Re: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)

Re: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)

[forsyth]

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you can download all you need of Inferno, including the source for Charon,
free of charge and with a licence that's at least as liberal as the Plan 9
one.

>> From this it sounds rather as if splufty new applications for Plan 9
>>are not going to happen, and that new work is all happening over in
>>Inferno land.  Is that accurate?

not at all, it's just that in this particular case, an HTML 3.x browser (with common 3.x extensions)
and Ecmascript exists, with reasonably small source (and it is being extended to 4.x etc).
it's hard work to start one of those from scratch, and if porting one of the existing ones,
good luck.


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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:18:27 GMT
Message-ID: <87vghog663.fsf@becket.becket.net>

forsyth@vitanuova.com writes:

> >>Inferno != Plan 9.
> >>There is no web browser in Plan 9---and that's got to be a big obstacle.
> 
> Inferno runs hosted under Plan 9 and Charon runs in that environment.
> we'll be blurring the boundaries further as well, at least for Plan 9.

Yeah, but Plan 9 is "free", at least in scare quotes, and AFAICT
Inferno is not.  "It runs under Inferno" is therefore considerably
materially different than Plan 9.

 From this it sounds rather as if splufty new applications for Plan 9
are not going to happen, and that new work is all happening over in
Inferno land.  Is that accurate?

Re: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

forsyth@vitanuova.com writes:

> you can download all you need of Inferno, including the source for Charon,
> free of charge and with a licence that's at least as liberal as the Plan 9
> one.

Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding!  Where do I find the
download?  A web search was pretty unsuccessful, and poking around the
vita nuova site I also failed to find it.

[Moderator's Note: try http://www.vitanuova.com]

Thomas

Re[2]: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)

[Matt]

TBB> forsyth@vitanuova.com writes:

>> you can download all you need of Inferno, including the source for Charon,
>> free of charge and with a licence that's at least as liberal as the Plan 9
>> one.

[Moderator's Note: try http://www.vitanuova.com]

oh I see,

you mean free as in $300

:)

M

Re[2]: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)

[Matt]

ah too busy trying to be funny

http://cgi.www.vitanuova.com/cgi-bin/www.vitanuova.com/idown.pl


Source code for all of the applications and library modules (written in Limbo), including:
the Charon web browser, 
the Acme integrating development environment, 
the Yacc compiler-compiler, 
the sh programmable shell, 
plumbing support (similar to Plan 9's plumber), 
several Unix-like tools: mv, cp, rm, xd, wc, grep, ps, diff, tr, man, ls ... 

Re[3]: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)

[Matt]

M> http://cgi.www.vitanuova.com/cgi-bin/www.vitanuova.com/idown.pl
Connected to www.vitanuova.com.
GET / HTTP/1.0

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:53:58 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.3 Demon/2.0 (Unix)


Apache & perl !
not very plan9 :)

has anybody managed to compile Apache in APE?

M

Re: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)

[Mike Haertel]

>> you can download all you need of Inferno, including the source for Charon,
>> free of charge and with a licence that's at least as liberal as the Plan 9
>> one.
>
>Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding!  Where do I find the
>download?  A web search was pretty unsuccessful, and poking around the
>vita nuova site I also failed to find it.

What Forsyth failed to point out, somewhat ingenuously I think,
is that the free download doesn't *really* give you all you need
to run Charon in an arbitrary environment; you're restricted to
Plan 9 (i386), FreeBSD (i386), NT (i386), (pre-2.4) Linux (i386),
Solaris (sparc), Hp-ux, or Irix.

It does include the source code for Charon, but not the source code
for the virtual machine under which Charon runs.  There, you're out
of luck if your platform is not binary-compatible with one of the
provided binaries.

Re: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)

[Lucio De Re]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 02:55:26AM -0700, Mike Haertel wrote:
> 
> It does include the source code for Charon, but not the source code
> for the virtual machine under which Charon runs.  There, you're out
> of luck if your platform is not binary-compatible with one of the
> provided binaries.

That's petty.  You're out of luck playing "Tubular Bells" on "an
old tin can, no matter what it's fitted with" (off the original
album cover).  Are you going to complain about that too?

There are innumerable things you can't do with free or paid for
resources, why single out Inferno?  Because Vita Nuova are trying
to make a buck out of something Lucent couldn't sell?  They're
working hard at it (I believe) and deserve some reward.  They also
need to make a living, and this is how they chose to do it.

Really, the missing bit behind the Open Source philosophy is an
understanding that not everyone has to buy it.  Or buy it all the
time, tyranny lurks there.

++L

Re: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

"Thomas Bushnell, BSG" <tb+usenet@becket.net> writes:

> forsyth@vitanuova.com writes:
> 
> > you can download all you need of Inferno, including the source for Charon,
> > free of charge and with a licence that's at least as liberal as the Plan 9
> > one.
> 
> Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding!  Where do I find the
> download?  A web search was pretty unsuccessful, and poking around the
> vita nuova site I also failed to find it.
> 
> [Moderator's Note: try http://www.vitanuova.com]

As should be perfectly obvious from my message, I could not see where
on that page to download Charon.  Perhaps the underlying url might be
provided?  That is what I was asking for...

Re: Re[3]: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)

[forsyth]

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we can't get the bandwidth (at sensible cost) except through an ISP and
none of them use Plan 9.


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From: Matt <matt@proweb.co.uk>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re[3]: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:58:46 +0100
Message-ID: <72257595172.20011010105846@proweb.co.uk>


M> http://cgi.www.vitanuova.com/cgi-bin/www.vitanuova.com/idown.pl
Connected to www.vitanuova.com.
GET / HTTP/1.0

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:53:58 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.3 Demon/2.0 (Unix)


Apache & perl !
not very plan9 :)

has anybody managed to compile Apache in APE?

M