* [9fans] struct problems
@ 2003-05-07 4:36 Christopher Nielsen
2003-05-07 5:34 ` Christopher Nielsen
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Nielsen @ 2003-05-07 4:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I've been working on 48-bit LBA support for ATA, and
I've run into something peculiar. I decided to rewrite
the identify array as a struct of bit fields for better
readability. As it turns out, the struct is 16 bytes
bigger than expected, which is causing all sorts of
trouble with accessing the fields properly. I am pretty
sure I copied all the fields correctly; the struct
should be 512 bytes, but it's 528 bytes. Below is the
struct definition for folks to look at. I am in the
process of rooting out where the extra bytes are
coming from, but if someone can provide some insight,
it would save me some time.
typedef struct Params {
/*000*/ union {
ushort config;
ushort pktsz:2; /* packet command size */
ushort incomplete:1;
ushort :2;
ushort drq:2; /* DRQ type */
ushort removable:1; /* device is removable */
ushort type:5; /* device type */
ushort :2;
ushort proto:1; /* command protocol */
};
/*001*/ ushort lcyl; /* logical cylinders */
ushort reserved2;
/*003*/ ushort lhead; /* logical heads */
ushort obsolete4;
ushort obsolete5;
/*006*/ ushort lsec; /* logical sectors */
ushort reserved7;
ushort reserved8;
ushort retired9;
/*010*/ uchar serial[20]; /* serial number */
ushort retired20;
ushort retired21;
ushort obsolete22;
/*023*/ uchar firmware[8]; /* firmware revision */
/*027*/ uchar model[40]; /* model name */
/*047*/ ushort maxrwm:8; /* max. read/write multiple sectors */
ushort :8;
ushort reserved48;
/*049*/ union {
ushort capabilities;
ushort retired49:8;
ushort dma:1; /* DMA supported */
ushort lba:1; /* LBA supported */
ushort noiordy:1; /* IORDY may be disabled */
ushort iordy:1; /* IORDY supported */
ushort softrst:1; /* needs soft reset when bsy */
ushort stdby:1; /* standby supported */
ushort queueing:1; /* queueing overlap supported */
ushort idma:1; /* interleaved DMA supported */
};
/*050*/ ushort stdbymin:1;
ushort :13;
ushort cap1:1;
ushort cap0:1;
ushort retired51;
ushort retired52;
/*053*/ ushort valid;
/*054*/ ushort ccyl;
/*055*/ ushort chead;
/*056*/ ushort csec;
/*057*/ ushort cap;
ushort obsolete58;
/*059*/ ushort mstc:8; /* number of sectors ready for transfer */
ushort mstvalid:1; /* multi-sector transfer enabled */
ushort :7;
/*060-061*/ ushort lba0; /* LBA size */
ushort lba1; /* LBA size */
ushort obsolete62;
/*063*/ ushort mwdma; /* multiword DMA mode */
/*064*/ ushort apio; /* advanced PIO mode */
/*065*/ ushort minmwdma; /* min. multiword DMA cycle time */
/*066*/ ushort recmwdma; /* rec. multiword DMA cycle time */
/*067*/ ushort minpio; /* min. PIO cycle w/o flow control */
/*068*/ ushort miniordy; /* min. PIO cycle with IORDY */
ushort reserved69;
ushort reserved70;
/*071*/ ushort pktbr; /* time from PACKET to bus release */
/*072*/ ushort svcbsy; /* time for SERVICE to !bsy */
ushort reserved73;
ushort reserved74;
/*075*/ ushort qdepth:5; /* max. queue depth */
ushort :11;
ushort reserved76;
ushort reserved77;
ushort reserved78;
ushort reserved79;
/*080*/ ushort major; /* major version number */
/*081*/ ushort minor; /* minor version number */
/*082-084/085-087*/ struct {
ushort smart:1;
ushort security:1;
ushort removable:1;
ushort pwrmgmt:1;
ushort pkt:1;
ushort wcache:1;
ushort lookahead:1;
ushort relirq:1;
ushort svcirq:1;
ushort reset:1;
ushort protected:1;
ushort :1;
ushort wbuf:1;
ushort rbuf:1;
ushort nop:1;
ushort :1;
ushort microcode:1;
ushort queued:1;
ushort cfa:1;
ushort apm:1;
ushort notify:1;
ushort standby:1;
ushort spinup:1;
ushort :1;
ushort maxsec:1;
ushort autoacoustic:1;
ushort addr48:1;
ushort devconfov:1;
ushort flush:1;
ushort flush48:1;
ushort support1:1;
ushort support0:1;
ushort smarterror:1;
ushort smartselftest:1;
ushort mserial:1;
ushort mpassthrough:1;
ushort :1;
ushort logging:1;
ushort :8;
ushort supportext1:1;
ushort supportext0:1;
} supported, enabled;
/*088*/ ushort udma; /* ultra DMA mode */
/*089*/ ushort erase; /* time for security erase */
/*090*/ ushort eerase; /* time for enhanced security erase */
/*091*/ ushort power; /* current advanced power management */
/*092*/ ushort mpwrev; /* master password revision */
/*093*/ ushort hwres; /* hardware config test results */
/*094*/ ushort acoustic; /* current automatic acoustic management */
ushort reserved95;
ushort reserved96;
ushort reserved97;
ushort reserved98;
ushort reserved99;
/* 100-103 */ ushort lbaext0; /* 48-bit LBA size */
ushort lbaext1; /* 48-bit LBA size */
ushort lbaext2; /* 48-bit LBA size */
ushort lbaext3; /* 48-bit LBA size */
ushort reserved104[23];
/*127*/ ushort remstat; /* removable media status */
/*128*/ ushort secstat; /* security status */
ushort reserved129[31];
/*160*/ ushort cfapwr; /* CFA power mode */
ushort reserved161[14];
/*176*/ ushort mediaserial[30]; /* current media serial number */
ushort reserved206[49];
/*255*/ ushort chksum;
} Params;
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-07 4:36 [9fans] struct problems Christopher Nielsen
@ 2003-05-07 5:34 ` Christopher Nielsen
2003-05-07 5:36 ` Nigel Roles
2003-05-07 7:32 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-07 15:47 ` [9fans] acme/sam problem ron minnich
2 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Nielsen @ 2003-05-07 5:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I forgot to add that my guess as to what is happening
is due to alignment issues.
On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 09:36:33PM -0700, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
> I've been working on 48-bit LBA support for ATA, and
> I've run into something peculiar. I decided to rewrite
> the identify array as a struct of bit fields for better
> readability. As it turns out, the struct is 16 bytes
> bigger than expected, which is causing all sorts of
> trouble with accessing the fields properly. I am pretty
> sure I copied all the fields correctly; the struct
> should be 512 bytes, but it's 528 bytes. Below is the
> struct definition for folks to look at. I am in the
> process of rooting out where the extra bytes are
> coming from, but if someone can provide some insight,
> it would save me some time.
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* RE: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-07 5:34 ` Christopher Nielsen
@ 2003-05-07 5:36 ` Nigel Roles
2003-05-07 5:41 ` Christopher Nielsen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Nigel Roles @ 2003-05-07 5:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
structs and unions are aligned on 4 byte boundaries.
bit fields are never portable. are you sure they will
work on any Plan 9 platform (not just x86)?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu]On Behalf
> Of Christopher Nielsen
> Sent: 07 May 2003 06:34
> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> Subject: Re: [9fans] struct problems
>
>
> I forgot to add that my guess as to what is happening
> is due to alignment issues.
>
> On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 09:36:33PM -0700, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
> > I've been working on 48-bit LBA support for ATA, and
> > I've run into something peculiar. I decided to rewrite
> > the identify array as a struct of bit fields for better
> > readability. As it turns out, the struct is 16 bytes
> > bigger than expected, which is causing all sorts of
> > trouble with accessing the fields properly. I am pretty
> > sure I copied all the fields correctly; the struct
> > should be 512 bytes, but it's 528 bytes. Below is the
> > struct definition for folks to look at. I am in the
> > process of rooting out where the extra bytes are
> > coming from, but if someone can provide some insight,
> > it would save me some time.
>
> --
> Christopher Nielsen
> "They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
> safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-07 5:36 ` Nigel Roles
@ 2003-05-07 5:41 ` Christopher Nielsen
2003-05-08 7:30 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Nielsen @ 2003-05-07 5:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Doh! I should know that bit fields aren't portable.
No, I'm not sure; in fact, I'm pretty sure they won't
work across platforms. I didn't think about that. I'll
come up with a different method that _is_ portable.
Thanks.
On Wed, May 07, 2003 at 06:36:51AM +0100, Nigel Roles wrote:
> structs and unions are aligned on 4 byte boundaries.
> bit fields are never portable. are you sure they will
> work on any Plan 9 platform (not just x86)?
--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-07 4:36 [9fans] struct problems Christopher Nielsen
2003-05-07 5:34 ` Christopher Nielsen
@ 2003-05-07 7:32 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-07 11:05 ` Bruce Ellis
2003-05-07 15:47 ` [9fans] acme/sam problem ron minnich
2 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: northern snowfall @ 2003-05-07 7:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Structures are aligned to the underlying platform's
specifications which may cause problems if you
expect raw data to align to your C structure bit-
for-bit: it won't happen. IIRC, this is the reason
why plan9 code uses the convX2Y() functions,
making sure data represented in a struct is
represented properly by the underlying architecture.
Some people go the B route and use uchar[] for
every structure member, which causes more CPU
cycles later when analyzing data. In my experience
it's just better to parse the raw data into the specific
structure using a conversion routine, possibly
inlined. Bitfields will only augment this issue in
your code and decrease portability.
Don
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-07 7:32 ` northern snowfall
@ 2003-05-07 11:05 ` Bruce Ellis
2003-05-07 13:06 ` northern snowfall
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Ellis @ 2003-05-07 11:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
what other justification for #pragma hjdicks
can you think of?
----- Original Message -----
From: "northern snowfall" <dbailey27@ameritech.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] struct problems
> Structures are aligned to the underlying platform's
> specifications which may cause problems if you
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-07 13:06 ` northern snowfall
@ 2003-05-07 12:47 ` Bruce Ellis
2003-05-07 13:50 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-07 17:01 ` [9fans] snapshots -> archives rog
0 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Ellis @ 2003-05-07 12:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
pragmatism and a silly discussion over dinner.
hj were dicks for assuming that they could
lay out structs in an architecture independant way.
we had to live with it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "northern snowfall" <dbailey27@ameritech.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] struct problems
> Bruce Ellis wrote:
>
> >what other justification for #pragma hjdicks
> >can you think of?
> >
> Extreme intoxication?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-07 11:05 ` Bruce Ellis
@ 2003-05-07 13:06 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-07 12:47 ` Bruce Ellis
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: northern snowfall @ 2003-05-07 13:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Bruce Ellis wrote:
>what other justification for #pragma hjdicks
>can you think of?
>
Extreme intoxication?
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-07 12:47 ` Bruce Ellis
@ 2003-05-07 13:50 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-07 17:01 ` [9fans] snapshots -> archives rog
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: northern snowfall @ 2003-05-07 13:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Bruce Ellis wrote:
>pragmatism and a silly discussion over dinner.
>hj were dicks for assuming that they could
>lay out structs in an architecture independant way.
>we had to live with it.
>
Hey, I never said I *liked* the idea... :) but, thats how
it is...
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* [9fans] acme/sam problem
2003-05-07 4:36 [9fans] struct problems Christopher Nielsen
2003-05-07 5:34 ` Christopher Nielsen
2003-05-07 7:32 ` northern snowfall
@ 2003-05-07 15:47 ` ron minnich
2003-05-07 15:59 ` Russ Cox
2003-05-07 16:00 ` andrey mirtchovski
2 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: ron minnich @ 2003-05-07 15:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
another newbie question:
cpu% src date
B: can't find sam server file
cpu%
What should I start looking for to find out what's up?
Also, on drawterm, I am getting rio and acme windows with text which is
not visible. I can type, cursor moves, you just don't see anything. Is
there some place I should start looking for why this is happening?
thanks
ron
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] acme/sam problem
2003-05-07 15:47 ` [9fans] acme/sam problem ron minnich
@ 2003-05-07 15:59 ` Russ Cox
2003-05-07 16:32 ` ron minnich
2003-05-07 16:00 ` andrey mirtchovski
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2003-05-07 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
You're not running a plumber, so src falls
back on trying to find an instance of sam
posted in /srv. Start a plumber before you
start rio. Presumably this is in a drawterm
session.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] acme/sam problem
2003-05-07 15:47 ` [9fans] acme/sam problem ron minnich
2003-05-07 15:59 ` Russ Cox
@ 2003-05-07 16:00 ` andrey mirtchovski
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2003-05-07 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Also, on drawterm, I am getting rio and acme windows with text which is
> not visible. I can type, cursor moves, you just don't see anything. Is
> there some place I should start looking for why this is happening?
>
I know now! This is the same laptop I had (and reported exactly the same
issue some time ago). Now that you have it you're experiencing the same
problem. The difference now is that you're running RedHat (I had FreeBSD
installed) and drawterm-linux (I had drawterm-freebsd).. What's the same
is XFree86 and the video hardware -- S3.
I believe it was assumed to be a race in XFillRectangle somewhere...
So we blame XF86 and S3 for it -- I haven't had any problems running
drawterm with either Radeon 7500 or NVidia TNT2...
andrey
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] acme/sam problem
2003-05-07 15:59 ` Russ Cox
@ 2003-05-07 16:32 ` ron minnich
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: ron minnich @ 2003-05-07 16:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Wed, 7 May 2003, Russ Cox wrote:
> You're not running a plumber, so src falls
> back on trying to find an instance of sam
> posted in /srv. Start a plumber before you
> start rio. Presumably this is in a drawterm
> session.
yes, silly of me to even ask that, I just had to do a ps and notice ... no
plumber. arg.
ron
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* [9fans] snapshots -> archives
2003-05-07 12:47 ` Bruce Ellis
2003-05-07 13:50 ` northern snowfall
@ 2003-05-07 17:01 ` rog
2003-05-07 17:02 ` Russ Cox
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: rog @ 2003-05-07 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
i'm using venti on my laptop and haven't done snap -a very often (it
needs to be done manually if the machine's not on all the time).
i do however have lots of snapshots taken over the last month or so.
question: is it possible to convert some of these snapshots to entries
in archive. it would mean that i wouldn't lose all that history,
which currently i will.
the only other alternative that i can see is to vac the snapshots and
store the scores somewhere, but that wouldn't give nearly such a
seamless result.
if there's no current way to do it, is there some fundamental reason
why i won't be able to hack fossil to be able to do it?
cheers,
rog.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] snapshots -> archives
2003-05-07 17:01 ` [9fans] snapshots -> archives rog
@ 2003-05-07 17:02 ` Russ Cox
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2003-05-07 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> i'm using venti on my laptop and haven't done snap -a very often (it
> needs to be done manually if the machine's not on all the time).
>
> i do however have lots of snapshots taken over the last month or so.
>
> question: is it possible to convert some of these snapshots to entries
> in archive. it would mean that i wouldn't lose all that history,
> which currently i will.
>
> the only other alternative that i can see is to vac the snapshots and
> store the scores somewhere, but that wouldn't give nearly such a
> seamless result.
>
> if there's no current way to do it, is there some fundamental reason
> why i won't be able to hack fossil to be able to do it?
there's no current way to do it. it should be easy enough.
you need to move the snapshots into the /archive tree
(some coding required) and then just run snap -a.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-07 5:41 ` Christopher Nielsen
@ 2003-05-08 7:30 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-09 20:22 ` ron minnich
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-08 7:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Christopher Nielsen" <cnielsen@pobox.com>
> Doh! I should know that bit fields aren't portable.
it's worse than that, a 32 bit int access on a 16 bit device register _may_
get 'optimised' into an 'extract field' instruction which then causes a kernel
mode fault. iirc the 8th Ed TU16 driver ... 750/780 porting issue.
--
The Beretta 92FS -- don't leave home without it ...
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-08 7:30 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-09 20:22 ` ron minnich
2003-05-09 21:09 ` Geoff Collyer
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: ron minnich @ 2003-05-09 20:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Thu, 8 May 2003, boyd, rounin wrote:
> it's worse than that, a 32 bit int access on a 16 bit device register _may_
> get 'optimised' into an 'extract field' instruction which then causes a kernel
> mode fault. iirc the 8th Ed TU16 driver ... 750/780 porting issue.
yes, the whole bitfield thing is a total botch when it cames to real
hardware. Truly bad things happen.
ron
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-09 20:22 ` ron minnich
@ 2003-05-09 21:09 ` Geoff Collyer
2003-05-09 23:29 ` Scott Schwartz
2003-05-10 2:54 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-12 8:56 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Geoff Collyer @ 2003-05-09 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
These two are from memory, since grep hasn't turned up the sources
(it's time to fully index all my files, I guess) and neither one is in
the fortunes file:
Bit-fields are a botch and a blemish. - Dennis Ritchie
(possibly from a Usenix conference)
Only children and idiots use bit-fields. - Rob Pike
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-09 21:09 ` Geoff Collyer
@ 2003-05-09 23:29 ` Scott Schwartz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Scott Schwartz @ 2003-05-09 23:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
| These two are from memory, since grep hasn't turned up the sources
| (it's time to fully index all my files, I guess) and neither one is in
| the fortunes file:
The best one was something like:
I'll use bit-fields before I use Plan 9! - Brian Kernighan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-09 20:22 ` ron minnich
2003-05-09 21:09 ` Geoff Collyer
@ 2003-05-10 2:54 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 5:04 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-12 8:56 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-10 2:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
From: "ron minnich" <rminnich@lanl.gov>
> yes, the whole bitfield thing is a total botch when it cames to real
> hardware. Truly bad things happen.
they did; john mackin & i fixed 'em [sending the fixes to 1127] -- ugly ...
extract field instructions just didn't work on the 780's 16 bit UBA device
registers.
don't even get me started on the 'bitmap of free/used ram' on 32V ...
bonus points: what (and how much) did the 780 set to zero on boot?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 5:04 ` northern snowfall
@ 2003-05-10 4:11 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-10 4:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
From: "northern snowfall" <dbailey27@ameritech.net>
> 1127. thats too weird.
11271
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 2:54 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-10 5:04 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-10 4:11 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: northern snowfall @ 2003-05-10 5:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>
>
>they did; john mackin & i fixed 'em [sending the fixes to 1127] -- ugly ...
>
1127. thats too weird.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-09 20:22 ` ron minnich
2003-05-09 21:09 ` Geoff Collyer
2003-05-10 2:54 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-12 8:56 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2003-05-12 9:29 ` boyd, rounin
2 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Douglas A. Gwyn @ 2003-05-12 8:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
ron minnich wrote:
> yes, the whole bitfield thing is a total botch when it cames to real
> hardware. Truly bad things happen.
Bad things sometimes happen even with access of memory-
mapped device registers via ordinary integer types.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-12 8:56 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
@ 2003-05-12 9:29 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-12 9:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Bad things sometimes happen even with access of memory-
> mapped device registers via ordinary integer types.
'780 extract field on a 16 bit UBA device register ....
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-12 8:56 ` Anthony Mandic
@ 2003-05-12 9:27 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-12 9:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Can you be less obscure and elaborate?
never ask a question you don't know the answer to :)
there are always 3 responses.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 4:52 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 5:20 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2003-05-10 7:11 ` Dennis Ritchie
@ 2003-05-12 8:56 ` Anthony Mandic
2003-05-12 9:27 ` boyd, rounin
2 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Anthony Mandic @ 2003-05-12 8:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
"boyd, rounin" wrote:
>
> > Is this why Plan9 uses pjw as the catchall glyph?
>
> those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it ...
>
> ever seen the pjw labs management hierarchy diagram?
No, never.
> or the t-shirt, or the tower, or the stolen tower template, or the thief, or the
> accused thief?
Can you be less obscure and elaborate?
-am � 2003
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-11 6:04 ` rob pike, esq.
@ 2003-05-11 7:03 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-11 7:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Helvetica periods.
nice use of the 48x48x1 and troff.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-11 2:31 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-11 6:04 ` rob pike, esq.
2003-05-11 7:03 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: rob pike, esq. @ 2003-05-11 6:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> how was the 'face the nation' pjw icon encoded in troff, circa 1984?
Helvetica periods.
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-11 3:48 ` Dennis Ritchie
@ 2003-05-11 3:54 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-11 3:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
From: "Dennis Ritchie" <dmr@plan9.bell-labs.com>
> Vic also let it be quietly known that the envelope had
> been pushed to its very limit.
iirc he took a short stroll to collect his thoughts on the matter.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 23:16 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-11 2:07 ` rob pike, esq.
@ 2003-05-11 3:48 ` Dennis Ritchie
2003-05-11 3:54 ` boyd, rounin
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Dennis Ritchie @ 2003-05-11 3:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Boyd said,
> not sure where [my t-shirt] is. i was wearing at CRL one day and the lab director
> was very curious about how i'd got it ...
> the story i heard is that he declined the expense claim for the paint.
Rob demurred,
> Different 'he'. The decliner was Vic Vyssotsky.
Assuming CRL was Digital's Cambridge (MA) research
lab, they were presumably the same person--Vic moved
there. The story of the paint voucher can be expanded.
It was submitted to Vyssotsky, signed indeed by
G. R. Emlin (in a handwriting a graphologist would
have little trouble with). It came back with a note
from Vic, saying approximately:
Unfortunately I do not have authorization under
the G.E.I. to approve real estate improvements.
If Ms [then perhaps Mr] Emlin wishes to arrange
a transfer to the Buildings and Grounds group, I
will help to facilitate this.
Vic also let it be quietly known that the envelope had
been pushed to its very limit.
Dennis
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-11 2:08 ` rob pike, esq.
@ 2003-05-11 2:31 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-11 6:04 ` rob pike, esq.
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-11 2:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
how was the 'face the nation' pjw icon encoded in troff, circa 1984?
knowing it's 'size' is trivial, but getting troff to render it, well ... think
of berkeley
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-11 2:07 ` rob pike, esq.
@ 2003-05-11 2:26 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-11 2:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Different 'he'. The decliner was Vic Vyssotsky.
stranger and stranger, but you [i] learn something every day ...
June 10-14, 1985, there were 1,730 attendees at the Portland,
OR, meeting. Vic Vyssotsky was the keynote speaker. Other speakers
were Gordon Bell, Eric Allman, Bjarne Stroustrup, Rob Pike, Dave Presotto,
Andy Koenig, Tom Ferrin, Dave Yost, Dennis Ritchie, Don Libes, Mike Hawley,
Ed Gould, Sam Leffler, Dave Korn, Kirk McKusick, Mike Karels, Brian Redman,
and . . .
http://www.usenix.org/publications/login/2000-8/usenixnews.html
hang on, google vet allt ...
Victor Vyssotsky gave us the freedom to experiment carefully with the
Internetgateway at Digital's Cambridge ResearchLab. NeilFishman and
TedWojcikassisted withourexperiments at CRL's gateway.
http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/cinci93/full_papers/treese.txt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 23:54 ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2003-05-11 2:08 ` rob pike, esq.
2003-05-11 2:31 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: rob pike, esq. @ 2003-05-11 2:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> why did Pike and Holzmann do it?
An imponderable.
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 23:16 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-11 2:07 ` rob pike, esq.
2003-05-11 2:26 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-11 3:48 ` Dennis Ritchie
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: rob pike, esq. @ 2003-05-11 2:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> the story i heard is that he declined the expense claim for the paint.
Different 'he'. The decliner was Vic Vyssotsky.
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 23:09 ` jmk
2003-05-10 23:16 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 23:26 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-11 2:06 ` rob pike, esq.
2 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: rob pike, esq. @ 2003-05-11 2:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> As far as I remember, the original white was a small run of no more
> than a dozen or so, done in a Portland, OR shop during a break at the
> USENIX conference.
That is correct. I think Joe Buhler had a friend who made t-shirts and
we used him. Later, back in NJ, we took the same pattern to a shop
and made a bunch more. The originals were polyester/cotton blend
and kinda flimsy; the later set were pure cotton and a darker (less
close to AT&T) blue. Glick's version was much later.
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 7:11 ` Dennis Ritchie
2003-05-10 16:53 ` matt
2003-05-10 23:09 ` jmk
@ 2003-05-10 23:54 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2003-05-11 2:08 ` rob pike, esq.
2 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2003-05-10 23:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>> Is this why Plan9 uses pjw as the catchall glyph?
>
>> those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it ...
>
>> ever seen the pjw labs management hierarchy diagram?
>
>> or the t-shirt, or the tower, or the stolen tower template, or the thief, or the
>> accused thief?
>
> cf. http://spinroot.com/pico/pjw.html
Thanks, now I remember. I did read about it in the Digital Darkroom book.
But like a good story, it is fun to hear it again.
Maybe a deeper question is, why did Pike and Holzmann do it? Was
it an inspiration that then snowballed, or was there a deeper
motivation? The campaign to distribute it in so many forms, certainly
has a fanatical feel to it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 23:09 ` jmk
2003-05-10 23:16 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-10 23:26 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-11 2:06 ` rob pike, esq.
2 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-10 23:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> As far as I remember, the original white was a small run of no more
> than a dozen or so, done in a Portland, OR shop during a break at the
> USENIX conference.
this sounds right; piers, maltby and brucee were there
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 23:09 ` jmk
@ 2003-05-10 23:16 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-11 2:07 ` rob pike, esq.
2003-05-11 3:48 ` Dennis Ritchie
2003-05-10 23:26 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-11 2:06 ` rob pike, esq.
2 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-10 23:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> As far as I remember, the original white was a small run of no more
> than a dozen or so, done in a Portland, OR shop during a break at the
> USENIX conference.
not sure where mine is. i was wearing at CRL one day and the lab director
was very curious about how i'd got it ...
the story i heard is that he declined the expense claim for the paint.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 7:11 ` Dennis Ritchie
2003-05-10 16:53 ` matt
@ 2003-05-10 23:09 ` jmk
2003-05-10 23:16 ` boyd, rounin
` (2 more replies)
2003-05-10 23:54 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2 siblings, 3 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: jmk @ 2003-05-10 23:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Sat May 10 03:12:21 EDT 2003, dmr@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> ...
> cf. http://spinroot.com/pico/pjw.html
> ...
The above reference is not accurate regarding the versions of the
T-shirts. The original white with blue logo and the pale blue with
black logo shown in http://spinroot.com/pico/pjw_shirt_front.jpg
used a version of Duff's log with fewer lines. The second version,
done by Paul Glick, was a brighter (but still pale) blue with a
blocky 'pixelated' version of PJW's face, not the 'death-star' style
of the first.
As far as I remember, the original white was a small run of no more
than a dozen or so, done in a Portland, OR shop during a break at the
USENIX conference.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 18:08 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-10 17:12 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-10 22:34 ` boyd, rounin
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-10 22:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 36 bytes --]
goto [label that got deleted];
[-- Attachment #2: qab.jpg --]
[-- Type: image/jpeg, Size: 106910 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 16:58 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-10 18:08 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-10 17:12 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 22:34 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: northern snowfall @ 2003-05-10 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>
>
>i'll have the QAB shirt in a few days
>
That'd be a pretty sweet tshirt:
Font:
Image of the plan9 pjw glyph
Back:
"I always wondered what that font glyph meant..."
plan9 by Bell Labs
Don
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 18:08 ` northern snowfall
@ 2003-05-10 17:12 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 22:34 ` boyd, rounin
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-10 17:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
i could post a cropped copy of the back of it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 16:53 ` matt
2003-05-10 16:58 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-10 16:58 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 18:08 ` northern snowfall
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-10 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
i'll have the QAB shirt in a few days
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 16:53 ` matt
@ 2003-05-10 16:58 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 16:58 ` boyd, rounin
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-10 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
somewhere i have the 'white shirt'.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 7:11 ` Dennis Ritchie
@ 2003-05-10 16:53 ` matt
2003-05-10 16:58 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 16:58 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 23:09 ` jmk
2003-05-10 23:54 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: matt @ 2003-05-10 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> > cf. http://spinroot.com/pico/pjw.html
what a lovely story
with one slightly disturbing aspect :
"Peter agreed to let us take a plaster cast of his faces."
I hope it's a consonant added rather than a missing vowel.
Curious that the plan9 glyph isn't mentioned.
m
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 4:52 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 5:20 ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2003-05-10 7:11 ` Dennis Ritchie
2003-05-10 16:53 ` matt
` (2 more replies)
2003-05-12 8:56 ` Anthony Mandic
2 siblings, 3 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Dennis Ritchie @ 2003-05-10 7:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>> Is this why Plan9 uses pjw as the catchall glyph?
> those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it ...
> ever seen the pjw labs management hierarchy diagram?
> or the t-shirt, or the tower, or the stolen tower template, or the thief, or the
> accused thief?
cf. http://spinroot.com/pico/pjw.html
Dennis
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 4:52 ` boyd, rounin
@ 2003-05-10 5:20 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2003-05-10 5:19 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 7:11 ` Dennis Ritchie
2003-05-12 8:56 ` Anthony Mandic
2 siblings, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2003-05-10 5:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it ...
This reminds me, was there or is there a Bell-Labs historian? I would
think some of the stories would make an interesting history book. The
exciting ones, of course, not the belly-button-lint-picking ones ☺
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 5:20 ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2003-05-10 5:19 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-10 5:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> This reminds me, was there or is there a Bell-Labs historian?
talk to jmk ...
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 4:49 ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2003-05-10 4:52 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 5:20 ` Skip Tavakkolian
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2003-05-10 4:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Is this why Plan9 uses pjw as the catchall glyph?
those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it ...
ever seen the pjw labs management hierarchy diagram?
or the t-shirt, or the tower, or the stolen tower template, or the thief, or the
accused thief?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 0:13 ` [9fans] struct problems David Presotto
2003-05-10 0:22 ` Scott Schwartz
@ 2003-05-10 4:49 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2003-05-10 4:52 ` boyd, rounin
1 sibling, 1 reply; 52+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2003-05-10 4:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> I'd use plan 9 before i'd use bitfields -- pjw
Is this why Plan9 uses pjw as the catchall glyph?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
2003-05-10 0:13 ` [9fans] struct problems David Presotto
@ 2003-05-10 0:22 ` Scott Schwartz
2003-05-10 4:49 ` Skip Tavakkolian
1 sibling, 0 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: Scott Schwartz @ 2003-05-10 0:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
| Trust in the grep Scott:
Oops. Sorry for the misquote.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] struct problems
@ 2003-05-10 0:13 ` David Presotto
2003-05-10 0:22 ` Scott Schwartz
2003-05-10 4:49 ` Skip Tavakkolian
0 siblings, 2 replies; 52+ messages in thread
From: David Presotto @ 2003-05-10 0:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>From: Scott Schwartz <schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu>
>The best one was something like:
> I'll use bit-fields before I use Plan 9! - Brian Kernighan
Trust in the grep Scott:
% grep bit /sys/games/lib/fortunes|grep field
I'd use plan 9 before i'd use bitfields -- pjw
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 52+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-05-12 9:29 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 52+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2003-05-07 4:36 [9fans] struct problems Christopher Nielsen
2003-05-07 5:34 ` Christopher Nielsen
2003-05-07 5:36 ` Nigel Roles
2003-05-07 5:41 ` Christopher Nielsen
2003-05-08 7:30 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-09 20:22 ` ron minnich
2003-05-09 21:09 ` Geoff Collyer
2003-05-09 23:29 ` Scott Schwartz
2003-05-10 2:54 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 5:04 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-10 4:11 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-12 8:56 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2003-05-12 9:29 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-07 7:32 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-07 11:05 ` Bruce Ellis
2003-05-07 13:06 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-07 12:47 ` Bruce Ellis
2003-05-07 13:50 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-07 17:01 ` [9fans] snapshots -> archives rog
2003-05-07 17:02 ` Russ Cox
2003-05-07 15:47 ` [9fans] acme/sam problem ron minnich
2003-05-07 15:59 ` Russ Cox
2003-05-07 16:32 ` ron minnich
2003-05-07 16:00 ` andrey mirtchovski
[not found] <presotto@closedmind.org>
2003-05-10 0:13 ` [9fans] struct problems David Presotto
2003-05-10 0:22 ` Scott Schwartz
2003-05-10 4:49 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2003-05-10 4:52 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 5:20 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2003-05-10 5:19 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 7:11 ` Dennis Ritchie
2003-05-10 16:53 ` matt
2003-05-10 16:58 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 16:58 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 18:08 ` northern snowfall
2003-05-10 17:12 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 22:34 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 23:09 ` jmk
2003-05-10 23:16 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-11 2:07 ` rob pike, esq.
2003-05-11 2:26 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-11 3:48 ` Dennis Ritchie
2003-05-11 3:54 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-10 23:26 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-11 2:06 ` rob pike, esq.
2003-05-10 23:54 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2003-05-11 2:08 ` rob pike, esq.
2003-05-11 2:31 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-11 6:04 ` rob pike, esq.
2003-05-11 7:03 ` boyd, rounin
2003-05-12 8:56 ` Anthony Mandic
2003-05-12 9:27 ` boyd, rounin
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