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(Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <7eb7bd48-c6c1-4649-8c7b-000df046fed1@posixcafe.org> <17155723490.63cF0a1BB.31755@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Jacob Moody In-Reply-To: <17155723490.63cF0a1BB.31755@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3bf82aa8-10e3-11ef-9b59-f135078c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NMDJlZWRhZGVkYTI0ZjE2MmFlMDI5?= =?UTF-8?B?MmZlPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M02eedadeda24f162ae0292fe:1:tIXcaRqvTD9Cid6p-XLkuz--cpadR3Hn7ATJF835JgA On 5/12/24 22:52, ibrahim via 9fans wrote: > On Monday, 13 May 2024, at 5:09 AM, Jacob Moody wrote: >> When people suggest tossing that all out for a minimally patched 4e, I t= hink some people rightfully feel a bit annoyed. That's a lot of baby that g= oes out with that bathwater. >=20 > It's Davids decission what he includes as patches for the 4th edition but= I would toss everything out of 9legacy which isn't part of the 4th edition= or contributed by the team members at Bell Labs from their archives as enh= ancements. >=20 > The reasoning is simple : p9f owns the rights for the final release and N= okia has made this release available under a MIT license. Every one who use= s plan9 not only to toy around or his/her personal use but also as a system= which he/she distributes like I do can't afford risks with code integrated= from sources like 9front. There are some libraries taken from 9front deriv= ed from other open source projects like freetype (truetype) where copyright= notices are absent and this isn't the only library > where in code comments the sources are named but the original copyright n= otices are absent. >=20 > plan9 as represented by p9f has a clear license all parts which are not M= IT licensed are marked as such but code back ported from other forks like 9= front contain code where I have doubts if those are really under an MIT lic= ense as you state in your documentation cause deriving from a different lic= ense or taking large amounts of code doesn't remove viral licenses like LGP= L or GPL. If you have a list of libraries that you feel do not represent their licens= e providence by /lib/legal/NOTICE in our 9front tree, let me know we should= probably get that updated. Our libttf is not derived from freetype as I understand it. >=20 > It would be in the interest of plan9 and all who professionally use it in= embedded systems or as a distributed operating system to keep suspicious c= ode out of the 9legacy CD. If really necessary to provide such contribution= s or back ports I wouldn't place them in the system folders but as it was i= n the past in contrib folders for additional download. The risks to infect = a clearly licensed system gifted by Nokia to all of us to make best use of = it for free commercial private embedded ... > solutions are to high and I would really prefer it when nothing from fork= s like 9front would take its way into the 9legacy CD ROM which is defined a= s : >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Plan 9 archives, referen= ce releases of Plan 9. > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 9legacy, Plan 9 with man= y useful patches applied. Download page has an > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 installation CD image in= cluding 386, amd64, and arm kernels and binaries; > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a bootable USB image for= 386; a bootable SD card image for Raspberry Pi; > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and virtual disk images = for QEMU and GCE. > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The 4th Edition distribu= tion from Bell Labs: > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 live CD/install CD/USB i= mage, installation notes, > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 browse the source, addit= ional software Are you implying that a majority of users are using Plan9 in a commercial s= etting? That seems a bit absurd. For personal use I think these license issues (if they do even exist) are o= f no concern. I think you are greatly exaggerating the possible issue here for your average user. >=20 > I respect your fork 9front but I won't and can't use it. 9front isn't pla= n9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with patches for the fi= les from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken from open source pro= jects by copy and paste. The moment I and others who use plan9 for distribu= tion or embed it on systems we have to be absolutely sure about the sources= of the code. I can trust Bell Labs, Nokia, p9f but I won't trust some guys= who toy around with their fork of plan9. The moment > FSF or another organisation starts to suit me because they recognized tha= t some guy at any forked system has copy pasted code from a viral licensed = project I am the one who has to take the consequences. Again, I think in your situation of distributing hardware with plan 9 or wh= atever, then it makes sense to do whatever your lawyer says. I think advising against using 9front for every user on these grounds thoug= h is misleading at best. >=20 > The first thing I am doing after downloading an iso from 9 legacy is to r= emove all files which were not part of the final plan9 release. The second = thing I have always to do is removing all patches from the iso which came f= rom sources I can't be sure if they really followed licensing rules. The th= ird thing I have to do before distributing my fork of plan9 is to remove fo= nts ghostscript diff page and other parts of the system which would infect = the distribution media to make sure the created > system is not depending on viral licensed code. Do you also remove the Lucida and printer fonts? These were released as par= t of the original source but have interesting claims as to the ability to r= edistribute them. Do you also strip out the parts of ape that include ancient GNU utilities? = Are you running your system without a diff and patch? >=20 > My fork isn't the only one which gets distributed. I'm sure there exist m= illions of devices with plan9 integrated without anyone noticing except for= those who look into the documentation where the MIT licensed copyright is = placed. >=20 > If people from forks like 9front are talking about numbers of their users= I always have to laugh. My fork is right now used by about 500 people per = semester more users. And be assured this is an unimportant number. And Java runs on a billion devices. >=20 > Not a single developer who uses plan9 for distributed systems, commercial= products will dare to use a system like 9front as the sources. The reason = is quite simple : >=20 > You ignore copyrights as you please and distributed 9front under an MIT l= icense long before Nokia as the owner of it decided to do so. You did that = at a time when plan9 was placed under GPL. >=20 > 9front is a fork your fork I respect your work. But all your commits and = enhancements are absolutly useless for people who intend or use plan9 not o= nly=C2=A0 to play around with this system but make professional use of it. = The first thing such people have to check is the way you handle licenses. I'm quite curious as to your definition of "professional" in one where none= of the work done by 9front would be seen as beneficial. I'm glad you expanded upon this, I think its important context to have for = why you didn't suggest 9front to our new user here. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M02eed= adeda24f162ae0292fe Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription