[9fans] synthetic filesystems and changing data

[9fans] synthetic filesystems and changing data

[John Marshall]

Hi,

I am trying to understand the general practice, under
Plan 9, for synthetic filesystems for serving up a "file"
which:
1) returns data that changes (quickly), and
2) returns data whose size is larger than the message
    size agreed upon at *version interchange.

Practically, what I am wondering is:
1) what to do when the "file" content changes between
    multiple *read operations (assuming that the reads
    are done quickly)? Is it just tough luck for the client?
2) whether or not synthetic filesystems generally handle
    (or not) the offset parameter? I imagine to do this
    requires relatively static content, is difficult, or
    there is an assumption that the size of the content
    _must_ fit in the message.

Thanks,
John

Re: [9fans] synthetic filesystems and changing data

[erik quanstrom]

why not just tie the fid to a "file" version.  then it would be easy
to handle offsets.

- erik

On Thu Aug  9 21:47:02 EDT 2007, John.Marshall@ec.gc.ca wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am trying to understand the general practice, under
> Plan 9, for synthetic filesystems for serving up a "file"
> which:
> 1) returns data that changes (quickly), and
> 2) returns data whose size is larger than the message
>     size agreed upon at *version interchange.
> 
> Practically, what I am wondering is:
> 1) what to do when the "file" content changes between
>     multiple *read operations (assuming that the reads
>     are done quickly)? Is it just tough luck for the client?
> 2) whether or not synthetic filesystems generally handle
>     (or not) the offset parameter? I imagine to do this
>     requires relatively static content, is difficult, or
>     there is an assumption that the size of the content
>     _must_ fit in the message.
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> 

Re: [9fans] synthetic filesystems and changing data

[Charles Forsyth]

> why not just tie the fid to a "file" version.  then it would be easy
> to handle offsets.

that's effectively what i do in similar cases.  so does ndb/cs, amongst others.

Re: [9fans] synthetic filesystems and changing data

[maht]

And just to elucidate further one frees the data on a clunk.

It could be the source of a DoS if your 9p is public facing.
>> why not just tie the fid to a "file" version.  then it would be easy
>> to handle offsets.
>>     
>
> that's effectively what i do in similar cases.  so does ndb/cs, amongst others.
>
>
>   

Re: [9fans] synthetic filesystems and changing data

[matt]

The coder for the file system makes the choice whether to keep a 
snapshot of the data to be read per FID, this way the FID reader will 
always get the file they asked for, which, after the first read, isn't 
necessarily the current version or to just return whatever each Tread 
asks for regardless of whether the underlying data has changed.

It is akin to an SQL cursor. When I make an SQL request the rows 
returned are a snapshot of the data when the query was made. If I read 
them at one row per second there's a chance that the actual data in the 
datastore changes between reads.

Either way there's a "tough luck" aspect, if you have a solution I'm 
sure everyone would be delighted to hear it :)

It's a perinnial problem. When opening a file for writing some programs 
(acme for instance) will warn you if the file has changed since you 
opened it. That's a solution to the same problem.

Matt

Re: [9fans] synthetic filesystems and changing data

[John Marshall]

matt wrote:
> The coder for the file system makes the choice whether to keep a 
> snapshot of the data to be read per FID, this way the FID reader will 
> always get the file they asked for, which, after the first read, isn't 
> necessarily the current version or to just return whatever each Tread 
> asks for regardless of whether the underlying data has changed.
> 
> It is akin to an SQL cursor. When I make an SQL request the rows 
> returned are a snapshot of the data when the query was made. If I read 
> them at one row per second there's a chance that the actual data in the 
> datastore changes between reads.

Hi,

Although I was not immediately convinced that a versioning approach was
all that useful, I can now see that it roughly matches what I've always
done for servicing web requests for dynamically generated data: each
connection keeps a version, which may or may not be out of date, which
problem is left up to the client to deal with. I guess the difference was
that buffering each version in the web context has always been so natural.
All the "state" (connection, user, object being referenced, cached data)
was kept separately for the entire lifetime of the connection/transaction
and I did not have to worry about anything. I could even timeout the
transaction easily. In the versioning case I would have to 1) store the
different versions somewhere (local fs or memory), 2) track their
association with the related fids, 3) and remove them on clunk. And I
would have to keep the version around until the clunk which might happen
in 1s, 10 minutes, or never.

> Either way there's a "tough luck" aspect, if you have a solution I'm 
> sure everyone would be delighted to hear it :)
>
> It's a perinnial problem. When opening a file for writing some programs 
> (acme for instance) will warn you if the file has changed since you 
> opened it. That's a solution to the same problem.

 From people's experience, do the following seem like reasonable
alternatives, if the situation allows for it?
1) return an error message if the message size is too small to return
    the content in one response? The application would simply trap for
    the error condition and retry.
2) if, over the course of returning the individual messages for a read,
    an error message was returned which indicated a changed file (the
    read operation would no longer return data)? Again, the application
    would simply trap for the error condition and retry. This is
    something like what editors do (acme, as you mention), except that
    the read operation is affected rather than trying to prevent an
    overwrite of possibly newer data.

I guess I am trying to avoid versioning because there are too many
aspects that I am concerned I could not reasonably deal with. I'd
like to be able to support something akin to an atomic transaction
(although it would involve multiple reads/messages).

Any comments on a third option?
3) if versioning is used, reads would only be supported on a cached
    version for a limited period of time. Afterwards, the cached
    version would be dropped and an error message would be returned
    indicating something like "File version has expired."

I realize that this none of these may be general solutions but
for specific kinds of data (e.g., status information) they may be.
And, the client accessing the files would have to be prepared to
deal with the different kinds of error messages. The goal is to
get correct/consistent data.

Thanks for everyone's input,
John

Re: [9fans] synthetic filesystems and changing data

[Kris Maglione]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 08:32:18AM -0400, John Marshall wrote:
> Although I was not immediately convinced that a versioning approach was
> all that useful, I can now see that it roughly matches what I've always
> done for servicing web requests for dynamically generated data: each
> connection keeps a version...

Using lib9p, each open Fid gives you a void* pointer to store 
whatever fid-specific data you need. Whether that's just a copy 
of the file's contents, or you implement some copy-on-write 
scheme, it's not so different. You can even timeout connections 
fairly easily, if you want to. Just keep a list of open Fids, 
with pointers to structs containing the time they were opened. 
Periodically check the list for timed out Fids, free the 
resources they occupy, and return Rerror when the next read 
comes in.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Any given program will expand to fill all available memory.

Re: [9fans] synthetic filesystems and changing data

[nemo]

In cases where multiple clients might map to the same fid you can also
freeze in a buffer file contents when the offset if zero, and serve from there
for further reads. Using 9p (and no cache in the client) means that you can use
the fid to mux the clients, and assign also a buffer per client, and
release at clunk.