Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

> We, academic community is 'open', anyone can get the resources
> we developed.   However, if you want to enter the community,
> you have to be evaluated before.   In this sense, academic community
> is not completely 'open'.   However, we don't believe it's not open.
> I'd like the Plan 9 community is as such.

I might be missing your point as usual, but the community is open
and anyone can get the sources regardless of how one get them
(9fs sources/web browser).  Nothing of browsing the sources on www
contradicts to your idea of open-ness, doesn't it?
-- 

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

> I might be missing your point as usual, but the community is open
> and anyone can get the sources regardless of how one get them

This is the problem I bramed.☺

> (9fs sources/web browser).  Nothing of browsing the sources on www
> contradicts to your idea of open-ness, doesn't it?

You should implement some tools to identify the user and verify who is
the real user.   At least to log those informations for us.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

> This is the problem I bramed.☺

s/bramed/blamed/

Sorry.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

On Wed Jan 26 14:09:22 JST 2005, Kenji Okamoto wrote:
> > I might be missing your point as usual, but the community is open
> > and anyone can get the sources regardless of how one get them
> 
> This is the problem I bramed.?

Didn't you write that you'd like the community to be as such?

	We, academic community is 'open', anyone can get the resources
	we developed.   However, if you want to enter the community,
	you have to be evaluated before.   In this sense, academic community
	is not completely 'open'.   However, we don't believe it's not open.
	I'd like the Plan 9 community is as such.

> You should implement some tools to identify the user and verify who is
> the real user.   At least to log those informations for us.

And I think getting access to the sources doesn't count as entering
the community so one doesn't need to be evaluated before getting them.
Even Lucent isn't gathering these info anyway...
-- 

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

> And I think getting access to the sources doesn't count as entering
> the community so one doesn't need to be evaluated before getting them.

That's cheap way, I don't like.   Probably, in such a way, money or darty
man will win over human's good will.

> Even Lucent isn't gathering these info anyway...

I don't know what kind of job in Lucent is beeing done.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

>> Even Lucent isn't gathering these info anyway...
> 
> I don't know what kind of job in Lucent is beeing done.

I fogot one.
We need password to get sources!
Password is not so strong to prevent intruder... Maybe so, but,
it's better than nothing.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[andrey mirtchovski]

> We need password to get sources!
> Password is not so strong to prevent intruder... Maybe so, but,
> it's better than nothing.

Bell Labs have been fine with redistribution for quite some time, it
appears:

 	http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2004-February/031969.html

that doesn't answer the question whether we, 9fans, are ok with other
people's greasy fingers on "our" baby :)

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

>  	http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2004-February/031969.html

hanger18!
Oh! no!

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

I should be more full to explain my thoughts on this issue.

1) Do we need to expertize Plan 9 distribution more?
 
	No, these decade history of Plan 9 revealed we don't.
	Plan 9 is for someone who really want it.

2) sources is not enough for dowloading things for us?

	I don't think so.
	It seems not so large amount of downloders of Plan 9.☺

3) Do we need another host to prepare when the sources will appear?

	Maybe.  if so, Yamanashi-san がんばれ!

4) Other downlod site may make the difficulty more?

	Yes, now it's not so easy to maintain the consistency between
	source trees.

5) anyother?

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[andrey mirtchovski]

> 5) anyother?

browsing the source is very educational for newcomers. allowing for an easy
interface to that is beneficial...

i myself used offworld at cmu.edu primarily when learning the system.
especially the way LXR (which is what offworld used) linked the function
calls to the function definition.

it took me half a year to acquire identical swiftness when using acme..

andrey

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

>> 5) anyother?
> 
> browsing the source is very educational for newcomers. allowing for an easy
> interface to that is beneficial...

You newcomers must be programmers, because anyother doesn't read sources.☺

For programmers, it's his/her work to learn new things, then, they may reach
Plan 9 sometime.   It's easy to install Plan 9 for them.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Vester Thacker]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:44:37 +0900, Kenji Okamoto
<okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> wrote:
> I should be more full to explain my thoughts on this issue.
> 
> 1) Do we need to expertize Plan 9 distribution more?
> 
>         No, these decade history of Plan 9 revealed we don't.
>         Plan 9 is for someone who really want it.

We can agree to disagree, but I say 'Yes' to the question. There are
areas where Plan 9 needs to be improved to stay current. I believe it
is important to change with the times. For example, more and more
machines today are sold without a floppy drive. This makes it
difficult to pass parameters, as with an edited plan9.ini on a boot
floppy, if you're doing a CD only install. Of course, Plan 9 can still
be installed but at a greater cost in time and effort. Why not revise
a method/tool if it is possible? Having an installation that also
serves as an aptitude test is a dumb idea.  "A program should do one
thing well", I forgot who said that originally.

> 2) sources is not enough for dowloading things for us?
> 
>         I don't think so.
>         It seems not so large amount of downloders of Plan 9.☺

Viewing sources via http and seeing changes over time is helpful to
some people. Granted, not everyone is a programmer. But if a few
programmers find it useful, then I say why not give them an easy to
view resource.

On another note, I wonder how often Plan 9 sources will appear when
doing a Google search for a C reserve word. ;-)

> 3) Do we need another host to prepare when the sources will appear?
> 
>         Maybe.  if so, Yamanashi-san がんばれ!

It never hurts to be prepared.  If Lucent was ever to give up Plan 9
and request the Plan 9 community to move the source tree out of the
Labs, then Plan 9 would have a happy home in Japan. Of course, only if
it meets the approval of the Plan 9 community. ;-)

> 4) Other downlod site may make the difficulty more?
> 
>         Yes, now it's not so easy to maintain the consistency between
>         source trees.

There is only one true source tree, the one at Lucent, everything else
is a mirror image. Consistency is an issue, but a manageable one.

-vester

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

Now, I have no objection to you and Yamanashi-san.
Do a good job!

>>         Maybe.  if so, Yamanashi-san がんばれ!

By the way, now I know you are reading this mail by Plan 9.☺

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>>> Even Lucent isn't gathering these info anyway...
>> 
>> I don't know what kind of job in Lucent is beeing done.
> 
> I fogot one.
> We need password to get sources!
> Password is not so strong to prevent intruder... Maybe so, but,
> it's better than nothing.
> 
> Kenji

I'm sure if Lucent had felt a need, they could have 
put a "Plan9-worthy" clause in the license.  They didn't.

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

Thanks for the explanation about license issues, russ.
I should have written in the announce mail that I had
checked about it.

As for the moral issue, I hope the fact that it is the Plan 9
source is obvious enough to get gateway users to reach back to
Bell Labs.
-- 

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

hi, 

> Making source trees available to anyone who want it may help
> the community or may not.   I think it's not so clear to me yet, 
> only to me?

Well... I dunno either.  Just that there was a similar service
for 3rd ed. Plan 9 before and I miss it sometimes.  So I made it.

Can somebody explain why the similar service for 3rd ed. was shutdown?
I might be able to learn from that too.  The url was:
	http://offworld.fac.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/9login
-- 

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[andrey mirtchovski]

> Well... I dunno either.  Just that there was a similar service
> for 3rd ed. Plan 9 before and I miss it sometimes.  So I made it.
> 

one significant difference -- offworld forced you to accept the
licence with a click-through dialogue...

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

> one significant difference -- offworld forced you to accept the
> licence with a click-through dialogue...

I think even if there is no such license terms, we should keep the
old moral that is when you want to learn from someone, you have to
visit him/her and get permission to be done so directly...

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Devon H. O'Dell]

Kenji Okamoto wrote:
>>one significant difference -- offworld forced you to accept the
>>licence with a click-through dialogue...
> 
> 
> I think even if there is no such license terms, we should keep the
> old moral that is when you want to learn from someone, you have to
> visit him/her and get permission to be done so directly...
> 
> Kenji

I think that when the source was made open source software, that these 
rights were explicitly given.

--Devon

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

> I think that when the source was made open source software, that these 
> rights were explicitly given.

if say only logically, you may be right.
However, there are human back of the 'open' software.
I believe human wants to make face to face contact with
everything when he/she has to give something his/her-own
to someone else.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

> Hi, I setup a src browsing gateway on a tip9ug server.

I forgot one thing.  I will try to look into steve's work (srch)
and add a feature which you can jump to the function/variable
declarations when you click on such names.
-- 

[9fans] browse /sys/src

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

Hi, I setup a src browsing gateway on a tip9ug server.
	http://www.tip9ug.jp/magic/srcgw/sys/src

HISTORY link is not much useful yet because I don't pull
regulary and there's almost nothing in /n/dump.  Hope the
gateway finds sourcesdump soon.

Also, a mirror of Installation CD's iso image is also
available on the server.  Please read the License before
download the image.
	http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/license.html
	http://www.tip9ug.jp/mirror/plan9.iso.bz2

The image is updated daily.

Hope these will help.
-- 
Sincerely, 
YAMANASHI Takeshi

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Hi, I setup a src browsing gateway on a tip9ug server.
> 	http://www.tip9ug.jp/magic/srcgw/sys/src
> 
> HISTORY link is not much useful yet because I don't pull
> regulary and there's almost nothing in /n/dump.  Hope the
> gateway finds sourcesdump soon.

I'm not offending your efforts basically.
It said first, however, I'd like to know the process of discussions 
where you and sources members and also this 9fans community 
members.   I don't want to discuss LICENSE frames, however,
I believe we have more basic moral to make refer the others
works...

Making source trees available to anyone who want it may help
the community or may not.   I think it's not so clear to me yet, 
only to me?

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Michael H. Collins]

yes. i call bullshit

too

Kenji Okamoto wrote:
>>Hi, I setup a src browsing gateway on a tip9ug server.
>>	http://www.tip9ug.jp/magic/srcgw/sys/src
>>
>>HISTORY link is not much useful yet because I don't pull
>>regulary and there's almost nothing in /n/dump.  Hope the
>>gateway finds sourcesdump soon.
> 
> 
> I'm not offending your efforts basically.
> It said first, however, I'd like to know the process of discussions 
> where you and sources members and also this 9fans community 
> members.   I don't want to discuss LICENSE frames, however,
> I believe we have more basic moral to make refer the others
> works...
> 
> Making source trees available to anyone who want it may help
> the community or may not.   I think it's not so clear to me yet, 
> only to me?
> 
> Kenji
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Michael H. Collins  Admiral, Penguinista Navy

http://linuxlink.com

/"\    	ASCII Ribbon Campaign
\ /    	No HTML/RTF in email
  x     	No Word docs in email
/ \    	Respect for open standards

Take your laptop and yell out:
"Can a brother get a ip address?"

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[boyd, rounin]

> yes. i call bullshit

the Repo code ...
--
MGRS 31U DQ 52572 12604

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Russ Cox]

No need to jump on Yamanashi.  He checked with us
at Bell Labs before announcing it.  The consensus here
is that making the LICENSE file obvious on the site and
in the downloaded tgzs is sufficient.

Lucent insists on the click-through for the official distribution,
but the terms of the Lucent Public License do not require
it of others.  (This is in contrast to the Plan 9 License,
which did.)  There is at least already one external site 
already that makes much of the Plan 9 source available
without a click-through: the plan9port site.

I believe the CMU 3rd ed. browser was shut down because
the person running it moved on and could no longer
maintain it.

I think the web interface to sources that Yamanashi set
up is quite nice.  

Russ

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Lucent insists on the click-through for the official distribution,
> but the terms of the Lucent Public License do not require
> it of others.  (This is in contrast to the Plan 9 License,
> which did.)  There is at least already one external site 
> already that makes much of the Plan 9 source available
> without a click-through: the plan9port site.

I believe, because I haven't got it, plan9port is only a part of Plan9,
I mean, by only those we cannot run Plan 9.

> I think the web interface to sources that Yamanashi set
> up is quite nice.  

I doubt this.
Web can be reached from anyone who wants, even he/she is
a terrorist etc, I don't mean the word same as Iqaqi etc.

We, academic community is 'open', anyone can get the resources
we developed.   However, if you want to enter the community,
you have to be evaluated before.   In this sense, academic community
is not completely 'open'.   However, we don't believe it's not open.
I'd like the Plan 9 community is as such.

I don't brame click-through procedure of Lucent, because it's just
like the above I mentioned.   I still believe moral term.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Kenji Okamoto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 162 bytes --]

I forgot one thing.

I don't say that the sources should be limited to Lucent alone.
However, this issue should be discussed before making decision.

Kenji

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 4358 bytes --]

From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
To: russcox@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:28:54 +0900
Message-ID: <2aab0c267882f16e9ce77d5b9ff0f5a8@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>

> Lucent insists on the click-through for the official distribution,
> but the terms of the Lucent Public License do not require
> it of others.  (This is in contrast to the Plan 9 License,
> which did.)  There is at least already one external site 
> already that makes much of the Plan 9 source available
> without a click-through: the plan9port site.

I believe, because I haven't got it, plan9port is only a part of Plan9,
I mean, by only those we cannot run Plan 9.

> I think the web interface to sources that Yamanashi set
> up is quite nice.  

I doubt this.
Web can be reached from anyone who wants, even he/she is
a terrorist etc, I don't mean the word same as Iqaqi etc.

We, academic community is 'open', anyone can get the resources
we developed.   However, if you want to enter the community,
you have to be evaluated before.   In this sense, academic community
is not completely 'open'.   However, we don't believe it's not open.
I'd like the Plan 9 community is as such.

I don't brame click-through procedure of Lucent, because it's just
like the above I mentioned.   I still believe moral term.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> We, academic community is 'open', anyone can get the resources
> we developed.   However, if you want to enter the community,
> you have to be evaluated before.   In this sense, academic community
> is not completely 'open'.   However, we don't believe it's not open.
> I'd like the Plan 9 community is as such.

I don't.

BTW, Plan9 is the most practical system I have. I can access all my data
all the time from anywhere.  It's secure, reliable and resilient. It's wrong
to reinforce the impression that Plan9 is some academic exercise.

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Matthias Teege]

> all the time from anywhere.  It's secure, reliable and resilient. It's wrong
> to reinforce the impression that Plan9 is some academic exercise.

I don't know if I understand Kenji Okamotos point but I agree with
Skip in this point.  Plan 9 isn't a toy.  It is one of it strengths
that it has left behind the academic exercise stage.  I don't know any
other "alternative" system which is usefull (today) like Plan 9 is.
Ok, maybe Minix works but it's yust another UNIX.  ;-)

Matthias

Re: [9fans] browse /sys/src

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 119 bytes --]

The interface for browsing is really nice. It's also nice
to be able to use the dump from there :-)

Thanks a lot.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3067 bytes --]

From: YAMANASHI Takeshi <9.nashi@gmail.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] browse /sys/src
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:00:32 +0900
Message-ID: <6abdda19759c2c9e08a6a15e7e871166@orthanc.cc.titech.ac.jp>

Hi, I setup a src browsing gateway on a tip9ug server.
	http://www.tip9ug.jp/magic/srcgw/sys/src

HISTORY link is not much useful yet because I don't pull
regulary and there's almost nothing in /n/dump.  Hope the
gateway finds sourcesdump soon.

Also, a mirror of Installation CD's iso image is also
available on the server.  Please read the License before
download the image.
	http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/license.html
	http://www.tip9ug.jp/mirror/plan9.iso.bz2

The image is updated daily.

Hope these will help.
-- 
Sincerely, 
YAMANASHI Takeshi