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* [9fans] building a grid at university
@ 2022-09-27 22:33 type9freak
  2022-09-28  7:02 ` sirjofri
  2022-09-28 20:21 ` Brian Hancock
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: type9freak @ 2022-09-27 22:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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i have been learning plan 9 for about a week now through a 9front install on a spare laptop. i’m really falling for it, especially as someone who loves shell and unix. i’m here to get some advisement on what my best options would be for making a plan 9 grid, as a university student. i want to have a server for my documents, ebooks, music, and images, as well as a persistent IRC client and maybe even a mail server. most importantly, i want to be able to access the grid remotely: from my laptop in class for example (same network) and maybe down the line from anywhere, over internet. there are a number of things in the way of that, the first being my dorm room does not have an ethernet outlet. i think mine is the only one on my floor that doesn’t. second, my building loses power frequently, which is not ideal for hosting servers; power aside, it would still lose internet connection. the third problem is less adverse, but the network requires devices to be authenticated to get online. i get around this by authenticating on a dummy computer with a mac address spoofer.i have no idea if i could easily connect to local IP’s on the network, but i doubt it. so that would make it much more difficult/inconvenient to host on campus. also, the school explicitly forbids hosting servers on the school network.
does anyone see a favorable way to set up a plan 9 grid, either on campus or an alternative? the biggest hurdle is definitely getting the grid on the university network where it can be connected to locally, or getting it out of the network and online. also i know the sdf plan 9 bootcamp just ended, and i’m aware of 9gridchan, but i don’t know if they’re really going to be useful for my demands. those two communities seem more oriented towards being an introduction to plan 9 and less towards using it or ‘switching’ to it. plus i don’t want to dump files onto someone else’s drives.
anyways, thank you for your time reading this, if you need me to check x by doing y as the means of finding a solution, i’m happy to do so. 
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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-09-27 22:33 [9fans] building a grid at university type9freak
@ 2022-09-28  7:02 ` sirjofri
  2022-09-28 21:57   ` fig
  2022-09-28 20:21 ` Brian Hancock
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: sirjofri @ 2022-09-28  7:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Hello and welcome,

28.09.2022 00:33:32 type9freak@gmail.com:
> i want to have a server for my documents, ebooks, music, and images, as well as a persistent IRC client and maybe even a mail server.

Think about what you want to do with those files on your server. Do you have an e-reader? A music player? A proper image viewer? Did you want to stream these to other devices? How do you want to do that as most devices don't support 9p?

> most importantly, i want to be able to access the grid remotely:

That's the more challenging part. I recommend starting with a few servers (auth, fs, cpu, maybe even all in one machine) in the cloud, plus one local cpu server with a cache filesystem (cfs) for better latency. I have a similar setup at home, but currently my local server has a full file server, not only a cache.

> from my laptop in class for example (same network) and maybe down the line from anywhere, over internet.

You have to check if your internet allows accessing remote services like that. Some shared providers like universities block certain protocols, ports and IP addresses. Maybe first test with 9p.zone or sdf bootcamp.

> there are a number of things in the way of that, the first being my dorm room does not have an ethernet outlet. i think mine is the only one on my floor that doesn’t. second, my building loses power frequently, which is not ideal for hosting servers; power aside, it would still lose internet connection. the third problem is less adverse, but the network requires devices to be authenticated to get online.

Have your servers in the cloud. You're not a data center. VPS can be actually quite cheap, I pay 2.42 euro per month per machine.

> does anyone see a favorable way to set up a plan 9 grid, either on campus or an alternative? the biggest hurdle is definitely getting the grid on the university network where it can be connected to locally, or getting it out of the network and online.

The probably only way to get something like you really want is to talk to your university and maybe you can do a long term project with a small team of other interested students (plus a prof). Depending on the University you might have luck, but the result is less ... personal. But you could also add your own personal fileserver to that grid easier.

> and i’m aware of 9gridchan

9gridchan is mostly dead, and probably even more since a few months. Long live 9gridchan, in 9p.zone. Both are actually targeted towards users, not our beginners.

Note that on 9p.zone there's an extra service with a public auth service everybody can use for free. You could hook up your own fileserver to use this auth and control who has access to it. For shared projects on a shared system you can use the existing eu grid at 9p.zone (eu.9p.zone).

Disclaimer: I'm part of 9p.zone.

sirjofri

P.S for testing out grid stuff you can also try installing a grid in a virtual machine network.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-09-27 22:33 [9fans] building a grid at university type9freak
  2022-09-28  7:02 ` sirjofri
@ 2022-09-28 20:21 ` Brian Hancock
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Brian Hancock @ 2022-09-28 20:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3039 bytes --]

A simple data grid using the Inferno operating system
Brian Hancock <https://www.emerald.com/insight/search?q=Brian Hancock>

Library Hi Tech <https://www.emerald.com/insight/publication/issn/0737-8831>

ISSN: 0737-8831

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 3:33 PM <type9freak@gmail.com> wrote:

> i have been learning plan 9 for about a week now through a 9front install
> on a spare laptop. i’m really falling for it, especially as someone who
> loves shell and unix. i’m here to get some advisement on what my best
> options would be for making a plan 9 grid, as a university student. i want
> to have a server for my documents, ebooks, music, and images, as well as a
> persistent IRC client and maybe even a mail server. most importantly, i
> want to be able to access the grid remotely: from my laptop in class for
> example (same network) and maybe down the line from anywhere, over
> internet. there are a number of things in the way of that, the first being
> my dorm room does not have an ethernet outlet. i think mine is the only one
> on my floor that doesn’t. second, my building loses power frequently, which
> is not ideal for hosting servers; power aside, it would still lose internet
> connection. the third problem is less adverse, but the network requires
> devices to be authenticated to get online. i get around this by
> authenticating on a dummy computer with a mac address spoofer.i have no
> idea if i could easily connect to local IP’s on the network, but i doubt
> it. so that would make it much more difficult/inconvenient to host on
> campus. also, the school explicitly forbids hosting servers on the school
> network.
> does anyone see a favorable way to set up a plan 9 grid, either on campus
> or an alternative? the biggest hurdle is definitely getting the grid on the
> university network where it can be connected to locally, or getting it out
> of the network and online. also i know the sdf plan 9 bootcamp just ended,
> and i’m aware of 9gridchan, but i don’t know if they’re really going to be
> useful for my demands. those two communities seem more oriented towards
> being an introduction to plan 9 and less towards using it or ‘switching’ to
> it. plus i don’t want to dump files onto someone else’s drives.
> anyways, thank you for your time reading this, if you need me to check x
> by doing y as the means of finding a solution, i’m happy to do so.
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T75d22acfa474b209-Me421f32eaf1db91b4a58e085>
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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-09-28  7:02 ` sirjofri
@ 2022-09-28 21:57   ` fig
  2022-09-28 22:16     ` sirjofri
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: fig @ 2022-09-28 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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> Think about what you want to do with those files on your server.
i'm not going to needlessly elaborate, but i'll say that before this, i was
already using my ebooks, audiobooks, text files and music with the tools
from plan9port.

> I recommend starting with a few servers (auth, fs, cpu, maybe even all in
one machine) in the cloud, plus one local cpu server with a cache
filesystem (cfs) for better latency.
> Have your servers in the cloud. You're not a data center. VPS can be
actually quite cheap, I pay 2.42 euro per month per machine.
i think i have to, yeah. is there anything important to consider when
choosing a VPS provider for plan 9 servers? or do they all play well?
any recommendations are welcome.

> on 9p.zone there's an extra service with a public auth service everybody
can use for free. You could hook up your own fileserver to use this auth
and control who has access to it. For shared projects on a shared system
you can use the existing eu grid at 9p.zone (eu.9p.zone).
this is a good resource to keep in mind. i was not aware of 9p.zone.

another possibility: i could put plan 9 servers on a couple thinkpads
and/or raspberry pis at my parents' house (not far from school) and have
them connect to the 9p.zone auth server or a VPS of mine. the reason i did
not initially list this as an option is because internet at home is pretty
slow, and also i did not want to do any port forwarding at home. but this
arrangement would not require any port forwarding, if i'm not mistaken.

thanks for your reply. much appreciated.

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 12:03 AM sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de>
wrote:

> Hello and welcome,
>
> 28.09.2022 00:33:32 type9freak@gmail.com:
> > i want to have a server for my documents, ebooks, music, and images, as
> well as a persistent IRC client and maybe even a mail server.
>
> Think about what you want to do with those files on your server. Do you
> have an e-reader? A music player? A proper image viewer? Did you want to
> stream these to other devices? How do you want to do that as most devices
> don't support 9p?
>
> > most importantly, i want to be able to access the grid remotely:
>
> That's the more challenging part. I recommend starting with a few servers
> (auth, fs, cpu, maybe even all in one machine) in the cloud, plus one local
> cpu server with a cache filesystem (cfs) for better latency. I have a
> similar setup at home, but currently my local server has a full file
> server, not only a cache.
>
> > from my laptop in class for example (same network) and maybe down the
> line from anywhere, over internet.
>
> You have to check if your internet allows accessing remote services like
> that. Some shared providers like universities block certain protocols,
> ports and IP addresses. Maybe first test with 9p.zone or sdf bootcamp.
>
> > there are a number of things in the way of that, the first being my dorm
> room does not have an ethernet outlet. i think mine is the only one on my
> floor that doesn’t. second, my building loses power frequently, which is
> not ideal for hosting servers; power aside, it would still lose internet
> connection. the third problem is less adverse, but the network requires
> devices to be authenticated to get online.
>
> Have your servers in the cloud. You're not a data center. VPS can be
> actually quite cheap, I pay 2.42 euro per month per machine.
>
> > does anyone see a favorable way to set up a plan 9 grid, either on
> campus or an alternative? the biggest hurdle is definitely getting the grid
> on the university network where it can be connected to locally, or getting
> it out of the network and online.
>
> The probably only way to get something like you really want is to talk to
> your university and maybe you can do a long term project with a small team
> of other interested students (plus a prof). Depending on the University you
> might have luck, but the result is less ... personal. But you could also
> add your own personal fileserver to that grid easier.
>
> > and i’m aware of 9gridchan
> 
> 9gridchan is mostly dead, and probably even more since a few months. Long
> live 9gridchan, in 9p.zone. Both are actually targeted towards users, not
> our beginners.
> 
> Note that on 9p.zone there's an extra service with a public auth service
> everybody can use for free. You could hook up your own fileserver to use
> this auth and control who has access to it. For shared projects on a shared
> system you can use the existing eu grid at 9p.zone (eu.9p.zone).
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm part of 9p.zone.
> 
> sirjofri
> 
> P.S for testing out grid stuff you can also try installing a grid in a
> virtual machine network.

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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-09-28 21:57   ` fig
@ 2022-09-28 22:16     ` sirjofri
  2022-09-30  1:28       ` fig
                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: sirjofri @ 2022-09-28 22:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


28.09.2022 23:58:23 fig <type9freak@gmail.com>:

>> Think about what you want to do with those files on your server. 
> i'm not going to needlessly elaborate, but i'll say that before this, i was already using my ebooks, audiobooks, text files and music with the tools from plan9port.

Great 😃. I have no more linux left on any machine, so I never experienced this.

>> I recommend starting with a few servers (auth, fs, cpu, maybe even all in one machine) in the cloud, plus one local cpu server with a cache filesystem (cfs) for better latency. 
>> Have your servers in the cloud. You're not a data center. VPS can be actually quite cheap, I pay 2.42 euro per month per machine.
> i think i have to, yeah. is there anything important to consider when choosing a VPS provider for plan 9 servers? or do they all play well?
> any recommendations are welcome.

Many use vultr, I use netcup. KVM technology mostly works well, hyper-v doesn't work at all, afaik.

> another possibility: i could put plan 9 servers on a couple thinkpads and/or raspberry pis at my parents' house (not far from school) and have them connect to the 9p.zone auth server or a VPS of mine. the reason i did not initially list this as an option is because internet at home is pretty slow, and also i did not want to do any port forwarding at home. but this arrangement would not require any port forwarding, if i'm not mistaken.

Since you want to access your server, you still need some port forwarding.

What you can do is, have one single VPS somewhere and make your local server listen via the /net of that VPS. Basically you import the /net of the VPS to your machine and then start listening.

Slowness is not necessarily a big factor, depending on what you do. I've heard stories of Plan 9 being faster on ISDN than DSL because ISDN is targeted towards latency and DSL towards bandwidth, which makes sense, but I have no personal experience with this.

I was able to write my bachelor thesis via DSL with our famous German internet. My file+cpu server was behind a personal DSL provider and my local machine, too. I noticed the latency, but it was fine for my task. I imported the filesystem to my client machine, did my editing there without latency (except for saving), then built the pdf using rcpu for faster access. It could've been faster, but it was fine.

Regarding inferno: well yeah, go for it if you want. It's different and people like it or not. I personally rarely use it.

sirjofri

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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-09-28 22:16     ` sirjofri
@ 2022-09-30  1:28       ` fig
  2022-09-30  2:59         ` ori
  2022-09-30  6:30         ` sirjofri
  2022-09-30 10:42       ` Glenn Holmer via 9fans
  2022-10-01  5:42       ` denzuko
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: fig @ 2022-09-30  1:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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> What you can do is, have one single VPS somewhere and make your local
server listen via the /net of that VPS. Basically you import the /net of
the VPS to your machine and then start listening

that’s really all it takes, isn’t it? that’s so nice. to think i’m
impressed with plan 9 now, just the beginning…
would i configure the through drawterm, or through mounting the graphics,
/dev/screen etc. i ask because configuring a linux VPS is extremely simple
as the OS is entirely functional through just CLI. but plan 9 is not, and i
don’t know how this is addressed when using a VPS. even the install process
is graphical. is kvm necessary?
thank you for your correspondance. i’m obviously very nooby as far as the
networking goes, but i’m reading cat-v, FQA and 9p wiki every day. i’ve
already written an rss feed aggregator in rc, which was fun and easy. i’m
having a bit of trouble getting irc and usenet to ‘work’ on the school
network, and i’m still a little bewildered by email on plan 9, but i’ll get
there. thanks again.

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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-09-30  1:28       ` fig
@ 2022-09-30  2:59         ` ori
  2022-09-30  6:30         ` sirjofri
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2022-09-30  2:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Quoth fig <type9freak@gmail.com>:
> but plan 9 is not, and i
> don’t know how this is addressed when using a VPS. even the install process
> is graphical. is kvm necessary?

There are a few options.

1) Many hosts like Vultr or Ramnode provide graphical VNC consoles.

2) Graphics aren't necessary; inst/start works just fine from a serial
   cnnsole or text; it's just a bit painful to configure. I'm not sure
   which providers only give you a a text console.

3) if your host provides neither, then you maybe can install and configure
   an image locally, and upload it. This is how you'd do it on GCP.

> i’m having a bit of trouble getting irc and usenet to ‘work’ on the school
> network,

It's probably blocked; try just connecting:

        % telnet tcp!irc.oftc.net!6667

you should rapidly see something like:

        connected to tcp!irc.oftc.net!6667 on /net/tcp/17
        :larich.oftc.net NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname...
        :larich.oftc.net NOTICE AUTH :*** Checking Ident
        :larich.oftc.net NOTICE AUTH :*** Found your hostname

> and i’m still a little bewildered by email on plan 9, but i’ll get
> there. thanks again.

It's a bit bewildering; I wrote up a summary of my understanding a while
ago:

        http://wiki.9front.org/upas-theory

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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-09-30  1:28       ` fig
  2022-09-30  2:59         ` ori
@ 2022-09-30  6:30         ` sirjofri
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: sirjofri @ 2022-09-30  6:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


30.09.2022 03:29:04 fig <type9freak@gmail.com>:
> would i configure the through drawterm, or through mounting the graphics, /dev/screen etc. i ask because configuring a linux VPS is extremely simple as the OS is entirely functional through just CLI.

For this system to work, your VPS also needs to be plan 9 based, because you need the /net filesystem. Theoretically you can replicate that filesystem on a Linux machine, but the software to do that doesn't exist natively (might be possible via inferno, but I won't recommend it, especially plan 9 works quite reliably on a VPS).

> is kvm necessary?

KVM is just what I know works most reliably. Most VPS providers we have good experience with use kvm and also qemu with kvm is battle-tested. Other technologies might work too.

> thank you for your correspondance. i’m obviously very nooby as far as the networking goes, but i’m reading cat-v, FQA and 9p wiki every day.

Thing with plan 9 is, reading and learning the theory is great and necessary, especially for preparing everything. At some point you have to use it, ideally as much as possible.

> i’ve already written an rss feed aggregator in rc, which was fun and easy.

9fs net!sirjofri.de!333 /n/news
bind -a /n/news/<channel> /lib/news
news

(This is what I provide using rssfill, if you want to try it. Source is online).

> i’m having a bit of trouble getting irc and usenet to ‘work’ on the school network

I got usenet working inside acme using eternalseptember, but it felt quite dead. I had much better experience in fidonet 5 years ago (and I'd love to join, but I don't have software for 9 so I could only telnet).

> and i’m still a little bewildered by email on plan 9, but i’ll get there. thanks again. 

No.

(To stay in humor.) Mail works, server is reliable. I also wrote a few blog posts about how I configured it. Good luck.

sirjofri

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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-09-28 22:16     ` sirjofri
  2022-09-30  1:28       ` fig
@ 2022-09-30 10:42       ` Glenn Holmer via 9fans
  2022-09-30 13:09         ` sirjofri
  2022-10-01  5:42       ` denzuko
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Glenn Holmer via 9fans @ 2022-09-30 10:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 714 bytes --]

-------- Original Message --------
On Sep 28, 2022, 17:17, sirjofri < sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de> wrote:
What you can do is, have one single VPS somewhere and make your local server listen via the /net of that VPS. Basically you import the /net of the VPS to your machine and then start listening.

This has always seemed miraculous to me. Can you give an example of the commands?

--
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-09-30 10:42       ` Glenn Holmer via 9fans
@ 2022-09-30 13:09         ` sirjofri
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: sirjofri @ 2022-09-30 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


30.09.2022 12:42:53 Glenn Holmer via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:

> This has always seemed miraculous to me. Can you give an example of the commands?

On 9front:

rimport myserver /net

Communication basically always goes through the network interface present in /net (or /net.alt, depending on the software and configuration), so all network listeners you run after importing the /net of the server will just start listening on the network interface of the server. That's the power of namespaces for you.

Iirc with listen(8) you can set which network directory you want to listen on, so you can (for example) import the server /net to your local /net.alt and then start listening on /net.alt.

Btw this is also the easiest way to make a VPN-like bridge: import /net of the server, then start webfs for browsing, then all traffic this webfs process produces will be tunneled through the (tls-encrypted) 9p connection to the server.

sirjofri

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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-09-28 22:16     ` sirjofri
  2022-09-30  1:28       ` fig
  2022-09-30 10:42       ` Glenn Holmer via 9fans
@ 2022-10-01  5:42       ` denzuko
  2022-10-01  6:32         ` sirjofri
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: denzuko @ 2022-10-01  5:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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On Wednesday, September 28, 2022, at 5:16 PM, sirjofri wrote:
> Many use vultr, I use netcup. KVM technology mostly works well, hyper-v doesn't work at all, afaik.
Incorrect, Hyper-v works well with 9front if one doesn't care about audio or usb pass through. I'm using it to run 9front, openbsd, and vyos on my laptop while developing a few utils for the community and grid I'm building.
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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-10-01  5:42       ` denzuko
@ 2022-10-01  6:32         ` sirjofri
  2022-10-01  6:44           ` denzuko
  2022-10-01  6:44           ` denzuko
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: sirjofri @ 2022-10-01  6:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Nice, great to know. Any experience with azure then? Would love to try it out.

sirjofri

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-10-01  6:32         ` sirjofri
@ 2022-10-01  6:44           ` denzuko
  2022-10-01  6:44           ` denzuko
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: denzuko @ 2022-10-01  6:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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On Saturday, October 01, 2022, at 1:32 AM, sirjofri wrote:
> Any experience with azure then?
Not as of yet. Did see a few guys try with both Azure and GCP. But that does remind me, I should update the virtual machine page on 9p's wiki to detail how to get hyper-v to work. I'll try to get that up before the start of the week.
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* Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
  2022-10-01  6:32         ` sirjofri
  2022-10-01  6:44           ` denzuko
@ 2022-10-01  6:44           ` denzuko
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: denzuko @ 2022-10-01  6:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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I'll keep you posted about azure too.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-10-01  6:44 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-09-27 22:33 [9fans] building a grid at university type9freak
2022-09-28  7:02 ` sirjofri
2022-09-28 21:57   ` fig
2022-09-28 22:16     ` sirjofri
2022-09-30  1:28       ` fig
2022-09-30  2:59         ` ori
2022-09-30  6:30         ` sirjofri
2022-09-30 10:42       ` Glenn Holmer via 9fans
2022-09-30 13:09         ` sirjofri
2022-10-01  5:42       ` denzuko
2022-10-01  6:32         ` sirjofri
2022-10-01  6:44           ` denzuko
2022-10-01  6:44           ` denzuko
2022-09-28 20:21 ` Brian Hancock

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