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From: geoff@collyer.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] gcc on plan9
Date: Wed,  7 Jun 2006 17:53:41 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4ef97ffa3f0bbb8004fb870726536e2c@collyer.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20060608015831.GA3517@ionkov.net>

The argument `if you don't like it, don't use it', is how PL/I, C++,
gcc and Linux got to be huge.  The fallacy in the argument is that
adding complexity and bulk to anything makes it harder to comprehend
and slower to use (not to mention less elegant).  Manuals get thicker,
it's harder to find what you want and sometimes you have to learn
about things just to avoid them successfully.  There get to be
unintended interactions between the parts.  In software, layers (thus
slowness and bulk) tend to accrete.  Then there are hacks (e.g.,
shared libraries) to try to ameliorate the bloat.

Is Linux really any better for having Gnome *and* KDE, both layered on
top of X libraries, and a raft of duelling applications written for
each?  It reminds me of the Unix Window System Wars of the 1980's,
when people thought (or pretended to) that it *really mattered* if
your windows had drop shadows or 3D effects on the corners.



  reply	other threads:[~2006-06-08  0:53 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 243+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2006-06-07 17:58 Corey
2006-06-07 18:24 ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-07 18:50   ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-07 18:55     ` William Josephson
2006-06-07 20:12       ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-07 20:20         ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-07 20:42           ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-07 20:44         ` William Josephson
2006-06-07 21:00           ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-07 19:05     ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-07 20:13       ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-07 20:48         ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-07 21:04           ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-08  6:42             ` Roman Shaposhnik
2006-06-08  7:00               ` Iruatã Souza (muzgo)
2006-06-07 19:48   ` Corey
2006-06-07 20:16     ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-07 20:26       ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-07 20:43         ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-08  5:49           ` lucio
2006-06-07 18:57 ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2006-06-07 19:55   ` Corey
2006-06-07 20:46     ` rog
2006-06-07 21:07       ` Corey
2006-06-07 21:16         ` Christoph Lohmann
2006-06-07 21:25           ` Rodolfo (kix)
2006-06-07 21:50             ` Corey
2006-06-07 21:54               ` David Leimbach
2006-06-07 21:56               ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-07 22:06               ` Lluís Batlle i Rossell
2006-06-07 22:16                 ` David Leimbach
2006-06-07 22:31                   ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2006-06-07 22:33                     ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-08  9:44                       ` Victor Nazarov
2006-06-09 21:13                   ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-08  1:28                 ` quanstro
2006-06-09 13:12                   ` Lluís Batlle
2006-06-09 13:21                     ` quanstro
2006-06-09 13:47                       ` Lluís Batlle
2006-06-07 23:04               ` geoff
2006-06-07 23:10                 ` Steve Simon
2006-06-08  0:22                   ` Bakul Shah
2006-06-08  0:27                   ` geoff
2006-06-08  3:31                   ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-08 15:04                     ` David Leimbach
2006-06-08 15:20                       ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-07 23:15                 ` andrey mirtchovski
2006-06-08  0:17                   ` geoff
2006-06-09 21:15                   ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-09 21:26                     ` andrey mirtchovski
2006-06-09 21:27                       ` andrey mirtchovski
2006-06-09 21:34                       ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-09 21:38                         ` andrey mirtchovski
2006-06-09 21:44                           ` andrey mirtchovski
2006-06-10  6:57                         ` "Nils O. Selåsdal"
2006-06-08  1:58                 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-08  0:53                   ` geoff [this message]
2006-06-08  1:07                     ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-08  1:15                       ` quanstro
2006-06-08 15:02                         ` David Leimbach
2006-06-09  4:04                           ` quanstro
2006-06-08  1:22                       ` geoff
2006-06-08  1:25                         ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-09 21:21                           ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-09 21:27                             ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-08 14:59                         ` David Leimbach
2006-06-09  4:05                           ` quanstro
2006-06-08  1:39                       ` [9fans] quantity vs. quality Lyndon Nerenberg
2006-06-08  3:05                         ` Dan Cross
2006-06-08  3:44                           ` Joel Salomon
2006-06-08  7:03                             ` Roman Shaposhnik
2006-06-09 22:03                           ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-09 22:44                             ` David Leimbach
2006-06-09 22:46                               ` quanstro
2006-06-09 22:51                               ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-09 22:55                                 ` quanstro
2006-06-09 23:19                                   ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-09 23:29                                     ` quanstro
2006-06-10  1:57                                       ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-09 23:51                                         ` quanstro
2006-06-10  0:10                                           ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-10  2:31                                             ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-10  0:45                                               ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-10  3:01                                                 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-10  0:52                                                   ` quanstro
2006-06-10  1:04                                                   ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-10 23:13                                                 ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-11  0:44                                                   ` quanstro
2006-06-11  5:08                                                     ` lucio
2006-06-11 10:09                                                       ` quanstro
2006-06-11 12:00                                                         ` lucio
2006-06-11 22:59                                                           ` quanstro
2006-06-11 23:26                                                           ` geoff
2006-06-12  3:45                                                             ` Paul Lalonde
2006-06-12 20:16                                                               ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-12 20:23                                                                 ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-12 20:56                                                                   ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-12 21:09                                                                     ` Victor Nazarov
2006-06-13  0:05                                                                     ` Roman Shaposhnik
2006-06-12 21:15                                                                 ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2006-06-13 12:08                                                                   ` rog
2006-06-13 16:34                                                                     ` Skip Tavakkolian
2006-06-13 21:35                                                                       ` "Nils O. Selåsdal"
2006-06-14 22:09                                                                     ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-15 15:46                                                                       ` Victor Nazarov
2006-06-11  5:42                                                   ` Russ Cox
2006-06-11 10:08                                                     ` quanstro
2006-06-12  1:03                                                   ` Roman Shaposhnik
2006-06-10 23:05                                               ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-11  0:00                                                 ` quanstro
2006-06-10  0:24                                           ` andrey mirtchovski
2006-06-10  0:36                                             ` quanstro
2006-06-10  2:27                                           ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-10  0:23                                             ` quanstro
2006-06-10  0:41                                               ` Paul Lalonde
2006-06-10  0:59                                                 ` quanstro
2006-06-10  1:15                                                   ` Paul Lalonde
2006-06-10  5:19                                                     ` Bruce Ellis
2006-06-10  2:51                                               ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-10  0:45                                                 ` quanstro
2006-06-10  3:10                                                   ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-10  0:53                                                     ` quanstro
2006-06-10 23:06                                               ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-10 23:15                                                 ` geoff
2006-06-11  2:58                                                 ` jmk
2006-06-10 23:04                                           ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-11  0:05                                             ` quanstro
2006-06-10 23:03                                       ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-09 23:25                                 ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-09 23:38                                   ` David Leimbach
2006-06-09 23:45                                     ` andrey mirtchovski
2006-06-09 23:46                                     ` Paul Lalonde
2006-06-10 23:03                                       ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-10 23:02                                     ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-11  0:12                                       ` quanstro
2006-06-11  2:20                                         ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-11 22:31                                       ` David Leimbach
2006-06-10  0:28                               ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-09 21:29                         ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-09 21:34                           ` andrey mirtchovski
2006-06-08  1:49                   ` [9fans] gcc on plan9 Ignacio Torres Masdeu
2006-06-08 14:10                 ` David Leimbach
2006-06-09  4:09                   ` quanstro
2006-06-09  5:25                     ` David Leimbach
2006-06-07 22:39           ` Corey
2006-06-07 22:49             ` Paul Lalonde
2006-06-07 23:17               ` Corey
2006-06-07 23:37                 ` Paul Lalonde
2006-06-08  0:50                   ` quanstro
2006-06-08  1:16                     ` John Barham
2006-06-08 14:51                     ` David Leimbach
2006-06-09  4:49                       ` ems
2006-06-09 12:07                       ` quanstro
2006-06-09 19:17                       ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-09 21:27                         ` Bakul Shah
2006-06-09 21:33                           ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2006-06-09 21:39                             ` quanstro
2006-06-09 21:56                               ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2006-06-09 22:01                                 ` quanstro
2006-06-09 22:17                                   ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2006-06-09 22:35                                     ` quanstro
2006-06-09 22:22                             ` Bakul Shah
2006-06-09 22:30                               ` quanstro
2006-06-09 23:22                                 ` Bakul Shah
2006-06-10 13:51                                 ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2006-06-10 23:21                                   ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-11  0:07                                     ` LiteStar numnums
2006-06-10  0:00                               ` Harri Haataja
2006-06-10  0:03                                 ` Bruce Ellis
2006-06-10  1:00                               ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-10  4:37                                 ` Iruatã Souza (muzgo)
2006-06-12  0:35                                   ` Roman Shaposhnik
2006-06-09 21:43                           ` quanstro
2006-06-10 12:43                           ` rog
2006-06-07 22:56             ` Christoph Lohmann
2006-06-07 23:08               ` Dan Cross
2006-06-07 23:32                 ` Federico G. Benavento
2006-06-07 23:48                   ` Dan Cross
2006-06-08  0:32               ` Corey
2006-06-08  1:04                 ` jmk
2006-06-08  3:35                   ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-08  3:51                     ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-08  4:07                       ` Roman Shaposhnik
2006-06-08  5:19                         ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-08  6:07                           ` Federico G. Benavento
2006-06-08 17:45                           ` Micah Stetson
2006-06-08 18:54                             ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-08 18:55                             ` Iruatã Souza (muzgo)
2006-06-08 18:56                               ` andrey mirtchovski
2006-06-08 19:01                                 ` Iruatã Souza (muzgo)
2006-06-09 19:56                           ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-09 22:19                             ` quanstro
2006-06-09 23:19                               ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-08  4:11                       ` Paul Lalonde
2006-06-08  5:25                       ` ems
2006-06-08  5:43                         ` Simon Williams
2006-06-08  6:09                           ` Bruce Ellis
2006-07-16 15:17                         ` ASCII Glenda (was Re: [9fans] gcc on plan9) csant
2006-07-16 22:17                           ` e.c.sharpe
2006-07-16 22:37                             ` Jack Johnson
2006-07-17  8:35                               ` Rodolfo (kix)
2006-06-08  1:06                 ` [9fans] gcc on plan9 geoff
2006-06-08  1:21                   ` quanstro
2006-06-08 10:15                   ` Victor Nazarov
2006-06-08  9:40             ` Lluís Batlle
2006-06-08 15:55               ` Corey
2006-06-08 22:48                 ` Fred Wade
2006-06-08 23:08     ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-08 23:51       ` Corey
2006-06-07 20:46 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-07 19:07   ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-07 19:17     ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-07 19:26       ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-07 19:35         ` Brantley Coile
2006-06-07 20:15           ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-07 20:32             ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-07 19:47         ` Latchesar Ionkov
2006-06-07 20:00           ` Corey
2006-06-07 20:13           ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-07 20:40             ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-08  6:49               ` Roman Shaposhnik
2006-06-07 21:21       ` Christoph Lohmann
2006-06-07 21:49         ` Ronald G Minnich
2006-06-07 22:50           ` Dan Cross
2006-06-08  7:08 cej
2006-06-08  9:18 ` quanstro
2006-06-08 11:58   ` rog
2006-06-09  4:20     ` quanstro
2006-06-08 17:20 ` Corey
2006-06-09  4:00   ` quanstro
2006-06-09 12:40     ` Corey
2006-06-09 13:15       ` quanstro
2006-06-09 15:10         ` Corey
2006-06-09 15:27           ` C H Forsyth
2006-06-09 15:39             ` David Leimbach
2006-06-09 15:37           ` quanstro
2006-06-09 14:52       ` lucio
2006-06-09 18:42         ` quanstro
2006-06-09 21:12           ` David Leimbach
2006-06-10  5:28           ` lucio
2006-06-10  1:36       ` Roman Shaposhnick
2006-06-10 16:32         ` David Leimbach
2006-06-08  7:24 cej

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