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* [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
@ 2022-01-27 22:57 Bakul Shah
  2022-01-28  2:55 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak
                   ` (5 more replies)
  0 siblings, 6 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2022-01-27 22:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

The idea:
- make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
  providing a firmware/hardware building block that
  talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
  with device specific hardware.

- use a "universal" 9p driver on the host side that
  allows access to any such 9p device even from a shell.

- provide a standard way to find out device capabilities.

- together they provide a plug-and-play setup.

Example: connect an LED and a current sensor to this
9p device, other necessary hardware, add a few config
bits and plug this device kn]]into a host. Now you should
be able to turn on/off the light or sense its state.

Similarly you should be able to control a stepper motor
servo, cameras, microphones, other actuators, sensors,
IO etc. Eventually you should be able to snap together
enough of these components to build larger assemblies
such as a 3D printer.

Another example: a "hub" to multiplex such downstream
devices and make them available to a host.

This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
implementation would be useful in an FPGA!

Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
available, what would you want to build with it?

Do you think 9p is the right protocol for this?

Ideally
- connect anything to anything
- authenticated connections
- drive the device through a shell script
- no new low level drivers
- self-identifying devices with help and command syntax
- signicantly eases the task of creating new h/w devices.

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-27 22:57 [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p Bakul Shah
@ 2022-01-28  2:55 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak
  2022-01-28  3:31 ` Lucio De Re
                   ` (4 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Thaddeus Woskowiak @ 2022-01-28  2:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3289 bytes --]

I've been saying the same thing for years. 9p makes for a great control
protocol that presents a simple way to present data, a tree of files.

Charles Forsyth wrote an Atmega compiler for plan 9. That could be used as
the basis for a plan 9 Arduino thing. We likely need a mulibc.h or whatever
and a loader to send the binary to the Arduino micro controller. Someone
patched 9front usbserial to recognize Arduino USB boards as usbeia devices.
(I think Miller's pi and labs does too?). Out of the box microcontroller
support with 9p libs would be a really nice thing to have.

Echoline wrote ninepea, an Arduino 9p library. This currently works and can
be mounted on a plan 9 machine and you can talk to your Arduino though
files. Though this uses the official Arduino library and compiler which
does not work on plan 9 (on 9front you can use vmx to run a Linux vm)

One compiler that we really need is an arm thumb 2 compiler for cortex-m/r
microcontrollers. Inferno has a very old and very incomplete arm thumb 1
compiler, tc. I don't know if it's worth salvaging.

Personally, I'm (sloooowly)working on using Plan 9 for personal industrial
automation projects. I have some crude modbus stuff working.

At work I've used it on a RasPi to tie a PLC to an HDMI heads up display
that uses ASCII commands. Dumb easy to write a C  program for that on Plan
9.


On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:58 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:

> The idea:
> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>   providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>   talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>   with device specific hardware.
> 
> - use a "universal" 9p driver on the host side that
>   allows access to any such 9p device even from a shell.
> 
> - provide a standard way to find out device capabilities.
> 
> - together they provide a plug-and-play setup.
> 
> Example: connect an LED and a current sensor to this
> 9p device, other necessary hardware, add a few config
> bits and plug this device kn]]into a host. Now you should
> be able to turn on/off the light or sense its state.
> 
> Similarly you should be able to control a stepper motor
> servo, cameras, microphones, other actuators, sensors,
> IO etc. Eventually you should be able to snap together
> enough of these components to build larger assemblies
> such as a 3D printer.
> 
> Another example: a "hub" to multiplex such downstream
> devices and make them available to a host.
> 
> This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
> implementation would be useful in an FPGA!
> 
> Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
> available, what would you want to build with it?
> 
> Do you think 9p is the right protocol for this?
> 
> Ideally
> - connect anything to anything
> - authenticated connections
> - drive the device through a shell script
> - no new low level drivers
> - self-identifying devices with help and command syntax
> - signicantly eases the task of creating new h/w devices.

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-27 22:57 [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p Bakul Shah
  2022-01-28  2:55 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak
@ 2022-01-28  3:31 ` Lucio De Re
  2022-01-28  5:16   ` Bakul Shah
  2022-01-28 19:32   ` [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p Kent R. Spillner
  2022-01-28  4:54 ` ori
                   ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2022-01-28  3:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
> The idea:
> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>   providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>   talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>   with device specific hardware.
>
> [ ... ]
>
Sounds very appealing.

There's a UEFI-based development that puts 9P2000 inside the modern
BIOS - excuse the imprecise language: I played with it and my
ignorance caused me to get frustrated before I could accomplish
anything with it. I'll dig up a github reference if anyone asks. I
found it while searching for something quite different.

> This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
> implementation would be useful in an FPGA!
>
I never understood why USB receives so much attention (but thanks to
all those who valiantly tried to tame that wild beast!). What does it
do that PoE doesn't do infinitely better?

> Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
> available, what would you want to build with it?
>
What I would want from such a tool is its availability within
educational institutions so we stop teaching greed technology to
learners and lower the knowledge entry bar that Intel and Microsoft -
and their allies - have created (that, I make no apologies for, is
Politics, the Politics of Technological Domination).

Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-27 22:57 [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p Bakul Shah
  2022-01-28  2:55 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak
  2022-01-28  3:31 ` Lucio De Re
@ 2022-01-28  4:54 ` ori
  2022-01-28 20:55 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2022-01-28  4:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org>:
> The idea:
> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>   providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>   talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>   with device specific hardware.
> 
> - use a "universal" 9p driver on the host side that
>   allows access to any such 9p device even from a shell.
> 
> - provide a standard way to find out device capabilities.
> 
> - together they provide a plug-and-play setup.
> 
> Example: connect an LED and a current sensor to this
> 9p device, other necessary hardware, add a few config
> bits and plug this device kn]]into a host. Now you should
> be able to turn on/off the light or sense its state.
> 
> Similarly you should be able to control a stepper motor
> servo, cameras, microphones, other actuators, sensors,
> IO etc. Eventually you should be able to snap together
> enough of these components to build larger assemblies
> such as a 3D printer.
> 

I did something like this at a previous job, where we
had firmware exposed via 9p tunneled over a USB bulk
endpoint.

The firmware was implemented on an STM32, and mounted
from linux using lib9pclient with a p9p-ectomy.

It worked quite well. Unfortunately, it wasn't open
source, and the company is now dead.


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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28  3:31 ` Lucio De Re
@ 2022-01-28  5:16   ` Bakul Shah
  2022-01-28 10:16     ` Lucio De Re
  2022-01-28 19:32   ` [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p Kent R. Spillner
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2022-01-28  5:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Jan 27, 2022, at 7:31 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
> 
>> This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
>> implementation would be useful in an FPGA!
>> 
> I never understood why USB receives so much attention (but thanks to
> all those who valiantly tried to tame that wild beast!). What does it
> do that PoE doesn't do infinitely better?

Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.

But note these are just preliminary ideas.

>> Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
>> available, what would you want to build with it?
>> 
> What I would want from such a tool is its availability within
> educational institutions so we stop teaching greed technology to
> learners and lower the knowledge entry bar that Intel and Microsoft -
> and their allies - have created (that, I make no apologies for, is
> Politics, the Politics of Technological Domination).


Let us first build a few before worrying about such things.


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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28  5:16   ` Bakul Shah
@ 2022-01-28 10:16     ` Lucio De Re
  2022-01-28 19:01       ` Charles Forsyth
                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2022-01-28 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>
> Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
> USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
> cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
> pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.
>
I've recommended olimex.com in the past. They specialise in Open
Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product
range quite broad.

Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 10:16     ` Lucio De Re
@ 2022-01-28 19:01       ` Charles Forsyth
  2022-01-28 21:26         ` Bakul Shah
  2022-01-28 20:54       ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-28 20:59       ` Tony Mendoza
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Charles Forsyth @ 2022-01-28 19:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1711 bytes --]

https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/rts/static/papers/R:N.C.:Audsley:2006.pdf might
be of interest.

They turned up at an embedded systems show at Birmingham NEC about that
time.
I was attending independently, but it was interesting to see,.
Wandering about some boring other stands, I found one that was showing off
a small embedded device running a remarkable system.
There was source code on the screen.
"Hmm", I asked, "what's the language it's running?"
Lars Bok [for it was he], proudly, "It is SmallTalk!" in 64k [I think] on a
micro with a real-time garbage collector and in-service code updating on
the fly.
Just fantastic. We bemoaned the boring nature of most of the stands. I
mentioned Styx-on-a-Chip and he wandered off to have a look, returning to
say it was also interesting.
I forget the name of the system, but eventually the company was sold on or
got different investors in, who turned it into a Java thing. As usual.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 at 10:18, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
> >
> > Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
> > USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
> > cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
> > pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.
> >
> I've recommended olimex.com in the past. They specialise in Open
> Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product
> range quite broad.
> 
> Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28  3:31 ` Lucio De Re
  2022-01-28  5:16   ` Bakul Shah
@ 2022-01-28 19:32   ` Kent R. Spillner
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Kent R. Spillner @ 2022-01-28 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> What does it do that PoE doesn't do infinitely better?

For most of its life USB was only 5 V: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power

PoE is (mostly) 48 V: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet#Standard_implementation

PoE also requires the use of either special PoE switches or power injectors,
so at the time USB was first created it was cheaper & made more sense for PC
and laptop hardware.

Also, back then the USB folks were all like "4 different PoE standards?! That's
ridiculous!"  https://xkcd.com/927/  ;)



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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 10:16     ` Lucio De Re
  2022-01-28 19:01       ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2022-01-28 20:54       ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-28 20:59       ` Tony Mendoza
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Tony Mendoza @ 2022-01-28 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1260 bytes --]

A few years back I started trying to build something similar off of
the STM32F4 line of ARM MCUs.
https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32f4-series.html
Supports ethernet, spi, usb otg, etc.  Thought about porting the
libstyx library from Inferno over to 
the STM32 platform. 

https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/styxtest

Thin OS layer was provided by FreeRTOS.  STM32F4 specific HW was
accessed using libopencm3
https://libopencm3.org/ 

If interested...
https://github.com/tmendoza/stm32f4-template
Tony

On 1/28/2022 at 4:18 AM, "Lucio De Re"  wrote:On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah 
wrote:
>
> Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
> USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
> cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
> pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.
>
I've recommended olimex.com in the past. They specialise in Open
Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product
range quite broad.

Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-27 22:57 [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p Bakul Shah
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-01-28  4:54 ` ori
@ 2022-01-28 20:55 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2022-01-29  9:16 ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2022-02-15  3:07 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) @ 2022-01-28 20:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans, Bakul Shah

Bakul Shah writes:

> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>   providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>   talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>   with device specific hardware.

Amen!  I've been thinking about something like this for years.
My specific use case involves controlling radio transceivers.
Right now I do this with assorted Arduino hardware that speaks
GPIO and RS232 (mostly) to the radios, and RS232 to the upstream
"controller" host.  This burns through a lot of serial ports on
the controller.

What I would prefer is to have all those Arduinos connected
to an RS485 multidrop, each exporting a 9p filesystem for the
control interface.  Shoveling the data around on the RS485
"bus" just needs a simple frame wrapped around the 9p packets
that provides device addressing and a CRC.  On the Plan9 side
this just becomes another network type, with ndb handling
the device addressing.

As others have mentioned, having a native Atmel C compiler would
be a real boon here, but there's no reason why this couldn't be
done with an Arduino 9P library.  I haven't investigated if such
a thing exists, although I'm sure it does.

--lyndon

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 10:16     ` Lucio De Re
  2022-01-28 19:01       ` Charles Forsyth
  2022-01-28 20:54       ` Tony Mendoza
@ 2022-01-28 20:59       ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-28 21:03         ` ori
  2022-01-28 21:06         ` Eli Cohen
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Tony Mendoza @ 2022-01-28 20:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1407 bytes --]

Sorry wrong libstyx repo
https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/libstyx
T

On 1/28/2022 at 2:54 PM, "Tony Mendoza"  wrote:A few years back I
started trying to build something similar off of the STM32F4 line of
ARM MCUs.
https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32f4-series.html
Supports ethernet, spi, usb otg, etc.  Thought about porting the
libstyx library from Inferno over to 
the STM32 platform. 

https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/styxtest

Thin OS layer was provided by FreeRTOS.  STM32F4 specific HW was
accessed using libopencm3
https://libopencm3.org/ 

If interested...
https://github.com/tmendoza/stm32f4-template
Tony

On 1/28/2022 at 4:18 AM, "Lucio De Re"  wrote:On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah 
wrote:
>
> Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
> USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
> cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
> pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.
>
I've recommended olimex.com in the past. They specialise in Open
Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product
range quite broad.

Lucio.

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 20:59       ` Tony Mendoza
@ 2022-01-28 21:03         ` ori
  2022-01-28 21:07           ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-28 21:06         ` Eli Cohen
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2022-01-28 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth Tony Mendoza <clueelf@tonymendoza.us>:
> Sorry wrong libstyx repo

also, this repo is private:
 
> If interested...
> https://github.com/tmendoza/stm32f4-template
> Tony

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 20:59       ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-28 21:03         ` ori
@ 2022-01-28 21:06         ` Eli Cohen
  2022-01-28 21:16           ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-29  2:32           ` Thaddeus Woskowiak
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Eli Cohen @ 2022-01-28 21:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2436 bytes --]

I started working on a project with an ESP32 board (with a toolchain for
linux) to make a /net/etherESP32 for wifi with 9P right on the little
board. I got as far as realizing how different 802.11 and 802.3 are...

the unfinished code is at https://github.com/echoline/etherESP32

it would be cool to see an aijuboard with accelerated hardware devdraw on
the fpga if that's even possible, or other hardware like that

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 1:01 PM Tony Mendoza <clueelf@tonymendoza.us> wrote:

> Sorry wrong libstyx repo
>
> https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/libstyx
>
> T
>
> On 1/28/2022 at 2:54 PM, "Tony Mendoza" <clueelf@tonymendoza.us> wrote:
>
> A few years back I started trying to build something similar off of the
> STM32F4 line of ARM MCUs.
>
> https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32f4-series.html
>
> Supports ethernet, spi, usb otg, etc.  Thought about porting the libstyx
> library from Inferno over to
> the STM32 platform.
>
> https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/styxtest
>
> Thin OS layer was provided by FreeRTOS.  STM32F4 specific HW was accessed
> using libopencm3
>
> https://libopencm3.org/
>
> If interested...
>
> https://github.com/tmendoza/stm32f4-template
>
> Tony
>
> On 1/28/2022 at 4:18 AM, "Lucio De Re" <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
> >
> > Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
> > USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
> > cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
> > pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.
> >
> I've recommended olimex.com in the past. They specialise in Open
> Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product
> range quite broad.
> 
> Lucio.
> 
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 21:03         ` ori
@ 2022-01-28 21:07           ` Tony Mendoza
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Tony Mendoza @ 2022-01-28 21:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 523 bytes --]

Well that was rude of me ;-)  

Should be public now.
Thanks for the heads up!
T

On 1/28/2022 at 3:05 PM, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:Quoth Tony Mendoza :
> Sorry wrong libstyx repo

also, this repo is private:
> If interested...
> https://github.com/tmendoza/stm32f4-template
> Tony

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 21:06         ` Eli Cohen
@ 2022-01-28 21:16           ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-28 21:27             ` Eli Cohen
  2022-01-29  2:32           ` Thaddeus Woskowiak
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Tony Mendoza @ 2022-01-28 21:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2154 bytes --]

Eli said - "...accelerated hardware devdraw on the fpga if that's even
possible"
It's possible.
https://projectf.io/posts/fpga-graphics/
T

On 1/28/2022 at 3:08 PM, "Eli Cohen"  wrote:I started working on a
project with an ESP32 board (with a toolchain for linux) to make a
/net/etherESP32 for wifi with 9P right on the little board. I got as
far as realizing how different 802.11 and 802.3 are...
the unfinished code is at https://github.com/echoline/etherESP32
it would be cool to see an aijuboard with accelerated hardware devdraw
on the fpga if that's even possible, or other hardware like that
On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 1:01 PM Tony Mendoza  wrote:
Sorry wrong libstyx repo
https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/libstyx
T

On 1/28/2022 at 2:54 PM, "Tony Mendoza"  wrote:A few years back I
started trying to build something similar off of the STM32F4 line of
ARM MCUs.
https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32f4-series.html
Supports ethernet, spi, usb otg, etc.  Thought about porting the
libstyx library from Inferno over to 
the STM32 platform. 

https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/styxtest

Thin OS layer was provided by FreeRTOS.  STM32F4 specific HW was
accessed using libopencm3
https://libopencm3.org/

If interested...
https://github.com/tmendoza/stm32f4-template
Tony

On 1/28/2022 at 4:18 AM, "Lucio De Re"  wrote:On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah 
wrote:
>
> Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
> USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
> cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
> pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.
>
I've recommended olimex.com in the past. They specialise in Open
Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product
range quite broad.

Lucio.
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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 19:01       ` Charles Forsyth
@ 2022-01-28 21:26         ` Bakul Shah
  2022-01-28 21:37           ` Eli Cohen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2022-01-28 21:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3043 bytes --]

Thanks! Quite an interesting paper. I vaguely recall reading
this a long time ago. 

I think the key will be to figure out how to make this a very
easy to use component. It is not rocket science but will
probably require a few iterations to smooth out any rough
edges and to see what evolves.

Good to see there is interest in the community!

> On Jan 28, 2022, at 11:01 AM, Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/rts/static/papers/R:N.C.:Audsley:2006.pdf <https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/rts/static/papers/R:N.C.:Audsley:2006.pdf> might be of interest.
> 
> They turned up at an embedded systems show at Birmingham NEC about that time.
> I was attending independently, but it was interesting to see,.
> Wandering about some boring other stands, I found one that was showing off a small embedded device running a remarkable system.
> There was source code on the screen.
> "Hmm", I asked, "what's the language it's running?"
> Lars Bok [for it was he], proudly, "It is SmallTalk!" in 64k [I think] on a micro with a real-time garbage collector and in-service code updating on the fly.
> Just fantastic. We bemoaned the boring nature of most of the stands. I mentioned Styx-on-a-Chip and he wandered off to have a look, returning to say it was also interesting.
> I forget the name of the system, but eventually the company was sold on or got different investors in, who turned it into a Java thing. As usual.
> 
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 at 10:18, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com <mailto:lucio.dere@gmail.com>> wrote:
> On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org <mailto:bakul@iitbombay.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
> > USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
> > cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
> > pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.
> >
> I've recommended olimex.com <http://olimex.com/> in the past. They specialise in Open
> Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product
> range quite broad.
> 
> Lucio.
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-M84956412e025f5666616e7cd <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-M84956412e025f5666616e7cd>
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription>
> 9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest> / 9fans / see discussions <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription>Permalink <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-Mc901f3049ed9f148d9ee00e7>

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 21:16           ` Tony Mendoza
@ 2022-01-28 21:27             ` Eli Cohen
  2022-01-28 21:33               ` david
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Eli Cohen @ 2022-01-28 21:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2901 bytes --]

hmmm. but for all of the devdraw fs and image backing, etc? can it access
RAM?

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 1:18 PM Tony Mendoza <clueelf@tonymendoza.us> wrote:

> Eli said - "...accelerated hardware devdraw on the fpga if that's even
> possible"
>
> It's possible.
>
> https://projectf.io/posts/fpga-graphics/
>
> T
>
> On 1/28/2022 at 3:08 PM, "Eli Cohen" <echoline@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I started working on a project with an ESP32 board (with a toolchain for
> linux) to make a /net/etherESP32 for wifi with 9P right on the little
> board. I got as far as realizing how different 802.11 and 802.3 are...
>
> the unfinished code is at https://github.com/echoline/etherESP32
>
> it would be cool to see an aijuboard with accelerated hardware devdraw on
> the fpga if that's even possible, or other hardware like that
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 1:01 PM Tony Mendoza <clueelf@tonymendoza.us> wrote:
>
>> Sorry wrong libstyx repo
>>
>> https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/libstyx
>>
>> T
>>
>> On 1/28/2022 at 2:54 PM, "Tony Mendoza" <clueelf@tonymendoza.us> wrote:
>>
>> A few years back I started trying to build something similar off of the
>> STM32F4 line of ARM MCUs.
>>
>> https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32f4-series.html
>>
>> Supports ethernet, spi, usb otg, etc.  Thought about porting the libstyx
>> library from Inferno over to
>> the STM32 platform.
>>
>> https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/styxtest
>>
>> Thin OS layer was provided by FreeRTOS.  STM32F4 specific HW was accessed
>> using libopencm3
>>
>> https://libopencm3.org/
>>
>> If interested...
>>
>> https://github.com/tmendoza/stm32f4-template
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> On 1/28/2022 at 4:18 AM, "Lucio De Re" <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
>> > USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
>> > cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
>> > pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.
>> >
>> I've recommended olimex.com in the past. They specialise in Open
>> Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product
>> range quite broad.
>> 
>> Lucio.
>> 
>> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-Mb0d91d78bd0ccb6b864611c7>
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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 21:27             ` Eli Cohen
@ 2022-01-28 21:33               ` david
  2022-01-28 21:46                 ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-29  1:04                 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: david @ 2022-01-28 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 776 bytes --]

On 2022-01-28 2:55:00, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote:

> One compiler that we really need is an arm thumb 2 compiler for cortex-m/r
> microcontrollers. Inferno has a very old and very incomplete arm thumb 1
> compiler, tc. I don't know if it's worth salvaging.

I am using 5a/tc/tl to build bare metal code for a STM32F405 MCU thanks
to some hints from Charles Forsyth.

I'm currently trying to add FP support and learn about compiler internals.
It also means learning about Thumb-2, which is quite alien for an old-school
ARM coder.

David
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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 21:26         ` Bakul Shah
@ 2022-01-28 21:37           ` Eli Cohen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Eli Cohen @ 2022-01-28 21:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2906 bytes --]

I also started a paper about the very small 9P library I used on MCUs, I
was hoping to present this at IWP9 before we all ended up in the pandemic
Biff timeline https://echoline.org/NinePea.pdf

this paper is still not that polished yet

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 1:28 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:

> Thanks! Quite an interesting paper. I vaguely recall reading
> this a long time ago.
>
> I think the key will be to figure out how to make this a very
> easy to use component. It is not rocket science but will
> probably require a few iterations to smooth out any rough
> edges and to see what evolves.
>
> Good to see there is interest in the community!
>
> On Jan 28, 2022, at 11:01 AM, Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/rts/static/papers/R:N.C.:Audsley:2006.pdf might
> be of interest.
>
> They turned up at an embedded systems show at Birmingham NEC about that
> time.
> I was attending independently, but it was interesting to see,.
> Wandering about some boring other stands, I found one that was showing off
> a small embedded device running a remarkable system.
> There was source code on the screen.
> "Hmm", I asked, "what's the language it's running?"
> Lars Bok [for it was he], proudly, "It is SmallTalk!" in 64k [I think] on
> a micro with a real-time garbage collector and in-service code updating on
> the fly.
> Just fantastic. We bemoaned the boring nature of most of the stands. I
> mentioned Styx-on-a-Chip and he wandered off to have a look, returning to
> say it was also interesting.
> I forget the name of the system, but eventually the company was sold on or
> got different investors in, who turned it into a Java thing. As usual.
>
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 at 10:18, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
>> > USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
>> > cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
>> > pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.
>> >
>> I've recommended olimex.com in the past. They specialise in Open
>> Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product
>> range quite broad.
>> 
>> Lucio.
>
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-M3c9ced3c7ccb25fd4918537c>
>

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 21:33               ` david
@ 2022-01-28 21:46                 ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-28 22:23                   ` David Boddie
  2022-01-29  1:04                 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Tony Mendoza @ 2022-01-28 21:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1010 bytes --]

Any interest in sharing those hints for building bare metal STM32F405
code om plan9?
T
On 1/28/2022 at 3:34 PM, david@boddie.org.uk wrote:On 2022-01-28
2:55:00, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote:

> One compiler that we really need is an arm thumb 2 compiler for
cortex-m/r
> microcontrollers. Inferno has a very old and very incomplete arm
thumb 1
> compiler, tc. I don't know if it's worth salvaging.

I am using 5a/tc/tl to build bare metal code for a STM32F405 MCU
thanks
to some hints from Charles Forsyth.

I'm currently trying to add FP support and learn about compiler
internals.
It also means learning about Thumb-2, which is quite alien for an
old-school
ARM coder.

David
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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 21:46                 ` Tony Mendoza
@ 2022-01-28 22:23                   ` David Boddie
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: David Boddie @ 2022-01-28 22:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

I'll try and write something useful about it this weekend, and I'll push
a branch up to BitBucket/GitLab:

  https://bitbucket.org/dboddie/inferno-os/branches/
  https://gitlab.com/dboddie/inferno-os/-/branches

However, it basically boils down to this:

 * Build Inferno's tc and tl since they are not included in the default
   build.
 * Fix the tl mkfile so that it calls the executable tl not 5l.
 * Write a mkfile with all the rules for 5a, tc and tl, setting the text
   address to 0x08000000 (flash) and data to 0x20000000 (RAM).
 * Write a loader file to set up the stack and static base registers, copy
   data into RAM, and jump into main.

I have some functions for setting up clocks, GPIOs and the USART. This is
currently in a separate repository for bare metal tests. I'll push that up
to GitLab.

David

On Friday, 28 January 2022 22:46:28 CET Tony Mendoza wrote:
> Any interest in sharing those hints for building bare metal STM32F405
> code om plan9?
> T
> On 1/28/2022 at 3:34 PM, david@boddie.org.uk wrote:On 2022-01-28
> 
> 2:55:00, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote:
> > One compiler that we really need is an arm thumb 2 compiler for
> 
> cortex-m/r
> 
> > microcontrollers. Inferno has a very old and very incomplete arm
> 
> thumb 1
> 
> > compiler, tc. I don't know if it's worth salvaging.
> 
> I am using 5a/tc/tl to build bare metal code for a STM32F405 MCU
> thanks
> to some hints from Charles Forsyth.
> 
> I'm currently trying to add FP support and learn about compiler
> internals.
> It also means learning about Thumb-2, which is quite alien for an
> old-school
> ARM coder.
> 
> David
>  9fans   / 9fans / see discussions   + participants   + delivery
> options Permalink
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-M520003e6d6ac2b54
> e8e509e4 Delivery options:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription





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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 21:33               ` david
  2022-01-28 21:46                 ` Tony Mendoza
@ 2022-01-29  1:04                 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2022-01-29  2:08                   ` David Boddie
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) @ 2022-01-29  1:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans, david

david@boddie.org.uk writes:

> I am using 5a/tc/tl to build bare metal code for a STM32F405 MCU thanks
> to some hints from Charles Forsyth.

Could you post some notes on how you're doing that?  This is something
I'd like to take for a spin.

--lyndon

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-29  1:04                 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
@ 2022-01-29  2:08                   ` David Boddie
  2022-01-29  3:36                     ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-29 18:03                     ` David Boddie
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: David Boddie @ 2022-01-29  2:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Saturday, 29 January 2022 02:04:18 CET Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 
wrote:
> david@boddie.org.uk writes:
> > I am using 5a/tc/tl to build bare metal code for a STM32F405 MCU thanks
> > to some hints from Charles Forsyth.
> 
> Could you post some notes on how you're doing that?  This is something
> I'd like to take for a spin.

I quickly wrote up something that is hopefully useful:

https://dboddie.gitlab.io/inferno-diary/2022-01-29.html

I'll add more over the weekend.

David



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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-28 21:06         ` Eli Cohen
  2022-01-28 21:16           ` Tony Mendoza
@ 2022-01-29  2:32           ` Thaddeus Woskowiak
  2022-01-29 20:04             ` [9fans] aiju boards Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Thaddeus Woskowiak @ 2022-01-29  2:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2835 bytes --]

The 9front /sys/src/9/zynq port is aiju board's kernel. That could be
ported to another zynq board like the little digilent cora z7 or arty z7.
Those are just examples, there are many other zynq 7000 boards.

Aiju also did a cyclone SoC port for 9front.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 4:08 PM Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote:

> I started working on a project with an ESP32 board (with a toolchain for
> linux) to make a /net/etherESP32 for wifi with 9P right on the little
> board. I got as far as realizing how different 802.11 and 802.3 are...
>
> the unfinished code is at https://github.com/echoline/etherESP32
>
> it would be cool to see an aijuboard with accelerated hardware devdraw on
> the fpga if that's even possible, or other hardware like that
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 1:01 PM Tony Mendoza <clueelf@tonymendoza.us> wrote:
>
>> Sorry wrong libstyx repo
>>
>> https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/libstyx
>>
>> T
>>
>> On 1/28/2022 at 2:54 PM, "Tony Mendoza" <clueelf@tonymendoza.us> wrote:
>>
>> A few years back I started trying to build something similar off of the
>> STM32F4 line of ARM MCUs.
>>
>> https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32f4-series.html
>>
>> Supports ethernet, spi, usb otg, etc.  Thought about porting the libstyx
>> library from Inferno over to
>> the STM32 platform.
>>
>> https://github.com/inferno-os/inferno-os/tree/master/tools/styxtest
>>
>> Thin OS layer was provided by FreeRTOS.  STM32F4 specific HW was accessed
>> using libopencm3
>>
>> https://libopencm3.org/
>>
>> If interested...
>>
>> https://github.com/tmendoza/stm32f4-template
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> On 1/28/2022 at 4:18 AM, "Lucio De Re" <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
>> > USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
>> > cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
>> > pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.
>> >
>> I've recommended olimex.com in the past. They specialise in Open
>> Architecture Hardware. Their prices are very reasonable and product
>> range quite broad.
>> 
>> Lucio.
>> 
>> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-Me6241517a2c3673d4467fc7a>
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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-29  2:08                   ` David Boddie
@ 2022-01-29  3:36                     ` Tony Mendoza
  2022-01-29 18:03                     ` David Boddie
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Tony Mendoza @ 2022-01-29  3:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 941 bytes --]

This is awesome!  Thanks so much!  I wanted to do something like this
for some time.  Would love to do my embedded dev for this platform
using plan9.

T

On 1/28/2022 at 8:10 PM, "David Boddie"  wrote:On Saturday, 29 January
2022 02:04:18 CET Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 
wrote:
> david@boddie.org.uk writes:
> > I am using 5a/tc/tl to build bare metal code for a STM32F405 MCU
thanks
> > to some hints from Charles Forsyth.
> 
> Could you post some notes on how you're doing that?  This is
something
> I'd like to take for a spin.

I quickly wrote up something that is hopefully useful:

https://dboddie.gitlab.io/inferno-diary/2022-01-29.html

I'll add more over the weekend.

David
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-27 22:57 [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p Bakul Shah
                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-01-28 20:55 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
@ 2022-01-29  9:16 ` Skip Tavakkolian
  2022-01-29 11:56   ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
  2022-02-15  3:07 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2022-01-29  9:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

I've been working on something along those lines for IoT management
and networking. Here's my laundry list of architectural and
implementation pieces:

1. authentication: (a) tie devices to owner/user (b) authenticate
users against third parties (via OIDC/SAML2, etc), (c) let the
authenticated user provide the credentials to authenticate and use
their devices via a namespace that follows an established convention
(e.g. /joe/iot/0/secret).
2. device and capability discovery is a bootstrapping process,
starting with a namespace that describes the availability of devices
and features (analogous to '#c/drivers')
3. namespace to discover how to present the data from a particular
source (e.g. a steam gauge widget would need to understand the
namespace exported by a pressure sensor)
4. 9p libraries including fan-in, fan-out capability (i.e. mount,
9pserve) for FreeRTOS, Mbed OS,  ThreadX, Zephyr
5. libraries to localize user↔device 9p traffic, while keeping
authentication centralized (e.g. how @tailscale works)

Initially IoT's would 9p-enable the SPI, I²C, etc. sensors and
actuators, until standards and conventions are established.

For hardware, targeting things like SAMD21 boards seem more
appropriate; they're cheap (e.g. Seeed XIAO). Even things like Nordic
nRF52840 boards are below $10 and include the hardware to establish
root-of-trust.


On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 2:58 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
> 
> The idea:
> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>   providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>   talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>   with device specific hardware.
> 
> - use a "universal" 9p driver on the host side that
>   allows access to any such 9p device even from a shell.
> 
> - provide a standard way to find out device capabilities.
> 
> - together they provide a plug-and-play setup.
> 
> Example: connect an LED and a current sensor to this
> 9p device, other necessary hardware, add a few config
> bits and plug this device kn]]into a host. Now you should
> be able to turn on/off the light or sense its state.
> 
> Similarly you should be able to control a stepper motor
> servo, cameras, microphones, other actuators, sensors,
> IO etc. Eventually you should be able to snap together
> enough of these components to build larger assemblies
> such as a 3D printer.
> 
> Another example: a "hub" to multiplex such downstream
> devices and make them available to a host.
> 
> This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
> implementation would be useful in an FPGA!
> 
> Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
> available, what would you want to build with it?
> 
> Do you think 9p is the right protocol for this?
> 
> Ideally
> - connect anything to anything
> - authenticated connections
> - drive the device through a shell script
> - no new low level drivers
> - self-identifying devices with help and command syntax
> - signicantly eases the task of creating new h/w devices.

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-29  9:16 ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2022-01-29 11:56   ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
  2022-01-29 12:14     ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Frank D. Engel, Jr. @ 2022-01-29 11:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Apparently Linux includes drivers for tunneling IP over a USB connection 
(possibly to support mobile phones?  not sure...)

Making host drivers compatible with these (if not already available) to 
share an IP stack and creating the equivalent device-side support for 
the "blocks" would allow 9P to be tunneled not only from these devices 
but also from other existing solutions in a wider variety of ways, also 
making it easier to connect those devices to Linux as there are ways to 
talk 9P from there.

That may open up some additional flexibility?


On 1/29/22 4:16 AM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> I've been working on something along those lines for IoT management
> and networking. Here's my laundry list of architectural and
> implementation pieces:
>
> 1. authentication: (a) tie devices to owner/user (b) authenticate
> users against third parties (via OIDC/SAML2, etc), (c) let the
> authenticated user provide the credentials to authenticate and use
> their devices via a namespace that follows an established convention
> (e.g. /joe/iot/0/secret).
> 2. device and capability discovery is a bootstrapping process,
> starting with a namespace that describes the availability of devices
> and features (analogous to '#c/drivers')
> 3. namespace to discover how to present the data from a particular
> source (e.g. a steam gauge widget would need to understand the
> namespace exported by a pressure sensor)
> 4. 9p libraries including fan-in, fan-out capability (i.e. mount,
> 9pserve) for FreeRTOS, Mbed OS,  ThreadX, Zephyr
> 5. libraries to localize user↔device 9p traffic, while keeping
> authentication centralized (e.g. how @tailscale works)
>
> Initially IoT's would 9p-enable the SPI, I²C, etc. sensors and
> actuators, until standards and conventions are established.
>
> For hardware, targeting things like SAMD21 boards seem more
> appropriate; they're cheap (e.g. Seeed XIAO). Even things like Nordic
> nRF52840 boards are below $10 and include the hardware to establish
> root-of-trust.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 2:58 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>> The idea:
>> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>>    providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>>    talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>>    with device specific hardware.
>>
>> - use a "universal" 9p driver on the host side that
>>    allows access to any such 9p device even from a shell.
>>
>> - provide a standard way to find out device capabilities.
>>
>> - together they provide a plug-and-play setup.
>>
>> Example: connect an LED and a current sensor to this
>> 9p device, other necessary hardware, add a few config
>> bits and plug this device kn]]into a host. Now you should
>> be able to turn on/off the light or sense its state.
>>
>> Similarly you should be able to control a stepper motor
>> servo, cameras, microphones, other actuators, sensors,
>> IO etc. Eventually you should be able to snap together
>> enough of these components to build larger assemblies
>> such as a 3D printer.
>>
>> Another example: a "hub" to multiplex such downstream
>> devices and make them available to a host.
>>
>> This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
>> implementation would be useful in an FPGA!
>>
>> Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
>> available, what would you want to build with it?
>>
>> Do you think 9p is the right protocol for this?
>>
>> Ideally
>> - connect anything to anything
>> - authenticated connections
>> - drive the device through a shell script
>> - no new low level drivers
>> - self-identifying devices with help and command syntax
>> - signicantly eases the task of creating new h/w devices.
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-M79ef31466316e414d50336d2
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-29 11:56   ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
@ 2022-01-29 12:14     ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
  2022-01-29 12:30       ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Frank D. Engel, Jr. @ 2022-01-29 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Evidently there are two major standards:

CDC, an official USB standard - specifications here: 
https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/CDC_EEM10.pdf

RNDIS, a proprietary Microsoft protocol that Linux also provides drivers 
for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNDIS


The man page for usb/ether on plan9 indicates that CDC support is 
already there but has not been tested; it may be that a good starting 
point is in place and getting this tested would provide the required 
support on the host side of things?


On 1/29/22 6:56 AM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
> Apparently Linux includes drivers for tunneling IP over a USB 
> connection (possibly to support mobile phones?  not sure...)
>
> Making host drivers compatible with these (if not already available) 
> to share an IP stack and creating the equivalent device-side support 
> for the "blocks" would allow 9P to be tunneled not only from these 
> devices but also from other existing solutions in a wider variety of 
> ways, also making it easier to connect those devices to Linux as there 
> are ways to talk 9P from there.
>
> That may open up some additional flexibility?
>
>
> On 1/29/22 4:16 AM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>> I've been working on something along those lines for IoT management
>> and networking. Here's my laundry list of architectural and
>> implementation pieces:
>>
>> 1. authentication: (a) tie devices to owner/user (b) authenticate
>> users against third parties (via OIDC/SAML2, etc), (c) let the
>> authenticated user provide the credentials to authenticate and use
>> their devices via a namespace that follows an established convention
>> (e.g. /joe/iot/0/secret).
>> 2. device and capability discovery is a bootstrapping process,
>> starting with a namespace that describes the availability of devices
>> and features (analogous to '#c/drivers')
>> 3. namespace to discover how to present the data from a particular
>> source (e.g. a steam gauge widget would need to understand the
>> namespace exported by a pressure sensor)
>> 4. 9p libraries including fan-in, fan-out capability (i.e. mount,
>> 9pserve) for FreeRTOS, Mbed OS,  ThreadX, Zephyr
>> 5. libraries to localize user↔device 9p traffic, while keeping
>> authentication centralized (e.g. how @tailscale works)
>>
>> Initially IoT's would 9p-enable the SPI, I²C, etc. sensors and
>> actuators, until standards and conventions are established.
>>
>> For hardware, targeting things like SAMD21 boards seem more
>> appropriate; they're cheap (e.g. Seeed XIAO). Even things like Nordic
>> nRF52840 boards are below $10 and include the hardware to establish
>> root-of-trust.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 2:58 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>>> The idea:
>>> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>>>    providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>>>    talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>>>    with device specific hardware.
>>>
>>> - use a "universal" 9p driver on the host side that
>>>    allows access to any such 9p device even from a shell.
>>>
>>> - provide a standard way to find out device capabilities.
>>>
>>> - together they provide a plug-and-play setup.
>>>
>>> Example: connect an LED and a current sensor to this
>>> 9p device, other necessary hardware, add a few config
>>> bits and plug this device kn]]into a host. Now you should
>>> be able to turn on/off the light or sense its state.
>>>
>>> Similarly you should be able to control a stepper motor
>>> servo, cameras, microphones, other actuators, sensors,
>>> IO etc. Eventually you should be able to snap together
>>> enough of these components to build larger assemblies
>>> such as a 3D printer.
>>>
>>> Another example: a "hub" to multiplex such downstream
>>> devices and make them available to a host.
>>>
>>> This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
>>> implementation would be useful in an FPGA!
>>>
>>> Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
>>> available, what would you want to build with it?
>>>
>>> Do you think 9p is the right protocol for this?
>>>
>>> Ideally
>>> - connect anything to anything
>>> - authenticated connections
>>> - drive the device through a shell script
>>> - no new low level drivers
>>> - self-identifying devices with help and command syntax
>>> - signicantly eases the task of creating new h/w devices.
>> ------------------------------------------
>> 9fans: 9fans
>> Permalink: 
>> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-M79ef31466316e414d50336d2
>> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-29 12:14     ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
@ 2022-01-29 12:30       ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
  2022-01-29 13:24         ` cinap_lenrek
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Frank D. Engel, Jr. @ 2022-01-29 12:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Ok, sorry for the triple-post, but since I can't seem to find that man 
page or usb/ether on my 9front install, I should probably provide my source:

http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/4/usb


On 1/29/22 7:14 AM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
> Evidently there are two major standards:
>
> CDC, an official USB standard - specifications here: 
> https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/CDC_EEM10.pdf
>
> RNDIS, a proprietary Microsoft protocol that Linux also provides 
> drivers for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNDIS
>
>
> The man page for usb/ether on plan9 indicates that CDC support is 
> already there but has not been tested; it may be that a good starting 
> point is in place and getting this tested would provide the required 
> support on the host side of things?
>
>
> On 1/29/22 6:56 AM, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
>> Apparently Linux includes drivers for tunneling IP over a USB 
>> connection (possibly to support mobile phones?  not sure...)
>>
>> Making host drivers compatible with these (if not already available) 
>> to share an IP stack and creating the equivalent device-side support 
>> for the "blocks" would allow 9P to be tunneled not only from these 
>> devices but also from other existing solutions in a wider variety of 
>> ways, also making it easier to connect those devices to Linux as 
>> there are ways to talk 9P from there.
>>
>> That may open up some additional flexibility?
>>
>>
>> On 1/29/22 4:16 AM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>>> I've been working on something along those lines for IoT management
>>> and networking. Here's my laundry list of architectural and
>>> implementation pieces:
>>>
>>> 1. authentication: (a) tie devices to owner/user (b) authenticate
>>> users against third parties (via OIDC/SAML2, etc), (c) let the
>>> authenticated user provide the credentials to authenticate and use
>>> their devices via a namespace that follows an established convention
>>> (e.g. /joe/iot/0/secret).
>>> 2. device and capability discovery is a bootstrapping process,
>>> starting with a namespace that describes the availability of devices
>>> and features (analogous to '#c/drivers')
>>> 3. namespace to discover how to present the data from a particular
>>> source (e.g. a steam gauge widget would need to understand the
>>> namespace exported by a pressure sensor)
>>> 4. 9p libraries including fan-in, fan-out capability (i.e. mount,
>>> 9pserve) for FreeRTOS, Mbed OS,  ThreadX, Zephyr
>>> 5. libraries to localize user↔device 9p traffic, while keeping
>>> authentication centralized (e.g. how @tailscale works)
>>>
>>> Initially IoT's would 9p-enable the SPI, I²C, etc. sensors and
>>> actuators, until standards and conventions are established.
>>>
>>> For hardware, targeting things like SAMD21 boards seem more
>>> appropriate; they're cheap (e.g. Seeed XIAO). Even things like Nordic
>>> nRF52840 boards are below $10 and include the hardware to establish
>>> root-of-trust.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 2:58 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>>>> The idea:
>>>> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>>>>    providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>>>>    talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>>>>    with device specific hardware.
>>>>
>>>> - use a "universal" 9p driver on the host side that
>>>>    allows access to any such 9p device even from a shell.
>>>>
>>>> - provide a standard way to find out device capabilities.
>>>>
>>>> - together they provide a plug-and-play setup.
>>>>
>>>> Example: connect an LED and a current sensor to this
>>>> 9p device, other necessary hardware, add a few config
>>>> bits and plug this device kn]]into a host. Now you should
>>>> be able to turn on/off the light or sense its state.
>>>>
>>>> Similarly you should be able to control a stepper motor
>>>> servo, cameras, microphones, other actuators, sensors,
>>>> IO etc. Eventually you should be able to snap together
>>>> enough of these components to build larger assemblies
>>>> such as a 3D printer.
>>>>
>>>> Another example: a "hub" to multiplex such downstream
>>>> devices and make them available to a host.
>>>>
>>>> This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
>>>> implementation would be useful in an FPGA!
>>>>
>>>> Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
>>>> available, what would you want to build with it?
>>>>
>>>> Do you think 9p is the right protocol for this?
>>>>
>>>> Ideally
>>>> - connect anything to anything
>>>> - authenticated connections
>>>> - drive the device through a shell script
>>>> - no new low level drivers
>>>> - self-identifying devices with help and command syntax
>>>> - signicantly eases the task of creating new h/w devices.
>>> ------------------------------------------
>>> 9fans: 9fans
>>> Permalink: 
>>> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta4e584a373b05553-M79ef31466316e414d50336d2
>>> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>>>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-29 12:30       ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
@ 2022-01-29 13:24         ` cinap_lenrek
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: cinap_lenrek @ 2022-01-29 13:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Ok, sorry for the triple-post, but since I can't seem to find that man 
> page or usb/ether on my 9front install, I should probably provide my source:

/sys/src/cmd/nusb/ether/

--
cinap

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-29  2:08                   ` David Boddie
  2022-01-29  3:36                     ` Tony Mendoza
@ 2022-01-29 18:03                     ` David Boddie
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: David Boddie @ 2022-01-29 18:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

I've pushed some code to a git repository:

https://gitlab.com/dboddie/bare-metal-stm32f405

I'll write more about it as I tidy it up.

David

On Saturday, 29 January 2022 03:08:31 CET David Boddie wrote:
> On Saturday, 29 January 2022 02:04:18 CET Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
> 
> wrote:
> > david@boddie.org.uk writes:
> > > I am using 5a/tc/tl to build bare metal code for a STM32F405 MCU thanks
> > > to some hints from Charles Forsyth.
> > 
> > Could you post some notes on how you're doing that?  This is something
> > I'd like to take for a spin.
> 
> I quickly wrote up something that is hopefully useful:
> 
> https://dboddie.gitlab.io/inferno-diary/2022-01-29.html
> 
> I'll add more over the weekend.
> 
> David





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* [9fans] aiju boards
  2022-01-29  2:32           ` Thaddeus Woskowiak
@ 2022-01-29 20:04             ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) @ 2022-01-29 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans, Thaddeus Woskowiak

> The 9front /sys/src/9/zynq port is aiju board's kernel.

This reminds me to ask ... what did people get up to using their
aiju boards for?  Sadly, mine has been sitting on the shelf collecting
dust for much too long.  I did some early fiddling about, mostly
to learn the fpga toolchain, but then real life got in the way of
playing.

When I bought the board I had intended to use it for some SDR
receiver applications I was thinking about: AIS, ADS-B, DRM, etc.
I really should do something about that.

--lyndon

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* Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p
  2022-01-27 22:57 [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p Bakul Shah
                   ` (4 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-01-29  9:16 ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2022-02-15  3:07 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) @ 2022-02-15  3:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans, Bakul Shah

A short update on the RS-485 network project ...

I ordered up an assortment of RS-485 "hats" and USB serial ports
to play with.  I also have an Axxon LF1006KB PCIe card that will
go into the CPU server as the "gateway" for the 485 network.  It
should already work with the uartpci driver, but I'll have to extend
that to add support for the 485-specific card functions.  Fortunately
Axxon has been very forthcoming with documentation for the card,
so this should be pretty straight forward.

I decided to take this week off work so I could free up some cycles
to get myself orgainized enough to start on this ;-)  I need a week
just to dig out from under the mess that my apartment has become
during lockdown!  Mostly I need to (re-)construct a proper Plan 9
environment to base all of this on, so most of this week is dedicated
to building CPU and file servers, etc.  But just maybe, by the
weekend, I'll have a couple of Plan 9 devices chatting over the
RS-485 link.

--lyndon

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end of thread, other threads:[~2022-02-15  3:08 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 33+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-01-27 22:57 [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p Bakul Shah
2022-01-28  2:55 ` Thaddeus Woskowiak
2022-01-28  3:31 ` Lucio De Re
2022-01-28  5:16   ` Bakul Shah
2022-01-28 10:16     ` Lucio De Re
2022-01-28 19:01       ` Charles Forsyth
2022-01-28 21:26         ` Bakul Shah
2022-01-28 21:37           ` Eli Cohen
2022-01-28 20:54       ` Tony Mendoza
2022-01-28 20:59       ` Tony Mendoza
2022-01-28 21:03         ` ori
2022-01-28 21:07           ` Tony Mendoza
2022-01-28 21:06         ` Eli Cohen
2022-01-28 21:16           ` Tony Mendoza
2022-01-28 21:27             ` Eli Cohen
2022-01-28 21:33               ` david
2022-01-28 21:46                 ` Tony Mendoza
2022-01-28 22:23                   ` David Boddie
2022-01-29  1:04                 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
2022-01-29  2:08                   ` David Boddie
2022-01-29  3:36                     ` Tony Mendoza
2022-01-29 18:03                     ` David Boddie
2022-01-29  2:32           ` Thaddeus Woskowiak
2022-01-29 20:04             ` [9fans] aiju boards Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
2022-01-28 19:32   ` [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p Kent R. Spillner
2022-01-28  4:54 ` ori
2022-01-28 20:55 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
2022-01-29  9:16 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2022-01-29 11:56   ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
2022-01-29 12:14     ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
2022-01-29 12:30       ` Frank D. Engel, Jr.
2022-01-29 13:24         ` cinap_lenrek
2022-02-15  3:07 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)

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