From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9C0E59DDCCDD197FBD4EC404@192.168.1.2> References: <542783.92348.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <55D72913-15FB-415F-BE43-7D173E0AC449@storytotell.org> <7AAFE4127E1DB57785BB273A@192.168.1.2> <9C0E59DDCCDD197FBD4EC404@192.168.1.2> Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 11:05:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3e1162e60909061105p2b911917h820aca0e08b10b30@mail.gmail.com> From: David Leimbach To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd25d22d0ff8f0472ec951d Subject: Re: [9fans] nice quote Topicbox-Message-UUID: 66b2fec8-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --000e0cd25d22d0ff8f0472ec951d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Eris Discordia wrote: > In this respect rating the "expressive power of C versus LISP" depends >> very much on the problem domain under discussion. >> > > Of course. I pointed out in my first post on the thread that "[...] for a > person of my (low) caliber, LISP is neither suited to the family of problems > I encounter nor suited to the machines I solve them on." I cannot exclude > other machines and other problems but can talk from what little I have > personally experienced. > > I would like to see Haskell fill C's niche [...] >> > > Is it as readily comprehensible to newcomers as C? Are there texts out > there that can welcome a real beginner in programming and help him become > productive, on a personal level at least, as rapidly as good C > textbooks--you know the classic example--do? Is there a coherent mental > model of small computers--not necessarily what you or I deem to be a small > computer--that Haskell fits well and can be taught to learners? I imagine > those will be indispensable for any language to replace existing languages, > much more so in case of C. > According to the designer of F# (another functional programming language that takes it's syntax from O'Caml as well as Haskell and even Python), one of the best experiences he'd had was working with a high school student who was able to modify a solar system simulation written in F# with no prior programming experience. (from http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/271034/) There's books on F# out there, and F# for Scientists. http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/fsharp_for_scientists/index.html There's books on multimedia programming in Haskell out there that also attempt to show programming to newcomers, but I'm not sure any of them really assume no prior programming experience. I think people learning C get one view of the computer that folks learning assembly really learn to appreciate :-). Folks learning Haskell learn another mental model of programming as well. My personal belief is that learning new languages makes one think about the languages they are used to in a new light, and can make them better programmers overall. --000e0cd25d22d0ff8f0472ec951d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Eris Di= scordia <e= ris.discordia@gmail.com> wrote:
In this respect rating the "expressive power of C versus LISP" de= pends
very much on the problem domain under discussion.

Of course. I pointed out in my first post on the thread that "[...] fo= r a person of my (low) caliber, LISP is neither suited to the family of pro= blems I encounter nor suited to the machines I solve them on." I canno= t exclude other machines and other problems but can talk from what little I= have personally experienced.

I would like to see Haskell fill C's niche [...]

Is it as readily comprehensible to newcomers as C? Are there texts out ther= e that can welcome a real beginner in programming and help him become produ= ctive, on a personal level at least, as rapidly as good C textbooks--you kn= ow the classic example--do? Is there a coherent mental model of small compu= ters--not necessarily what you or I deem to be a small computer--that Haske= ll fits well and can be taught to learners? I imagine those will be indispe= nsable for any language to replace existing languages, much more so in case= of C.

According to the designer of F# (another f= unctional programming language that takes it's syntax from O'Caml a= s well as Haskell and even Python), one of the best experiences he'd ha= d was working with a high school student who was able to modify a solar sys= tem simulation written in F# with no prior programming experience. =A0(from= =A0http://www.c= omputerworld.com.au/article/271034/)

There's books on F# out there, and F# for Scientist= s.


There's books on multimedia programming in Haskell = out there that also attempt to show programming to newcomers, but I'm n= ot sure any of them really assume no prior programming experience.=A0

I think people learning C get one view of the computer = that folks learning assembly really learn to appreciate :-). =A0Folks learn= ing Haskell learn another mental model of programming as well. =A0

My personal belief is that learning new languages makes one = think about the languages they are used to in a new light, and can make the= m better programmers overall.

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