* [9fans] quote o' the day @ 2010-03-25 14:08 erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 15:04 ` maht 2010-03-25 17:31 ` blstuart 0 siblings, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 14:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans http://lwn.net/Articles/378219/ "[...] anything which combines tricky locking and 30-line preprocessor macros is going to raise eyebrows. But the core concept here is simple: [...] oh, really? - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 14:08 [9fans] quote o' the day erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 15:04 ` maht 2010-03-25 16:56 ` ron minnich 2010-03-25 17:31 ` blstuart 1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread From: maht @ 2010-03-25 15:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 25/03/2010 14:08, erik quanstrom wrote: > http://lwn.net/Articles/378219/ > "[...] anything which combines tricky locking > and 30-line preprocessor macros is going to raise eyebrows. > But the core concept here is simple: [...] > > oh, really? > > - erik > > Trying to acquire one lock per CPU will work just dandy. > One such case - the target for this new lock - is vfsmount_lock, which is required (for read access) in pathname lookup operations. Lookups are frequent events, and are clearly performance-critical. On the other hand, write access is only needed when filesystems are being mounted or unmounted - a much rarer occurrence. So a brlock is a good fit here, and one small piece (out of many) of the VFS scalability puzzle has been put into place. bye bye private Linux namespaces, it wasn't even nice knowing you ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 15:04 ` maht @ 2010-03-25 16:56 ` ron minnich 2010-03-25 17:11 ` Corey Thomasson 2010-03-25 17:29 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2010-03-25 16:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs It just keeps getting better: $ hugeadm --create-global-mounts $ hugeadm --pool-pages-max DEFAULT:8G $ hugeadm --set-recommended-min_free_kbytes $ hugeadm --set-recommended-shmmax $ hugeadm --pool-pages-min DEFAULT:2048MB $ hugeadm --pool-pages-max DEFAULT:8192MB "In this installment, it was shown that with minimal amounts of additional work, huge pages can be easily used to improve benchmarks." woo hoo! ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 16:56 ` ron minnich @ 2010-03-25 17:11 ` Corey Thomasson 2010-03-25 17:15 ` maht 2010-03-25 17:42 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-25 17:29 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Corey Thomasson @ 2010-03-25 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Not really related, but I got a good laugh from this. As soon as I opened this email in gmail, the "targeted ad" changed to "Editing xml is difficult." Followed by some stuff about Xopus xml editor, but still. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:56 PM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote: > > It just keeps getting better: > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 17:11 ` Corey Thomasson @ 2010-03-25 17:15 ` maht 2010-03-25 17:26 ` Corey Thomasson 2010-03-25 17:33 ` Robert Raschke 2010-03-25 17:42 ` David Leimbach 1 sibling, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: maht @ 2010-03-25 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 25/03/2010 17:11, Corey Thomasson wrote: > Not really related, but I got a good laugh from this. > As soon as I opened this email in gmail, the "targeted ad" changed to > > "Editing xml is difficult." > well that is true, the following snippets are not the same, the second has two more nodes <a><b>hi</b></a> <a> <b>hi</b> </a> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 17:15 ` maht @ 2010-03-25 17:26 ` Corey Thomasson 2010-03-25 17:33 ` Robert Raschke 1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Corey Thomasson @ 2010-03-25 17:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Of course it's true, that's why its funny. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 1:15 PM, maht <maht-9fans@maht0x0r.net> wrote: > well that is true, the following snippets are not the same, the second has > two more nodes [...] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 17:15 ` maht 2010-03-25 17:26 ` Corey Thomasson @ 2010-03-25 17:33 ` Robert Raschke 1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Robert Raschke @ 2010-03-25 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 631 bytes --] On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:15 PM, maht <maht-9fans@maht0x0r.net> wrote: > On 25/03/2010 17:11, Corey Thomasson wrote: > >> Not really related, but I got a good laugh from this. >> As soon as I opened this email in gmail, the "targeted ad" changed to >> >> "Editing xml is difficult." >> >> > well that is true, the following snippets are not the same, the second has > two more nodes > > <a><b>hi</b></a> > > <a> > <b>hi</b> > </a> > > > And depending on what parser you're using, you might get the same tree or not! Found out recently, that some parsers very "helpfully" elide "empty" TEXT nodes. Robby [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1182 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 17:11 ` Corey Thomasson 2010-03-25 17:15 ` maht @ 2010-03-25 17:42 ` David Leimbach 1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: David Leimbach @ 2010-03-25 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 602 bytes --] The efficiency of XML when being processed by computers or humans proves that it's neither machine nor human readable, despite all the advertising. Dave On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Corey Thomasson <cthom.lists@gmail.com>wrote: > Not really related, but I got a good laugh from this. > As soon as I opened this email in gmail, the "targeted ad" changed to > > "Editing xml is difficult." > > Followed by some stuff about Xopus xml editor, but still. > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:56 PM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > It just keeps getting better: > > > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1003 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 16:56 ` ron minnich 2010-03-25 17:11 ` Corey Thomasson @ 2010-03-25 17:29 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Thu Mar 25 12:58:22 EDT 2010, rminnich@gmail.com wrote: > It just keeps getting better: > > $ hugeadm --create-global-mounts > $ hugeadm --pool-pages-max DEFAULT:8G > $ hugeadm --set-recommended-min_free_kbytes > $ hugeadm --set-recommended-shmmax > $ hugeadm --pool-pages-min DEFAULT:2048MB > $ hugeadm --pool-pages-max DEFAULT:8192MB > > "In this installment, it was shown that with minimal amounts of > additional work, huge pages can be easily used to improve benchmarks." and, finally $ hugeadm --induce-involuntary-twitching DEFAULTMODE:crazyunixguy \ --involuntary-twitching-random-seed 2269 \ --involuntary-twitching-mean-frequency 1000 milliseconds \ --involuntary-twitching-ready --involundary-twitching-set --go \ --no-i-really-mean-it was it just me, or was the performance improvement underwhelming, considering the downsides and the fact that it was a synthetic benchmark? - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 14:08 [9fans] quote o' the day erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 15:04 ` maht @ 2010-03-25 17:31 ` blstuart 2010-03-25 16:44 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-28 23:51 ` hiro 1 sibling, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: blstuart @ 2010-03-25 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans It's this kind of intellectual ugliness that makes the teacher in me hang my head in shame. How could we be managing to produce a whole generation of programmers who actually buy into that stuff? And it's not as if it's a fad that's getting better. If anything it's getting worse. Somehow we've made it laudible to go to any lengths to avoid writing a line of real code and to run as far away from hardware as we can. That and worship at the alter of "code reuse" have created a world where if one abstraction is good, then 432 must be better. If a symbol appears that's not defined in 17 different places all surrounded by #ifdef's, then that's not "professional." Everyone is afraid to point out the nudity of the XML monarch for fear of being branded as one afraid of change. I humbly extend my apologies for any of this that might have been promulgated by any of my former students :( \end{soapbox} BLS ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 17:31 ` blstuart @ 2010-03-25 16:44 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-25 18:31 ` blstuart 2010-03-25 18:33 ` andrey mirtchovski 2010-03-28 23:51 ` hiro 1 sibling, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-25 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:31:20 -0300, <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote: > It's this kind of intellectual ugliness that makes the > teacher in me hang my head in shame. How could > we be managing to produce a whole generation of > programmers who actually buy into that stuff? And > it's not as if it's a fad that's getting better. If anything > it's getting worse. Somehow we've made it laudible > to go to any lengths to avoid writing a line of real > code and to run as far away from hardware as we > can. That and worship at the alter of "code reuse" > have created a world where if one abstraction is > good, then 432 must be better. If a symbol appears > that's not defined in 17 different places all surrounded > by #ifdef's, then that's not "professional." Everyone > is afraid to point out the nudity of the XML monarch > for fear of being branded as one afraid of change. I assume you haven't studied human behavior much... sadly we are socially dependent, we will follow even if we know something is harmful. Look at fad diets and superstitions. I always have to laugh at the code reuse crap; I though that was what a library was. Do modern programmers not know how to create libraries? That must not be true, there are something like 11 libraries on UNIX that all do the same stuff, repeated for each new instance of 'stuff'. Sadly I think this may be the state the computer industry is heading into; hacks upon hacks, with little logical design. These hackers using techniques from the 1970's to program machines in the 2000's .. 2010's; all the while these techniques have decayed and warped to "fit" the modern era. May be I've studied too much history and may be I've studied too much psychology, but, I think the only way for things to change for the better, is for what we have now to collapse. I do hope I'm wrong. > I humbly extend my apologies for any of this that > might have been promulgated by any of my former > students :( > > \end{soapbox} > > BLS > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 16:44 ` Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-25 18:31 ` blstuart 2010-03-25 18:33 ` andrey mirtchovski 1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: blstuart @ 2010-03-25 18:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:31:20 -0300, <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote: > >> It's this kind of intellectual ugliness that makes the >> teacher in me hang my head in shame. How could >> we be managing to produce a whole generation of >> programmers who actually buy into that stuff? And >> ... > > I assume you haven't studied human behavior much... Not much in the collective. My AI work was focused on learning in individual organisms. > sadly we are socially > dependent, we will follow even if we know something is harmful. Look at > fad diets and superstitions. I have seen that, though I still fail to grasp it. > I always have to laugh at the code reuse crap; I though that was what a > library was. Yep. I try to put it in perspective in the classroom by saying that we've had code reuse ever since Grace Hopper put a roll of paper tape for the Mark I in a drawer and labled it square root. (Slightly fictionalized, but not too far from reality.) > These hackers using > techniques from the 1970's to program machines in the 2000's .. 2010's; > all the while these techniques have decayed and warped to "fit" the modern > era. I also see the other extreme where trendy seems to be preferred over straighforward. There has to be a balance. We have to keep open minds about new techniques, but we also have to be versed in older techniques so there can be some reasonable judgement about when to apply which. Using the ABC technology (for any of a million values of ABC over the years) because it was written up in some management magazines and some marketing type said "you have to or we won't sell any" is neither engineering nor science and has no place in Computer Science or the Art of Comptuer Programming. (And for the record, no marketing person I've ever encountered who said something like that had the slightest clue about either the technology or the *market*. It has always amazed me how much the story is different when you bypass marketing and talk to the customer directly.) (And don't get me started on "Software Engineering." That's a whole 'nother soapbox I don't have time for today.) > May be I've studied too much history and may be I've studied too much > psychology, but, I think the only way for things to change for the better, > is for what we have now to collapse. I do hope I'm wrong. I hope you are too, but I must admit that I've often had the same thought. It's been observed, even semi-rigorously that the set of programmers falls into a bi-modal distribution with a small group that's about an order of magnitude better than the large group, and very little in between. When you probe into these bizzare techniques, tools, processes, etc, the rationale always seems to boil down to preventing the large, lower calibre group from doing too much damage, and to allow them to have a modicum of productivity. Unfotunately, the tyrany of the majority seems to prevent the examples of the Kens and Dennises of the world from guiding the progress of the art. I have a hard time envisioning how to make it better short of some kind of collapse that quashes the majority. In the mean time, I just try to hide away in a corner and affiliate mostly with the upper node of the distribution. But I should get back to real work. So, I step down from the soapbox again. BLS ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 16:44 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-25 18:31 ` blstuart @ 2010-03-25 18:33 ` andrey mirtchovski 2010-03-25 18:37 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 18:51 ` blstuart 1 sibling, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2010-03-25 18:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs in similar vein, there's this handful guide on how to make your life really hard in 11 easy steps: http://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/unix_file_replacement.html make sure you check out the final copy.c linked at the bottom of the page ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 18:33 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2010-03-25 18:37 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 18:51 ` blstuart 1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 18:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > make sure you check out the final copy.c linked at the bottom of the page don't follow this link. it is a trojan that will eat into your brain and turn it into grey goo. ☺ - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 18:33 ` andrey mirtchovski 2010-03-25 18:37 ` erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 18:51 ` blstuart 2010-03-25 21:17 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread From: blstuart @ 2010-03-25 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mirtchovski, 9fans > in similar vein, there's this handful guide on how to make your life > really hard in 11 easy steps: > > http://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/unix_file_replacement.html > > make sure you check out the final copy.c linked at the bottom of the page It's a sign of the apocalypse. The configuration of the 6th edition kernel Lions presented was about 10,000 lines of code. This version of cp is nearly 1/4 of that, and the function copy_internal() is over 1000 lines long. I'm clearly not smart enough to function in a world where cp is that complex... Back to real work...again...for real this time...I promise... BLS ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 18:51 ` blstuart @ 2010-03-25 21:17 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2010-03-25 20:26 ` Patrick Kelly ` (4 more replies) 0 siblings, 5 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2010-03-25 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs; +Cc: mirtchovski As a example for our students we use http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=coreutils.git;a=blob;f=src/cat.c;hb=HEAD versus http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cat.c In fact, we have both printed on paper hanging from the wall of the corridor near our office. Let's hope they learn. On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:51 PM, <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote: >> in similar vein, there's this handful guide on how to make your life >> really hard in 11 easy steps: >> >> http://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/unix_file_replacement.html >> >> make sure you check out the final copy.c linked at the bottom of the page > > It's a sign of the apocalypse. The configuration of the 6th edition > kernel Lions presented was about 10,000 lines of code. This version > of cp is nearly 1/4 of that, and the function copy_internal() is over > 1000 lines long. I'm clearly not smart enough to function in a world > where cp is that complex... > > Back to real work...again...for real this time...I promise... > BLS > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 21:17 ` Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2010-03-25 20:26 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-25 21:58 ` Tim Newsham ` (3 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-25 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:17:30 -0300, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org> wrote: > As a example for our students we use > > http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=coreutils.git;a=blob;f=src/cat.c;hb=HEAD I'm going to have nightmares tonight... > versus > > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cat.c Wait, nevermind :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 21:17 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2010-03-25 20:26 ` Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-25 21:58 ` Tim Newsham 2010-03-25 21:21 ` Patrick Kelly ` (2 more replies) 2010-03-26 9:19 ` hugo rivera ` (2 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 3 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Tim Newsham @ 2010-03-25 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs; +Cc: mirtchovski > As a example for our students we use > > http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=coreutils.git;a=blob;f=src/cat.c;hb=HEAD > > versus > > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cat.c > > In fact, we have both printed on paper hanging from the wall of the corridor > near our office. Let's hope they learn. You should also add: http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/trunk/src/cmd/cat.s Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 21:58 ` Tim Newsham @ 2010-03-25 21:21 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-25 22:37 ` Justin Jackson 2010-03-25 22:57 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) 2010-03-26 0:36 ` Corey Thomasson 2 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-25 21:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:58:30 -0300, Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net> wrote: >> As a example for our students we use >> >> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=coreutils.git;a=blob;f=src/cat.c;hb=HEAD >> >> versus >> >> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cat.c >> >> In fact, we have both printed on paper hanging from the wall of the >> corridor >> near our office. Let's hope they learn. > > You should also add: > http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/trunk/src/cmd/cat.s When assembly is more readable than C... you know you've done something wrong. Oh wait, thats called a 'feature', silly me! > > Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 21:21 ` Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-25 22:37 ` Justin Jackson 2010-03-25 22:53 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread From: Justin Jackson @ 2010-03-25 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 793 bytes --] On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Patrick Kelly <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:58:30 -0300, Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net> wrote: > >>> As a example for our students we use >>> >>> >>> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=coreutils.git;a=blob;f=src/cat.c;hb=HEAD >>> >>> versus >>> >>> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cat.c >>> >>> In fact, we have both printed on paper hanging from the wall of the >>> corridor >>> near our office. Let's hope they learn. This is especially funny: 398 /* Output a currency symbol if requested (-e). */ 399 400 if (show_ends) 401 *bpout++ = '$'; 402 403 /* Output the newline. */ 404 405 *bpout++ = '\n'; [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1251 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 22:37 ` Justin Jackson @ 2010-03-25 22:53 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-03-25 22:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > 403 /* Output the newline. */ > 404 > 405 *bpout++ = '\n'; oddly, for such an obvious comment, it's not exactly what the code does, and somewhat misleading. that code just puts a newline in a buffer and increments a pointer. outputting is elsewhere. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 21:58 ` Tim Newsham 2010-03-25 21:21 ` Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-25 22:57 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) 2010-03-26 0:03 ` Anthony Sorace 2010-03-26 6:43 ` Tim Newsham 2010-03-26 0:36 ` Corey Thomasson 2 siblings, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) @ 2010-03-25 22:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > You should also add: > http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/trunk/src/cmd/cat.s Which returns 1062 lines of HTML+Javascript, completely unreadable in Abaco. The irony is stunning. --lyndon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 22:57 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) @ 2010-03-26 0:03 ` Anthony Sorace 2010-03-26 2:16 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) 2010-03-26 6:43 ` Tim Newsham 1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread From: Anthony Sorace @ 2010-03-26 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs >> You should also add: >> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/trunk/src/cmd/cat.s > > Which returns 1062 lines of HTML+Javascript, completely unreadable > in Abaco. not to spoil the irony, but that works here. it drops indentation, but that hardly qualifies as "completely unreadable". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-26 0:03 ` Anthony Sorace @ 2010-03-26 2:16 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) @ 2010-03-26 2:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > not to spoil the irony, but that works here. And now it works here, too. Before I was getting a blank window, or one line of "link ref=..." verbiage. Now that I think of it, I was seeing similar behaviour last week from other sites. I wonder if webfs is having problems ... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 22:57 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) 2010-03-26 0:03 ` Anthony Sorace @ 2010-03-26 6:43 ` Tim Newsham 2010-03-26 13:54 ` andrey mirtchovski 1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread From: Tim Newsham @ 2010-03-26 6:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs >> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/trunk/src/cmd/cat.s > Which returns 1062 lines of HTML+Javascript, completely unreadable > in Abaco. > The irony is stunning. URL to the raw file; 50% less irony: http://unix-jun72.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/src/cmd/cat.s > --lyndon Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-26 6:43 ` Tim Newsham @ 2010-03-26 13:54 ` andrey mirtchovski 2010-03-28 23:22 ` Jack Johnson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2010-03-26 13:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 198 bytes --] > URL to the raw file; 50% less irony: > http://unix-jun72.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/src/cmd/cat.s try as you might, the irony is unescapable (see the attached "helpful" suggestion by google). [-- Attachment #2: czech.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 38625 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-26 13:54 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2010-03-28 23:22 ` Jack Johnson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Jack Johnson @ 2010-03-28 23:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 5:54 AM, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote: > try as you might, the irony is unescapable (see the attached "helpful" > suggestion by google). It sounds like a competition. "Write a program that, when translated by Google into Czech, still produces valid output." -Jack ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 21:58 ` Tim Newsham 2010-03-25 21:21 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-25 22:57 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) @ 2010-03-26 0:36 ` Corey Thomasson 2 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Corey Thomasson @ 2010-03-26 0:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I wish I had that link the other day! Got into a debate about gnu cat etc. With a member of the local LUG. On Thursday, March 25, 2010, Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net> wrote: > > As a example for our students we use > > http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=coreutils.git;a=blob;f=src/cat.c;hb=HEAD > > versus > > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cat.c > > In fact, we have both printed on paper hanging from the wall of the corridor > near our office. Let's hope they learn. > > > You should also add: > http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/trunk/src/cmd/cat.s > > Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 21:17 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2010-03-25 20:26 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-25 21:58 ` Tim Newsham @ 2010-03-26 9:19 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-28 23:05 ` Eris Discordia [not found] ` <989B4954D6C952C13793229D@192.168.1.2> 4 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: hugo rivera @ 2010-03-26 9:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 2010/3/25 Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org>: > In fact, we have both printed on paper hanging from the wall of the corridor > near our office. Let's hope they learn. This is a great idea. I think I'll copy it :-) -- Hugo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 21:17 ` Francisco J Ballesteros ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-03-26 9:19 ` hugo rivera @ 2010-03-28 23:05 ` Eris Discordia [not found] ` <989B4954D6C952C13793229D@192.168.1.2> 4 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Eris Discordia @ 2010-03-28 23:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > In fact, we have both printed on paper hanging from the wall of the > corridor near our office. Let's hope they learn. Learn to... 1. ... not comment their code? 2. ... not include usage instructions? 3. ... not heed that their code might need to compile on any one of a number of platforms that are far from glitch-free? 4. ... not include a preamble introducing their file, automatically assuming they work in "clean environs" where nobody except people they know on a face-to-face basis commits to their code repository? 5. ... not accommodate their user base insisting they know better what's good for the users thereby dramatically cutting down the number of people who may want to merely use, and not hack, their code? 6. ... forget to see past appearances in others' code instead of simply and rationally counting the lines of code in the body of function 'simple_cat' for a proper comparison of equivalent functionality between a feature-heavy 'cat' and a minimalist 'cat' each with its own merits? 7. ... avoid provisioning for a time when 'coreutils,' in order to become feature-heavy, will inevitably contain copious amount of code that needs to be amenable to automated testing and documentation? 8. ... avoid any secondary optimization of their first solution under the illusion that every optimization counts as the dreaded "premature optimization?" 9. ... condescendingly refuse to write or maintain code that is capable of cooperation with a dominant archaic design which can only be phased out gradually? 10. ... allow themselves to be flattered by agreement from the close-knit community of like-minded developers fully shutting their minds close to the potential merits of functionally rival software? Never mind my trolling. I just needed to attention-whore. Continue, please. --On Thursday, March 25, 2010 22:17 +0100 Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org> wrote: > As a example for our students we use > > http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=coreutils.git;a=blob;f=src/cat.c;hb > =HEAD > > versus > > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cat.c > > In fact, we have both printed on paper hanging from the wall of the > corridor near our office. Let's hope they learn. > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:51 PM, <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote: >>> in similar vein, there's this handful guide on how to make your life >>> really hard in 11 easy steps: >>> >>> http://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/unix_file_replacement.html >>> >>> make sure you check out the final copy.c linked at the bottom of the >>> page >> >> It's a sign of the apocalypse. The configuration of the 6th edition >> kernel Lions presented was about 10,000 lines of code. This version >> of cp is nearly 1/4 of that, and the function copy_internal() is over >> 1000 lines long. I'm clearly not smart enough to function in a world >> where cp is that complex... >> >> Back to real work...again...for real this time...I promise... >> BLS >> >> >> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <989B4954D6C952C13793229D@192.168.1.2>]
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day [not found] ` <989B4954D6C952C13793229D@192.168.1.2> @ 2010-03-28 23:31 ` hiro 2010-03-28 23:41 ` Connor Lane Smith 1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2010-03-28 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 3/29/10, Eris Discordia <eris.discordia@gmail.com> wrote: >> In fact, we have both printed on paper hanging from the wall of the >> corridor near our office. Let's hope they learn. > > Learn to... > > 1. ... not comment their code? > > 2. ... not include usage instructions? > > 3. ... not heed that their code might need to compile on any one of a > number of platforms that are far from glitch-free? > > 4. ... not include a preamble introducing their file, automatically > assuming they work in "clean environs" where nobody except people they know > on a face-to-face basis commits to their code repository? > > 5. ... not accommodate their user base insisting they know better what's > good for the users thereby dramatically cutting down the number of people > who may want to merely use, and not hack, their code? > > 6. ... forget to see past appearances in others' code instead of simply and > rationally counting the lines of code in the body of function 'simple_cat' > for a proper comparison of equivalent functionality between a feature-heavy > 'cat' and a minimalist 'cat' each with its own merits? > > 7. ... avoid provisioning for a time when 'coreutils,' in order to become > feature-heavy, will inevitably contain copious amount of code that needs to > be amenable to automated testing and documentation? > > 8. ... avoid any secondary optimization of their first solution under the > illusion that every optimization counts as the dreaded "premature > optimization?" > > 9. ... condescendingly refuse to write or maintain code that is capable of > cooperation with a dominant archaic design which can only be phased out > gradually? > > 10. ... allow themselves to be flattered by agreement from the close-knit > community of like-minded developers fully shutting their minds close to the > potential merits of functionally rival software? > > > Never mind my trolling. I just needed to attention-whore. Continue, please. > > > > --On Thursday, March 25, 2010 22:17 +0100 Francisco J Ballesteros > <nemo@lsub.org> wrote: > >> As a example for our students we use >> >> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=coreutils.git;a=blob;f=src/cat.c;hb >> =HEAD >> >> versus >> >> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cat.c >> >> In fact, we have both printed on paper hanging from the wall of the >> corridor near our office. Let's hope they learn. >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:51 PM, <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote: >>>> in similar vein, there's this handful guide on how to make your life >>>> really hard in 11 easy steps: >>>> >>>> http://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/unix_file_replacement.html >>>> >>>> make sure you check out the final copy.c linked at the bottom of the >>>> page >>> >>> It's a sign of the apocalypse. The configuration of the 6th edition >>> kernel Lions presented was about 10,000 lines of code. This version >>> of cp is nearly 1/4 of that, and the function copy_internal() is over >>> 1000 lines long. I'm clearly not smart enough to function in a world >>> where cp is that complex... >>> >>> Back to real work...again...for real this time...I promise... >>> BLS >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > > Without reading your post: No, just ... that sometimes less is more. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day [not found] ` <989B4954D6C952C13793229D@192.168.1.2> 2010-03-28 23:31 ` hiro @ 2010-03-28 23:41 ` Connor Lane Smith 1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: Connor Lane Smith @ 2010-03-28 23:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Sorry if I'm feeding the troll, but... On 29 March 2010 00:05, Eris Discordia <eris.discordia@gmail.com> wrote: > 1. ... not comment their code? Comments lie. Code can't. Hence clarity of code is better than commented theses. > 2. ... not include usage instructions? $ man cat > 4. ... not include a preamble introducing their file, automatically assuming > they work in "clean environs" where nobody except people they know on a > face-to-face basis commits to their code repository? It can be identified by its filename. > 5. ... not accommodate their user base insisting they know better what's > good for the users thereby dramatically cutting down the number of people > who may want to merely use, and not hack, their code? Every user wants something different and incompatible. One cannot accomodate them all. > 6. ... forget to see past appearances in others' code instead of simply and > rationally counting the lines of code in the body of function 'simple_cat' > for a proper comparison of equivalent functionality between a feature-heavy > 'cat' and a minimalist 'cat' each with its own merits? A feature-heavy 'cat' has no merits beyond the minimalist 'cat'. If you want more features, write a new program. See: cat -v considered harmful. > 7. ... avoid provisioning for a time when 'coreutils,' in order to become > feature-heavy, will inevitably contain copious amount of code that needs to > be amenable to automated testing and documentation? See above. A program becoming feature-heavy is a failure in and of itself. Less is more. > 8. ... avoid any secondary optimization of their first solution under the > illusion that every optimization counts as the dreaded "premature > optimization?" Simplicity is more important than efficiency. Optimisation should only be done when there is an identifiable bottleneck. Cat has no such bottleneck that I'm aware of. > 9. ... condescendingly refuse to write or maintain code that is capable of > cooperation with a dominant archaic design which can only be phased out > gradually? Why does it have to be phased out gradually? The problems of Unix are too deep to fix. > 10. ... allow themselves to be flattered by agreement from the close-knit > community of like-minded developers fully shutting their minds close to the > potential merits of functionally rival software? If it's better for the system's users, it's better for the system's users. Again, sorry. cls ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] quote o' the day 2010-03-25 17:31 ` blstuart 2010-03-25 16:44 ` Patrick Kelly @ 2010-03-28 23:51 ` hiro 1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2010-03-28 23:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 3/25/10, blstuart@bellsouth.net <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote: > It's this kind of intellectual ugliness that makes the > teacher in me hang my head in shame. How could > we be managing to produce a whole generation of > programmers who actually buy into that stuff? And > it's not as if it's a fad that's getting better. If anything > it's getting worse. Somehow we've made it laudible > to go to any lengths to avoid writing a line of real > code and to run as far away from hardware as we > can. That and worship at the alter of "code reuse" > have created a world where if one abstraction is > good, then 432 must be better. If a symbol appears > that's not defined in 17 different places all surrounded > by #ifdef's, then that's not "professional." Everyone > is afraid to point out the nudity of the XML monarch > for fear of being branded as one afraid of change. > > I humbly extend my apologies for any of this that > might have been promulgated by any of my former > students :( > > \end{soapbox} > > BLS > > > Hurts! He wants to know if it hurts! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2010-03-28 23:51 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 33+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2010-03-25 14:08 [9fans] quote o' the day erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 15:04 ` maht 2010-03-25 16:56 ` ron minnich 2010-03-25 17:11 ` Corey Thomasson 2010-03-25 17:15 ` maht 2010-03-25 17:26 ` Corey Thomasson 2010-03-25 17:33 ` Robert Raschke 2010-03-25 17:42 ` David Leimbach 2010-03-25 17:29 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 17:31 ` blstuart 2010-03-25 16:44 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-25 18:31 ` blstuart 2010-03-25 18:33 ` andrey mirtchovski 2010-03-25 18:37 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 18:51 ` blstuart 2010-03-25 21:17 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2010-03-25 20:26 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-25 21:58 ` Tim Newsham 2010-03-25 21:21 ` Patrick Kelly 2010-03-25 22:37 ` Justin Jackson 2010-03-25 22:53 ` erik quanstrom 2010-03-25 22:57 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) 2010-03-26 0:03 ` Anthony Sorace 2010-03-26 2:16 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM/VE7TFX) 2010-03-26 6:43 ` Tim Newsham 2010-03-26 13:54 ` andrey mirtchovski 2010-03-28 23:22 ` Jack Johnson 2010-03-26 0:36 ` Corey Thomasson 2010-03-26 9:19 ` hugo rivera 2010-03-28 23:05 ` Eris Discordia [not found] ` <989B4954D6C952C13793229D@192.168.1.2> 2010-03-28 23:31 ` hiro 2010-03-28 23:41 ` Connor Lane Smith 2010-03-28 23:51 ` hiro
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).