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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n7sm963640qta.78.2022.01.29.08.56.32 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:56:32 -0800 (PST) From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6AAEC6AB-6F31-4494-A832-C6FFEDED7667" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:56:31 -0800 References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Message-Id: <700A0B4D-23A6-4980-9DC8-50E293A34296@iitbombay.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 6e1e14e4-8124-11ec-b4c6-af0128166248 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZDYwYzkwMmI5ZTIwNDkzMmM0MTAz?= =?UTF-8?B?OThlPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Md60c902b9e204932c410398e:1:TWaJ6aVOfa0r-uZ5kKQekKRk34VvXNf4VStTyj-syjA --Apple-Mail=_6AAEC6AB-6F31-4494-A832-C6FFEDED7667 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 If there is no programming to be done by the kiosk users, why do you need any compilers? Similarly you can remove many other things from your kiosk image. In fact you should have a script that prepares the image. xorg needs llvm only for *building* mesa-dri. If you are just using prebui= lt freebsd packages, you don't need it. Even if you are compiling some things inside the kiosk, you can probably make do with tcc, which is much much smaller and faster (though it won't generate as fast code as llvm or gcc). tcc is LGPL so your code is not infected. Just by cutting out the two copies of llvm, your image size will shrink by about 400-500MB. Also note that plan9 c compilers are likely no faster than tcc. And there w= ill be other challenges. Not to dissuade you from switching to plan9 but just pointing out there are ways to reduce the image size while staying with FreeBSD. > On Jan 29, 2022, at 5:03 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net > wrote: >=20 > On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 10:59 PM, hiro wrote: >> why should it be closed source? you're gonna seriously put the effort to= remove all the traces of source files? >=20 > This kiosk app is meant for students in math, electrotechnics, mechanics = ... its a closed area network where only registered students can connect. T= his plattform is only meant for exchange of data and informations. The app = is distributed as an iso to be run from bare hardware or qemu (virtual box)= . The current version is running based on FreeBSD and has a size caused by = X11 necessity and accompanying programs of 800 MB. I'm trying to reduce the= size and increasing the performance by using plan9. My plattform generates= form many simulation tasks, symbolic calculations, plotting, ... intermedi= ate C code and translates this to programs which are called as child proces= ses and generate their output for rendering. LLVM is needed two times in th= e FreeBSD installation once for X11 and once as a system compiler. By using= plan9 I can reduce the size of this kiosk application to estimated 300 MB.= I gave plan9 a try a few years ago and was fascinated but the licence wasn= 't attractive at that time. But now it's ideal for such tasks. >=20 > Some sources are part of this installment inside a loop file those are pr= ovided internally with a ramfs so in time compilation gets possible. The mo= ment I include GPL licensed code into this ramfs this would infect my own l= icence. My plattform is BSD 2 claused the students can distribute it freely= but the mechanics for connecting to the closed area network are hidden. Th= e MIT licence, zlib, Ogg Vorbis license are compatible with BSD 2 license a= nd require proper acknowlegdement but GPL can't be used in such a manner.=20 >=20 > Plan9 with its new license is optimal for such applications. I think that= plan9 would have been more wide spread if this new license would have been= applied from the beginning. And I believe that the reason why NetBSD, Open= BSD, FreeBSD are not as wide spread as Linux was the lack of a compiler sui= te conforming to the BSD license. Some time ago the BSD project asked for a= license change for plan9 to integrate the C compiler which didn't happen a= t that time. But I'm sure that in the near future their will be some BSD fo= rks which will take more ideas and tools from Plan9 (especially the compile= r suite). Plan9 has more advantages besides those - nearly direct access to= the hardware and a simplified way to enhancements due to its namespaces an= d 9fs.=20 >=20 > I'm using BSD systems since 1991 and I think its important to follow a st= rict licensing scheme otherwise many years later as it happened in NetBSD, = FreeBSD and OpenBSD you start to search for alternative implementations cau= se at some point your code is not accompanied by incompatible licensed code= but is depending on those so it is infected. If you decide to distribute a= system with a non infecting open source license than its important to do t= his in a consistent form. The more time passes the more you depend on parts= and the less gets the chance to exchange those parts.=20 >=20 > I am consequently avoiding infecting licenses in my projects and my distr= ibutions for decades now and those parts of plan9 (9front) which are not co= nforming are not a big deal to throw away. diff, patch are available in con= forming licensed versions. I prefer ogg vorbis to mp3 due to its patent pro= blems in the past. There are dozens of truetype fonts with better quality a= nd distributable. The only problematic part not only to plan9 but also all = BSD systems is ghostscript but I have an existing translater from postscrip= t to svg and a closed source svg library for rendering for other projects w= here I would perhaps need page and the dependency to ghostscript. No need f= or lzip and xen ... >=20 > The reason why this reply was this long is simple : >=20 > My experience from the past and my involvements in BSD projects tought me= that many open source projects try to take large steps in short time and m= ost often they borrow code or libraries from projects not conforming with t= heir chosen license. Legal questions are taken very lightly for a few years= but than at some point in time those legal questions surface. The reason w= hy linux took over was this simple - BSD 4.3 lost its compilers. >=20 > There are people (I am one of them) who also have to write commercial pro= jects for a living. I'm developing embedded software for electronic circuit= s and plan9 is now a real alternative for me cause of its new license. I ca= n decide for each project if I want to make it open source or not. And by c= onsequently avoiding infecting licenses I can use the same code base for op= en source as well as closed source projects. >=20 > Why do you think p9f asked for a relicensing of plan9 while it was alread= y gpl licensed a few years ago ? Both are redistributable but the MIT versi= on is also usable for closed source commercial projects while the GPL versi= on is not. Does this matter ? Yes of course it matters for people or compan= ies. Its sometimes amusing to see developers taking legal issues lightly.=20 >=20 > I'm not an advocate but be assured : The moment you distribute lets say a= set top box based on plan9 using legacy9 or 9front and you don't delete th= ose mentioned parts from your distribution you can't make it closed source.= If your set top box plays mp3 or opens a pdf ps file by using ghostscript = and this is a significant part of the functionality you have created a deri= ved work based on or depending on GPL'ed code. To solve this problem you wo= uld have to seperate those parts from your hardware and make it downloadabl= e to keep it closed source. But this wouldn't be a real solution because pa= ge depends on the existence of ghostscript to display pdf and ps files so y= ou have a 1:1 dependency. FSF perhaps won't take this seriously. Aladdin wi= ll because they offer a commercial license alternative. And your concurrent= s will also look closely to make your product open sourced. This is not fic= tion this is reality happening hundreds of times per year.=20 >=20 > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery=C2=A0options Permalink ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Md60c9= 02b9e204932c410398e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --Apple-Mail=_6AAEC6AB-6F31-4494-A832-C6FFEDED7667 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
If there is no programming to be done b= y the kiosk users, why do you need
any compilers? Similarly = you can remove many other things from your
kiosk image= . In fact you should have a script that prepares the image.

xorg needs llvm only for *buil= ding* mesa-dri.  If you are just using prebuilt
f= reebsd packages, you don't need it. Even if you are compiling some thin= gs
inside the kiosk, you can probably make do with tcc= , which is much much
smaller and faster (though it won= 't generate as fast code as llvm or gcc).
tcc is L= GPL so your code is not infected. Just by cutting out the two copies
<= div class=3D"">of llvm, your image size will shrink by about 400-500MB.

Also note that pla= n9 c compilers are likely no faster than tcc. And there will
be other challenges.

Not to dissuade you from switching to plan9 but just pointing = out
there are ways to reduce the image size while stay= ing with FreeBSD.

On = Jan 29, 2022, at 5:03 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

On Fr= iday, 28 January 2022, at 10:59 PM, hiro wrote:
why should it be closed source? you're gonna seriously put the effort to remove all the traces of sourc= e files?

This kiosk app is meant for students in math, electrotech= nics, mechanics ... its a closed area network where only registered student= s can connect. This plattform is only meant for exchange of data and inform= ations. The app is distributed as an iso to be run from bare hardware or qe= mu (virtual box). The current version is running based on FreeBSD and has a= size caused by X11 necessity and accompanying programs of 800 MB. I'm = trying to reduce the size and increasing the performance by using plan9. My= plattform generates form many simulation tasks, symbolic calculations, plo= tting, ... intermediate C code and translates this to programs which are ca= lled as child processes and generate their output for rendering. LLVM is ne= eded two times in the FreeBSD installation once for X11 and once as a syste= m compiler. By using plan9 I can reduce the size of this kiosk application = to estimated 300 MB. I gave plan9 a try a few years ago and was fascinated = but the licence wasn't attractive at that time. But now it's ideal = for such tasks.

Some sources are part of this installment inside a loop f= ile those are provided internally with a ramfs so in time compilation gets = possible. The moment I include GPL licensed code into this ramfs this would= infect my own licence. My plattform is BSD 2 claused the students can dist= ribute it freely but the mechanics for connecting to the closed area networ= k are hidden. The MIT licence, zlib, Ogg Vorbis license are compatible with= BSD 2 license and require proper acknowlegdement but GPL can't be used= in such a manner.

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Plan9 with its new license is optimal for such applic= ations. I think that plan9 would have been more wide spread if this new lic= ense would have been applied from the beginning. And I believe that the rea= son why NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD are not as wide spread as Linux was the la= ck of a compiler suite conforming to the BSD license. Some time ago the BSD= project asked for a license change for plan9 to integrate the C compiler w= hich didn't happen at that time. But I'm sure that in the near futu= re their will be some BSD forks which will take more ideas and tools from P= lan9 (especially the compiler suite). Plan9 has more advantages besides tho= se - nearly direct access to the hardware and a simplified way to enhanceme= nts due to its namespaces and 9fs.
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I'm using BSD systems since 1991 = and I think its important to follow a strict licensing scheme otherwise man= y years later as it happened in NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD you start to se= arch for alternative implementations cause at some point your code is not a= ccompanied by incompatible licensed code but is depending on those so it is= infected. If you decide to distribute a system with a non infecting open s= ource license than its important to do this in a consistent form. The more = time passes the more you depend on parts and the less gets the chance to ex= change those parts.

I am consequently avoiding infecting licenses in my = projects and my distributions for decades now and those parts of plan9 (9fr= ont) which are not conforming are not a big deal to throw away. diff, patch= are available in conforming licensed versions. I prefer ogg vorbis to mp3 = due to its patent problems in the past. There are dozens of truetype fonts = with better quality and distributable. The only problematic part not only t= o plan9 but also all BSD systems is ghostscript but I have an existing tran= slater from postscript to svg and a closed source svg library for rendering= for other projects where I would perhaps need page and the dependency to g= hostscript. No need for lzip and xen ...

The reason why this reply was = this long is simple :

My experience from the past and my involvements in = BSD projects tought me that many open source projects try to take large ste= ps in short time and most often they borrow code or libraries from projects= not conforming with their chosen license. Legal questions are taken very l= ightly for a few years but than at some point in time those legal questions= surface. The reason why linux took over was this simple - BSD 4.3 lost its= compilers.

There are people (I am one of them) who also have to write co= mmercial projects for a living. I'm developing embedded software for el= ectronic circuits and plan9 is now a real alternative for me cause of its n= ew license. I can decide for each project if I want to make it open source = or not. And by consequently avoiding infecting licenses I can use the same = code base for open source as well as closed source projects.

Why do you t= hink p9f asked for a relicensing of plan9 while it was already gpl licensed= a few years ago ? Both are redistributable but the MIT version is also usa= ble for closed source commercial projects while the GPL version is not. Doe= s this matter ? Yes of course it matters for people or companies. Its somet= imes amusing to see developers taking legal issues lightly.

I'm not = an advocate but be assured : The moment you distribute lets say a set top b= ox based on plan9 using legacy9 or 9front and you don't delete those me= ntioned parts from your distribution you can't make it closed source. I= f your set top box plays mp3 or opens a pdf ps file by using ghostscript an= d this is a significant part of the functionality you have created a derive= d work based on or depending on GPL'ed code. To solve this problem you = would have to seperate those parts from your hardware and make it downloada= ble to keep it closed source. But this wouldn't be a real solution beca= use page depends on the existence of ghostscript to display pdf and ps file= s so you have a 1:1 dependency. FSF perhaps won't take this seriously. = Aladdin will because they offer a commercial license alternative. And your = concurrents will also look closely to make your product open sourced. This = is not fiction this is reality happening hundreds of times per year.


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