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* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20  9:03 Eris Discordia
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20  9:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> None of the above, I write embedded code, my employer has a clear enough
> vision to allow me to use whatever OS I like, provided I get the job in
> hand done, which I clearly do.

You have a _very_ flexible employer there.

> I'am afraid I am not willing to discuss the details of my job with you,
> however I find writing code using plan9 and the plan9 environment makes my
> life much easier and allows me to get my job done; present chatter
> excepted.

You needn't discuss anything, except how Plan 9 makes you life easier than 
FreeBSD would. You could even drop that. Even responding to my first post 
was an act of volition, I reckon.

> I'am not sure which test you wanted to perform, but your email arrived
> here OK (Via plan9's smtpd and upas/fs), the Hebrew appears intact though
> I don't speak the language so I cannot tell if it is correct. I have
> quoted it back to you to see if it passes the return path OK.

It seems fine here. Both Hebrew and Arabic. I presume the Plan 9 smtpd is 
running at quintile.net and not even bothering to identify itself as "ESMTP 
(something)" because after quintile.net the path goes through Exim and then 
Google's machinery.

Now, could you have input that text? Relaying mail as it is isn't really a 
feat, you know. That's the _minimum_ expected from an MTA.

> I would love to discuss more, but I have work to do (using plan9, but not
> on plan9).

Reading your postings is always a pleasure. Do me the favor more often :-)

--On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:01 AM +0100 Steve Simon 
<steve@quintile.net> wrote:

>> 1. Maintaining a Plan 9 system?
>> 2. Programming a Plan 9 system?
>> 3. Researching a Plan 9 system?
>> 4. Or you got some job other than jobs created _around_ Plan 9 and you
>> use  Plan 9?
>
> None of the above, I write embedded code, my employer has a clear enough
> vision to allow me to use whatever OS I like, provided I get the job in
> hand done, which I clearly do.
>
> I'am afraid I am not willing to discuss the details of my job with you,
> however I find writing code using plan9 and the plan9 environment makes my
> life much easier and allows me to get my job done; present chatter
> excepted.
>
>> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
>> through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם
>> עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم"
>> (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address.
>
> I'am not sure which test you wanted to perform, but your email arrived
> here OK (Via plan9's smtpd and upas/fs), the Hebrew appears intact though
> I don't speak the language so I cannot tell if it is correct. I have
> quoted it back to you to see if it passes the return path OK.
>
> I would love to discuss more, but I have work to do (using plan9, but not
> on plan9).
>
> -Steve
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-24 17:13 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-25  3:57 ` Michaelian Ennis
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-24 17:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> this leads to the conclusion that google is different from knowledge.

No. It leads to a more meaningful conclusion. Namely, that a 9person will 
not learn another language, Arabic in this case, even by living in another 
country, in this case the KSA.

And that there are better sources for copycatting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As-Salamu_Alaykum

"Virtually all Arabic speakers today, especially those in the Middle East 
omit the initial 'As' and pronounce the word as 'Salamu Alaykum.'"

Which is still incomparable to the first hand knowledge of Arabic grammar 
that tells you in Arabic the subject in a predicative sentence takes the 
"tanveen/tanween" corresponding to the short vowel "damma," i.e. "damma" (= 
ُ) turns to "dammatan" (= ٌ).

Oh, and I do remember you pontificating about how "text" editors shouldn't 
get involved in ligature, diacritics, vowel placement, and the like. Go 
tell that to "عبدالله بن عبدالعزیز آل سعود". The 
Unicode Consortium tried hard to satisfy him--his money, in fact.

--On Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:20 AM -0400 erik quanstrom 
<quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

>> Small correction, it is actually " ال سلام " , or "As-Salaam" (the
>> L in AL elides with "shams" letters). It would also be inappropriate for
>> you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims
>> only. Since you are using the name "Eris, is the name of a "deity", it
>> is safe to assume you are not a muslim. :) It is also "As-salaamu",
>> there is a "damma" or "u" vowel atop then meem in "salaam".
>>
>> "marhaban" is a more appropriate greeting in this case.
>>
>
> this leads to the conclusion that google is different from knowledge.
>
> - erik
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-24 16:52 Eris Discordia
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-24 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Man, this mailing list seems to love my contaminative presence. If you 
don't want me to post please don't challenge my previous postings. 
Otherwise, I'll have to respond.

1. "As-Salam" is a noun, "Salam," with the definite article "Al." It means 
"peace." It is also one of the many descriptive names of Allah.

2. The two classes of letters you refer to are called "Shamsii" and 
"Qamarii" (with stressed "i"). Meaning "solar" and "lunar," respectively. 
The "solar" consonants are the Arabic equivalents of "sh," "n," "l," "z" 
(all four Arabic consonants that sound like /z/ to you, i.e. "ذ", "ض", 
"ظ", and "ز"), "r," "d," "s," (the three /s/ sounding consonants, i.e. 
"ث", "ص", and "س"), "t" (both /t/ sounding ones, i.e. "ت" and "ط"). 
The rest of consonants are "lunar."

3. "Salam-on alaikom," transliteration of "سلام علیکم," is a 
greeting. It is not some sort of mantra directed at Allah. It means "peace 
be upon you." And it isn't reserved for Muslims. In any sane 
Arabic-speaking country--and some non-Arabic-speaking countries--you'll be 
greeted by that same phrase. The phrase corresponds exactly to the famous 
Hebrew "Shalom aleichem," which also means "peace be upon you."

4. That "-on" suffix is a "tanveen"--there are three tanveens, each 
corresponding to one short vowel--on the ending of "Salam." It serves the 
function of the copula "to be." As in "Ash-Shata Barid-on," transliteration 
of "الشتا بارد", meaning "the winter is cold."

5. "Marhaba," transliteration of "مرحبا"--and not "Marhaban"--means 
something between "well done" and "welcome." It is also part of the phrase 
"اهلاً و سهلاً، مرحبا", "Ahl-an wa Sahl-an, Marhaba," 
which is just an underlining of the same notion: "welcome." See? Two 
tanveens on the endings of "Ahl" and "Sahl" but none on the ending of 
"Marhaba."

6. You're right. I'm not a Muslim.

--On Sunday, August 24, 2008 10:27 AM +0300 John Waters 
<jcwjr215@gmail.com> wrote:

> Small correction, it is actually " ال سلام " , or "As-Salaam" (the L
> in AL elides with "shams" letters). It would also be inappropriate for
> you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims
> only. Since you are using the name "Eris, is the name of a "deity", it
> is safe to assume you are not a muslim. :) It is also "As-salaamu",
> there is a "damma" or "u" vowel atop then meem in "salaam".
>
> "marhaban" is a more appropriate greeting in this case.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 2:51 AM, Eris Discordia
> <eris.discordia@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
>> through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם
>> עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم"
>> (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes
>> through."



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-24  8:20 erik quanstrom
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2008-08-24  8:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: jcwjr215, 9fans

> Small correction, it is actually " ال سلام " , or "As-Salaam" (the L
> in AL elides with "shams" letters). It would also be inappropriate for
> you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims
> only. Since you are using the name "Eris, is the name of a "deity", it
> is safe to assume you are not a muslim. :) It is also "As-salaamu",
> there is a "damma" or "u" vowel atop then meem in "salaam".
>
> "marhaban" is a more appropriate greeting in this case.
>

this leads to the conclusion that google is different from knowledge.

- erik



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-21 17:36 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-21 20:39 ` ron minnich
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-21 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Skipping general offenses...

> List manager: can we *please* just boot this guy until he comes back
> as a real person? It's getting old.

Is it _that_ annoying to you? I could just keep silent if it is so, no
"booting" required. Though I have to say I don't understand how a handful
of emails to a mailing list someone happens to read can irritate them to
such extent. In passing, instead of a threat you could have simply let the
first response be. Were it really a piece of useless text, it would rot on
its own.

--On Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:11 AM -0700 ron minnich
<rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Eris Discordia
> <eris.discordia@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Basically, a terminal should not hold _any_ information on its users.
>> Where does the security of not keeping authentication information on a
>> so-called terminal go when you _keep_ it on the "terminal?" But with
>> multiple users you're going to need authentication. Right?
>
> Eris, this is getting a little boring. Are you really this ignorant of
> what's going on? I don't mind ignorance
> per se but you keep wasting people's time as they try to explain CS
> 101 to you. Maybe you could start a blog and we could
> all ignore it -- it's much easier that way.
>
>>
>> My impression: the UNIX authentication "farce" happened because UNIX
>> began as a replacement to a time-sharing system for more or less
>> physically secure computers but then was downsized to an OS--many OS's,
>> in fact--also usable on personal computers, e.g. 386BSD.
>
> Your impression? Well, that's one way to go at it.. Of course, there
> is the option of acquiring knowledge. It is more work however.
>
> If this is your picture of what happened then you need to go back and
> do some reading.
>
> You leave the "impression", to me anyway, that you read a lot but I
> can not tell that you actually do much of anything. And, to top it
> off, you exist only as an imaginary wikipedia entry.
>
> List manager: can we *please* just boot this guy until he comes back
> as a real person? It's getting old.
>
> ron
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-21 17:20 Eris Discordia
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-21 17:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> namespaces are not public in the sense that they are visible to all
> processes.

I was trying to compare UNIX to Plan 9. Apparently, UNIX processes share a
single "public" namespace which therefore has to be protected by access
privileges.

> since this started out as a discussion of terminals, i should point out
> that terminals by definition have a single user at a time.

What about the so-called "standalone" terminals (~ home computers)? My
intention was to equate a single user UNIX to a Plan 9 standalone terminal.
It's the same difference, I suppose.

> i'm not sure what passes for unix these days, but linux at least
> does not present network interfaces as block devices.  there is no
> /dev/eth0.

The point is this can be done even if it hasn't been done. In case of
FreeBSD, the network interfaces are represented under /dev/net. A sample
installation shows this:

crw------- 1 root wheel 0, 29 Aug 21 18:02 de0
crw------- 1 root wheel 0, 70 Aug 21 18:02 lo0
crw------- 1 root wheel 0, 35 Aug 21 18:02 plip0

Does it mean network interfaces are presented as _character_ devices?

Doing "cat foo >de0" gives "Operation not supported by device."

> what do you mean by this?  the VFS is a kernel interface along the general
> lines of plan 9's devtab.  everything-is-a-file[server] is a general
> principle.

I mean VFS is an abstraction layer that presents a file system. What it
represents as a file system is rather arbitrary.

>> but on UNIX systems it is limited to resources that can be meaningfully
>> represented as file systems.
>
> so why is the network hidden in side channels in adjunct namespaces?

I don't understand this one.

--On Thursday, August 21, 2008 6:36 AM -0400 erik quanstrom
<quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

>> So essentially there shouldn't be a problem with mounting on a single
>> "public" namespace
>
> namespaces are not public in the sense that they are visible to all
> processes.
>
>> as long as there is one user on the system.
>
> since this started out as a discussion of terminals, i should point out
> that terminals by definition have a single user at a time.
>
>> This is classic. Complication is a sign of maturation. Plan 9 has evaded
>> that by not maturing, by avoiding diversification. Before you get angry
>> I  must say that's my "personal" opinion. Nothing I'm going to "force"
>> unto  you. Nothing I _can_ force unto you.
>
> equally one could say complication is a sign that one's vision was
> lacking; a sign that one's system lacks generality.
>
> if you call the opposite of complication immaturity, i'll be proud
> to have an operating system that suffers from it.
>
>> How does that differ from presenting of a network interface by a block
>> device on UNIX? And why should avoiding system calls be considered an
>> advantage? Your VFS layer could do anything expected from /net provided
>> that file system abstraction for the resources represented under /net is
>> viable in the first place.
>
> i'm not sure what passes for unix these days, but linux at least
> does not present network interfaces as block devices.  there is no
> /dev/eth0.
>
>> The VFS approach is by no means inferior to Plan 9's
>> everything-is-a-file,
>
> what do you mean by this?  the VFS is a kernel interface along the general
> lines of plan 9's devtab.  everything-is-a-file[server] is a general
> principle.
>
>
>> but on UNIX systems it is limited to resources that can be meaningfully
>> represented as file systems.
>
> so why is the network hidden in side channels in adjunct namespaces?
>
> - erik
>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-21 16:39 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-21 17:11 ` ron minnich
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-21 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> Virtualization and jailing are hacks to work around the inherent

Virtualization is much more than that. It has a future and the future's 
here. It also has a rather glorious past in IBM VM/CMS.

> restriction ('only root can become another user', hence su/sudo, only
> root can open certain ports, etc.) which Plan 9 cleanly does away
> with.

By assuming _anyone_ at a terminal is root, while sometimes the "terminal" 
is not a terminal at all. What happens when your home computer is 
bootstrapped? Is there a thing glenda can't do? I mean, if someone other 
than you turns your home computer on is it OK for them to be entitled to 
the same privileges that you normally are? Assuming there's method of 
stopping them from disconnecting the hard disk inside and/or from peeking 
into the data on it (there are practical solutions for both of these 
problems).

> A plan9 terminal can run programs, and can have a local storage file
> system, with multiple users. As for authentication, in such use case
> unix auth is little more than a farce of security theater which could
> easily be implemented in plan9 (and I think some people has) if you
> wanted to keep your three year old child from accessing your account
> but is futile for much else.

A "terminal" per se should be dumb. How come it can run programs? It seems 
a Plan 9 term isn't exactly a terminal, not a dumb one for sure. If it can 
run a program, any program, who's going to control what the program 
accesses, especially when there are _multiple_ users some of whom may not 
be exactly trustable and there's a local store of sensitive information?

Basically, a terminal should not hold _any_ information on its users. Where 
does the security of not keeping authentication information on a so-called 
terminal go when you _keep_ it on the "terminal?" But with multiple users 
you're going to need authentication. Right?

My impression: the UNIX authentication "farce" happened because UNIX began 
as a replacement to a time-sharing system for more or less physically 
secure computers but then was downsized to an OS--many OS's, in fact--also 
usable on personal computers, e.g. 386BSD. Personal computers aren't as 
physically secure as the proverbial "big computer in the basement," hence 
the need for role-based security which was, incidentally, introduced in 
386BSD. However, as long as the physical security problem persists the 
"farce" goes on. Nothing wrong with UNIX. The twist is in the placement and 
role of personal computers which can be flaky vessels for sensitive 
information.

Plan 9 doesn't solve that problem for the most common form of computer, 
i.e. the _home_ computer. Not even for the so-called "workstation." It 
solves the problem only for the corporate/university/organization "access 
point," if you know what I mean. Even then that isn't a _new_ solution--it 
was there when the original time-sharing systems were in operation. Of 
course, the Plan 9 solution costs--any solution does--and for the home 
computer these costs aren't followed by gains.

The real problem: "standalone" terminal, also known as the home computer

The real solution: physical security for anything that may carry sensitive 
information. Physical security must include software security against 
physical threats as well, e.g. encryption.

As a side note, Rob Pike has been quoted--I take no responsibility for 
authenticity--saying, "a smart terminal is not a smart ass terminal, but 
rather a terminal you can educate."

That's the root of the problem: underestimation of home computers. A home 
computer is a smart terminal as well as a smart ass terminal and there's 
nothing you can do about it.

> Try to do ioctl over the network.

I think I said ioctl serves a less generic function.

> Here is a reason: Because Plan 9 has no network-related syscalls, and
> applications contain no networking code (even when they are still
> network transparent thanks to 9P), when ipv6 was added to plan9, no
> [...]

UNIX can accommodate this approach any minute now, figuratively speaking. 
It has the infrastructure. Current networking traditions in UNIX aren't 
inherent, they're circumstantial. Remember, the file system abstraction 
began in UNIX--or even before UNIX?

> I don't think any unix systems allows a single application (or
> namespace) to access *multiple* network stacks concurrently... and
> remote network stacks? don't think so either.

So, what exactly is happening when the same process is sending HTTP 
requests to a server on the local 802.3 network, a second server on the 
Internet accessible through my dial-up connection, and a third server on a 
802.11 network? Aren't there _three_ network stacks beneath (or over? the 
PPP, the Ethernet, the WiFi interfaces? To my meager knowledge, these are 
distinct at least up to network layer, i.e. physical-to-host, medium access 
(if present), and data link layers are different.

> namespace) to access *multiple* network stacks concurrently... and
> remote network stacks? don't think so either.

Accessing another computer's network stack is possible through RPC. Though 
the actual requirements for that feat are way beyond my scope.

> Ah, interesting example, isn't it sad that every database system on
> unix (or windows) needs to include its own networking code, its own
> authentication, etc.?

Please take a look at a simple application using System::Data::DataGrid. 
Networking is completely transparent to the DataGrid class. It's been 
abstracted like in Plan 9, though not in a technically identical way. In 
fact, .NET framework has a whole range of abstractions for various purposes.

--On Thursday, August 21, 2008 9:42 AM +0200 Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> 
wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 11:46 PM, Eris Discordia
> <eris.discordia@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thank you, sqweek. The second golden Golden Apple with καλλιστι
>> on it is totally yours. The first one went to Russ Cox.
>>
>>>  You don't care who mounts what where, because the rest of the system
>>> doesn't notice the namespace change.
>>
>> So essentially there shouldn't be a problem with mounting on a single
>> "public" namespace as long as there is one user on the system. mount
>> restriction in UNIX systems was put in place because multiple users exist
>> some of whom may be malicious. Virtualization and jailing will relax that
>> requirement.
>
> Mount restrictions on unix are needed (among other reasons) because of
> a broken security model (ie., suid).
>
> Virtualization and jailing are hacks to work around the inherent
> limitation that in unix resources can not be easily
> abstracted/isolated and are plagued by the 'only root can do X'
> restriction ('only root can become another user', hence su/sudo, only
> root can open certain ports, etc.) which Plan 9 cleanly does away
> with.
>
> Linux could do many things plan9 can do, if it got rid of all suid
> programs (by perhaps using the cap device implementation for the linux
> kernel, if that is ever accepted in mainline linux), but until then...
>
>>>  Uh, what now? You either have an interesting definition of home
>>> computer or some fucked up ideas about plan 9. You only need a cpu
>>> server if you want to let other machines run processes on your
>>> machine. You only need an auth server if you want to serve resources
>>> to a remote machine.
>>
>> Neither statement is true. On a home computer you certainly need a term.
>> You'll need a cpu for a number of tasks. And you'll need auth if there's
>> going to be more than one user on the system, or if you need a safe way
>> of authenticating yourself to your computer. A single glenda account
>> doesn't quite cut it. If you're going to access your storage you'll need
>> some fs('s), too.
>>
>> The bottom line is: term is _certainly_ not enough for doing all the
>> tasks a *BSD does, and requiring a home computer to do all these tasks
>> is far from inconceivable. One *BSD system is almost functionally
>> equivalent to a combination of term, cpu, auth, and some fs('s).
>
> A plan9 terminal can run programs, and can have a local storage file
> system, with multiple users. As for authentication, in such use case
> unix auth is little more than a farce of security theater which could
> easily be implemented in plan9 (and I think some people has) if you
> wanted to keep your three year old child from accessing your account
> but is futile for much else.
>
>>> incantation, that's beside the point. In 9p, the abstraction is a file
>>> tree, and the interface is
>>
>> auth/attach/open/read/write/clunk/walk/remove/stat.
>>
>> ioctl and VFS are suspiciously similar even though they serve less
>> generic functions.
>
> Try to do ioctl over the network.
>
>>> network operations - everything is done via /net. Thanks to private
>>> namespaces, you can transparently replace /net with some other crazy
>>> [compatible] filesystem, which might load balance over multiple
>>
>> How does that differ from presenting of a network interface by a block
>> device on UNIX? And why should avoiding system calls be considered an
>> advantage? Your VFS layer could do anything expected from /net provided
>> that file system abstraction for the resources represented under /net is
>> viable in the first place.
>
> Here is a reason: Because Plan 9 has no network-related syscalls, and
> applications contain no networking code (even when they are still
> network transparent thanks to 9P), when ipv6 was added to plan9, no
> changes were required to either any syscalls or any applications. On
> the other hand on unix they are still to this day adding ipv6 support
> to certain apps (and every app that needs to access remote resources
> needs its own networking code that is aware of each protocol it wants
> to support, etc).
>
> When ipv6 needs to be replaced, the pain in the unix software
> ecosystem will be even greater, while in plan9 it will be virtually
> painless.
>
> There are also the benefits of allowing different applications
> (namespaces) use different network stacks without requiring full
> virtualization of the whole OS (the few unix systems that have been
> able to implement this functionality have done so after many years of
> painful efforts and the result is incredibly clunky and complex), and
> I don't think any unix systems allows a single application (or
> namespace) to access *multiple* network stacks concurrently... and
> remote network stacks? don't think so either.
>
>>
>>> implemented on any system, which is true [to an extent]. But it's
>>> apparent than no others have the taste to do it as elegantly as plan 9 -
>>
>> It's not a matter of taste. There are situations, many situations
>> actually, where the file system abstraction is plainly naive. Sticking
>> with it for every application verges on being an "ideology."
>>
>> The VFS approach is by no means inferior to Plan 9's
>> everything-is-a-file, but on UNIX systems it is limited to resources
>> that can be meaningfully represented as file systems. Representing a
>> relational database as a file system is meaningless. The better
>> representation is something along the lines of the
>> System::Data::DataGrid class on Microsoft .NET framework.
>
> Ah, interesting example, isn't it sad that every database system on
> unix (or windows) needs to include its own networking code, its own
> authentication, etc.?
>
> Peace
>
> uriel



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20 23:49 Eris Discordia
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20 23:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

I was going to give it a rest. Really. But I couldn't overcome my bad
habits. They outnumber me ten to one ;-)

> You're right; it isn't. Is that good or bad? What about in an office
> environment? Same answer there?

Plan 9's aptitude for becoming easily distributed--that is, becoming
decentralized--gives rise to a centralized system when it comes to
security, because safekeeping of one auth server is much easier than
keeping track of numerous authentications/authorization databases spread
across the network.

It's good. For a _large_ organization, it's good. For the same reasons
time-sharing systems were good for university campuses. Centralization
lowers overhead--in costs, time, security, and general maintenance hassles.
Problem is, sometimes the center and the periphery are the _same_, e.g. in
home computing. And for the same reasons a time-sharing system would be bad
for home computing, an innately distributed system is also bad for it.
Needless to say, home computing doesn't mean casual or insignificant
computing. The term only denotes the individual--to contrast with
organizational--quality of the computation involved.

Decentralization in small scale either overburdens the user with complexity
or leaves them at the mercy of a _centralized_ application provider; in
safekeeping of credentials, for example. That's Microsoft's dream world of
"software as a service." Strangely, Plan 9--if it ever gets to enjoy a
large user base--demonstrates the horrors of that dream.

> Way, way out of scope. Kinda like a fusion-powered terminal.

Not like that. Biometrics is becoming dirt cheap these days.

> ...or incipient schizophrenia.

Huh?

> Would that I could force you into not using double-quotes for emphasis!

I used to use them for emphasis. Then I tried _underscores_ and reserved
double quotes for "sarcasm" and "invented/unfamiliar terms."


--On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:15 PM -0700 Geoffrey Avila
<avlg@sdsc.edu> wrote:

>
> Not (currently) a Plan 9 user, but I gotta chime in:
>
>> It seems the security ascribed to disposable machines comes from that
>> "user  data" is stored on a different, presumably safer, machine in, for
>> example,  some sort of data warehouse at a data center. This isn't a new
>> idea--actually, it's _very_ old--and it's not what happens in home (or
>> personal) computing.
>
> You're right; it isn't. Is that good or bad? What about in an office
> environment? Same answer there?
>
>>> Plan 9 respects that. Not trusting the hostowner is a waste of effort.
>>
>> Not with reliable biometric authentication, but that's out of scope here.
>>
>
> Way, way out of scope. Kinda like a fusion-powered terminal.
>
>>
>> Now, your home computer may be a true single user machine but you store
>> _some_ authentication information on it anyway; those of yours, namely.
>> Such  machine is in that respect as vulnerable as a UNIX machine. It has
>> to be  _physically_ guarded. It's no more a "disposable" machine.
>
> This is the argument I had for using Sunrays in public places at work.
> Single user, and if they were ganked from the lobby one night, the
> theives would only have a middling LCD monitor instead of a windows
> system with cached credentials.
>
>>
>> This is classic. Complication is a sign of maturation.
>
> ...or incipient schizophrenia.
>
>> by not maturing, by avoiding diversification. Before you get angry I
>> must say  that's my "personal" opinion. Nothing I'm going to "force"
>> unto you. Nothing  I _can_ force unto you.
>
>
> Would that I could force you into not using double-quotes for emphasis!
>
> -GBA
>
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20 21:46 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-20 22:41 ` Pietro Gagliardi
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20 21:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Thank you, sqweek. The second golden Golden Apple with καλλιστι on 
it is totally yours. The first one went to Russ Cox.

>  You don't care who mounts what where, because the rest of the system
> doesn't notice the namespace change.

So essentially there shouldn't be a problem with mounting on a single 
"public" namespace as long as there is one user on the system. mount 
restriction in UNIX systems was put in place because multiple users exist 
some of whom may be malicious. Virtualization and jailing will relax that 
requirement.

>  As Pietro demonstrated, no interface configuration is necessary here.

Only because the concept is hidden in Plan 9, though I don't know how. 
_Someone_ or _something_ has to decide whether to route your packets 
through, say, a ppp interface or an eth interface--when both interfaces are 
present--and to do that according to configuration. That won't happen on 
its own.

When P. G. suggested an imaginary "motorola" file server he never said how 
the file server is supposed to access the cellular network. If it's going 
to happen by tunnelling through another protocol, e.g. IP, then the 
question remains of _which_ interface to choose from. And if it's going to 
happen over some special protocol then it must occupy a place on the 
network stack over some _configured_ network interface.

On a different note, what purpose did his "-M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555" 
switches serve? Don't they qualify as interface configuration?

>  Certainly. If someone has access to, say, the physical machine, then
> they have the ability to boot whatever operating system they wish,
> potentially modified to their liking and do whatever they want with
> the hardware.

This result comes from the "disposable" machine paradigm, in which the 
machine you work at need not be in any way _significant_ to you. It doesn't 
quite match the "home computer" scheme of things. If someone manages to 
boot your home/portable personal computer they are set for collecting all 
you've stored on it. In that respect, I don't see how the "disposable" 
machine paradigm can be applicable. Your personal machine is not disposable.

It seems the security ascribed to disposable machines comes from that "user 
data" is stored on a different, presumably safer, machine in, for example, 
some sort of data warehouse at a data center. This isn't a new 
idea--actually, it's _very_ old--and it's not what happens in home (or 
personal) computing.

> Plan 9 respects that. Not trusting the hostowner is a waste of effort.

Not with reliable biometric authentication, but that's out of scope here.

>  Uh, what now? You either have an interesting definition of home
> computer or some fucked up ideas about plan 9. You only need a cpu
> server if you want to let other machines run processes on your
> machine. You only need an auth server if you want to serve resources
> to a remote machine.

Neither statement is true. On a home computer you certainly need a term. 
You'll need a cpu for a number of tasks. And you'll need auth if there's 
going to be more than one user on the system, or if you need a safe way of 
authenticating yourself to your computer. A single glenda account doesn't 
quite cut it. If you're going to access your storage you'll need some 
fs('s), too.

The bottom line is: term is _certainly_ not enough for doing all the tasks 
a *BSD does, and requiring a home computer to do all these tasks is far 
from inconceivable. One *BSD system is almost functionally equivalent to a 
combination of term, cpu, auth, and some fs('s).

>  "each machine?" I thought we were talking about my "home computer"???
>  If you have a home network, you have ONE auth server.

No. The point is if you have _one_ home machine and _multiple_ users you'll 
have to store authentication information on that same machine. It is no 
more a "disposable terminal," its security becomes as important as the 
security of a heavily used auth server. The "disposable" machine paradigm 
fails as miserably as the the traditional UNIX paradigm: one machine, many 
users.

Now, your home computer may be a true single user machine but you store 
_some_ authentication information on it anyway; those of yours, namely. 
Such machine is in that respect as vulnerable as a UNIX machine. It has to 
be _physically_ guarded. It's no more a "disposable" machine.

> incantation, that's beside the point. In 9p, the abstraction is a file
> tree, and the interface is 
auth/attach/open/read/write/clunk/walk/remove/stat.

ioctl and VFS are suspiciously similar even though they serve less generic 
functions.

> argue HTTP is simpler because it just has GET/PUT/DELETE/HEAD, but you
> have to deal with rfc822 formatted messages and different transfer
> encodings and auth mechanisms and all sorts of options coming out your
> ass.

This is classic. Complication is a sign of maturation. Plan 9 has evaded 
that by not maturing, by avoiding diversification. Before you get angry I 
must say that's my "personal" opinion. Nothing I'm going to "force" unto 
you. Nothing I _can_ force unto you.

> network operations - everything is done via /net. Thanks to private
> namespaces, you can transparently replace /net with some other crazy
> [compatible] filesystem, which might load balance over multiple

How does that differ from presenting of a network interface by a block 
device on UNIX? And why should avoiding system calls be considered an 
advantage? Your VFS layer could do anything expected from /net provided 
that file system abstraction for the resources represented under /net is 
viable in the first place.

> implemented on any system, which is true [to an extent]. But it's
> apparent than no others have the taste to do it as elegantly as plan 9 -

It's not a matter of taste. There are situations, many situations actually, 
where the file system abstraction is plainly naive. Sticking with it for 
every application verges on being an "ideology."

The VFS approach is by no means inferior to Plan 9's everything-is-a-file, 
but on UNIX systems it is limited to resources that can be meaningfully 
represented as file systems. Representing a relational database as a file 
system is meaningless. The better representation is something along the 
lines of the System::Data::DataGrid class on Microsoft .NET framework.

>  Eris, if you've further issues to raise, we should take this off-list.

No more "issues." I simply rest my case here.

--On Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:08 AM +0800 sqweek <sqweek@gmail.com> 
wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Eris Discordia
> <eris.discordia@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>  No. Private namespaces.
>>
>> And how does that solve the problem of whom to trust with mounting?
>
>  You don't care who mounts what where, because the rest of the system
> doesn't notice the namespace change. But it sounds like what you're
> really talking about is who to trust with device access, so lets roll
> with that.
>
>> Or with configuring a network interface?
>
>  As Pietro demonstrated, no interface configuration is necessary here.
>
>> If someone has access to, say, eth0 then
>> they have access to eth0. No amount of private namespaces keeps them from
>> reading everything that goes through eth0, including other users'
>> unencrypted traffic.
>
>  Certainly. If someone has access to, say, the physical machine, then
> they have the ability to boot whatever operating system they wish,
> potentially modified to their liking and do whatever they want with
> the hardware. Plan 9 respects that. Not trusting the hostowner is a
> waste of effort.
>
>> Plan 9's model says if you have physical access to a terminal there is no
>> way to secure _that_ terminal against your mischief. Therefore, it
>> totally trusts you _that_ terminal. However, your home computer doesn't
>> run only a terminal. To be usable, it has to run at least a cpu and an
>> auth, in addition to a term.
>
>  Uh, what now? You either have an interesting definition of home
> computer or some fucked up ideas about plan 9. You only need a cpu
> server if you want to let other machines run processes on your
> machine. You only need an auth server if you want to serve resources
> to a remote machine.
>
>> Now, where is the difference between running
>> authentication on the same machine as the terminal and the traditional
>> UNIX way of keeping authentication/authorization databases on each
>> machine?
>
>  "each machine?" I thought we were talking about my "home computer"???
>  If you have a home network, you have ONE auth server.
>
>>>  Sorry, that should have been "no such file or directory". You need a
>>> mkdir.
>>
>> The directory could've been there beforehand.
>
>  Well allow me to present a more concise set of commands:
>
>
>  (the file was there beforehand :D)
>
>> In any case, your deflection
>> has nothing to do with the fact that Pietro Gagliardi's demand for "a few
>> commands" to accomplish a certain task has been supplied with an adequate
>> UNIX answer.
>>
>> He's under the false impression that abstraction actually _does_ things,
>> and that because Plan 9 has an everything-is-a-file model it is any more
>> trivial to access a cell phone over its proprietary communication
>> protocol over the cellular network. An impression perpetuated by the
>> 9people.
>
>  Sure, at the end of the day you're still pushing the same packets
> over the same network. However, there is one thing abstraction does:
> it defines an interface. Sure, each file server has its own
> incantation, that's beside the point. In 9p, the abstraction is a file
> tree, and the interface is
> auth/attach/open/read/write/clunk/walk/remove/stat.
>  The nice part about the interface is it is simple and consistent.
> Once you know what each of those messages mean, you are set - there
> aren't really any sharp corners to watch out for. I mean you could
> argue HTTP is simpler because it just has GET/PUT/DELETE/HEAD, but you
> have to deal with rfc822 formatted messages and different transfer
> encodings and auth mechanisms and all sorts of options coming out your
> ass.
>  Mind you, a lot of the time you only care about files and
> open/read/write/clunk are all you need. Case in point, awk or rc in
> plan 9 have zero networking code, yet it is entirely possible to have
> them communicate over tcp or whatever protocols are supported in /net
> since they can open/read/write. In fact, there are no syscalls for
> network operations - everything is done via /net. Thanks to private
> namespaces, you can transparently replace /net with some other crazy
> [compatible] filesystem, which might load balance over multiple
> connections or somesuch. Network transparency means you can use /net
> from a different machine and everything just works - hang around some
> less technical folk sometime and tell me NAT doesn't deserve to die.
> Even with resources like http://portforward.com available, port
> forwarding is an impassable obstacle for many people.
>  I'd like to take a moment to note your unix example used the same
> abstraction.  You said elsewhere that plan 9's filesystems could be
> implemented on any system, which is true [to an extent]. But it's
> apparent than no others have the taste to do it as elegantly as plan 9 -
> it's all MORE APPS (netcat), MORE FEATURES (tcp code in gawk/bash),
> MOOORRREE CODE.
>
>  Eris, if you've further issues to raise, we should take this off-list.
> -sqweek
>




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20 13:01 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-20 13:22 ` Sander van Dijk
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20 13:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Code page 1252, ANSI Latin I. Presumably the one most widely used.

--On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 11:44 AM +0200 Sander van Dijk
<a.h.vandijk@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 8/20/08, Eris Discordia <eris.discordia@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> [...] Figured it could as well be 8-bit ASCII.
>
> Which one?
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20 12:56 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-20 18:08 ` sqweek
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20 12:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

>  The ascii that is 8 bits is not the true ascii.

I answered that one.

>  No. Private namespaces.

And how does that solve the problem of whom to trust with mounting? Or with
configuring a network interface? If someone has access to, say, eth0 then
they have access to eth0. No amount of private namespaces keeps them from
reading everything that goes through eth0, including other users'
unencrypted traffic.

Plan 9's model says if you have physical access to a terminal there is no
way to secure _that_ terminal against your mischief. Therefore, it totally
trusts you _that_ terminal. However, your home computer doesn't run only a
terminal. To be usable, it has to run at least a cpu and an auth, in
addition to a term. Now, where is the difference between running
authentication on the same machine as the terminal and the traditional UNIX
way of keeping authentication/authorization databases on each machine? Or
from Kerberos' distributed authentication model?

>  Sorry, that should have been "no such file or directory". You need a
> mkdir.

The directory could've been there beforehand. In any case, your deflection
has nothing to do with the fact that Pietro Gagliardi's demand for "a few
commands" to accomplish a certain task has been supplied with an adequate
UNIX answer.

He's under the false impression that abstraction actually _does_ things,
and that because Plan 9 has an everything-is-a-file model it is any more
trivial to access a cell phone over its proprietary communication protocol
over the cellular network. An impression perpetuated by the 9people.

--On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 5:53 PM +0800 sqweek <sqweek@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Eris Discordia
> <eris.discordia@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>  Wow. Does memorising codepoints fall under your job description aswell?
>>
>> No. I looked it up in Microsoft Windows' Character Map. Saw it was below
>> 255. Knew UTF-8 corresponds to ASCII in lower character codes (not sure
>> 7-bit or 8-bit). Figured it could as well be 8-bit ASCII.
>
>  The ascii that is 8 bits is not the true ascii.
>
>>>  ifconfig: only root can do that
>>>  mount: only root can do that
>>
>> Funny, but then not funny.
>>
>> What's the Plan 9 way of solving that? Trusting the user at the terminal?
>
>  No. Private namespaces.
>
>>>  cp: /mnt/cell: permission denied
>>
>> Why "permission denied?"
>
>  Sorry, that should have been "no such file or directory". You need a
> mkdir. -sqweek
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20 12:36 Eris Discordia
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20 12:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Read the rest of the paragraph you're responding to. Or "stop feeding the
troll" as the big bosses advised you.

--On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 11:12 AM +0100 matt
<mattmobile@proweb.co.uk> wrote:

>
>>
>> What's the Plan 9 way of solving that? Trusting the user at the
>> terminal?
>
> yes, no other things required, you fail (as per usual)
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20  9:44 Eris Discordia
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20  9:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> If Mr. Edison thought a bit more, he wouldn't have to sweat so much.

But it was Tesla who died in poverty, I remember. And it's his spectre
that's attracting the "Tesla coil" conspiracy theories. Not to mention the
horrendous amount of baseless claims around his inventions and discoveries.
Edison, or Edison's "fans," seem to have been much less controversial and
much more upright. Much more productive, too. Tesla worked for both Thomas
Edison and George Westinghouse. Why did _he_ die a pauper?

--On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:21 AM +0100 matt
<mattmobile@proweb.co.uk> wrote:

>
>>
>> That stack has been implemented in vim. There're nearly 500 different
>> syntax matching and highlighting schemes for vim, and there's a simple
>> language for writing your own schemes. Why not use vi?
> To paraphrase Tesla :
>
> If Mr. Edison thought a bit more, he wouldn't have to sweat so much.
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20  9:34 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-20 11:56 ` Robert William Fuller
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20  9:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> I don't get this, ™ is the unicode character 2122, not ASCII. I agree
> it could be  generated on a MS-DOS pretty much any byte sequence could
> be, but I doubt even DOS 6.22 had unicode support, so you would have to
> translate it to a code page reprisentation and load the correct fonts.

You're right. It's U+2122. Nonetheless, it's also extended ASCII 153, and 
many DOS programs easily used that to display a ™. I guess that was the 
"default" code page.

MS-DOS never had Unicode support. Neither did any Windows version up to 
3.1, NT 3.5, and 95. NT 4 introduced it into the Microsoft sphere in 1996. 
In 5-6 years--from 1996 to 2001--Windows surpassed Plan 9 in Unicode 
handling, in all practical aspects.

W3C HTML 4.x (and most of previous versions, I guess) and XHTML 1.1 also 
support it as &#153, so it's pretty "standard." You can validate any 
otherwise valid XHTML document containing it against

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd,

and get a pass.

--On Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:10 AM +0100 Steve Simon 
<steve@quintile.net> wrote:

>> Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by
>> [Alt]+0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right?
>
> nope, Alt,T,M
>
>> Well below 255, it's
>> just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO 8859.
>> You  could generate that character even on MS-DOS.
>
> I don't get this, ™ is the unicode character 2122, not ASCII. I agree
> it could be  generated on a MS-DOS pretty much any byte sequence could
> be, but I doubt even DOS 6.22 had unicode support, so you would have to
> translate it to a code page reprisentation and load the correct fonts.
>
> -Steve
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20  8:33 Eris Discordia
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20  8:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> should be "Just stay away from Acme if you aren't lucky enough to be
> stuck with Plan 9".

Could be. Only _luck_ could make you that miserable; reason does a better
job. Also, you could be a little funnier.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:11 PM -0700 Skip Tavakkolian
<9nut@9netics.com> wrote:

>> Just stay away from Acme if you aren't stuck with Plan 9.
>
> should be "Just stay away from Acme if you aren't lucky enough to be
> stuck with Plan 9".
>
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20  8:29 Eris Discordia
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20  8:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> Oh, I'm waiting for a phone call before bed. What the hell.

Sleep tight. Every night.

> My job includes some programming, some document writing, lots of reading.

Programming _for_ Plan 9? Document writing _for_ Plan 9? Reading _about_
Plan 9?

I'm, of course, benignly assuming you create "usable" programs and
documents. And read "useful" things. Couldn't Windows do the job? Or
FreeBSD? Or what-have-you Linux? And better, easier?

> I've never been employed to count columns or fold lines.

Neither have I. You _still_ haven't figured out the difference between a
work/task and a job/profession?

> interface encourages good mental habits that help me produce
> quality stuff.

Could your "quality" by any chance be _quantified_?

> I find the applications and interfaces in Plan 9 to be far more
> consistent and convenient than in other systems. That's true both
> for programming interfaces and user interfaces. This means I can
> let the system do its job and get out of my way without having to
> think about it as much as I do elsewhere.

Rationale? Examples? Comparison? Why would anyone else care how _you_ find
it? Tell me how _I_ can do it. Tell _them_ how they can do it.

> do for me, that's fine (academically, I might speculate on why).

Academically, speculate on _what_ exactly Plan 9 does for you. Also, share
your speculations.

> using the system productively are either delusional or just don't
> exist is highly insulting.

I don't remember having called anyone "delusional" or "non-existent."

The key here is that every new person who comes to 9fans and asks a few
questions about very mundane things available elsewhere gets pathologically
flamed about why "those darned things" shouldn't exist and how Plan 9 is so
great by "not having them" and that they should go "do it themselves" if
it's out of the 9people's narrow scopes/niches/specialization. _That's_
insulting, especially from a group who claim to offer--yes, when it's up
for grabs and web sites say cool things about it it's an offer--a
"complete" OS.

Why not put one these flames at a place visible from
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/?

Just look at the sort of "solutions" this thread's originator has received.
They've been told to use awk for matching HTML tags. Or to type "Edit ="
and then do the acrobatics whenever they need to know their position in
code--oh, and no "columns."

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:29 PM -0400 a@9srv.net wrote:

> // Bite if you please. Hook, line, and sinker ;-)
>
> Oh, I'm waiting for a phone call before bed. What the hell.
>
> My job has nothing to do with your 1-3. I agree with Steve exactly: I
> use Plan 9 because it allows me to get my job done easier. My job
> includes some programming, some document writing, lots of
> reading. I've never been employed to count columns or fold lines. I
> use Acme (even when not on Plan 9) because, at least for me, the
> interface encourages good mental habits that help me produce
> quality stuff.
>
> I find the applications and interfaces in Plan 9 to be far more
> consistent and convenient than in other systems. That's true both
> for programming interfaces and user interfaces. This means I can
> let the system do its job and get out of my way without having to
> think about it as much as I do elsewhere.
>
> You're also engaging in all sorts of poor logic in the "No True
> Scotsman" family in order to try and exclude folks like Coraid
> who're really excellent counter-examples to your claims: they
> use Plan 9 not for (the benefit of) Plan 9, but because it allows them
> to build products (for other people who likely have no idea Plan 9
> is involved) easier.
>
> If Acme (or Plan 9 generally) don't fit your style well, that's fine. If
> the interfaces don't have the same beneficial effects for you as they
> do for me, that's fine (academically, I might speculate on why).
> Feel free not to use it. But to imply that people who are actually
> using the system productively are either delusional or just don't
> exist is highly insulting.
>
> Anthony
>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20  8:04 Eris Discordia
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20  8:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> No, that's not the UNIX philosophy. That's the X/Linux/GNU philosophy. Go
> read "Program Design in the UNIX Environment" by Kernighan and Pike to
> see what I mean.

Get educated. Don't you even know where X came from?

Just a funny idea: have you noticed that the "Kernighan, Pike, Ritchie, 
Thomspon" quartet always lacks two legs? Am I right on this one? There is 
K&R, K&P, and P&T. Have yet to see P&R, is there one?

> In Plan 9, it's Alt t m, as three individual keystrokes. See keyboard(6)
> to find out what your system would see as Alt.  You don't need to keep
> the Alt held down. Now send yourself an email with Alt f a (the for all
> character) and Alt * P (uppercase pi)

How about going back to four buckey bits, hacker? For your information, Pi 
is within ISO 8859, 8859-7 to be precise. Now you do one thing: enter a 
daleth, put one rafe above it--i.e. "דֿ"--, and tell me the result.

I do Windows. When I need to type in another language--and I often need 
that for three languages--I press [Alt]+[Shift] and I get the keyboard 
layout for that language. The right scan codes go to the right characters 
codes which in turn go to the right glyphs for every major alphabet/script 
on Earth, including right-to-left scripts.

When I need a Unicode character out of the ordinary (like this one, "㊪") 
I press [Alt] and hold it, press [+] on numeric keypad once, then type in 
the hexadecimal code for that character. "Any" two-byte Unicode character. 
I learn the code out of Character Map from which I can get the character 
even more easily.

http://www.fileformat.info/tip/microsoft/enter_unicode.htm

> Impressive. Someone learned something from us after all. (1985 -- when
> did curl come out?)

"Us?" What is 1985? Your year of birth or Plan 9's or what?

cURL's author didn't need to learn from "you"--whoever your "you" 
denotes--to do a simple job.

Here's its history: http://curl.haxx.se/docs/history.html.

It began in 1997. Gopher support was removed soon after because Gopher is a 
dead (or dying?)protocol.

> It would be about 75% shorter. And you can't just use the system calls.
> libc is built around subroutines. In all, Rob Pike got connected to an IP
> address in 2 lines of code compared to ~20 for sockets. ("The Good, The
> Bad, and The Ugly")

When and where did Rob Pike do it? Didn't he incidentally leverage two (or 
more) additional abstraction layers over the network stack and the socket 
abstraction to achieve that?

I can "get connected to an IP address"--overlooking your glaring ignorance 
about the fact that on IP (Internet Protocol) machines "connect" to 
_endpoints_ not "IP addresses"--in a one liner on Microsoft .NET framework. 
Nevertheless, that doesn't make .NET framework my platform of choice for 
programming. Boast it when you can _do_ it. Whatever I tell you I _can_ do, 
I _can_ do. Whatever I _can't_ do, I keep to myself.

> No comment.

"Thank you, again."

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:08 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi 
<pietro10@mac.com> wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:39 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
>
>>> No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX
>>> philosophy,
>>> not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of
>>> where
>>> to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows
>>> (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?)
>>
>> I guess "the UNIX philosophy"--whatever that vague phrase is
>> supposed to mean--contains "the X philosophy." The core dictum goes:
>> "mechanism, not policy." That is, they give you the "femur," you
>> determine its use. Russ Cox knows this better; he's the one at the
>> MIT. "The Plan 9 philosophy" goes as far as telling you to "not ask
>> for a ruler" in your text editor (ruler in vi := a pair of numbers;
>> column, row).
>
> No, that's not the UNIX philosophy. That's the X/Linux/GNU philosophy. Go
> read "Program Design in the UNIX Environment" by Kernighan and Pike to
> see what I mean.
>
>>
>>
>>> Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder
>>> system).
>>> How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark
>>> symbol? Do
>>> yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some
>>> characters
>>> and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my
>>> point.
>>> Otherwise, you found a bug.
>>
>> Plan 9 is not _my_ pet OS. 9people, and you who are too young to be
>> a 9person, are taking pride in "UTF-8." That's been the gesture for
>> a over a decade. Now, it's old, it's insignificant, and Plan 9
>> doesn't even deliver. Anyway, _you_ made a claim. You have to prove
>> it. I don't even run Plan 9 anymore. Gave it up.
>>
>> Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt]
>> +0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right? Well below 255, it's
>> just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO
>> 8859. You could generate that character even on MS-DOS.
>>
>> Though, his email's header says the charset if UTF-8. No big deal.
>
> In Plan 9, it's Alt t m, as three individual keystrokes. See keyboard(6)
> to find out what your system would see as Alt.  You don't need to keep
> the Alt held down. Now send yourself an email with Alt f a (the for all
> character) and Alt * P (uppercase pi)
>
>>
>>
>>> 	gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp		# Demonstration; don't try this
>>> 	motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555
>>> 	cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg
>>
>> Zing! Who wrote the fs behind /n/cell? You got Morotola to write it
>> for you?
>>
>> $ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg
>> $ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 5555"
>> $ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell
>> $ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/
>>
>> (You gotta use an archaic version of curl. Gopher support was
>> removed when mammoths roamed the Earth)
>>
>> Of course, motofs and cellnetif are imaginary, just like your
>> "motorola." The problem is the same on UNIX and Plan 9, but on UNIX
>> it is much more likely that you find someone who solved it before.
>> And it is much less likely that someone tells you it isn't "the way
>> to do it."
>>
>> Incidentally, someone I know has recently bought a Motorola A1200
>> that runs a nice tiny Linux.
>
> Impressive. Someone learned something from us after all. (1985 -- when
> did curl come out?)
>
>>
>>
>>> Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you?
>>
>> Write that in Plan 9 system calls. That is what _you_ use, don't you?
>>
>
> It would be about 75% shorter. And you can't just use the system calls.
> libc is built around subroutines. In all, Rob Pike got connected to an IP
> address in 2 lines of code compared to ~20 for sockets. ("The Good, The
> Bad, and The Ugly")
>
>>> Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just
>>> open your
>>> eyes.
>>
>> "Thank you."
>
> No comment.
>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20  1:39 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-20  2:08 ` Pietro Gagliardi
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20  1:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy,
> not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where
> to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows
> (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?)

I guess "the UNIX philosophy"--whatever that vague phrase is supposed to 
mean--contains "the X philosophy." The core dictum goes: "mechanism, not 
policy." That is, they give you the "femur," you determine its use. Russ 
Cox knows this better; he's the one at the MIT. "The Plan 9 philosophy" 
goes as far as telling you to "not ask for a ruler" in your text editor 
(ruler in vi := a pair of numbers; column, row).

> Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system).
> How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do
> yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some characters
> and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my point.
> Otherwise, you found a bug.

Plan 9 is not _my_ pet OS. 9people, and you who are too young to be a 
9person, are taking pride in "UTF-8." That's been the gesture for a over a 
decade. Now, it's old, it's insignificant, and Plan 9 doesn't even deliver. 
Anyway, _you_ made a claim. You have to prove it. I don't even run Plan 9 
anymore. Gave it up.

Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by 
[Alt]+0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right? Well below 255, it's 
just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO 8859. You 
could generate that character even on MS-DOS.

Though, his email's header says the charset if UTF-8. No big deal.

> 	gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp		# Demonstration; don't try this
> 	motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555
> 	cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg

Zing! Who wrote the fs behind /n/cell? You got Morotola to write it for you?

$ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg
$ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 5555"
$ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell
$ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/

(You gotta use an archaic version of curl. Gopher support was removed when 
mammoths roamed the Earth)

Of course, motofs and cellnetif are imaginary, just like your "motorola." 
The problem is the same on UNIX and Plan 9, but on UNIX it is much more 
likely that you find someone who solved it before. And it is much less 
likely that someone tells you it isn't "the way to do it."

Incidentally, someone I know has recently bought a Motorola A1200 that runs 
a nice tiny Linux.

> Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you?

Write that in Plan 9 system calls. That is what _you_ use, don't you?

The fs's are only abstraction layers. You could implement them on _any_ 
system. Given you were dour enough to do it. Writing a particular fs is a 
problem. Plan 9 doesn't make it any more trivial. Oh, don't tell me it's 
got 9P. 9P could be any text-based protocol. What's the difference between 
9P-over-IP and HTTP? Or SOAP? Or XML-WS?

> Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open your
> eyes.

"Thank you."

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:30 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi 
<pietro10@mac.com> wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
>>> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler.
>>
>> A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people
>> claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not
>> UNIX?" Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah?
>
> No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX philosophy,
> not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of where
> to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows
> (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?)
>
>>> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]"
>>
>> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one
>> email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words
>> "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or
>> "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's
>> see if "the mail goes through."
>>
>
> Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder system).
> How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark symbol? Do
> yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some characters
> and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my point.
> Otherwise, you found a bug.
>
>>> "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even
>>> devices
>>> and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file
>>> from
>>> a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the
>>> filesystem report how much free space is left without running a
>>> million
>>> commands or typing a thousand lines of code.
>>
>> The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was
>> paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was
>> built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem
>> begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP.
>>
>> Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already?
>> Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded
>> OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for
>> some other livelier OS?
>>
>> Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy.
>>
>
> My rhetoric is not empty. I am not saying go ahead and write that 9P. I'm
> saying the jobs are trivial, only three lines of rc:
>
> 	gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp		# Demonstration; don't try this
> 	motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555
> 	cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg
>
> Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you?
>
> As for filesystem usage,
>
> 	echo fsys all df | con -l /srv/fscons
>
> Go look up the source for GNU df, and tell me if it's that simple.
>
>>> If you are not like that, leave.
>>
>> No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left.
>> The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the
>> thread's originator.
>>
>
> Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open your
> eyes.
>
> On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
>
>> What exactly do you Get Done (tm) on Plan 9? I mean, aren't there
>> easier ways to do it? If yes, staying on Plan 9 is simply "fanity"--
>> a la vanity-- and "fanity" is beyond reason; my reason, at least. If
>> no, how come your job's so specific that can't be done on much more
>> widely used systems? Probably it's just 1-3.
>
> - Programming in userland: mainly compiler design, along with a few other
> projects.
> - Document typesetting (I love troff). That's not on your list, is it?
> - Goofing off: lots of free games
>
> The point of this all?
>
> Plan 9 is not JUST a research system. It is a complete operating system.
> It has great tools for making greater tools, or for just increasing (or
> decreasing) your productivity. If you're too blunt to care, fuck off.
> You've done that to us already, on many occasions.
>
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20  0:30 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-20  3:34 ` geoff
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20  0:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> thanks for setting me straight.  for some reason, i thought my company
> had shipped several thousand units based on plan 9.  i don't know what
> would have given me that idea.

Somebody would make a bad choice anyway. Microsoft shipped "thousands" of
copies of Microsoft Bob before they learnt about their mistake. Let's see
if your company, founded 2000, survives its Coraid Bob. And I hear your
primary source of sustenance is an AoE driver for _Linux_. You're leeching
another OS's user base and boasting doing Plan 9? Where would you be
without "Linux Support for EtherDrive (R) Storage?"
(http://support.coraid.com/support/linux/)

> also, could you send me the new subtraction table we're supposed
> to be using.
>
> [Pike90] R. Pike, D. Presotto, K. Thompson, H. Trickey,
> ``Plan 9 from Bell Labs'',
> .I
> UKUUG Proc. of the Summer 1990 Conf. ,
> London, England,
> 1990.

Yes. According to Wikipedia:

"It was developed as the research successor to Unix by the Computing
Sciences Research Center at Bell Labs between the mid-1980s and 2002."

Mid-1980s ~ 1985
Current date (here) = August 20, 2008

2008 - 1985 + 1 = 24. Update your table.

Apparently, Plan 9 was being developed some years before the paper. You
know, you gotta do something with the free time on your hand. Create an OS,
for example. And pull a paper out of it after some years.

By the way, what exactly happened to Plan 9 on 2002? Was it "dismantled?"
Or did they shut the "furnace" down?

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:34 PM -0400 erik quanstrom
<quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

>> It's a "research"
>> platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do
>> and  how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege."
>
> thanks for setting me straight.  for some reason, i thought my company
> had shipped several thousand units based on plan 9.  i don't know what
> would have given me that idea.
>
>> No wonder
>> it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's
>> "nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of
>> "development."
>
> also, could you send me the new subtraction table we're supposed
> to be using.
>
> [Pike90] R. Pike, D. Presotto, K. Thompson, H. Trickey,
> ``Plan 9 from Bell Labs'',
> .I
> UKUUG Proc. of the Summer 1990 Conf. ,
> London, England,
> 1990.
>
> - erik
>
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-20  0:10 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-20  2:29 ` a
  2008-08-20  8:01 ` Steve Simon
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-20  0:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> Its because I want to "Get my job done"™ that I use plan9.

Bite if you please. Hook, line, and sinker ;-)

What's your job?

1. Maintaining a Plan 9 system?
2. Programming a Plan 9 system?
3. Researching a Plan 9 system?
4. Or you got some job other than jobs created _around_ Plan 9 and you use 
Plan 9?

(1) through (3) mean Plan 9 is your "job." You feed off of it. Dealing with 
its quirks is your business. Well, that's your lot. Others are probably 
luckier.

If your "job" is not 1-3 and you have a "computer job" tell me who has 
allowed you to use a research platform in production environment? Are you 
at Rangboom or Coraid, or implementing one of the _few_ applications Plan 9 
has found in the "Real World?" Are you a freelancer? What sort of customers 
do you have?

What exactly do you Get Done (tm) on Plan 9? I mean, aren't there easier 
ways to do it? If yes, staying on Plan 9 is simply "fanity"--a la vanity-- 
and "fanity" is beyond reason; my reason, at least. If no, how come your 
job's so specific that can't be done on much more widely used systems? 
Probably it's just 1-3.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 11:26 PM +0100 Steve Simon 
<steve@quintile.net> wrote:

>> Plan 9 and the related software just
>> isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm).
>
> Sorry, I have to bite.
>
> Its because I want to "Get my job done"™ that I use plan9.
>
> -Steve
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-19 23:51 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-20  0:30 ` Pietro Gagliardi
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-19 23:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> Wrong on so many levels.

Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's 
_right_ on so many levels.

> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler.

A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed 
to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not UNIX?" Ahem... 
GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah?

> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]"

Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email 
through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם 
עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم" 
(Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes 
through."

> "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices
> and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from
> a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the
> filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million
> commands or typing a thousand lines of code.

The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved 
years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX, 
and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to 
get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP.

Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already? Does 
it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you 
do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier 
OS?

Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy.

> If you are not like that, leave.

No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post 
was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's 
originator.


--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:25 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi 
<pietro10@mac.com> wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
>
>> That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've
>> gone through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related
>> software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done
>> (tm). It's a "research" platform for those who want to "tell" other
>> people what they should do and how they should do it and why any
>> other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder it has remained as
>> minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's "nimble," don't
>> believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development."
>
> Wrong on so many levels. Plan 9 lets you Get The Job Done(TM), but in a
> completely different way from *your* approach. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way:
> tools that make jobs simpler. This is augmented by 33 libraries that
> provide common utilities in a transparent way. "Everything is a UTF-8
> text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages
> transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network to a
> mobile phone or without running a million commands. If you are not like
> that, leave.
>
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-19 22:00 Eris Discordia
  2008-08-19 22:12 ` andrey mirtchovski
                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-08-19 22:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: wendellxe, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Just stay away from Acme if you aren't stuck with Plan 9. None of the
features you need or want are supported in Acme out-of-the-box. Not in any
sane, meaningful way. And if you tell the 9people you need them or want
them they'll either tell you it isn't "worth" it, or it isn't "meant" to be
done that way, or go "do it yourself." They don't understand some people
use computers for different reasons than wasting their time "for"
computers, and in ways far different from their way.

That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've gone
through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related software just
isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done (tm). It's a "research"
platform for those who want to "tell" other people what they should do and
how they should do it and why any other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder
it has remained as minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's
"nimble," don't believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development."

In any case, Acme is "not" comparable to vi or emacs. Themselves far
inferior to Microsoft Visual Studio, from a practical standpoint. You're
coding on Windows, go for VS .NET Express Edition, free as the air you
breathe but not free as the thoughts you think. You're coding on some
UNIX-like, go for vi or emacs, a matter of taste--I like vi better. You're
"coding" on Plan 9--makes me feel sorry for you--well, Acme is the "best"
thing you can expect. Inbreeding is bound to bring out the worst of
recessive traits; savor them :-P

Finally, if you're going to stay with the 9madness I wish you very good
luck. You're going to need it. Really.

--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:52 AM -0700 Wendell xe
<wendellxe@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try
> (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and
> playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be
> even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code.
>
> Searching the 9fans archive, I found admonitions that you have to learn
> Acme's very different operating paradigm, but no specific advice. So I'm
> posting here a list of editor features I miss in Acme. For each item,
> what is the Acme way of approaching it?
>
> I hope that the replys in this thread will serve as a reference for
> others trying to learn Acme.
>
> 01. Toggle on/off line wrapping
> 02. Toggle on/off EOL character display
> 03. Display line numbers
> 04. Display ruler
> 05. Rectangluar block selection
> 06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item
> 07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs
> 08. Syntax highlighting of code
> 09. Code folding
> 10. Code clips/completion
> 11. Bookmarks
> 12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows
> 13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line
> 14. Customize the color scheme
> 15. Change fonts
> 16. HTML tag matching
> 17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor
> 18. Display right-to-left text
>
> Also, regarding Acme's use as a file browser:
>
> 19. Open new directories in the same window, so that you don't get a
> desktop full of windows as you drill down through a directory tree.
>
>
>
>
>
>







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
@ 2008-08-19 15:52 Wendell xe
  2008-08-19 16:01 ` ron minnich
                   ` (6 more replies)
  0 siblings, 7 replies; 117+ messages in thread
From: Wendell xe @ 2008-08-19 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Seeking an alternative to vi and emacs, I've been giving Acme a try (acme-sac, actually). After reading the articles and man pages and playing with it for a few days, I'll admit I don't see how Acme could be even remotely competitive with vim/emacs for editing code.

Searching the 9fans archive, I found admonitions that you have to learn Acme's very different operating paradigm, but no specific advice. So I'm posting here a list of editor features I miss in Acme. For each item, what is the Acme way of approaching it?

I hope that the replys in this thread will serve as a reference for others trying to learn Acme.

01. Toggle on/off line wrapping
02. Toggle on/off EOL character display
03. Display line numbers
04. Display ruler
05. Rectangluar block selection
06. Search and replace with confirmation at each item
07. Automatic insertion of spaces for tabs
08. Syntax highlighting of code
09. Code folding
10. Code clips/completion
11. Bookmarks
12. Display file diff with locked parallel windows
13. Customize the contextual display of commands in the tag line
14. Customize the color scheme
15. Change fonts
16. HTML tag matching
17. Display (in status bar?) the Unicode ID of glyph at cursor
18. Display right-to-left text

Also, regarding Acme's use as a file browser:

19. Open new directories in the same window, so that you don't get a desktop full of windows as you drill down through a directory tree.








^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 117+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-04-05 16:19 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 117+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2008-08-20  9:03 [9fans] Using the Acme Editor Eris Discordia
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2008-08-24 17:13 Eris Discordia
2008-08-25  3:57 ` Michaelian Ennis
2008-08-24 16:52 Eris Discordia
2008-08-24  8:20 erik quanstrom
2008-08-21 17:36 Eris Discordia
2008-08-21 20:39 ` ron minnich
2008-08-21 22:11   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-22  2:58     ` Federico G. Benavento
2008-08-22  6:13     ` Andrew Simmons
2008-08-22  9:41       ` hiro
2008-08-21 17:20 Eris Discordia
2008-08-21 16:39 Eris Discordia
2008-08-21 17:11 ` ron minnich
2008-08-21 18:29   ` hiro
2008-08-20 23:49 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 21:46 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 22:41 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20 23:15 ` Geoffrey Avila
2008-08-21  7:42 ` Uriel
2008-08-21 10:58   ` erik quanstrom
2008-08-21 13:25     ` john
2008-08-21 13:31     ` David Leimbach
2008-08-21 16:59   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-21 17:14     ` ron minnich
2008-08-21 10:36 ` erik quanstrom
2008-08-20 13:01 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 13:22 ` Sander van Dijk
2008-08-20 12:56 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 18:08 ` sqweek
2008-08-20 18:58   ` erik quanstrom
2008-08-20 19:47     ` sqweek
2008-08-20 12:36 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  9:44 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  9:34 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 11:56 ` Robert William Fuller
2008-08-20 12:25   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  8:33 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  8:29 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  8:04 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  1:39 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  2:08 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20  2:13 ` Iruata Souza
2008-08-20  8:08   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  5:02 ` sqweek
2008-08-20  9:15   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  9:44     ` Sander van Dijk
2008-08-20  9:53     ` sqweek
2008-08-20 10:12     ` matt
2008-08-20 12:27       ` Bruce Ellis
2008-08-20 16:23     ` Iruata Souza
2008-08-20  8:10 ` Steve Simon
2008-08-20  0:30 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  3:34 ` geoff
2008-08-20  3:43   ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20  3:48     ` Bruce Ellis
2008-08-20  8:42   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  0:10 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  2:29 ` a
2008-08-20  8:01 ` Steve Simon
2008-08-19 23:51 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  0:30 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20  1:31 ` Iruata Souza
2008-08-20  1:43   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  2:00     ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20  7:03       ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  7:36         ` bb
2008-08-21  0:03     ` Dan Cross
2008-08-24  7:27 ` John Waters
2008-08-24 18:14   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-25  5:43     ` John Waters
2008-08-19 22:00 Eris Discordia
2008-08-19 22:12 ` andrey mirtchovski
2008-08-19 23:14   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  3:12   ` Skip Tavakkolian
2008-08-20  3:17     ` andrey mirtchovski
2008-08-20  8:31     ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-19 22:14 ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2008-08-19 22:26   ` Steve Simon
2008-08-19 23:27   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-19 23:36     ` Jonathan Cast
2008-08-20  0:42       ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  2:08     ` a
2008-08-20  8:06       ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  3:26     ` Skip Tavakkolian
2008-08-20  3:31       ` Bruce Ellis
2008-08-20  8:41       ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-19 22:25 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-19 22:31   ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-19 22:46     ` Federico G. Benavento
2008-08-20  0:31       ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-19 23:03     ` Benjamin Huntsman
2008-08-20  0:34       ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  0:58         ` Benjamin Huntsman
2008-08-19 22:34 ` erik quanstrom
2008-08-20  3:11 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2008-08-19 15:52 Wendell xe
2008-08-19 16:01 ` ron minnich
2008-08-19 16:11 ` erik quanstrom
2008-08-19 21:23   ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2008-08-19 16:31 ` Robert Raschke
2008-08-19 21:00   ` Steve Simon
2008-08-19 17:50 ` Ramon de Vera
2008-08-19 17:58 ` Russ Cox
2008-10-22 12:37   ` Rudolf Sykora
2008-10-23 18:26     ` Rudolf Sykora
2008-10-23 20:17       ` yy
2008-10-24 17:51     ` Russ Cox
2008-10-24 18:17       ` Rudolf Sykora
2009-04-05 16:19       ` Rudolf Sykora
2008-08-19 20:22 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-19 21:24   ` Iruata Souza
2008-08-20  0:28     ` David Leimbach
2008-08-20  3:54 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20  3:56   ` Bruce Ellis
2008-08-20  8:48   ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20  9:21     ` matt

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