Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[gdiaz]

Hola,

Reading 9fans mail list archives you will notice C++ and the "object oriented model" is not much appreciated, there are a lot of references (including great fortunes entries) about this topic.

Search for the discussions, i think there has been other attemps to build a c++ environment, (Steve got cfront working, take a look at the contrib software section of the wiki)

there is people who will love to have a c++ environment, but the preferred way is the plan9 one, which implies no c++.


>So modern operation system with out C++ support is something...unusual
>(i don't know right word in english, that describe what i want to say
>:D)?
>

probably you could say plan9 is not "typical" in this aspect.

slds.

gabi

Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[Filipp Andronov]

> Reading 9fans mail list archives you will notice C++ and the "object oriented model" is not > much appreciated, there are a lot of references (including great fortunes entries) about this > topic.
Yeah, i have notice that, but from my point of view, there are very
many software where object oriented model is perfect way. GUI toolkit
for example, or file system. I didn't see Plan9 file systems sources
yet, but linux VFS object oriented and some proprietary database vfs,
that i have seen are also object oriented. In fact all this stuff was
written in C, where you have pointers to functions in structures, but
it would be much simple to develop it with full OO support.

> Search for the discussions, i think there has been other attemps to build a c++
> environment, (Steve got cfront working, take a look at the contrib software section of the
> wiki)
I does not seen it yet, but cfront is not "modern C++" compiler as far
as i know. So i think that many software that was written with full
C++ features will no work with cfront compiler. Of course i don't know
for sure, and i will explore this later (as far as ьн Plan9 will fly
:D)

> there is people who will love to have a c++ environment, but the preferred way is the plan9 > one, which implies no c++.
Hmm, i think that c++ have right for live in Plan9, just because it
will be very hard to port some soft without it. Of course it is
possible in theory redevelop all modern software stack from
scratch...but in practice it is not something that people could do )

> probably you could say plan9 is not "typical" in this aspect.
I mean that when you get some operation system and then you are notice
that it has no C++  (or even worse, C) environment the first filing is
shock :))

To say the truth, when i've heard about Plan9 at first time, i have
expect meetings with GCC and it was realy shock for me to see new C
compile and no C++ support.
Now i'm understand that it was stupid, but first feeling...No IDE for
development, no C++ support, no  GCC environment, no autotools...It is
not bad at all, but it was suddenly :)


2008/2/4, gdiaz@9grid.es <gdiaz@9grid.es>:
> Hola,
>
> Reading 9fans mail list archives you will notice C++ and the "object oriented model" is not much appreciated, there are a lot of references (including great fortunes entries) about this topic.
>
> Search for the discussions, i think there has been other attemps to build a c++ environment, (Steve got cfront working, take a look at the contrib software section of the wiki)
>
> there is people who will love to have a c++ environment, but the preferred way is the plan9 one, which implies no c++.
>
>
> >So modern operation system with out C++ support is something...unusual
> >(i don't know right word in english, that describe what i want to say
> >:D)?
> >
>
> probably you could say plan9 is not "typical" in this aspect.
>
> slds.
>
> gabi
>

Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[Uriel]

2008/2/4 Filipp Andronov <filipp.andronov@gmail.com>:
> > Reading 9fans mail list archives you will notice C++ and the "object oriented model" is not > much appreciated, there are a lot of references (including great fortunes entries) about this > topic.
> Yeah, i have notice that, but from my point of view, there are very
> many software where object oriented model is perfect way. GUI toolkit
> for example, or file system. I didn't see Plan9 file systems sources
> yet, but linux VFS object oriented and some proprietary database vfs,
> that i have seen are also object oriented. In fact all this stuff was
> written in C, where you have pointers to functions in structures, but
> it would be much simple to develop it with full OO support.

If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them...


> > probably you could say plan9 is not "typical" in this aspect.
> I mean that when you get some operation system and then you are notice
> that it has no C++  (or even worse, C) environment the first filing is
> shock :))

Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans
archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a
billion times before.


> To say the truth, when i've heard about Plan9 at first time, i have
> expect meetings with GCC and it was realy shock for me to see new C
> compile and no C++ support.
> Now i'm understand that it was stupid, but first feeling...No IDE for
> development, no C++ support, no  GCC environment, no autotools...It is
> not bad at all, but it was suddenly :)

Some 20 years 'suddenly'...

uriel

Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[Eris Discordia]

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:01:49 -0000, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them...
>
> Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans
> archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a
> billion times before.
>
> Some 20 years 'suddenly'...
>
> uriel

I wonder if you are bitter or something about Plan 9, or the people who
are trying to learn about it. Because you seem to be trying your best to
deter them. What is an "old path" to you, is "the new way" to us, the
hobbyists among us particularly, and we need some incentive, some
supportive character perhaps, to encourage us along the way.

The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that they
ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever animosity
towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind through the years,
should not have anything to do with their need/want to learn about Plan 9.
They do "not" need your smart-alecky quoting of Rob Pike. What they need
is some guidance in their transition, regardless of their purpose or
previous experiences. If you are not kind enough to help, you can at least
stand by while others do that.

The above is not "ad hominem," by the way. I do not mean it to be so, in
the least. I am only trying to point out my not-so-positive impression of
your post.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[Anant Narayanan]

> The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
> development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that
> they ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever
> animosity towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind
> through the years, should not have anything to do with their need/
> want to learn about Plan 9. They do "not" need your smart-alecky
> quoting of Rob Pike. What they need is some guidance in their
> transition, regardless of their purpose or previous experiences. If
> you are not kind enough to help, you can at least stand by while
> others do that.

It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning
GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before -
rekindling the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they
have.

Cheers,
Anant

Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[Eris Discordia]

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:59:41 -0000, Anant Narayanan <anant@kix.in> wrote:

> It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning
> GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before - rekindling
> the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they have.
>
> Cheers,
> Anant

You are in the right, or rather you would have been in the right were the
original post about the "aesthetical" aspects of the GNU project and/or
C++, or whether the GNU philosophy is sound. However, Filipp Andronov
asked about the development options available on Plan 9, how they compared
to what she/he has already seen, and whether there were equivalents to
lighten his burden of porting something to Plan 9. A perfectly OK
question, that can, and even should, be asked every once in a while.

What she/he got from Uriel was this:

GNU is bad...

a. ... because it is not Plan 9.
b. ... because I think so.
c. ... because it has loyal followers.
d. ... because it created autoconf.
e. ... because it is Not UNIX.
f. ... because it has popularized a certain toolchain.
g. ... because it does not measure up to Bell Labs in some respect.

Now, these may be valid or not, but they are certainly irrelevant. And
Filipp Andronov said that:

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 08:44:57 -0000, Filipp Andronov
<filipp.andronov@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hmmm, my question was not about new ideological war "GNU vs Plan9".

Other people posted much better, and more helpful, responses, cf.,

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 09:46:20 -0000, <kokamoto@hera.eonet.ne.jp> wrote:

> C++ has not been included in Plan 9 since the third edition, but the
> source code is available, and Steve Simon has made some updates.
> Once you have abaco the way I said to get it, you also have Federico
> Benavento's contrib system. With it, all you need is
> 	contrib/install steve/cfront
> Otherwise, get contrib with
> 	/n/sources/contrib/fgb/root/rc/bin/contrib/install fgb/contrib
> and then do the above. Then, to compile a C++ program:
> 	c++/8c x.C # considering .C is the C++ extension
> 	c++/8l -o x x.8
> The one thing: don't use
> 	#include <iostream>
> 	using namespace std;
> You will need
> 	#include <iostream.h>
> which does that for you.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[Martin Neubauer]

* Anant Narayanan (anant@kix.in) wrote:
> >The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous  
> >development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that  
> >they ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever  
> >animosity towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind  
> >through the years, should not have anything to do with their need/ 
> >want to learn about Plan 9. They do "not" need your smart-alecky  
> >quoting of Rob Pike. What they need is some guidance in their  
> >transition, regardless of their purpose or previous experiences. If  
> >you are not kind enough to help, you can at least stand by while  
> >others do that.
> 
> It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning  
> GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before -  
> rekindling the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they  
> have.
> 
> Cheers,
> Anant

Another issue is the implicit assumption that a new environment which
doesn't provide all the familiar things one is grown accustomed to is
automatically defective. It's actually not that hard to just get to know
things for a few weeks (Plan 9 really is pretty accessible) and then attempt
to tackle usability issues that have arisen rather than trying to recreate a
linux environment (particularly as there already is a perfectly adequate
linux environment out there - it's called linux.) Perhaps Andrzej
Rosłanowski put it best (speaking about set theory, though): ``If you want
to read mathematics, first learn its language, get educated, don't complain
about your willies.''

	Martin

Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[Greg Comeau]

In article <B266EDD6-7572-4528-BC5D-8949F7311DBF@kix.in>,
Anant Narayanan <9fans@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>> The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
>> development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that
>> they ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever
>> animosity towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind
>> through the years, should not have anything to do with their need/
>> want to learn about Plan 9. They do "not" need your smart-alecky
>> quoting of Rob Pike. What they need is some guidance in their
>> transition, regardless of their purpose or previous experiences. If
>> you are not kind enough to help, you can at least stand by while
>> others do that.
>
>It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning
>GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before -
>rekindling the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they
>have.

Anybody have a URL link handy?  Thanks.
--
Greg Comeau / 4.3.9 with C++0xisms now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==>     http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers:  Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[erik quanstrom]

9fans.net/archive

- erik

Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[Skip Tavakkolian]

checking the 9fans archives is a good place to start.  many topics
have already been discussed in great detail.  it also gives new 9fans
an idea of who to pay attention to and who to ignore.

> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:01:49 -0000, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them...
>>
>> Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans
>> archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a
>> billion times before.
>>
>> Some 20 years 'suddenly'...
>>
>> uriel
>
> I wonder if you are bitter or something about Plan 9, or the people who
> are trying to learn about it. Because you seem to be trying your best to
> deter them. What is an "old path" to you, is "the new way" to us, the
> hobbyists among us particularly, and we need some incentive, some
> supportive character perhaps, to encourage us along the way.
>
> The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
> development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that they
> ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever animosity
> towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind through the years,
> should not have anything to do with their need/want to learn about Plan 9.
> They do "not" need your smart-alecky quoting of Rob Pike. What they need
> is some guidance in their transition, regardless of their purpose or
> previous experiences. If you are not kind enough to help, you can at least
> stand by while others do that.
>
> The above is not "ad hominem," by the way. I do not mean it to be so, in
> the least. I am only trying to point out my not-so-positive impression of
> your post.
>
> --
> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

[Michael Andronov]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3086 bytes --]

Checking the archives - definitely a useful step, and should be considered
as step #1 probably in all forums...

Saying that,  I tried it myself. I have spent some time on web trying to
find "C++ and Plan 9 history"...
The most common archive access, I managed to find, is:
   http://9fans.net/archive/
with an option of google search through... I tried that with 'C++ Plan9'....
and indeed got  multiple pages from archive... most of which were
interesting from historic point of view, but not too useful from
understanding of what has been done, what has not been done, why, etc...

The point is that above mentioned way to search archive... is not too
useful... If somebody can advise a better way for pre-screening archives,
the advice would be highly appreciated.

Another point is that before I asked the question about c++ under plan 9 as
one the newbies questions a couple of weeks ago ( just before Philipp picked
up the ball), the archive has been searched indeed...  So, Anant  wish is
already granted. :)

Finally, thanks again for all comments and nice discussion on the topic.



On Feb 4, 2008 2:22 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:

> checking the 9fans archives is a good place to start.  many topics
> have already been discussed in great detail.  it also gives new 9fans
> an idea of who to pay attention to and who to ignore.
>
> > On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:01:49 -0000, Uriel <uriel99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them...
> >>
> >> Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans
> >> archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a
> >> billion times before.
> >>
> >> Some 20 years 'suddenly'...
> >>
> >> uriel
> >
> > I wonder if you are bitter or something about Plan 9, or the people who
> > are trying to learn about it. Because you seem to be trying your best to
> > deter them. What is an "old path" to you, is "the new way" to us, the
> > hobbyists among us particularly, and we need some incentive, some
> > supportive character perhaps, to encourage us along the way.
> >
> > The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
> > development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that they
> > ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever animosity
> > towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind through the years,
> > should not have anything to do with their need/want to learn about Plan
> 9.
> > They do "not" need your smart-alecky quoting of Rob Pike. What they need
> > is some guidance in their transition, regardless of their purpose or
> > previous experiences. If you are not kind enough to help, you can at
> least
> > stand by while others do that.
> >
> > The above is not "ad hominem," by the way. I do not mean it to be so, in
> > the least. I am only trying to point out my not-so-positive impression
> of
> > your post.
> >
> > --
> > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3779 bytes --]