[9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Gregory Pavelcak]

Just wondering...

Is fossil/venti the standard now, or if you had enough hardware around
to have a dedicated file server, would you use Ken's fs?

In the Wiki and in fairly recent 9fans discussions you find talk about
kfs, Ken's fs, and fossil/venti, and it's not clear how one should
choose what to use.  Anyone care to provide a primer on making this
decision?

Thanks.

Greg

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[C H Forsyth]

>>Is fossil/venti the standard now, or if you had enough hardware around
>>to have a dedicated file server, would you use Ken's fs?

i run venti and fossil on dedicated file servers,
so i don't think having hardware (or not) is the key.

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Gregory Pavelcak]

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OK, thanks.  Now we're getting somewhere.  I guess I just mention
hardware availability because I got the impression that while you
could run everything from a single PC with fossil (by "run everything"
I mean have it handle auth/cpu/fs), Ken's fs was designed to be run on
a machine that acts as a file server and nothing else, though I'm
guessing now that nothing would prevent me from using Ken's on a
multipurpose machine.  In any case, you're right the hardware stuff is
a red herring, so allow me to rephrase a bit more concisely.

In Plan 9 you can use fossil, kfs or Ken's fs, which do you choose and
why?

Greg

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From: C H Forsyth <forsyth@vitanuova.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:40:54 +0000
Message-ID: <85dde4f80df65f2a8903a75ce091ad05@vitanuova.com>

>>Is fossil/venti the standard now, or if you had enough hardware around
>>to have a dedicated file server, would you use Ken's fs?

i run venti and fossil on dedicated file servers,
so i don't think having hardware (or not) is the key.

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Russ Cox]

> I mean have it handle auth/cpu/fs), Ken's fs was designed to be run on
> a machine that acts as a file server and nothing else, though I'm
> guessing now that nothing would prevent me from using Ken's on a
> multipurpose machine.  In any case, you're right the hardware stuff is

The worm file system still requires its own dedicated machine,
so unless you're using something like VMware, the machine
won't be very multipurpose.

> In Plan 9 you can use fossil, kfs or Ken's fs, which do you choose and
> why?

Fossil is the successor to the WORM file server.
Unless you're using a real WORM jukebox, I don't see
any good reason to install the old file server.  Using Venti
on a disk instead of pretending it is a fake WORM takes
up significantly less space and lets you use vac, vacfs, etc.
as well as the file server.

I know people had stability concerns for a while, but fossil
seems solid now.  I've only seen one reported bug in the
last few months or more, and it was fixed within a day.

Fossil also gives you features not available in the WORM file
server, like long file names, the DMTMP bit, file service over TCP,
and temporary snapshots.

Russ

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[geoff]

I run Ken's fs because I have a WORM jukebox and I've found Ken's fs
to be very reliable.

I'd forgotten about the DMTMP bit; I ought to add that to Ken's fs.

jmk seems to be understandably quite busy, so I'm making my January
5th snapshot of the 64-bit ken fs available now, at
http://www.collyer.net/~geoff/9/fs64.tgz.  This one includes longer
filename components (55 rather than 27 bytes maximum), Intel gigabit
Ethernet driver, better IDE disk support using DMA and RWM if
available, file truncation via wstat, and automatic shutdown if an APC
UPS warns of low power (courtesy Nigel Roles).

Still to be done are the DMTMP bit, AoE support, possible interface to
a venti store, and porting the upper part of the fs kernel to a cpu
kernel.

Note too that this kernel can be built as a 32-bit fs kernel, for
compatibility with existing on-disk file systems.  Thus one could use
it just to pick up the other improvements (igbe driver, faster IDE,
wstat truncation, UPS shutdown).

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> I know people had stability concerns for a while, but fossil
> seems solid now.  I've only seen one reported bug in the
> last few months or more, and it was fixed within a day.

I plan to migrate to fossil/venti in the next month or so;  the
fact that kenfs works so well, makes it hard to get the ambition
to do it.

Tangentially related to fs: anyone see Coraid's ad in
Linux Journal? Looks good.

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Unless you're using a real WORM jukebox, I don't see
> any good reason to install the old file server.  

NO, there is a very good reason to maintain Ken's file server,
because it was written by Ken Thompson, which is very good
for young students to touch first with sources.  To me, his source
is not so easy to read though (too much concise to me☺).

Kenji

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[boyd, rounin]

> NO, there is a very good reason to maintain Ken's file server,
> because it was written by Ken Thompson

nope, i'd maintain it because of the mastery of the solution to the problem.
--
MGRS 31U DQ 52572 12604

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Kenji Okamoto]

>> NO, there is a very good reason to maintain Ken's file server,
>> because it was written by Ken Thompson
> 
> nope, i'd maintain it because of the mastery of the solution to the problem.

In such case, we usually say 'additionary' not 'nope'.☺

Kenji

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Brantley Coile]

Gee, thanks Skip.  We are working on a AoE device
driver for Plan 9.  When we are finished, we are going
to give any member of the 9fans mailing list a discount.
Sam and I are also going to switch to fossil/venti.

   Brantley

On Mar 21, 2005, at 9:07 PM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:

> Tangentially related to fs: anyone see Coraid's ad in
> Linux Journal? Looks good.

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[vdharani]

Hi,

> Gee, thanks Skip.  We are working on a AoE device
> driver for Plan 9.  When we are finished, we are going
> to give any member of the 9fans mailing list a discount.
i admire and appreciate your plan. It is great to know loyal plan 9
promoters/well-wishers/users are given some kind of recognition by people
in the group.

>> Tangentially related to fs: anyone see Coraid's ad in
>> Linux Journal? Looks good.
btw, does someone tell me where I can find the ad? does someone have
atleast a scanned version? i was trying to look for the ad in the websites
(linux journal and coraid) but couldnt locate it.

thanks
dharani

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

> >> I assume that you need　some other file system on the local disk
> >> from which you can boot? Or a bootable CD-ROM would work?
 :
> Probably, he wrote the case when fossil crashed.

Yes.  I was moron or whatever. :)
On the crash, boot from a CD-ROM or yet another fileserver.
--

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Kenji Okamoto]

>> I assume that you need　some other file system on the local disk
>> from which you can boot? Or a bootable CD-ROM would work?
> 
> One of my fileserver is booting from fossil+venti and this is

Probably, he wrote the case when fossil crashed.

Kenji  --returned from rainy Houston

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

> I assume that you need　some other file system on the local disk
> from which you can boot? Or a bootable CD-ROM would work?

One of my fileserver is booting from fossil+venti and this is
the only filesystem on the server.  Both of fossil and venti
are started by the kernel.

It is tricky to take the first archival snapshot.  Many reported
the system looked hanged for hours when the first snapshot was
taking place on the fossil from which the kernel had booted.

Therefore, I prefer booting from CD-ROM, get venti and fossil
running, taking the first snapshot, shutting down the system,
rebooting from the fossil+venti.

> # My hardware is often flaky...

Fileservers should be reliable. :)
--

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Steve Simon]

Whoever this idiot is he obviously dosen't check what he writes,
he meant:

> 	http://www.quintile.net/Venti-rescue.html
> 	http://www.quintile.net/Venti-rescue.ms

-Steve

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Steve Simon]

> I would very much like to know how to recover from a fossil crash.
> Have you written up a note or something that you can share?

Maybe I never announced this:

	http://www.quintile.net/usr/web/Venti-rescue.html
	http://www.quintile.net/usr/web/Venti-rescue.ms

-Steve

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[kazumi iwane]

> I use fossil+venti because recovering from a fossil crash
> or moving to new file server hardwares by initializing from
> a single venti score is heavenly.

I would very much like to know how to recover from a fossil crash.
Have you written up a note or something that you can share?

I assume that you need　some other file system on the local disk
from which you can boot? Or a bootable CD-ROM would work?

# My hardware is often flaky...

- kazumi

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[Steve Simon]

> # just for the record.  Fossil crashed only once or twice and
> # they were all my fault.  I never experienced unstability
> # on fossil yet.

The only crash I had with fossil turned out to be a
sick RAM.

Still grumbles "blistAlloc: called on clean block"
once or twice a day, but it never goes wrong.

(hope it cannot hear me saying this ☺).

-Steve

Re: [9fans] New plan 9 Installation and File Systems

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

> Fossil also gives you features not available in the WORM file
> server, like long file names, the DMTMP bit, file service over TCP,
> and temporary snapshots.

I use fossil+venti because recovering from a fossil crash
or moving to new file server hardwares by initializing from
a single venti score is heavenly.

# just for the record.  Fossil crashed only once or twice and
# they were all my fault.  I never experienced unstability
# on fossil yet.
--