From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <4293A29A.5070106@offmyserver.com> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:54:34 -0400 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jack Johnson , Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] the futility of #plan9 on irc References: <20050523233359.GD14127@xware.cx> <20050524210721.GA2250@xware.cx> <20050524212015.GA18538@augusta.math.psu.edu> <6e35c06205052414317b157a2e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6e35c06205052414317b157a2e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Topicbox-Message-UUID: 52d05c2a-ead0-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Jack Johnson wrote: > On 5/24/05, Dan Cross wrote: > >>Because the data isn't accumulated over time, the damage >>done by the bad data remains done. The correction is never applied. > > > So, this begs the question, do people using IRC understand this? If > so, then the newbie swears, tries again with a new crowd, or tries > 9fans and waits. If not, then they assume the software is broken or > that it will not do what it asks and they give up. No, they do not. When I first started in there, I was given absolute hell and did not understand what everyone's problem was. I've come to appreciate that some of that attitude is qualified by being a Plan 9 user/developer/enthusiast as I have taken some of the mental stances myself. But I still notice that far too many people (potential developers included!) have been scared away by the overzealous ideals and twisted advocacy of some individuals. This has caused me to `indefinitely' leave the channel. At least until I noticed it getting better. During this time, I started #Plan-9, which was pretty successful at getting people who really wanted to talk about Plan 9 to do so in a kind fashion. It still exists, though the conversation has moved en masse back to #Plan9. Surprisingly, it did. I still notice some of the behaviors, but they are in general getting better. Unfortunately, I have not been around for the last set of quotes that sparked this thread. Normally, I check uriel on his statements. > If I were really concerned about the quality of information on IRC, I > would donate an hour a week to straightening out the locals or just > roll an infobot that references the wiki and the mailing list archives > and let the locals qualify the result with their own $0.02 (though > possibly not USD). There are a lot of great minds in #Plan9. Infrequently, I see Ron, Andrey and Russ. Other than that, there's usually Vester, Boyd, Steve Simon, Tim Newsham, Eric van Hensbergen and myself. I'm probably leaving lots of people out; this is simply to give people an idea. In general, the discussion is good when I'm discussing, simply because interesting development / usage issues are being discussed. I tend to leave when it gets too hairy. Which is why it's oddly good discussion when I'm there ;). (Don't mean to glorify myself one bit). > Otherwise, I would assume the visitors were looking for easy > information and that they realize they might not walk away with > answers. > > -Jack This is always something to watch out for on IRC, and unfortunately many IRC newbies do not understand this. I'd say it's generally a good place. But you have to know who to watch for. Generally that's straightforward, but it can get messy sometimes. In any case, I think this thread is somewhat moot. IRC is known for its crap; I think it just hits us hard because it's such a niche OS (at the moment, at least). The best thing to do (in my experience) is say `BS, ' and drop it. /ignore also works wonders for most clients. I might petition Freenode to make a ##Plan9 channel per its ridiculous `this is not an official project channel' guidelines, but it might help users who are new to Freenode (who have read the page / MOTD) to understand that it's not an official channel. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell