From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Rui Carmo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:33:33 +0100 References: <212BE98CB8836987E226EAC522589E24@ewsd.inri.net> <884BE8B1-6929-4EC3-8B4D-CA9D3A24C266@gmail.com> <20181004085046.GA562@wopr> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <20181004085046.GA562@wopr> Message-Id: <74741C47-DF7F-4ED9-BEE6-837D48A1D2D7@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] plan9port : complete system : kernel : freebsd || linux ? Topicbox-Message-UUID: e710b282-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 I=E2=80=99ll bite, partially because I=E2=80=99m used to finding = resistance to exploratory ideas and learning paths, but mostly because I = find this kind of passionate, biased argument fascinating in tech = contexts... > On 4 Oct 2018, at 09:50, Kurt H Maier wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:50:35AM +0100, Rui Carmo wrote: >> I wouldn=E2=80=99t allow the passive-aggressive mood that surfaces = here from=20 >> time to time to turn me off the project.=20 >=20 > How about regular aggressive? Regular aggressive is taking things outside the realm of civilised = discourse, which is easy to do behind a keyboard, since being irate at = abstract things seems to be a slippery slope when removed from regular = human contact. However, it is not really acceptable, even with an attempt at (biased) = logic behind it. > Starting with "what project?" We're gonna slap down an alpine rootfs > and throw plan9port in /bin? Every single person on this list has = heard=20 > this exact "idea" with this exact lack of coherent expression at least=20= > twelve times before, probably from me. And the problem with doing that as a learning experience or for the = purpose of having better tooling is exactly=E2=80=A6 what? > The problem here is, in a record few number of posts, this person has > demonstrated a desire to mix two operationg systems while = demonstrating > fundamental misunderstandings of both of them -- then in some kind of > incompetence coup de gras, You meant =E2=80=9Cgrace=E2=80=9D (pronounced =E2=80=9Cgrasse=E2=80=9D), = not =E2=80=9Cgreasy=E2=80=9D, as in =E2=80=9Cfoie de gras=E2=80=9D. I = can understand that mastery of foreign languages might slip away under = the kind of blood pressure involved in your original reply. > managed to display an utter ignorance of > software development en route. A fine display of efficiency! most > Kickstarter projects, for instance, take years to demonstrate this > degree of overconfident ineptitude!=20 Ignorance takes many forms, such as lack of empathy (which can translate = in some contexts to =E2=80=9Cemotional ignorance=E2=80=9D). The attempt = at drawing parallels with Kickstarter (and the implicit bias against = experimentation and focusing only on failures) is amusing, but telling. > This sort of garbage post results in flames because it's > attention-seeking nonsense of the kind that generates many upvotes on > web forums, but no actual goddamn software.=20 This isn=E2=80=99t a web forum. It is a mailing-list, and as such (as I = would like to think) one of the last bastions of measured, rational = discourse on today=E2=80=99s Internet (ok, there was ample precedent for = flame wars in FidoNet, and we can gloss over the Usenet massacres, but I = think my point has a chance of getting across). You are not helping to = set a positive tone. >> That said, I=E2=80=99m fascinated by how often (and how quickly) some = threads=20 >> devolve into =E2=80=9Cthere is no point in doing that=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9Cwe don=E2=80=99t need=20 >> those modern contraptions=E2=80=9D arguments - reminds me a lot of = some of=20 >> the hard boiled academia types I used to work with back when VMS=20 >> started losing ground.=20 >=20 > You're not fascinated by shit; that's a medium- to low-quality > rhetorical dodge to throw mud at straw men. Stand by your opinions, > soldier -- you don't get bonus points for fake rumination. For the=20 > record, I think it's a fine idea, but this guy isn't the one who's=20 > gonna cross that finish line. Not this decade, at least, and I'd=20 > lay good money that it's not next decade, either. And yet, if no-one tries, nobody will ever deliver on it. > If nothing else, by the time you get a decent clip down this road, you > come to understand why the locals were laughing as you passed them. History is filled with people who were laughed at and changed (even if = in small ways) the world we live in. Being able to remember that is what = separates civilised cultures from biased, negative cultures that prey on = (and anticipate) failure for the sake of entertainment. Ancient Rome = comes to mind here. >> As much as some folk here are not exactly fond of various nuances of=20= >> modern tech (from Linux to X to git, etc.), I don=E2=80=99t think = there=E2=80=99s=20 >> any need for dissing personal efforts to use or improve various=20 >> aspects of Plan9 (including, horror of horrors, making the user land=20= >> a bit more modern and usable, or at least more accessible to=20 >> mainstream users). >=20 > Efforts? More hypothesizing? or is there some effort happening > somewhere here? Anyway, needlessly or not, I'm not dissing any = effort. > I'm dissing a person; 100% USDA Prime Ad Hominem, just ask Irving Copi=20= > if it ain't. =20 I parsed that as the Dept. of Agriculture until I realised there were no = animal husbandry puns to fit this situation. Regardless, I fully = expected a red =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s make Plan9 great=E2=80=9D again = baseball cap to emerge from this argument. Not being a political = partisan, I=E2=80=99m not going to go there, and point out that ad = hominem is always a way to introduce fallacy when genuine arguments = don=E2=80=99t hold water (or alcohol). > You know what the best part is? If I've got it all wrong, and this > person is indeed the Palamedes who will round out our unixy alphabet, > then I'll still get to use the software. So let's all hope I'm wrong! Let=E2=80=99s. > But I'm not. You might. Failure to recognise the odds that you are says a lot. >> I=E2=80=99m just going to fetch my vitriol wiper now. >=20 > Happy to help, Loved this bout of sparring. Reminds me of when I believed technology = alone could save the world, until I figured out that people (and how you = relate to them) is the whole point of doing most of what actually = matters. Cheers, R.=