* Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
@ 2008-02-04 12:12 gdiaz
2008-02-04 12:47 ` Filipp Andronov
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: gdiaz @ 2008-02-04 12:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Hola,
Reading 9fans mail list archives you will notice C++ and the "object oriented model" is not much appreciated, there are a lot of references (including great fortunes entries) about this topic.
Search for the discussions, i think there has been other attemps to build a c++ environment, (Steve got cfront working, take a look at the contrib software section of the wiki)
there is people who will love to have a c++ environment, but the preferred way is the plan9 one, which implies no c++.
>So modern operation system with out C++ support is something...unusual
>(i don't know right word in english, that describe what i want to say
>:D)?
>
probably you could say plan9 is not "typical" in this aspect.
slds.
gabi
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question... 2008-02-04 12:12 Re: [9fans] A newbie question gdiaz @ 2008-02-04 12:47 ` Filipp Andronov 2008-02-04 13:01 ` Uriel 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Filipp Andronov @ 2008-02-04 12:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > Reading 9fans mail list archives you will notice C++ and the "object oriented model" is not > much appreciated, there are a lot of references (including great fortunes entries) about this > topic. Yeah, i have notice that, but from my point of view, there are very many software where object oriented model is perfect way. GUI toolkit for example, or file system. I didn't see Plan9 file systems sources yet, but linux VFS object oriented and some proprietary database vfs, that i have seen are also object oriented. In fact all this stuff was written in C, where you have pointers to functions in structures, but it would be much simple to develop it with full OO support. > Search for the discussions, i think there has been other attemps to build a c++ > environment, (Steve got cfront working, take a look at the contrib software section of the > wiki) I does not seen it yet, but cfront is not "modern C++" compiler as far as i know. So i think that many software that was written with full C++ features will no work with cfront compiler. Of course i don't know for sure, and i will explore this later (as far as ьн Plan9 will fly :D) > there is people who will love to have a c++ environment, but the preferred way is the plan9 > one, which implies no c++. Hmm, i think that c++ have right for live in Plan9, just because it will be very hard to port some soft without it. Of course it is possible in theory redevelop all modern software stack from scratch...but in practice it is not something that people could do ) > probably you could say plan9 is not "typical" in this aspect. I mean that when you get some operation system and then you are notice that it has no C++ (or even worse, C) environment the first filing is shock :)) To say the truth, when i've heard about Plan9 at first time, i have expect meetings with GCC and it was realy shock for me to see new C compile and no C++ support. Now i'm understand that it was stupid, but first feeling...No IDE for development, no C++ support, no GCC environment, no autotools...It is not bad at all, but it was suddenly :) 2008/2/4, gdiaz@9grid.es <gdiaz@9grid.es>: > Hola, > > Reading 9fans mail list archives you will notice C++ and the "object oriented model" is not much appreciated, there are a lot of references (including great fortunes entries) about this topic. > > Search for the discussions, i think there has been other attemps to build a c++ environment, (Steve got cfront working, take a look at the contrib software section of the wiki) > > there is people who will love to have a c++ environment, but the preferred way is the plan9 one, which implies no c++. > > > >So modern operation system with out C++ support is something...unusual > >(i don't know right word in english, that describe what i want to say > >:D)? > > > > probably you could say plan9 is not "typical" in this aspect. > > slds. > > gabi > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question... 2008-02-04 12:47 ` Filipp Andronov @ 2008-02-04 13:01 ` Uriel 2008-02-04 13:41 ` Eris Discordia 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Uriel @ 2008-02-04 13:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 2008/2/4 Filipp Andronov <filipp.andronov@gmail.com>: > > Reading 9fans mail list archives you will notice C++ and the "object oriented model" is not > much appreciated, there are a lot of references (including great fortunes entries) about this > topic. > Yeah, i have notice that, but from my point of view, there are very > many software where object oriented model is perfect way. GUI toolkit > for example, or file system. I didn't see Plan9 file systems sources > yet, but linux VFS object oriented and some proprietary database vfs, > that i have seen are also object oriented. In fact all this stuff was > written in C, where you have pointers to functions in structures, but > it would be much simple to develop it with full OO support. If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them... > > probably you could say plan9 is not "typical" in this aspect. > I mean that when you get some operation system and then you are notice > that it has no C++ (or even worse, C) environment the first filing is > shock :)) Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a billion times before. > To say the truth, when i've heard about Plan9 at first time, i have > expect meetings with GCC and it was realy shock for me to see new C > compile and no C++ support. > Now i'm understand that it was stupid, but first feeling...No IDE for > development, no C++ support, no GCC environment, no autotools...It is > not bad at all, but it was suddenly :) Some 20 years 'suddenly'... uriel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question... 2008-02-04 13:01 ` Uriel @ 2008-02-04 13:41 ` Eris Discordia 2008-02-04 13:59 ` Anant Narayanan 2008-02-04 19:22 ` Skip Tavakkolian 0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-02-04 13:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:01:49 -0000, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote: > If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them... > > Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans > archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a > billion times before. > > Some 20 years 'suddenly'... > > uriel I wonder if you are bitter or something about Plan 9, or the people who are trying to learn about it. Because you seem to be trying your best to deter them. What is an "old path" to you, is "the new way" to us, the hobbyists among us particularly, and we need some incentive, some supportive character perhaps, to encourage us along the way. The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that they ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever animosity towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind through the years, should not have anything to do with their need/want to learn about Plan 9. They do "not" need your smart-alecky quoting of Rob Pike. What they need is some guidance in their transition, regardless of their purpose or previous experiences. If you are not kind enough to help, you can at least stand by while others do that. The above is not "ad hominem," by the way. I do not mean it to be so, in the least. I am only trying to point out my not-so-positive impression of your post. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A newbie question... 2008-02-04 13:41 ` Eris Discordia @ 2008-02-04 13:59 ` Anant Narayanan 2008-02-04 14:36 ` Eris Discordia ` (2 more replies) 2008-02-04 19:22 ` Skip Tavakkolian 1 sibling, 3 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Anant Narayanan @ 2008-02-04 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous > development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that > they ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever > animosity towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind > through the years, should not have anything to do with their need/ > want to learn about Plan 9. They do "not" need your smart-alecky > quoting of Rob Pike. What they need is some guidance in their > transition, regardless of their purpose or previous experiences. If > you are not kind enough to help, you can at least stand by while > others do that. It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before - rekindling the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they have. Cheers, Anant ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A newbie question... 2008-02-04 13:59 ` Anant Narayanan @ 2008-02-04 14:36 ` Eris Discordia 2008-02-04 14:43 ` Martin Neubauer 2008-02-06 9:53 ` Greg Comeau 2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Eris Discordia @ 2008-02-04 14:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:59:41 -0000, Anant Narayanan <anant@kix.in> wrote: > It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning > GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before - rekindling > the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they have. > > Cheers, > Anant You are in the right, or rather you would have been in the right were the original post about the "aesthetical" aspects of the GNU project and/or C++, or whether the GNU philosophy is sound. However, Filipp Andronov asked about the development options available on Plan 9, how they compared to what she/he has already seen, and whether there were equivalents to lighten his burden of porting something to Plan 9. A perfectly OK question, that can, and even should, be asked every once in a while. What she/he got from Uriel was this: GNU is bad... a. ... because it is not Plan 9. b. ... because I think so. c. ... because it has loyal followers. d. ... because it created autoconf. e. ... because it is Not UNIX. f. ... because it has popularized a certain toolchain. g. ... because it does not measure up to Bell Labs in some respect. Now, these may be valid or not, but they are certainly irrelevant. And Filipp Andronov said that: On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 08:44:57 -0000, Filipp Andronov <filipp.andronov@gmail.com> wrote: > Hmmm, my question was not about new ideological war "GNU vs Plan9". Other people posted much better, and more helpful, responses, cf., On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 09:46:20 -0000, <kokamoto@hera.eonet.ne.jp> wrote: > C++ has not been included in Plan 9 since the third edition, but the > source code is available, and Steve Simon has made some updates. > Once you have abaco the way I said to get it, you also have Federico > Benavento's contrib system. With it, all you need is > contrib/install steve/cfront > Otherwise, get contrib with > /n/sources/contrib/fgb/root/rc/bin/contrib/install fgb/contrib > and then do the above. Then, to compile a C++ program: > c++/8c x.C # considering .C is the C++ extension > c++/8l -o x x.8 > The one thing: don't use > #include <iostream> > using namespace std; > You will need > #include <iostream.h> > which does that for you. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A newbie question... 2008-02-04 13:59 ` Anant Narayanan 2008-02-04 14:36 ` Eris Discordia @ 2008-02-04 14:43 ` Martin Neubauer 2008-02-06 9:53 ` Greg Comeau 2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Martin Neubauer @ 2008-02-04 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs * Anant Narayanan (anant@kix.in) wrote: > >The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous > >development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that > >they ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever > >animosity towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind > >through the years, should not have anything to do with their need/ > >want to learn about Plan 9. They do "not" need your smart-alecky > >quoting of Rob Pike. What they need is some guidance in their > >transition, regardless of their purpose or previous experiences. If > >you are not kind enough to help, you can at least stand by while > >others do that. > > It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning > GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before - > rekindling the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they > have. > > Cheers, > Anant Another issue is the implicit assumption that a new environment which doesn't provide all the familiar things one is grown accustomed to is automatically defective. It's actually not that hard to just get to know things for a few weeks (Plan 9 really is pretty accessible) and then attempt to tackle usability issues that have arisen rather than trying to recreate a linux environment (particularly as there already is a perfectly adequate linux environment out there - it's called linux.) Perhaps Andrzej Rosłanowski put it best (speaking about set theory, though): ``If you want to read mathematics, first learn its language, get educated, don't complain about your willies.'' Martin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A newbie question... 2008-02-04 13:59 ` Anant Narayanan 2008-02-04 14:36 ` Eris Discordia 2008-02-04 14:43 ` Martin Neubauer @ 2008-02-06 9:53 ` Greg Comeau 2008-02-06 10:02 ` erik quanstrom 2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Greg Comeau @ 2008-02-06 9:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans In article <B266EDD6-7572-4528-BC5D-8949F7311DBF@kix.in>, Anant Narayanan <9fans@cse.psu.edu> wrote: >> The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous >> development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that >> they ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever >> animosity towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind >> through the years, should not have anything to do with their need/ >> want to learn about Plan 9. They do "not" need your smart-alecky >> quoting of Rob Pike. What they need is some guidance in their >> transition, regardless of their purpose or previous experiences. If >> you are not kind enough to help, you can at least stand by while >> others do that. > >It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning >GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before - >rekindling the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they >have. Anybody have a URL link handy? Thanks. -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.9 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A newbie question... 2008-02-06 9:53 ` Greg Comeau @ 2008-02-06 10:02 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2008-02-06 10:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comeau, 9fans 9fans.net/archive - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question... 2008-02-04 13:41 ` Eris Discordia 2008-02-04 13:59 ` Anant Narayanan @ 2008-02-04 19:22 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2008-02-04 23:54 ` Michael Andronov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2008-02-04 19:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans checking the 9fans archives is a good place to start. many topics have already been discussed in great detail. it also gives new 9fans an idea of who to pay attention to and who to ignore. > On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:01:49 -0000, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote: > >> If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them... >> >> Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans >> archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a >> billion times before. >> >> Some 20 years 'suddenly'... >> >> uriel > > I wonder if you are bitter or something about Plan 9, or the people who > are trying to learn about it. Because you seem to be trying your best to > deter them. What is an "old path" to you, is "the new way" to us, the > hobbyists among us particularly, and we need some incentive, some > supportive character perhaps, to encourage us along the way. > > The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous > development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that they > ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever animosity > towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind through the years, > should not have anything to do with their need/want to learn about Plan 9. > They do "not" need your smart-alecky quoting of Rob Pike. What they need > is some guidance in their transition, regardless of their purpose or > previous experiences. If you are not kind enough to help, you can at least > stand by while others do that. > > The above is not "ad hominem," by the way. I do not mean it to be so, in > the least. I am only trying to point out my not-so-positive impression of > your post. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question... 2008-02-04 19:22 ` Skip Tavakkolian @ 2008-02-04 23:54 ` Michael Andronov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Michael Andronov @ 2008-02-04 23:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3086 bytes --] Checking the archives - definitely a useful step, and should be considered as step #1 probably in all forums... Saying that, I tried it myself. I have spent some time on web trying to find "C++ and Plan 9 history"... The most common archive access, I managed to find, is: http://9fans.net/archive/ with an option of google search through... I tried that with 'C++ Plan9'.... and indeed got multiple pages from archive... most of which were interesting from historic point of view, but not too useful from understanding of what has been done, what has not been done, why, etc... The point is that above mentioned way to search archive... is not too useful... If somebody can advise a better way for pre-screening archives, the advice would be highly appreciated. Another point is that before I asked the question about c++ under plan 9 as one the newbies questions a couple of weeks ago ( just before Philipp picked up the ball), the archive has been searched indeed... So, Anant wish is already granted. :) Finally, thanks again for all comments and nice discussion on the topic. On Feb 4, 2008 2:22 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote: > checking the 9fans archives is a good place to start. many topics > have already been discussed in great detail. it also gives new 9fans > an idea of who to pay attention to and who to ignore. > > > On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:01:49 -0000, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them... > >> > >> Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans > >> archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a > >> billion times before. > >> > >> Some 20 years 'suddenly'... > >> > >> uriel > > > > I wonder if you are bitter or something about Plan 9, or the people who > > are trying to learn about it. Because you seem to be trying your best to > > deter them. What is an "old path" to you, is "the new way" to us, the > > hobbyists among us particularly, and we need some incentive, some > > supportive character perhaps, to encourage us along the way. > > > > The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous > > development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that they > > ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever animosity > > towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind through the years, > > should not have anything to do with their need/want to learn about Plan > 9. > > They do "not" need your smart-alecky quoting of Rob Pike. What they need > > is some guidance in their transition, regardless of their purpose or > > previous experiences. If you are not kind enough to help, you can at > least > > stand by while others do that. > > > > The above is not "ad hominem," by the way. I do not mean it to be so, in > > the least. I am only trying to point out my not-so-positive impression > of > > your post. > > > > -- > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3779 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-02-06 10:02 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2008-02-04 12:12 Re: [9fans] A newbie question gdiaz 2008-02-04 12:47 ` Filipp Andronov 2008-02-04 13:01 ` Uriel 2008-02-04 13:41 ` Eris Discordia 2008-02-04 13:59 ` Anant Narayanan 2008-02-04 14:36 ` Eris Discordia 2008-02-04 14:43 ` Martin Neubauer 2008-02-06 9:53 ` Greg Comeau 2008-02-06 10:02 ` erik quanstrom 2008-02-04 19:22 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2008-02-04 23:54 ` Michael Andronov
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