From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Matt Message-ID: <52141477614.20010815112921@proweb.co.uk> To: Eric de Redelijkheid <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface In-Reply-To: <3B793F22.5080707@xs4all.nl> References: <20010814122734.A24734@cackle.proxima.alt.za>, <3B793F22.5080707@xs4all.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:29:21 +0100 Topicbox-Message-UUID: dcc6e194-eac9-11e9-9e20-41e7f4b1d025 EdR> This procedure is absurd. What is wrong with a command like ' shutdown'. EdR> Why not a button for a system shutdown? Or a whole sentence: ' please, EdR> shutdown the system for power down'. What is the excuse for making a EdR> simple task difficult to execute? because plan9 is not really a single user system. The local disk system is added in for local storage. If you were using the system as envisaged you would be booting from the network so you could happily just switch your terminal off. if you liek you can write a script called shutdown that executes disk/kfscmd halt and then echos "you can now switch the computer off Eric if you so desire". it's not much different from other systems only the earliest computers with their OS in rom let you just switch off without potential damage to the filesystem. heck in Linux you have to log in as the superuser, type the command, wait a while for it to sync and then switch off. EdR> What is a snarf? Should an ordinairy user like me concern myself with EdR> words I can't find in the dictionary You can find it in the manual for the windowing system, or the papers about plan9. "rtfm" I believe is the usual mantra EdR> The fact that it is made by the same people as EdR> UNIX tells you nothing about interface design. The existence the old EdR> style man pages are an indication. I think it does to those who know unix. It suggests that text manipulation will probably control everything. It suggests "everything is a file". and plenty of things besides. old style man pages work for me EdR>I refuse to work with emacs. It sounds like you refuse to work at all. EdR> A user interface is more then just the GUI. in fact it's not even a gui. EdR> Functions of the computer and programs should, EdR> in my opinion, be instinctively understood by the EdR> user. Well we all wish that but it really isn't possible. Our interface understanding is a culmination of all we have learned from other interfaces. If your understanding doesn't help you move from one environment to another seemlessly and you are too uncomfortable in your new place then maybe the move wasn't for you. EdR> This is not the case with this GUI as a whole, programs like acme EdR> and sam or the man pages. (Please, can't we get rid of those?) feel free to convert the man pages to a format you prefer EdR> Take the GUI for instance.... it takes maybe 15 minutes to learn, it's a price worth paying EdR> Without a good and simple easy to use user interface, plan 9 will never EdR> be adopted. it already has one Is adoption really the goal of someone who writes software esp. an OS? Aside from the fact that plan9 has been adopted part of the reason it remains in existence at all is because it solves the problems of it's authors. EdR> And the whole effort would have been a pointless exercise. I think that's pretty insulting. plan9 is so much more than a bitmap terminal EdR> As far as a user is concerned the entire computer is the user interface. You are considering a subset of all users and the naive one's at that. What is it you want from plan9? If it's whizzy spreadsheets and watching DVD's then I think you have found the wrong place. The world of computing is a big place. Fitting every OS into *your* view would mean plan9's paradigm would be ignored. EdR> Only technicly skilled people (those that we call nerds) can appriciate EdR> what is under the hood. As others on the list may tell you, plan9 is used by plenty of "naive" users. And what if plan9 was an OS just for technically skilled people? Do technically skilled people not have a right to a product that caters for their needs too? Personally I don't want an interface that has dancing paperclips to tell me how to write a letter but my mum likes it. Things don't always have to be simple to use in the first 5 minutes. I placed my trust in the people who wrote plan9 and the people here who write about it and they have not let me down. I invested plenty of time getting seemingly nowhere but now every precious moment of that time has been rewarded. Moreover, it has presented me with a new view on computing. I have learned so much more than "how to use plan9". To instantly complain about what you find is understandable and in almost every field of existence complaining says more about you than it does about the target of your complaint. In the old days one would swear at the manual switch the whole thing off and maybe come back tomorrow or maybe just leave it forever. These days one writes an email of complaint first :) I sincerely wish you well on your computing journey. Matt