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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="steve@quintile.net"; helo=mx2.mythic-beasts.com; client-ip=46.235.227.24 Received: from mx2.mythic-beasts.com (mx2.mythic-beasts.com [46.235.227.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 29 May 2024 02:40:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from steve@quintile.net) Received: by mailhub-hex-d.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1sCCzA-003aKS-ID for 9fans@9fans.net; Wed, 29 May 2024 07:40:32 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Steve Simon Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [9fans] Throwing in the Towel Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 07:40:19 +0100 Message-Id: <5B3282E2-DB89-4C78-8901-B2832E1EBB64@quintile.net> References: <6CF300A17E86168075C422519C7A1A24@eigenstate.org> In-Reply-To: <6CF300A17E86168075C422519C7A1A24@eigenstate.org> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (20H343) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 5d9ad188-1d86-11ef-8665-88a6556c0091 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UMmNhNjc0ODZjN2ExM2E3Ny1NOGJmZTIzYjA1ZGU3Yzg0NTAxNTcw?= =?UTF-8?B?MTFjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M8bfe23b05de7c8450157011c:1:iaj4zXysNU0Nt7HUgd5wOWlCyL0QFDywrAcihqSo-8E i can only speak from experience, but i have had fossil and venti running = on a single ssd (on a radpberry pi) for 5 years now - no rotating discs lef= t at home. i have mtime changes and ephemeral snapshots turned off to reduce the updat= e rate. i chose a sandisk card, and take backups just in case=E2=80=A6 so far so good. -Steve > On 29 May 2024, at 4:39 am, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFFinally,. SSDs just die over time. Especially if they are > not powered on and refreshing. JEDEC specs say that they > should retain data for 1 year unplugged when stored at 30 > degrees celsius, assuming the internet isn't lying to me. >=20 > Keep backups. >=20 > Quoth Dave Eckhardt : >>> For the napkin calculation: On disk, the IEntry is 38Bytes. Alas, >>> writes occur always in (the ssd internal) blocksize. So, essentially >>> (assuming 4096 byte blocksize, which is quite optimistic), we have >>> a write efficiency of less than 1 percent. >>=20 >> While I see how such a model can predict disaster, I don't think that >> model matches how FTLs work, because it can't. >>=20 >> Many file systems (FAT, ext2/3/4) write the same logical block over >> and over and over and over and over. I think the default interval >> for ext4 to synch the superblock and the journal is five seconds, >> which if true is more than 15,000 times every *day* for a busy >> file system (and I think lots of Linux systems are busy in that >> sense). >>=20 >>> A good firmware in the ssd could avoid needing a new block for the >>> write, if all bits are changed in teh same direction by the new >>> data. >>=20 >> Again, I believe this model predicts that no regular Linux file >> system can be used on any SSD, thus I believe this model is not >> accurate. >>=20 >> To quote Wikipedia: >>=20 >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory_controller >>=20 >>> The mapping units of an FTL can differ so that LBAs are mapped >>> block-, page- or even sub-page-based. Depending on the usage >>> pattern, a finer mapping granularity can significantly reduce >>> the flash wear out and maximize the endurance of a flash based >>> storage media. >>=20 >> Also, I feel as if this point is several assumption layers deep. >> I think one user reported an unknown number of failures in two >> sets of SSDs of unknown brand and model. I don't think we know >> that it was venti SSDs that went bad as opposed to fossil SSDs, >> let alone knowing it was index SSDs for venti. >>=20 >>> It seems, venti in its current form is a ssd killer, if they >>> are used for the isects. >>=20 >> I don't think this claim is yet supported well. >>=20 >> Dave Eckhardt ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T2ca67486c7a13a77-M8bfe2= 3b05de7c8450157011c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription