > reboot ?
> I prefer to write
> this.reboot = reboot

The syntax of a command interpreter is up to the designer
of the command interpreter.  "rc" uses syntax similar to
that of the long-established UNIX shell syntax for most
of the common operations, in order to leverage existing
user experience.  If you want different syntax, create a
command interpreter for it; Plan 9 (and UNIX) support
this.  Designing a nice, regular syntax with sufficient
generality is not as easy as you seem to think.

It is easy to complain; it is harder to be helpful.

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archaic. ... yet.

[Alt]

Douglas A. Gwyn wrote:

> Alt wrote:
> > Why I have to write echo "reboot" > reboot ?
> > I prefer to write
> > this.reboot = reboot
>
> The syntax of a command interpreter is up to the designer
> of the command interpreter.  "rc" uses syntax similar to
> that of the long-established UNIX shell syntax for most
> of the common operations, in order to leverage existing
> user experience.  If you want different syntax, create a
> command interpreter for it; Plan 9 (and UNIX) support
> this.  Designing a nice, regular syntax with sufficient
> generality is not as easy as you seem to think.
>
> It is easy to complain; it is harder to be helpful.

Yes. Indeed. But, sorry if I am wrong, I think that I can help people
though my critics.
There was a lot of cases when people hate me for my critic, and then
done as I told.

About UI I mean different.
"this.reboot" is an address. "reboot" is a message.
It's not a command. I just try to picture new conception of UI.

--the Alternative

Good bye.

P.S. Give me few months...

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archic. ... yet.

[Artem 'Thomas' Hlushko]

hi!

Alt <alter@cybercafe.com.ua> wrote:

> But ... it's do not allow my requairements, at the moment.
it's designed not for your requairements

> Plan-9 is olded ! :(
write something new
> I feels sorry, that haven't find it few years ago. :(

> What I would like to see ?
> 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
> 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
> 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
> technology.
> 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.
do you think 9fans will materialize your drug dreams?
relax

> Many other things which about I criticized UNIX, yet done in Plan-9.
it's easy critisize...
show your stuff

bye

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archic. ... yet.

[Alt]

Artem 'Thomas' Hlushko wrote:

> hi!
>
> Alt <alter@cybercafe.com.ua> wrote:
>
> > But ... it's do not allow my requairements, at the moment.
> it's designed not for your requairements
>

>

What is my requirements ?

>

> > Plan-9 is olded ! :(
> write something new
> > I feels sorry, that haven't find it few years ago. :(
>
> > What I would like to see ?
> > 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
> > 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
> > 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
> > technology.
> > 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.
> do you think 9fans will materialize your drug dreams?
> relax
>

Your opinion is your opinion.
Please, "don't answer" for me and for "9fans".

>
> > Many other things which about I criticized UNIX, yet done in Plan-9.
> it's easy critisize...

What is difficult ? to "dati wiedpavine darutchnya" ?

>
> show your stuff
>
> bye

I woobstche P.N.H.
Ya eto pisal ne dlya tebya.

Do, you know, why I hate this country,
because there is a lot of people like you.

Do you know why I quite from the K.P.I. ,
because there is a lot professors like you are!

And I don't want to live between such men, as you are.

>

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archic. ... yet.

[Wladimir Mutel]

Alt <alter@cybercafe.com.ua> wrote:

>> > But ... it's do not allow my requairements, at the moment.
>> it's designed not for your requairements

> What is my requirements ?

	They seem to be your famous topics 1..4 you expected to see
	in Plan9.

>> > 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
>> > 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
>> > 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
>> > technology.
>> > 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.

>> > Many other things which about I criticized UNIX, yet done in Plan-9.
>> it's easy critisize...

> Do, you know, why I hate this country,
> because there is a lot of people like you.

> Do you know why I quite from the K.P.I. ,
> because there is a lot professors like you are!

> And I don't want to live between such men, as you are.

	And it is even easier to hate, than to criticize.
	
	The country, the university and the people - 
	are they definitely bad, you think ?

--
mwg@alkar.net, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 - Владимир Мутель

[9fans] Re: Plan-9 is too archic. ... yet.

[Alt]

Wladimir Mutel wrote:

> Alt <alter@cybercafe.com.ua> wrote:
>
> >> > But ... it's do not allow my requairements, at the moment.
> >> it's designed not for your requairements
>
> > What is my requirements ?
>
>         They seem to be your famous topics 1..4 you expected to see
>         in Plan9.
>

Oh, may be it was seems like this.
But I mean something wider.

>
> >> > 1. Absolutely new User Interface.
> >> > 2. Multidimensional information resources (files) system.
> >> > 3. New World-Wide (Global) information storage, and its search
> >> > technology.
> >> > 4. Technologies of dynamic recompilation of code.
>
> >> > Many other things which about I criticized UNIX, yet done in Plan-9.
> >> it's easy critisize...
>
> > Do, you know, why I hate this country,
> > because there is a lot of people like you.
>
> > Do you know why I quite from the K.P.I. ,
> > because there is a lot professors like you are!
>
> > And I don't want to live between such men, as you are.
>
>         And it is even easier to hate, than to criticize.
>

What do I have to do ?
Looks like we have to move in ukr.politics or in soc.culture.ukrainian.

>
>         The country, the university and the people -
>         are they definitely bad, you think ?
>

How I can respect the peoples. Who say "yes" on the referendum
for the items which they don't know what is it.
And who vote for the president who say:
"I was a bad president but I will be good when you'll elect me again."
Absurd !

If you w'd like to answer for this item do it in soc.cultre.ukrasinian

About high education....
I have seen am _obsolete_ robots, machine tools, and equipment there ...
I saw crazy old professors.
I saw the bribe flows.
But nothing modern !!!


>
> --
> mwg@alkar.net, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 - Владимир Мутель