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Wed, 3 Feb 2021 10:08:14 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-93-gef6c4048e6-fm-20210128.002-gef6c4048 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <6cdb0486-ddba-4d63-a4cd-a8927c9d5be5@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20210202082918.GA601@polynum.com> References: <867dns9s0l.fsf@cmarib.ramside> <20210202082918.GA601@polynum.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 15:07:55 +0000 From: "Ethan Gardener" To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[9fans]_GSoC_2021_project_ideas_(WAS:_Re:_Plan_9_Applying_?= =?UTF-8?Q?to_GSoC_2021)?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: a7fbd304-6631-11eb-8604-89aaf1b70c04 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UMWMzMDBjZGJkOTk0MWVkYi1NMWIzYzI3NjcxZmNmZmFlMmU1ZmZh?= =?UTF-8?B?NjA0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M1b3c27671fcffae2e5ffa604:1:vcp6bkZ613QeFf3U7eThr6hLMvYwCk7h7TVTK6Obvgc On Tue, Feb 2, 2021, at 8:29 AM, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote: > >=20 > > Plan 9-related: > >=20 > > (1) Porting the Plan 9 kernel to a microkernel architecture, such as > > Mach. This would give Plan 9 instant access to the whole range of > > hardware supported by the underlying microkernel. Apple's Mach is not a microkernel. The first pure microkernel version of th= e Mach architecture was 3.0. Apple have stuck with 2.5 all these years. The= ability to use drivers from some more popular OS would be nice for users i= f it works, but there are a host of possible integration and maintenance pr= oblems. In fact, I know there are problems I don't quite understand related= to differing OS designs. The parts I do understand indicate there could be= a huge performance penalty in using drivers in OSs for which they were not= designed. I specifically say "more popular" because popularity affects the number of = developers available. In those terms, 9front is already in the rarified str= atosphere of well-developed hobby OSs. I'd put only 2 or 3 other OSs as its= equal. In the next level up, (orbital space? ;) and not counting the BSDs,= Haiku is the only one I can think of off the top of my head (but I have ju= st woken up). We might yet see other OSs implementing 9p so they can use ou= r drivers. :)=20 > No. One should re-read the initial papers about Plan9. When Plan9 was > designed, microkernels were "fashionable". If one reads carefully the > paper, it's clear that there is a pun intended against microkernels that > didn't achieve what they were supposed to do---disastrous efficiency > leading to the rewrite of the microkernels as assembly---a very low > signal/noise ratio. And a hint: "micro" kernels are usually _huge_, a > clear sign that something went wrong. Uh... these arguments are kind-of obsolete. Plan 9 is a hybrid on the macro= -micro kernel scale. So are mainstream OSs, having arrived at that point by= various routes from whatever their origin was. Microkernel QNX is tiny and= , if I understand right, makes service development easier than Plan 9 does.= I suggest the huge "microkernels" are really hybrids, but I'll omit reason= ing on why. > As drivers are concerned, there was once a kit supposed to give a wide > range of kernels, drivers code---I don't know where it is now; I suppose > it has vanished. And now probably UEFI drivers is a "better than nothing" > solution. Uh... UEFI boot services are typically available, but UEFI run-time service= s are a different thing. A long-time OS dev I know does not expect UEFI run= time services to ever be available on commercial-grade hardware. He is a te= rrible cynic and I can't remember quite how that debate ended, but in gener= al, it looks like UEFI isn't significantly better than the old PC BIOS for = compatibility. As they say on osdev.net, "Writing a bootloader which works = on one computer is easy. Writing a bootloader which works on many computers= is hard." Note this statement is only about features necessary for booting= an OS, whether BIOS or UEFI. If those are bad, features not necessary for = booting will be worse. And performance of the kind needed at run-time is ha= rdly a consideration when booting. (I appologise for my poor sentence const= ruction. I've just woken up.) > My 2 cents, Ain't the Internet wonderful? You get 2 cents back with a lot of interest! = XD Much of what I've posted here is condensed from osdev.net, especialy the fo= rums. I'd suggest lurking there if you're interested in the difficulties (o= r otherwise) of driver development. It's not perfect by a long shot, but it= is a better place for it than this list. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T1c300cdbd9941edb-M1b3c2= 7671fcffae2e5ffa604 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription