* [9fans] patches from 9front @ 2021-02-10 3:27 Eli Cohen 2021-02-10 3:37 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-10 13:49 ` Steve Simon 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Eli Cohen @ 2021-02-10 3:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 553 bytes --] I noticed the patches from 9front to 9legacy are not well-maintained. I'm trying to figure out if this would be an appreciated exercise from someone (me) who doesn't know all that much and would learn from doing it, and if so, what are priorities for things to port back as patches for 9legacy thank you for Plan 9! - Eli ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M59dae010f6c9ef6b52216a94 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1089 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 3:27 [9fans] patches from 9front Eli Cohen @ 2021-02-10 3:37 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-10 3:47 ` Eli Cohen 2021-02-10 13:49 ` Steve Simon 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-10 3:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 2/10/21, Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote: > I noticed the patches from 9front to 9legacy are not well-maintained. I'm > trying to figure out if this would be an appreciated exercise from someone > (me) who doesn't know all that much and would learn from doing it, and if > so, what are priorities for things to port back as patches for 9legacy > In short: it's a bitch! I'm sure David will appreciate all the help he can get, but the code divergences will not be easy to tame. I don't like Git, but I also don't think the Plan 9 "dump" is adequate to the task of tracking "branches" as would apply in this complex case. Perhaps I can recommend isolating bug fixes as distinct from adding features, but where does one draw the line? Best of luck, if you intend to proceed. Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M116480cb96d8f6f1a2c5de41 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 3:37 ` Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-10 3:47 ` Eli Cohen 2021-02-10 4:14 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-10 7:24 ` Skip Tavakkolian 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Eli Cohen @ 2021-02-10 3:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:39 PM Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 2/10/21, Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote: > > I noticed the patches from 9front to 9legacy are not well-maintained. I'm > > trying to figure out if this would be an appreciated exercise from someone > > (me) who doesn't know all that much and would learn from doing it, and if > > so, what are priorities for things to port back as patches for 9legacy > > > In short: it's a bitch! > > I'm sure David will appreciate all the help he can get, but the code > divergences will not be easy to tame. > > I don't like Git, but I also don't think the Plan 9 "dump" is adequate > to the task of tracking "branches" as would apply in this complex > case. > > Perhaps I can recommend isolating bug fixes as distinct from adding > features, but where does one draw the line? I'm not even sure where or how to start. dp9ik seems important if 9legacy doesn't already have something similar. that's probably both a bug fix and feature... and quite a task! but I would be interested in porting patches back to learn more > > Best of luck, if you intend to proceed. > > Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-Mf5ec8c7af40a876a0e7a3595 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 3:47 ` Eli Cohen @ 2021-02-10 4:14 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-10 7:24 ` Skip Tavakkolian 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-10 4:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 2/10/21, Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'm not even sure where or how to start. dp9ik seems important if > 9legacy doesn't already have something similar. that's probably both a > bug fix and feature... and quite a task! but I would be interested in > porting patches back to learn more > I guess you picked a good one (I looked into that particular security aspect myself, not entirely surprisingly) for a practice run. It's perhaps not the toughest choice, but it's not easy. It does seem to be fairly contained, so you may get away with ring-fencing the changes and actually getting the outcome approved. I would aim at a well documented plan of attack, maybe the community (this community) would be willing, certainly able, to help. Github, perhaps? Lucio. PS: You don't have to succeed immediately, real progress moves slowly and in unpredictable ways. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M520a382c661108353f31e594 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 3:47 ` Eli Cohen 2021-02-10 4:14 ` Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-10 7:24 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2021-02-10 16:15 ` ori 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2021-02-10 7:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1609 bytes --] no slight to the inventor of dp9ik, but has it been verified? On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:48 PM Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:39 PM Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 2/10/21, Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I noticed the patches from 9front to 9legacy are not well-maintained. > I'm > > > trying to figure out if this would be an appreciated exercise from > someone > > > (me) who doesn't know all that much and would learn from doing it, and > if > > > so, what are priorities for things to port back as patches for 9legacy > > > > > In short: it's a bitch! > > > > I'm sure David will appreciate all the help he can get, but the code > > divergences will not be easy to tame. > > > > I don't like Git, but I also don't think the Plan 9 "dump" is adequate > > to the task of tracking "branches" as would apply in this complex > > case. > > > > Perhaps I can recommend isolating bug fixes as distinct from adding > > features, but where does one draw the line? > > I'm not even sure where or how to start. dp9ik seems important if > 9legacy doesn't already have something similar. that's probably both a > bug fix and feature... and quite a task! but I would be interested in > porting patches back to learn more > > > > > Best of luck, if you intend to proceed. > > > > Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M4857c66d4e13e2d25ae337e0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3184 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 7:24 ` Skip Tavakkolian @ 2021-02-10 16:15 ` ori 2021-02-10 21:50 ` Eli Cohen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: ori @ 2021-02-10 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Quoth Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com>: > no slight to the inventor of dp9ik, but has it been verified? It's using the SPAKE2 algorithm, which is fairly well analyzed. Here are a few starting points to read about it: https://www.lothar.com/blog/54-spake2-random-elements/ https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-cfrg-spake2-12 https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/104/slides/slides-104-cfrg-pake-selection-01.pdf https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/curves/2015/000424.html While code reviews and audits are definitely welcome, it's a significant step forward over current p9sk1 DES keys that can be brute forced in less than a day. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M1c4e6cbadd8fafc86e26cfc0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 16:15 ` ori @ 2021-02-10 21:50 ` Eli Cohen 2021-02-10 22:00 ` ori 2021-02-12 16:39 ` ori 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Eli Cohen @ 2021-02-10 21:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans well... I have a few questions already. I have heard that thorough scrutiny of dp9ik would be appreciated as Ori said, and hasn't really been done yet... beyond my capabilities, though. I have explored dp9ik a little bit, another document about it is this writeup: http://felloff.net/usr/cinap_lenrek/newticket.txt a preliminary rough draft roadmap: figure out better how dp9ik is done on 9front (I've looked at this a bit, the key exchange is used for chacha20-poly1305 PSK TLS, then a lot is rc-based, rconnect with tlsclient...) look at how that's different than 9legacy (libsec additions, etc. figure out which parts should be different patches) then make a better roadmap another question already, though a bit early for it... how are 9legacy patches generated? on 9front as far as I know everything is in mercurial and people use hg diff ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M48beeaa7508450841756161d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 21:50 ` Eli Cohen @ 2021-02-10 22:00 ` ori 2021-02-10 22:26 ` David du Colombier 2021-02-12 16:39 ` ori 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: ori @ 2021-02-10 22:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Quoth Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com>: > > another question already, though a bit early for it... how are 9legacy > patches generated? on 9front as far as I know everything is in > mercurial and people use hg diff patch/create, as far as I know. The question is whether there is anyone willing or able to apply the patch. I tried sending some in at one point, and got silence. Note that the last time I looked on 9legacy, '9fs sources' still pointed to the bell labs site, so you'd have to patch 9fs to use the 9p.io mirror if you want to submit a patch. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-Mb7aa7cc3a41fb04325295ab3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 22:00 ` ori @ 2021-02-10 22:26 ` David du Colombier 2021-02-11 5:49 ` ori 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: David du Colombier @ 2021-02-10 22:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > > another question already, though a bit early for it... how are 9legacy > > patches generated? on 9front as far as I know everything is in > > mercurial and people use hg diff 9legacy patches are available as "unified diff" format and are generated with "ape/diff -Nru". I tend to prefer ape/diff to patch/create because it includes everything in a single file and can handle file deletions. It's also easier to read without using external tools. > The question is whether there is anyone willing or able to > apply the patch. I tried sending some in at one point, and > got silence. Feel free to ping me again if I missed something you sent me. > Note that the last time I looked on 9legacy, '9fs sources' > still pointed to the bell labs site, so you'd have to patch > 9fs to use the 9p.io mirror if you want to submit a patch. 9legacy includes a patch to 9fs which replaces plan9.bell-labs.com by 9p.io. -- David du Colombier ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M17fc3b08b511544e972abaf0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 22:26 ` David du Colombier @ 2021-02-11 5:49 ` ori 2021-02-11 7:24 ` Lucio De Re ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: ori @ 2021-02-11 5:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>: > 9legacy patches are available as "unified diff" format and > are generated with "ape/diff -Nru". Alright, noted for the future. > Feel free to ping me again if I missed something you sent me. When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple of utilities and changes: /n/sources/patch/walk /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split I also noticed that the changes that lufia had done on the github repo have largely gone uncommented: https://github.com/0intro/plan9-contrib/pulls https://github.com/lufia/plan9 > 9legacy includes a patch to 9fs which replaces plan9.bell-labs.com > by 9p.io. > Ah, great -- it's been a while since I tried it. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M8cd200308a5139a6e39d7edc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-11 5:49 ` ori @ 2021-02-11 7:24 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-11 8:57 ` Jens Staal 2021-02-11 10:31 ` hiro 2021-02-11 8:40 ` David du Colombier 2021-02-22 18:44 ` David du Colombier 2 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-11 7:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 2/11/21, ori@eigenstate.org <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote: > Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>: >> 9legacy patches are available as "unified diff" format and >> are generated with "ape/diff -Nru". > > Alright, noted for the future. > Here's what I' ve been thinking about that may be worth sharing: I'd like to have working 9legacy, 9pi (which I'd like to call 9muller, frankly, if only for clarity, but also because it is what I run on my i386 workstation, not yet the network server), 9atom and last, just to emphasise it is NOT least, 9front. Each of those have useful differences and even though I never really make any progress, I like to think that there is "One plan 9" struggling to be born from these variations. So my question is this: what would be an optimal arrangement to have all of these variation publicly available and reasonably maintained? At worst, as downloadable VM images, at best along the lines of the Go builders, where changes can be tentatively applied and tested? Would the Plan 9 Foundation be interested in proposing to this community that such a concept be pursued and properly maintained and laying down a project path to achieve this objective? Could there be much smaller portions of such an objective that could be progressively achieved in a distributed, centrally managed manner? Lucio ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M24ed2dc8a43507f7fb4165e5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-11 7:24 ` Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-11 8:57 ` Jens Staal 2021-02-11 10:31 ` hiro 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Jens Staal @ 2021-02-11 8:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 09:24:38AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: > On 2/11/21, ori@eigenstate.org <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote: > > Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>: > >> 9legacy patches are available as "unified diff" format and > >> are generated with "ape/diff -Nru". > > > > Alright, noted for the future. > > > > Here's what I' ve been thinking about that may be worth sharing: I'd > like to have working 9legacy, 9pi (which I'd like to call 9muller, > frankly, if only for clarity, but also because it is what I run on my > i386 workstation, not yet the network server), 9atom and last, just to > emphasise it is NOT least, 9front. Each of those have useful > differences and even though I never really make any progress, I like > to think that there is "One plan 9" struggling to be born from these > variations. > That would be great. One could even think of a model where there is a common repository for the "common base" (sort of like illumos) and that the current OSes remain with their own identities as "distros" or "spins" from that common base. It is not bad per se that people have differing visions and/or community cultures, and that these can be cultivated in different ways. With a common base/upstream, improvements to one could easily also be implemented by the others. Personally I would love to see a "spin" that takes Sigrid's 9front rio modifications for workspaces and theming and make them default. For me that has become a huge improvement in the UI of Plan9. Hopefully that work will continue and improve further. > Would the Plan 9 Foundation be interested in proposing to this > community that such a concept be pursued and properly maintained and > laying down a project path to achieve this objective? Could there be > much smaller portions of such an objective that could be progressively > achieved in a distributed, centrally managed manner? > Hosting the common base at the foundation would be logical, I think. > Lucio ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M172301466cce16502dcd2993 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-11 7:24 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-11 8:57 ` Jens Staal @ 2021-02-11 10:31 ` hiro 2021-02-11 11:57 ` Lucio De Re 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2021-02-11 10:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I like > to think that there is "One plan 9" struggling to be born from these > variations. it there's any "One plan 9" it's clearly called golang. cause all added syscalls to any of the distributions came from there... if that incident had not happened i'd have now claimed: the one good thing that comes out of multiple competing plan9 distributions is that there's a stronger urge to stay backwards compatible, as that will provide interoperability between all competitors in the long run. gladly the will to sync crucial changes regardless is strong enough, so i guess it doesn't matter. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M74bf58704b7b5859aee8024a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-11 10:31 ` hiro @ 2021-02-11 11:57 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-11 13:07 ` hiro 2021-02-11 17:41 ` pouya+lists.9fans 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-11 11:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 2/11/21, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote: >> I like >> to think that there is "One plan 9" struggling to be born from these >> variations. > > it there's any "One plan 9" it's clearly called golang. cause all > added syscalls to any of the distributions came from there... > Well, I'd love to catch up on how NetBSD coped with the Golang demands, their Foundation was, to the best of my knowledge, also run by "purists". That said, I presume the new syscalls could probably be tucked in the Go runtime. Or is it essential to match everything that Linux does? > if that incident had not happened i'd have now claimed: the one good > thing that comes out of multiple competing plan9 distributions is that > there's a stronger urge to stay backwards compatible, as that will > provide interoperability between all competitors in the long run. > I don't see why that should not remain an objective, although not an exclusive one. What I believe is that shrinking the base system is preferable to expanding it. I'm willing to sacrifice performance for simplicity, no matter what the public gets sold. > gladly the will to sync crucial changes regardless is strong enough, > so i guess it doesn't matter. > It does matter. The need to incorporate many bug fixes from Cinap has been obvious for a long time. But drawing the line between bug fixes and incompatible changes is a responsibility that needs community agreement, even when guided by a "foundation". I think what has kept Plan 9 ticking for the past 25 years or more, is that this community is small enough to keep connected to the "product" in its more abstract sense. Whatever that sense is, it is what we share and, presumably, appreciate, so we ought to preserve it, neh? Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M16387b553d4266e8a19cbce7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-11 11:57 ` Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-11 13:07 ` hiro 2021-02-11 17:41 ` pouya+lists.9fans 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2021-02-11 13:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans sometimes i prefer technical decisions to be taken by the people doing the work and not the community (e.g. not me). community can be nice in other situations, and we have several of those ready anyway, but normally people that make nothing happen should not hold special powers in any way. i might add my opinion some time cause i'm just so interested, but i'm not gonna be mad if everybody is just gonna ignore it based on my incompetence :) what kept plan 9 ticking is the relatively simple system design that actual living beings are able to read and understand. especially in contrast to the unix based systems out there this is obvious. if you have a problem with any of the design improvements that cinap has done to plan9 that created any kind of incompatibility please tell us more details so we can look into it or at least explain. On 2/11/21, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2/11/21, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote: >>> I like >>> to think that there is "One plan 9" struggling to be born from these >>> variations. >> >> it there's any "One plan 9" it's clearly called golang. cause all >> added syscalls to any of the distributions came from there... >> > Well, I'd love to catch up on how NetBSD coped with the Golang > demands, their Foundation was, to the best of my knowledge, also run > by "purists". That said, I presume the new syscalls could probably be > tucked in the Go runtime. Or is it essential to match everything that > Linux does? > >> if that incident had not happened i'd have now claimed: the one good >> thing that comes out of multiple competing plan9 distributions is that >> there's a stronger urge to stay backwards compatible, as that will >> provide interoperability between all competitors in the long run. >> > I don't see why that should not remain an objective, although not an > exclusive one. What I believe is that shrinking the base system is > preferable to expanding it. I'm willing to sacrifice performance for > simplicity, no matter what the public gets sold. > >> gladly the will to sync crucial changes regardless is strong enough, >> so i guess it doesn't matter. >> > It does matter. The need to incorporate many bug fixes from Cinap has > been obvious for a long time. But drawing the line between bug fixes > and incompatible changes is a responsibility that needs community > agreement, even when guided by a "foundation". > > I think what has kept Plan 9 ticking for the past 25 years or more, is > that this community is small enough to keep connected to the "product" > in its more abstract sense. Whatever that sense is, it is what we > share and, presumably, appreciate, so we ought to preserve it, neh? > > Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M204fbe4b6b220e17613e1c92 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-11 11:57 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-11 13:07 ` hiro @ 2021-02-11 17:41 ` pouya+lists.9fans 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: pouya+lists.9fans @ 2021-02-11 17:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [lucio.dere@gmail.com] > I think what has kept Plan 9 ticking for the past 25 years or more, is > that this community is small enough to keep connected to the "product" > in its more abstract sense. Whatever that sense is, it is what we > share and, presumably, appreciate, so we ought to preserve it, neh? Plan 9 is one of my few anchors in this growth-crazy world, and the size and quality of the team that built it, and the community that formed around it, have a lot to do with it I think. Growth beyond the point of sustainability can be very corruptive. Working with Plan 9 for me is like travelling back to a time when things made sense and the future was full of exciting possibilities. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M75f3d3976db5cc17c420e7b5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-11 5:49 ` ori 2021-02-11 7:24 ` Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-11 8:40 ` David du Colombier 2021-02-12 1:21 ` ori 2021-02-22 18:44 ` David du Colombier 2 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: David du Colombier @ 2021-02-11 8:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple > of utilities and changes: > > /n/sources/patch/walk > /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split Thanks. I'll review these changes and eventually include them into 9legacy. > I also noticed that the changes that lufia had done on > the github repo have largely gone uncommented: > > https://github.com/0intro/plan9-contrib/pulls > https://github.com/lufia/plan9 Lufia did a lot of interesting stuff on APE. I've not merged them yet because I wasn't sure how it fits with changes other people have done on APE. -- David du Colombier ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-Ma5af7fc8fa0904f625dc6863 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-11 8:40 ` David du Colombier @ 2021-02-12 1:21 ` ori 2021-02-12 2:55 ` Skip Tavakkolian 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: ori @ 2021-02-12 1:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>: > > When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple > > of utilities and changes: > > > > /n/sources/patch/walk > > /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split > > Thanks. I'll review these changes and eventually include > them into 9legacy. Thanks. Feel free to ask questions (or reject them). > Lufia did a lot of interesting stuff on APE. I've not merged > them yet because I wasn't sure how it fits with changes other > people have done on APE. Sure -- but some of them recently turned 2 years old, which I'd personally find rather discouraging. This is why I was suggesting that echoline sort out the way to get changes committed in advance, and if the people along that way wanted them -- otherwise, there seems a good chance that the changes would get stuck in limbo. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M706cfce195c3d1b65097441d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-12 1:21 ` ori @ 2021-02-12 2:55 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2021-02-12 17:42 ` ori 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2021-02-12 2:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1192 bytes --] I think the question of whether a patch is applied to the repo or kept as an optional patch should be: does it benefit everyone without breaking anything, fixes a bug, or enhances security? I use 9p.io as a reference for my setup. I appreciate that David has been judicious with the application of patches to the mainline. On Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:22 PM <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote: > Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>: > > Lufia did a lot of interesting stuff on APE. I've not merged > > them yet because I wasn't sure how it fits with changes other > > people have done on APE. > > Sure -- but some of them recently turned 2 years old, > which I'd personally find rather discouraging. > > This is why I was suggesting that echoline sort out > the way to get changes committed in advance, and if > the people along that way wanted them -- otherwise, > there seems a good chance that the changes would get > stuck in limbo. > > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M364edb5ded43a51f4f99ff66 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2298 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-12 2:55 ` Skip Tavakkolian @ 2021-02-12 17:42 ` ori 2021-02-12 17:48 ` sirjofri 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: ori @ 2021-02-12 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Quoth Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com>: > I think the question of whether a patch is applied to the repo or > kept as an optional patch should be: does it benefit everyone > without breaking anything, fixes a bug, or enhances security? I > use 9p.io as a reference for my setup. I appreciate that David > has been judicious with the application of patches to the > mainline. "no" is a fine answer; my complaint is that nobody has said it. Lufia's patch is over 2 years old. Echoline's suggestion to port dp9ik has lead to a valid question on what sort of review dp9ik has had, and then silence. What review would be needed? Who would do it? Would 9legacy prefer to leave passwords brute forcable by default? Any decision would be fine, but from my reading this thread, I don't see one. Instead, there was a long thread about some sort of unified plan 9, without anyone mentioning what they want to unify -- or even discussing differences. No code was mentioned by name, and none appears to be on the way. (As far as I'm aware, I've already cherry picked most relevant plan9port and 9legacy bugfixes into 9front. Are there any that I missed?) ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M6d60ab3efd4369aa75e3598c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-12 17:42 ` ori @ 2021-02-12 17:48 ` sirjofri 2021-02-12 18:09 ` ori 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: sirjofri @ 2021-02-12 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans In my opinion we need some uniform core to maintain some kind of interoperability between different distributions. Authentication and encryption should be one of this core components. And ori (and other 9front devs) should get a decision, or at least an answer that can result in a proper discussion, at least. sirjofri ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-Me1d79cfa6e177ee090332dbb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-12 17:48 ` sirjofri @ 2021-02-12 18:09 ` ori 2021-02-12 20:46 ` Lucio De Re 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: ori @ 2021-02-12 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Quoth sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de>: > > And ori (and other 9front devs) should get a decision, or at least an > answer that can result in a proper discussion, at least. Note: I'm not volunteering to do the work. I currently don't even have any 9legacy systems. The mix of derailing the thread, and the lack of answer for echoline, who *was* offering to do the work, but got no answer on whether there's interest, just rubbed me the wrong way. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-Mc5a42587594a0e503bbdb632 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-12 18:09 ` ori @ 2021-02-12 20:46 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-12 23:54 ` Anthony Martin 2021-02-13 13:34 ` hiro 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-12 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 2/12/21, ori@eigenstate.org <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote: > > The mix of derailing the thread, and the lack of > answer for echoline, who *was* offering to do the > work, but got no answer on whether there's interest, > just rubbed me the wrong way. > It wasn't meant to derail the thread, it was meant to lay down some rules so taking part would not become a competition leading to acrimony. You seem to have a knack for calling a spade a spade and that can be an invaluable contribution, but the fact that we have different objectives needs to be addressed at a philosophical level. How else are we going to select from conflicting alternatives? The "One plan 9" I mentioned would need to shrink rather than grow, on the whole, to retain compatibility. Who is going to offer up anything, if there is no known criterion by which compatibility can be measured and occasionally sacrificed? Ori, I'm sure you enjoy the fruit of your developments and I have no doubt at all that others - me and git9 would be an example - would benefit from your work. But consider my quandary: I have a Plan 9 network on which I have been unable to deploy a version of SSH that makes it possible to interoperate with Git on my work Linux systems of various kinds. My colleagues frown on anything Plan 9 I contribute and I cannot circumvent the development and production Linux systems that we are all familiar with. For my purposes, SSH with capabilities like in 9front needs to run on traditional Plan 9, because my 9front deployment doesn't play well on the equipment I use and much of my Plan 9 commitments date to before 9front was a "thing". I can perpetuate my Plan 9 problem and actually solve my work problems using Linux and, occasionally, NetBSD. I don't want to, though, nor do I want to spend more time on work others have already done. Is that an unreasonable desire? Should I simply feel privileged that I have been able to play with a pointless Plan 9 network, throw away twenty-odd years of Plan 9 experience and simply cross over to the Dark Side, instead, as my colleagues would prefer me to do? Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M9e1e4e0aacdd97e5285812d9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-12 20:46 ` Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-12 23:54 ` Anthony Martin 2021-02-13 13:34 ` hiro 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Anthony Martin @ 2021-02-12 23:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> once said: > the fact that we have different objectives needs to be addressed at a > philosophical level. How else are we going to select from conflicting > alternatives? Let a hundred flowers blossom. Anthony ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M2baac72ee9a9151a70895833 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-12 20:46 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-12 23:54 ` Anthony Martin @ 2021-02-13 13:34 ` hiro 2021-02-13 14:05 ` Lucio De Re 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2021-02-13 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > You seem to have a knack for calling a spade a spade and that can be > an invaluable contribution are you implying here that by your doing the opposite you could also be invaluably contributing something? not sure i see the alternative you would like to propose for ori_b. > How else > are we going to select from conflicting alternatives? seems like you are already busy selecting, so perhaps we'll just wait and see how it turns out, and if it leads nowhere somebody else will have a go at it. i like trial & error. if there's nothing more informed to be done. > The "One plan 9" I mentioned would need to shrink rather than grow how about you help us shrink it. we already want to remove fossil/venti and acme could be next. next up: python & hg (bec. of ori's actual native git implementation). i don't think anybody here would oppose the goal of minimalism. but somebody has to do the work. we need really not philosophize if no software is even discussed. > Who is going to offer up anything, > if there is no known criterion by which compatibility can be measured > and occasionally sacrificed? are you trying to convert us into a standards body? you doubting our common sense that much? cinap has been acting as an informal gatekeeper for a long time. we have no written rules, but we all seem to value plan9 for the same reasons, so i don't see much possible conflict, it's rather education and experience, not rules that are lacking. a lot of us care to learn more about the how's and why's of the conventions in plan9 that manage to make a very minimal set of machinery so much more effective than the other unix-based systems out there. that wish is stronger than any bureaucracy that you seem to be proposing here. > Ori, I'm sure you enjoy the fruit of your developments and I have no > doubt at all that others - me and git9 would be an example - would > benefit from your work. But consider my quandary: I have a Plan 9 > network on which I have been unable to deploy a version of SSH that > makes it possible to interoperate with Git on my work Linux systems of > various kinds. do you have any details about that? are your linux systems all outdated for some reason that is outside of your control? our ssh client is quite well supported. perhaps make a new thread on 9front ml and include a proper bugreport, if there's something wrong we don't know about i'm sure you can be helped. > My colleagues frown on anything Plan 9 I contribute and I cannot > circumvent the development and production Linux systems that we are > all familiar with. For my purposes, SSH with capabilities like in > 9front needs to run on traditional Plan 9, because my 9front > deployment doesn't play well on the equipment I use and much of my > Plan 9 commitments date to before 9front was a "thing". i do not understand, your colleagues made you stop using plan 9? i don't really know what the conflict is. i'm afraid we cannot help you with your coworkers. > I can perpetuate my Plan 9 problem and actually solve my work problems > using Linux and, occasionally, NetBSD. I don't want to, though, nor do > I want to spend more time on work others have already done. what *do* you want to work on? > Is that an unreasonable desire? Should I simply feel privileged that I > have been able to play with a pointless Plan 9 network, throw away > twenty-odd years of Plan 9 experience and simply cross over to the > Dark Side, instead, as my colleagues would prefer me to do? i'm sure many people here would like to learn from your 20 years of plan 9 experience. i see no problem in being part of multiple communities at the same time. i don't tell my more practically minded friends about computers either. why is that a problem? what is the dark side? for me the borders between plan9 and non-plan9 has been getting less tight, bec. with more experience i understand how to translate mindsets, or even code, from one system to the other without anybody in my real life ever accusing me of having watched too many ed wood movies. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M47852274d5cd7539165ccfd4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-13 13:34 ` hiro @ 2021-02-13 14:05 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-13 15:30 ` hiro 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-13 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 2/13/21, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote: > > what is the dark side? for me the borders between plan9 and non-plan9 > has been getting less tight, bec. with more experience i understand > how to translate mindsets, or even code, from one system to the other > without anybody in my real life ever accusing me of having watched too > many ed wood movies. > I have no idea how to counter the belligerence with which more conservative suggestions than accepting 9front as the torch-bearer for the Plan 9 religion are addressed on this forum. Thankfully, it doesn't actually matter that I can't. But the misunderstanding of my use of "dark side" can't go unchallenged. The Dark Side is what drives Linux development, the need to discover new ways in which to make Linux and Gnu software larger and larger, irrespective of whether that leads to greater functionality or merely cosmetic, irrelevant decorations. That's all that I believe needs saying, the details will make for interesting archeology, a few hundred years, if that many, from now. Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M70d87a285d77aa26b3e82202 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-13 14:05 ` Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-13 15:30 ` hiro 0 siblings, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2021-02-13 15:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans perceived belligerence is generally best countered by empathy. fault-tolerant parsing of people's intentions and a will for de-escalation can help concentrate on the common vision. if there is any. perhaps you already know everything that linux does wrong, which plan9 supposedly did right ever since it's inception. personally i am still learning more in that regard, but it becomes easier if you're part of the inception and if people share ideas, practical experiences, educate each other and not just doing archeology, staring in awe at artworks, or worse: actually using the system. i know you know i don't know what i'm saying here. i guess in contrast it's still relevant, so i'll leave it here regardless, without my usual minute proofreading On 2/13/21, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2/13/21, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> what is the dark side? for me the borders between plan9 and non-plan9 >> has been getting less tight, bec. with more experience i understand >> how to translate mindsets, or even code, from one system to the other >> without anybody in my real life ever accusing me of having watched too >> many ed wood movies. >> > I have no idea how to counter the belligerence with which more > conservative suggestions than accepting 9front as the torch-bearer for > the Plan 9 religion are addressed on this forum. Thankfully, it > doesn't actually matter that I can't. > > But the misunderstanding of my use of "dark side" can't go > unchallenged. The Dark Side is what drives Linux development, the need > to discover new ways in which to make Linux and Gnu software larger > and larger, irrespective of whether that leads to greater > functionality or merely cosmetic, irrelevant decorations. > > That's all that I believe needs saying, the details will make for > interesting archeology, a few hundred years, if that many, from now. > > Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-Mf638a482326b0954f6fc88fd Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-11 5:49 ` ori 2021-02-11 7:24 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-11 8:40 ` David du Colombier @ 2021-02-22 18:44 ` David du Colombier 2021-02-23 4:45 ` ori 2 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: David du Colombier @ 2021-02-22 18:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple > of utilities and changes: > > /n/sources/patch/walk > /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split These patches are now part of 9legacy. Thanks! -- David du Colombier ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M80caff72593484c960b034e6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-22 18:44 ` David du Colombier @ 2021-02-23 4:45 ` ori 2021-03-19 14:41 ` Eli Cohen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: ori @ 2021-02-23 4:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>: > > When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple > > of utilities and changes: > > > > /n/sources/patch/walk > > /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split > > These patches are now part of 9legacy. Thanks! > thank you :) let me know if there's anything else you're interested in cherry picking, happy to help prepare patches. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M324f5f9497b4ccf1556fa9f2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-23 4:45 ` ori @ 2021-03-19 14:41 ` Eli Cohen 2021-03-21 0:01 ` kokamoto 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Eli Cohen @ 2021-03-19 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans hey everyone, first of all this has turned out to be somewhat difficult! I have also been delayed from looking at it very much by other things going on. all I have done so far is look a bit at tlsclient. it seemed like once that supports dp9ik the rest is just simple rc scripts. another note... I have heard someone (moody?) has ported dp9ik tlsclient to unix :) - Eli On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 8:47 PM <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote: > > Quoth David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com>: > > > When I got git9 working on 9legacy, I backported a couple > > > of utilities and changes: > > > > > > /n/sources/patch/walk > > > /n/sources/patch/rc-line-split > > > > These patches are now part of 9legacy. Thanks! > > > > thank you :) > > let me know if there's anything else you're interested > in cherry picking, happy to help prepare patches. > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M31a370987e95417ff7bd3705 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-03-19 14:41 ` Eli Cohen @ 2021-03-21 0:01 ` kokamoto 2021-03-21 8:33 ` David du Colombier 2021-03-21 13:02 ` Ethan Gardener 0 siblings, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: kokamoto @ 2021-03-21 0:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > hey everyone, > > first of all this has turned out to be somewhat difficult! I have also > been delayed from looking at it very much by other things going on. > > all I have done so far is look a bit at tlsclient. it seemed like once > that supports dp9ik the rest is just simple rc scripts. > > another note... I have heard someone (moody?) has ported dp9ik > tlsclient to unix :) > > - Eli Hi, Eli. If you'd get success to port 9front's tlsclient, 9legacy has no gui terminal for amd64, even on vesa mode, then next is to port realemu etc... I like Plan9 by the reason why it's minimulist and file oriented nature, which is maintained and developped further by 9front. I don't know what was occured when 9front was forked, and what kind of antimode against 9front was made from that time... However I admire cinap who keeps 9front usable for a long time. I think he payed much effors! I'd like to ask all the Plan9 developpers to unite the Plan9 into 9front. Kenji PS. PLease don't panish me for my ... ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M66502582cd45239c96068a7a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-03-21 0:01 ` kokamoto @ 2021-03-21 8:33 ` David du Colombier 2021-03-21 9:46 ` hiro 2021-03-21 14:38 ` David du Colombier 2021-03-21 13:02 ` Ethan Gardener 1 sibling, 2 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: David du Colombier @ 2021-03-21 8:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > If you'd get success to port 9front's tlsclient, 9legacy has no gui terminal > for amd64, even on vesa mode, then next is to port realemu etc... 9legacy amd64 kernel supports graphical terminal, but it doesn't indeed support VESA yet. Implementing realemu into 9k would be nice. -- David du Colombier ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M32cf77e863c23c873ba344c8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-03-21 8:33 ` David du Colombier @ 2021-03-21 9:46 ` hiro 2021-03-21 11:07 ` David du Colombier 2021-03-21 14:38 ` David du Colombier 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2021-03-21 9:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans 9k? ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M59cbe2ce8dcc00cab709b789 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-03-21 9:46 ` hiro @ 2021-03-21 11:07 ` David du Colombier 0 siblings, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: David du Colombier @ 2021-03-21 11:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > 9k? 9k is the original 64-bit Plan 9 kernel written by Jim McKie at Bell Labs. It has been developed at Bell Labs (with external contributions) from 2005 to 2013 approximately, and has been part of 9legacy since 2016. -- David du Colombier ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-Md06fc52a8c1ac05d0ecaa57d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-03-21 8:33 ` David du Colombier 2021-03-21 9:46 ` hiro @ 2021-03-21 14:38 ` David du Colombier 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: David du Colombier @ 2021-03-21 14:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > > If you'd get success to port 9front's tlsclient, 9legacy has no gui terminal > > for amd64, even on vesa mode, then next is to port realemu etc... > > 9legacy amd64 kernel supports graphical terminal, but it doesn't > indeed support VESA yet. Implementing realemu into 9k would be nice. I've just checked and 9legacy already supports VESA graphics on amd64, using aux/realemu (started automatically when monitor=vesa). -- David du Colombier ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-Mb4f36e5dd32170e2b1dda90b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-03-21 0:01 ` kokamoto 2021-03-21 8:33 ` David du Colombier @ 2021-03-21 13:02 ` Ethan Gardener 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: Ethan Gardener @ 2021-03-21 13:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Sun, Mar 21, 2021, at 12:01 AM, kokamoto@hera.eonet.ne.jp wrote: > > I don't know what was occured when 9front was forked, and what kind > of antimode against 9front was made from that time... > However I admire cinap who keeps 9front usable for a long time. > I think he payed much effors! > In the beginning, we were rebels. :) I didn't see what was wrong with that, but cinap & the others considered, "What do we really want?" and softened their attitude. On the other side there was a lot of pride and initially some confusion over 9front's licensing. The confusion was slowly cleared up and I guess the sad changes at Bell Labs had an impact too, but some still have a desire to use the original software. (I can understand that.) 9legacy provides for them by allowing them to choose which patches they apply, while 9front have a system they can be proud of. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M46a44416aed63b5903351399 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 21:50 ` Eli Cohen 2021-02-10 22:00 ` ori @ 2021-02-12 16:39 ` ori 1 sibling, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: ori @ 2021-02-12 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Quoth Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com>: > well... I have a few questions already. I have heard that thorough > scrutiny of dp9ik would be appreciated as Ori said, and hasn't really > been done yet. I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate characterization of what I said. The protocol is still following p9sk1, but with an initial secret derived using a well understood password authenticated key exchange protocol (SPAKE2), and a complete replacement of DES with a modern AEAD cipher (chacha20-poly1305). More scrutiny is *always* welcome, but the algorithm used is well scrutinized outside of plan9, and put together in fairly well understood ways. As far as what exists in p9sk1: It's effectively broken. It was possible to decrypt 56 bit keys on $250,000 hardware in less than a day, back in 1998. Over 20 years ago. By 2006, the cost dropped to $10,000 or so. Today, there are commercial services like crack.sh, which claim 25 seconds for typical unsalted password (that's us!), going up to 3.5 days for a full brute force run. With GPUs, it'll probably within reach of a bored teenager soon, if it isn't already. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-M9abccf1c9c1e189f3b8fbcd8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] patches from 9front 2021-02-10 3:27 [9fans] patches from 9front Eli Cohen 2021-02-10 3:37 ` Lucio De Re @ 2021-02-10 13:49 ` Steve Simon 2021-02-12 11:09 ` [9fans] 9pi provenance Richard Miller 1 sibling, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2021-02-10 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans FWIW I recently extracted ssh/sshfs/libsec from 9front and applied them to richard miller's raspberry pi image. This was not too hard but the changes did extend further than I first expected. I could braindump what I did and it would form (I think) a very useful diff. Richard millers image is not the same as 9legacy but it is probably very close. -Steve ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tc82939f1fda0e479-Mc8295ac9bec02a1f3b674a8d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* [9fans] 9pi provenance 2021-02-10 13:49 ` Steve Simon @ 2021-02-12 11:09 ` Richard Miller 2021-02-12 11:56 ` pouya+lists.9fans 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Richard Miller @ 2021-02-12 11:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans A couple of people have speculated about what exactly is in the 9pi SD card image. I should really publish a build script, but first I would have to write one. Informally, here's how the 9pi fossil contents were created, starting from the Bell Labs 4th Edition download CD image on 9p.io: 1. Installed the 4e filesystem onto a freshly formatted fossil image: echo uname upas :upas >>/srv/fscons disk/mkfs -a -s /n/cd /n/cd/dist/replica/plan9.proto | disk/mkext -ud /n/fossil 2. Copied all bcm kernel source from /n/sources/contrib/miller/9/bcm on 9p.io to /sys/src/9/bcm 3. Applied these updates from /n/sources/patch on 9p.io aes-ctr armv7-atomic exec-postnote-race exit-wrong-parent pread-offset ramfs-fixes segment-overlap ssh2-aes-ctr ssh2-dh-group14 usb-ether-lan78xx usbserial-ftdi-writelen 4. Applied these updates from http://9legacy.org/patch.html aux-wpa bcm-brian-man [followed by a small correction to /sys/man/3/spi] factotum-wpa fossil-wstat-qid libsec-tlshand12-fixes libsec-tlshand12-norc4 libsec-tlshand12-nossl3 libsec-x509-sha2 libsec-x509-sig tcp-close tls-devtls12 tls-tlshand12 usb-usbd-usb3 5. Copied the latest /sys/src/cmd/aux/wpa.c and /sys/src/cmd/auth/factotum/wpapsk.c from 9front.org, with a couple of small edits to remove 9front dependencies 6. Copied wifi firmware files from https://github.com/RPi-Distro/firmware-nonfree into /sys/lib/firmware brcmfmac43430-sdio.bin brcmfmac43430-sdio.txt brcmfmac43455-sdio.bin brcmfmac43455-sdio.clm_blob brcmfmac43455-sdio.txt 7. Adjusted a few config files and scripts for an easier first-time experience of Plan 9 on a Raspberry Pi /adm/timezone/local /adm/users /dist/replica/client/* /rc/bin/replica/pull /rc/bin/termrc /rc/bin/termrc.local /sys/lib/newuser /usr/glenda/bin/arm /usr/glenda/bin/rc/patch-apply /usr/glenda/bin/rc/riostart /usr/glenda/lib/profile 8. Built and installed libraries, commands and kernels for ARM, and removed the corresponding 386 binaries. Also ran mkindex in /sys/lib/man/lookman to update the database for the lookman command. 9. As an extra bonus, installed go1.14 (cross-compiled under go-linux-386), into /sys/lib/go1.14, along with its dependencies /rc/bin/git (a just-enough-git emulation from David du Columbier) and /sys/lib/tls/ca.pem which were needed for 'go get' (not sure if they still are). A new /lib/namespace.local with 'bind -a /sys/lib/go1.14/bin /bin' makes it simple to use 'go' as a command invoking the latest installed release. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T16171523f95d8656-M87e4ccc2f2348d4492e94048 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9pi provenance 2021-02-12 11:09 ` [9fans] 9pi provenance Richard Miller @ 2021-02-12 11:56 ` pouya+lists.9fans 2021-02-13 14:42 ` David du Colombier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: pouya+lists.9fans @ 2021-02-12 11:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [9fans@hamnavoe.com] > A couple of people have speculated about what exactly is in the 9pi SD card image. Many thanks for this image. I had also been wondering about it until I asked and you kindly answered. I'm very glad to have access to an image that is close to the 4th Edition, while also including carefully chosen patches and fixes/improvements I would have had to learn about and try (and possibly fail at) to ensure necessary functionality/usability. Coming back to Plan 9 and finding my bearings again (I had only known about the 4th and earlier editions) was much facilitated by the availability of the 9pi image. Perhaps someone will create a phylogenetic tree one day to help those like me re-orient themselves. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T16171523f95d8656-M2d1b882d9344173612834907 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9pi provenance 2021-02-12 11:56 ` pouya+lists.9fans @ 2021-02-13 14:42 ` David du Colombier 2021-02-13 14:47 ` Richard Miller 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: David du Colombier @ 2021-02-13 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I've just updated the aux-wpa and factotum-wpa patches, so step 5 shouldn't be required anymore. -- David du Colombier ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T16171523f95d8656-M933fca9a4dd0c0ca5b33c00f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9pi provenance 2021-02-13 14:42 ` David du Colombier @ 2021-02-13 14:47 ` Richard Miller 2021-02-13 14:53 ` David du Colombier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 43+ messages in thread From: Richard Miller @ 2021-02-13 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I've just updated the aux-wpa and factotum-wpa patches, > so step 5 shouldn't be required anymore. I'll test that soon, thanks. You could also make the correction to the man page for spi(3) in your patch bcm-brian-man: term% diff spi /n/atom/sys/man/3/spi 42,44c42,44 < and the Broadcom documentation specifies that the divisor < must be a power of 2. < The driver sets the divisor to the highest power of 2 that results --- > and the divisor must be a multiple of 2. > (The Broadcom documentation incorrectly says "power of 2".) > The driver sets the divisor to the highest multiple of 2 that results ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T16171523f95d8656-Mee0610abc64062a55ef7138a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] 9pi provenance 2021-02-13 14:47 ` Richard Miller @ 2021-02-13 14:53 ` David du Colombier 0 siblings, 0 replies; 43+ messages in thread From: David du Colombier @ 2021-02-13 14:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > You could also make the correction to the man page for spi(3) > in your patch bcm-brian-man: Fixed. Thanks! -- David du Colombier ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T16171523f95d8656-M7b9b416c78f22c97783d440e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 43+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2021-03-21 14:39 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 43+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2021-02-10 3:27 [9fans] patches from 9front Eli Cohen 2021-02-10 3:37 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-10 3:47 ` Eli Cohen 2021-02-10 4:14 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-10 7:24 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2021-02-10 16:15 ` ori 2021-02-10 21:50 ` Eli Cohen 2021-02-10 22:00 ` ori 2021-02-10 22:26 ` David du Colombier 2021-02-11 5:49 ` ori 2021-02-11 7:24 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-11 8:57 ` Jens Staal 2021-02-11 10:31 ` hiro 2021-02-11 11:57 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-11 13:07 ` hiro 2021-02-11 17:41 ` pouya+lists.9fans 2021-02-11 8:40 ` David du Colombier 2021-02-12 1:21 ` ori 2021-02-12 2:55 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2021-02-12 17:42 ` ori 2021-02-12 17:48 ` sirjofri 2021-02-12 18:09 ` ori 2021-02-12 20:46 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-12 23:54 ` Anthony Martin 2021-02-13 13:34 ` hiro 2021-02-13 14:05 ` Lucio De Re 2021-02-13 15:30 ` hiro 2021-02-22 18:44 ` David du Colombier 2021-02-23 4:45 ` ori 2021-03-19 14:41 ` Eli Cohen 2021-03-21 0:01 ` kokamoto 2021-03-21 8:33 ` David du Colombier 2021-03-21 9:46 ` hiro 2021-03-21 11:07 ` David du Colombier 2021-03-21 14:38 ` David du Colombier 2021-03-21 13:02 ` Ethan Gardener 2021-02-12 16:39 ` ori 2021-02-10 13:49 ` Steve Simon 2021-02-12 11:09 ` [9fans] 9pi provenance Richard Miller 2021-02-12 11:56 ` pouya+lists.9fans 2021-02-13 14:42 ` David du Colombier 2021-02-13 14:47 ` Richard Miller 2021-02-13 14:53 ` David du Colombier
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