From: Eris Discordia <eris.discordia@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:20:34 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <41EF4FA991D5D36DDDF80AF4@computer> (raw)
> namespaces are not public in the sense that they are visible to all
> processes.
I was trying to compare UNIX to Plan 9. Apparently, UNIX processes share a
single "public" namespace which therefore has to be protected by access
privileges.
> since this started out as a discussion of terminals, i should point out
> that terminals by definition have a single user at a time.
What about the so-called "standalone" terminals (~ home computers)? My
intention was to equate a single user UNIX to a Plan 9 standalone terminal.
It's the same difference, I suppose.
> i'm not sure what passes for unix these days, but linux at least
> does not present network interfaces as block devices. there is no
> /dev/eth0.
The point is this can be done even if it hasn't been done. In case of
FreeBSD, the network interfaces are represented under /dev/net. A sample
installation shows this:
crw------- 1 root wheel 0, 29 Aug 21 18:02 de0
crw------- 1 root wheel 0, 70 Aug 21 18:02 lo0
crw------- 1 root wheel 0, 35 Aug 21 18:02 plip0
Does it mean network interfaces are presented as _character_ devices?
Doing "cat foo >de0" gives "Operation not supported by device."
> what do you mean by this? the VFS is a kernel interface along the general
> lines of plan 9's devtab. everything-is-a-file[server] is a general
> principle.
I mean VFS is an abstraction layer that presents a file system. What it
represents as a file system is rather arbitrary.
>> but on UNIX systems it is limited to resources that can be meaningfully
>> represented as file systems.
>
> so why is the network hidden in side channels in adjunct namespaces?
I don't understand this one.
--On Thursday, August 21, 2008 6:36 AM -0400 erik quanstrom
<quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>> So essentially there shouldn't be a problem with mounting on a single
>> "public" namespace
>
> namespaces are not public in the sense that they are visible to all
> processes.
>
>> as long as there is one user on the system.
>
> since this started out as a discussion of terminals, i should point out
> that terminals by definition have a single user at a time.
>
>> This is classic. Complication is a sign of maturation. Plan 9 has evaded
>> that by not maturing, by avoiding diversification. Before you get angry
>> I must say that's my "personal" opinion. Nothing I'm going to "force"
>> unto you. Nothing I _can_ force unto you.
>
> equally one could say complication is a sign that one's vision was
> lacking; a sign that one's system lacks generality.
>
> if you call the opposite of complication immaturity, i'll be proud
> to have an operating system that suffers from it.
>
>> How does that differ from presenting of a network interface by a block
>> device on UNIX? And why should avoiding system calls be considered an
>> advantage? Your VFS layer could do anything expected from /net provided
>> that file system abstraction for the resources represented under /net is
>> viable in the first place.
>
> i'm not sure what passes for unix these days, but linux at least
> does not present network interfaces as block devices. there is no
> /dev/eth0.
>
>> The VFS approach is by no means inferior to Plan 9's
>> everything-is-a-file,
>
> what do you mean by this? the VFS is a kernel interface along the general
> lines of plan 9's devtab. everything-is-a-file[server] is a general
> principle.
>
>
>> but on UNIX systems it is limited to resources that can be meaningfully
>> represented as file systems.
>
> so why is the network hidden in side channels in adjunct namespaces?
>
> - erik
>
>
next reply other threads:[~2008-08-21 17:20 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 117+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2008-08-21 17:20 Eris Discordia [this message]
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2008-08-24 17:13 Eris Discordia
2008-08-25 3:57 ` Michaelian Ennis
2008-08-24 16:52 Eris Discordia
2008-08-24 8:20 erik quanstrom
2008-08-21 17:36 Eris Discordia
2008-08-21 20:39 ` ron minnich
2008-08-21 22:11 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-22 2:58 ` Federico G. Benavento
2008-08-22 6:13 ` Andrew Simmons
2008-08-22 9:41 ` hiro
2008-08-21 16:39 Eris Discordia
2008-08-21 17:11 ` ron minnich
2008-08-21 18:29 ` hiro
2008-08-20 23:49 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 21:46 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 22:41 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20 23:15 ` Geoffrey Avila
2008-08-21 7:42 ` Uriel
2008-08-21 10:58 ` erik quanstrom
2008-08-21 13:25 ` john
2008-08-21 13:31 ` David Leimbach
2008-08-21 16:59 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-21 17:14 ` ron minnich
2008-08-21 10:36 ` erik quanstrom
2008-08-20 13:01 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 13:22 ` Sander van Dijk
2008-08-20 12:56 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 18:08 ` sqweek
2008-08-20 18:58 ` erik quanstrom
2008-08-20 19:47 ` sqweek
2008-08-20 12:36 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 9:44 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 9:34 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 11:56 ` Robert William Fuller
2008-08-20 12:25 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 9:03 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 8:33 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 8:29 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 8:04 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 1:39 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 2:08 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20 2:13 ` Iruata Souza
2008-08-20 8:08 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 5:02 ` sqweek
2008-08-20 9:15 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 9:44 ` Sander van Dijk
2008-08-20 9:53 ` sqweek
2008-08-20 10:12 ` matt
2008-08-20 12:27 ` Bruce Ellis
2008-08-20 16:23 ` Iruata Souza
2008-08-20 8:10 ` Steve Simon
2008-08-20 0:30 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 3:34 ` geoff
2008-08-20 3:43 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20 3:48 ` Bruce Ellis
2008-08-20 8:42 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 0:10 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 2:29 ` a
2008-08-20 8:01 ` Steve Simon
2008-08-19 23:51 Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 0:30 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20 1:31 ` Iruata Souza
2008-08-20 1:43 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 2:00 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20 7:03 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 7:36 ` bb
2008-08-21 0:03 ` Dan Cross
2008-08-24 7:27 ` John Waters
2008-08-24 18:14 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-25 5:43 ` John Waters
2008-08-19 22:00 Eris Discordia
2008-08-19 22:12 ` andrey mirtchovski
2008-08-19 23:14 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 3:12 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2008-08-20 3:17 ` andrey mirtchovski
2008-08-20 8:31 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-19 22:14 ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2008-08-19 22:26 ` Steve Simon
2008-08-19 23:27 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-19 23:36 ` Jonathan Cast
2008-08-20 0:42 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 2:08 ` a
2008-08-20 8:06 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 3:26 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2008-08-20 3:31 ` Bruce Ellis
2008-08-20 8:41 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-19 22:25 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-19 22:31 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-19 22:46 ` Federico G. Benavento
2008-08-20 0:31 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-19 23:03 ` Benjamin Huntsman
2008-08-20 0:34 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 0:58 ` Benjamin Huntsman
2008-08-19 22:34 ` erik quanstrom
2008-08-20 3:11 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2008-08-19 15:52 Wendell xe
2008-08-19 16:01 ` ron minnich
2008-08-19 16:11 ` erik quanstrom
2008-08-19 21:23 ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2008-08-19 16:31 ` Robert Raschke
2008-08-19 21:00 ` Steve Simon
2008-08-19 17:50 ` Ramon de Vera
2008-08-19 17:58 ` Russ Cox
2008-10-22 12:37 ` Rudolf Sykora
2008-10-23 18:26 ` Rudolf Sykora
2008-10-23 20:17 ` yy
2008-10-24 17:51 ` Russ Cox
2008-10-24 18:17 ` Rudolf Sykora
2009-04-05 16:19 ` Rudolf Sykora
2008-08-19 20:22 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-19 21:24 ` Iruata Souza
2008-08-20 0:28 ` David Leimbach
2008-08-20 3:54 ` Pietro Gagliardi
2008-08-20 3:56 ` Bruce Ellis
2008-08-20 8:48 ` Eris Discordia
2008-08-20 9:21 ` matt
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=41EF4FA991D5D36DDDF80AF4@computer \
--to=eris.discordia@gmail.com \
--cc=9fans@9fans.net \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).