I would like to know which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here= : = https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html) is suppor= ted by Plan 9. Is there any experience, especially with regard to other Thi= nkpad models?

9front even runs on the MNT = Reform, would the corresponding code be easily transferable to 9legacy?

Many thanks in advance!

Best regards,

alex

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or you could just run 9fr= ont?

Sent from= my iPhone

On Jan 24,= 2024, at 10:48 AM, alex-ml@posteo.de wrote:

Hello everyone,

I would like to know = which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here: https://plan9.io/wiki/pl= an9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html) is supported by Plan 9. Is there = any experience, especially with regard to other Thinkpad models?

9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the corres= ponding code be easily transferable to 9legacy?

Many thanks in advance!

Best regards= ,
alex

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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Wed, 24 Jan 2024 09:11:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17061112790.C3C0.64890@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: <17061112790.C3C0.64890@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: Don Bailey Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 12:11:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000873fa6060fb4279e Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: a252f3ae-badb-11ee-b27e-bad90ba13ba1 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNzI0ZGQzMTkwMzZmNTlkMy1NYmFiNmI4ZjZkZGFiYjM4ODY3Nzk3?= =?UTF-8?B?MzY0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mbab6b8f6ddabb38867797364:1:PyasdmlYAiI9w4pCvKoqqHjXueHQWMYKYjGhfdml1-A --000000000000873fa6060fb4279e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used to run plan9 exclusively (main OS) between around 2004-2010 and I had a lot of luck with Compaq and Thinkpad (Lenovo). In fact, I was considering doing this again... but... instead of buying a newer laptop and worrying about chip compatibility, I actually am considering buying an older compatible Thinkpad on Ebay. They are only a couple hundred dollars now and honestly are fine speed-wise to run something as low intensity as plan9. Something to consider. D On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 12:08=E2=80=AFPM wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I would like to know which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here: > https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html) is > supported by Plan 9. Is there any experience, especially with regard to > other Thinkpad models? > > 9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the corresponding code be easily > transferable to 9legacy? > > Many thanks in advance! > > Best regards, > alex > *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions > + participants > + delivery options > Permalink > > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T724dd319036f59d3-Mbab6b= 8f6ddabb38867797364 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000873fa6060fb4279e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I used to run plan9 exclusively (main OS) betw= een around 2004-2010 and I had a lot of luck with Compaq and Thinkpad (Leno= vo). In fact, I was considering doing this again... but... instead of buyin= g a newer laptop and worrying about chip compatibility, I actually am consi= dering buying an older compatible Thinkpad on Ebay. They are only a couple = hundred dollars now and honestly are fine speed-wise to run something as lo= w intensity as plan9. Something to consider.

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 12:08 PM <alex-ml@posteo.de> wrote:

Hello everyone,<= br />

I would like to know which hardware (apart= from the hardware listed here: https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9= /Supported_PC_hardware/index.html) is supported by Plan 9. Is there any= experience, especially with regard to other Thinkpad models?

9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the correspon= ding code be easily transferable to 9legacy?

Many thanks in advance!

Best regards,&n= bsp;

alex

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="moody@posixcafe.org"; helo=mail.posixcafe.org; client-ip=45.76.19.58 Received: from mail.posixcafe.org (mail.posixcafe.org [45.76.19.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 13:09:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from moody@posixcafe.org) Received: from [192.168.168.200] ( [207.45.82.38]) by mail.posixcafe.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 970a225d (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 12:09:22 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 12:09:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks Content-Language: en-US To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <17061112790.C3C0.64890@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: Jacob Moody In-Reply-To: <17061112790.C3C0.64890@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: ad368be8-bae3-11ee-9e39-a67788b3ba9d Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNzI0ZGQzMTkwMzZmNTlkMy1NNjY5MDhjZTVjMzgyZWY1OThlZDQ2?= =?UTF-8?B?NjQ1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M66908ce5c382ef598ed46645:1:biamt3ly6morZljaV8-LMD0ihSyGl8LUzHvTx34Nq-I On 1/24/24 09:47, alex-ml@posteo.de wrote: > Hello everyone, >=20 > I would like to know which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here:= https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html ) is supported by Plan 9. = Is there any experience, especially with regard to other Thinkpad models? >=20 > 9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the corresponding code be easil= y transferable to 9legacy? It is likely transferable but it will certainly not be easy, the code has d= rifted quite a bit at this point. I would suggest giving 9front a try first, but it sounds like you have alre= ady ruled that out. 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Wed, 24 Jan 2024 12:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2a02:1406:25:b8b3:55de:d3d2:57f1:67c7]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w8-20020ac254a8000000b0051019df73c6sm36238lfk.123.2024.01.24.12.28.54 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Jan 2024 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Michael Grunditz Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 21:28:43 +0100 Message-Id: <7FCFB39A-387F-437B-9CE1-874ABAC78C79@gmail.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21B91) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 367777a6-baf7-11ee-ab40-383a008c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNzI0ZGQzMTkwMzZmNTlkMy1NMzIwMGZjMmZkYzlhMzk2YjE0NGNl?= =?UTF-8?B?ZTQ3Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M3200fc2fdc9a396b144cee47:1:VicwuS0ZjoPvFIZpcquvlwg-x30AVtF1CXzbANBu5b4 I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that it= would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it is = more work than a recompile. Michael=20 > 24 jan. 2024 kl. 20:28 skrev Jacob Moody : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/24/24 09:47, alex-ml@posteo.de wrote: >> Hello everyone, >>=20 >> I would like to know which hardware (apart from the hardware listed here= : https://plan9.io/wiki/plan9/Supported_PC_hardware/index.html ) is supported by Plan 9.= Is there any experience, especially with regard to other Thinkpad models? >>=20 >> 9front even runs on the MNT Reform, would the corresponding code be easi= ly transferable to 9legacy? >=20 > It is likely transferable but it will certainly not be easy, the code has= drifted quite a bit at this point. > I would suggest giving 9front a try first, but it sounds like you have al= ready ruled that out. >=20 > Thanks, > moody >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T724dd319036f59d3-M3200f= c2fdc9a396b144cee47 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DD627F64 for ; 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="moody@posixcafe.org"; helo=mail.posixcafe.org; client-ip=45.76.19.58 Received: from mail.posixcafe.org (mail.posixcafe.org [45.76.19.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 15:48:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from moody@posixcafe.org) Received: from [192.168.168.200] ( [207.45.82.38]) by mail.posixcafe.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id c2baed81 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 14:48:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 14:48:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks Content-Language: en-US To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <7FCFB39A-387F-437B-9CE1-874ABAC78C79@gmail.com> From: Jacob Moody In-Reply-To: <7FCFB39A-387F-437B-9CE1-874ABAC78C79@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: f6d1c32e-baf9-11ee-983e-a7d2018c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNzI0ZGQzMTkwMzZmNTlkMy1NNDk1ZDUwN2U2MWY2NGE4ZDdmOTdi?= =?UTF-8?B?MDc0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M495d507e61f64a8d7f97b074:1:G-bGx6O8BeYE-MjuGdxQl4V3Gh3S4HSlakeXylOBOfQ On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: > I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that = it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it i= s more work than a recompile. >=20 > Michael=20 It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and linker wo= rking on 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in /sys/s= rc/cmd/cc. So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug the c= ompiler, the linker, and the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when I se= e it. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T724dd319036f59d3-M495d5= 07e61f64a8d7f97b074 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_06_12,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130C723DFC for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 00:28:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6032149C for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 18:28:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMd302c7e36ed5f10a57504bcd.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 362ACA22440; 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Feedback-ID: i12e44095:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id B9C66B6008F; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 18:28:02 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-119-ga8b98d1bd8-fm-20240108.001-ga8b98d1b MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <7FCFB39A-387F-437B-9CE1-874ABAC78C79@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 23:27:45 +0900 From: vic.thacker@fastmail.fm To: "leimy2k via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3d851cb0-bb10-11ee-92c4-bd91ff8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZDMwMmM3ZTM2ZWQ1ZjEwYTU3NTA0?= =?UTF-8?B?YmNkPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Md302c7e36ed5f10a57504bcd:1:BjyXVbS6obp6NGA3xzFXiawMYV-dQk2qW3vjwCM1doY Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware= of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of distrib= uted computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is undeniable. = In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 Release 5 b= eckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance our belove= d system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 Release 5,= focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for innovation, and = the practical considerations that align with our shared passions and expert= ise. The Need for Modernization Technological Evolution:=20 We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last i= teration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's e= ssential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advancement= s in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is cru= cial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern tech= toolkit. Security Enhancements:=20 In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a reali= ty we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include cuttin= g-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work we = do from emerging cyber risks. Hardware Compatibility:=20 The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. U= pdating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its= usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, somet= hing we, as 9fans, have always embraced. Fostering Innovation Research and Education:=20 Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed computing = has always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release= would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for c= ontinued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can ac= hieve with Plan 9. Community Engagement: A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an op= portunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a richer= ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5 c= ould be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and= innovations. Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential:=20 Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities= , especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distribute= d systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and forward-t= hinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. Practical Considerations Resource Allocation:=20 We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing P= lan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective knowled= ge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new partners= hips or funding avenues. Backward Compatibility: Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and = ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while char= ting a course for its future. Documentation and Support:=20 Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new = release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will a= id in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we c= an all be proud of. Conclusion The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it=E2= =80=99s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at= the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards en= suring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the mod= ern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of researc= h, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, and= the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 while = shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the next= chapter in the Plan 9 story. Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. --vic On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that= it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it = is more work than a recompile. >>=20 >> Michael=20 >=20 > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and > linker working on > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in > /sys/src/cmd/cc. > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug > the compiler, the linker, and > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". 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From: noam@pixelhero.dev In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 63a73c1c-bb14-11ee-a938-38f1018c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZmJmZGUyMWRkMTRjYjE4Yjk1NDgx?= =?UTF-8?B?MDEzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: [9fans] Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mfbfde21dd14cb18b95481013:1:yS8rts_bBI0_gk-zR9WtVH3bBV_IySiEb9DD4yTdf5c Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: > [redacted for sanity] This is AI-generated spam, right? :P - Noam Preil ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mfbfde= 21dd14cb18b95481013 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACDDD2671C for ; 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Wed, 24 Jan 2024 16:02:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Lucas Francesco Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 21:01:51 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: fee663e2-bb14-11ee-99f9-1d5a028c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NYjI3MDQyYWVlYTQwN2ZhMDczZmM3?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmUyPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mb27042aeea407fa073fc7fe2:1:OaHd5UWg21ox8e8nydvy-FXPNr6XGB8sugV01j_Uazk Yeah, can we keep chatgpt generated wall of texts outside of the 9fans mailing list ? 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In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 20:01:25 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000b519ee060fbab8cb Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 4e7ddd1a-bb1d-11ee-9175-a410856a871e Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZmQ2ZTZlMGFhNzlhMzMxNGJhMGNh?= =?UTF-8?B?YWY2Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mfd6e6e0aa79a3314ba0caaf6:1:DZ4NdHuAyEdpizbO2neGc818pYrjnSS6yuOG1aMlGEs --000000000000b519ee060fbab8cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Breh. No. On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:45=E2=80=AFPM wrote: > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly > aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of > distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is > undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan= 9 > Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhan= ce > our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 > Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for > innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared > passions and expertise. > > The Need for Modernization > > Technological Evolution: > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last > iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's > essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest > advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This > evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool = in > our modern tech toolkit. > > Security Enhancements: > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a > reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include > cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique > work we do from emerging cyber risks. > > Hardware Compatibility: > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. > Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving > its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, > something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. > > Fostering Innovation > > Research and Education: > Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed computin= g has > always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release > would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for > continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can > achieve with Plan 9. > > Community Engagement: > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an > opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a > richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 > Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new > collaborations and innovations. > > Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential: > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's > capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, > and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptabili= ty > and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. > > Practical Considerations > > Resource Allocation: > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing > Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective > knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new > partnerships or funding avenues. > > Backward Compatibility: > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and > ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while > charting a course for its future. > > Documentation and Support: > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new > release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will > aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we > can all be proud of. > > Conclusion > > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it= =E2=80=99s > a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the > vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards > ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the > modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of > research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the > knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy = of > Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, > shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story. > > > Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. > --vic > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: > >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think > that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. B= ut > it is more work than a recompile. > >> > >> Michael > > > > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and > > linker working on > > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in > > /sys/src/cmd/cc. > > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug > > the compiler, the linker, and > > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when > > I see it. > > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mfd6e6= e0aa79a3314ba0caaf6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000b519ee060fbab8cb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Breh. No.

O= n Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:45 PM <vic.thacker@fastmail.fm> wrote:

Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts o= f Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware of the unique position this operating s= ystem holds in the world of distributed computing. Its influence on modern = computing paradigms is undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy,= the prospect of Plan 9 Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just p= reserve but also enhance our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate = the rationale for Plan 9 Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization,= the potential for innovation, and the practical considerations that align = with our shared passions and expertise.

The Need for Modernization

Technological Evolution:
We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9'= s last iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation= , it's essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest= advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evol= ution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our= modern tech toolkit.

Security Enhancements:
In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a reali= ty we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include cuttin= g-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work we = do from emerging cyber risks.

Hardware Compatibility:
The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. U= pdating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its= usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, somet= hing we, as 9fans, have always embraced.

Fostering Innovation

Research and Education:
Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing ha= s always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release w= ould re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for con= tinued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can achi= eve with Plan 9.

Community Engagement:
A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an op= portunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a richer= ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5 c= ould be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and= innovations.

Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential:
Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabili= ties, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distri= buted systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and forwa= rd-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.

Practical Considerations

Resource Allocation:
We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing P= lan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective knowled= ge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new partners= hips or funding avenues.

Backward Compatibility:
Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and = ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while char= ting a course for its future.

Documentation and Support:
Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new = release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will a= id in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we c= an all be proud of.

Conclusion

The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it&rs= quo;s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at t= he vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensu= ring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the m= odern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of r= esearch, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledg= e, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 = while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shapin= g the next chapter in the Plan 9 story.

Thank you for dedicating your time and attention.
--vic

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote:
> On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote:
>> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I thin= k that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. B= ut it is more work than a recompile.
>>
>> Michael
>
> It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and
> linker working on
> 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in > /sys/src/cmd/cc.
> So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug<= br /> > the compiler, the linker, and
> the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll b= elieve it when
> I see it.
>

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Md302c7e36ed5f10a57504b= cd
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 01:32:48 +0900 From: vic.thacker@fastmail.fm To: "leimy2k via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b3f689c2-bb21-11ee-9f77-f8d60707d4f3 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NOWE0YWE3ZjQ5MWE3NTEzMTRkMDJi?= =?UTF-8?B?MWU1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M9a4aa7f491a751314d02b1e5:1:jd628aZARv5jwBzTjfwoPnfbfA-7VARxGwnR6lJxz5M To clarify, my message represented a genuine exploration of the idea of env= isioning a new release. --vic On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 10:01, Don Bailey wrote: > Breh. No. > > > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:45=E2=80=AFPM wrote: > >> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly >> aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of >> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is >> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Pla= n 9 >> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enha= nce >> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan= 9 >> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for >> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared >> passions and expertise. >> >> The Need for Modernization >> >> Technological Evolution: >> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last >> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it= 's >> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest >> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This >> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool= in >> our modern tech toolkit. >> >> Security Enhancements: >> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a >> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include >> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique >> work we do from emerging cyber risks. >> >> Hardware Compatibility: >> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. >> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving >> its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, >> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. >> >> Fostering Innovation >> >> Research and Education: >> Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed computi= ng has >> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release >> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for >> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can >> achieve with Plan 9. >> >> Community Engagement: >> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an >> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a >> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 >> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new >> collaborations and innovations. >> >> Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential: >> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's >> capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, >> and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptabil= ity >> and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. >> >> Practical Considerations >> >> Resource Allocation: >> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing >> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective >> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new >> partnerships or funding avenues. >> >> Backward Compatibility: >> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work a= nd >> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while >> charting a course for its future. >> >> Documentation and Support: >> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this n= ew >> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will >> aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool = we >> can all be proud of. >> >> Conclusion >> >> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it= =E2=80=99s >> a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the >> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards >> ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the >> modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of >> research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the >> knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy= of >> Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, >> shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story. >> >> >> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. >> --vic >> >> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: >> > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: >> >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think >> that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. = But >> it is more work than a recompile. >> >> >> >> Michael >> > >> > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and >> > linker working on >> > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in >> > /sys/src/cmd/cc. >> > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug >> > the compiler, the linker, and >> > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". 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Wed, 24 Jan 2024 17:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([98.97.1.195]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bt16-20020a056e02249000b003619fa122a2sm2945901ilb.7.2024.01.24.17.53.42 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Jan 2024 17:53:42 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Don A. Bailey" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 20:53:30 -0500 Message-Id: References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21C66) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 95529396-bb24-11ee-8fcf-de8f211fcee8 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NMzVjMmRiNzNjODk0ZDFlZGExNWQ0?= =?UTF-8?B?ODJjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M35c2db73c894d1eda15d482c:1:QmAXCfclS0JH-VXBPO1dgnVgYc6AyNlbsfF8RU0FC6o Tbf I took it as genuine.=20 One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases sh= ould not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the netwo= rk. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended.=20 I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I=E2=80=99= d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only= receive patches through them.=20 D > On Jan 24, 2024, at 8:50=E2=80=AFPM, vic.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFTo clarify, my message represented a genuine exploration of the = idea of envisioning a new release. >=20 > --vic >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 10:01, Don Bailey wrote: >> Breh. No. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:45=E2=80=AFPM wrote: >>>=20 >>> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly >>> aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of >>> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is >>> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Pl= an 9 >>> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enh= ance >>> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Pla= n 9 >>> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for >>> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared >>> passions and expertise. >>>=20 >>> The Need for Modernization >>>=20 >>> Technological Evolution: >>> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's la= st >>> iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, i= t's >>> essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest >>> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This >>> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable too= l in >>> our modern tech toolkit. >>>=20 >>> Security Enhancements: >>> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a >>> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to inclu= de >>> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique >>> work we do from emerging cyber risks. >>>=20 >>> Hardware Compatibility: >>> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for u= s. >>> Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving >>> its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, >>> something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. >>>=20 >>> Fostering Innovation >>>=20 >>> Research and Education: >>> Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed comput= ing has >>> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release >>> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for >>> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we c= an >>> achieve with Plan 9. >>>=20 >>> Community Engagement: >>> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an >>> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a >>> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 >>> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new >>> collaborations and innovations. >>>=20 >>> Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential: >>> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's >>> capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, >>> and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptabi= lity >>> and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. >>>=20 >>> Practical Considerations >>>=20 >>> Resource Allocation: >>> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringi= ng >>> Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective >>> knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring n= ew >>> partnerships or funding avenues. >>>=20 >>> Backward Compatibility: >>> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work = and >>> ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while >>> charting a course for its future. >>>=20 >>> Documentation and Support: >>> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this = new >>> release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that wi= ll >>> aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool= we >>> can all be proud of. >>>=20 >>> Conclusion >>>=20 >>> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; i= t=E2=80=99s >>> a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the >>> vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards >>> ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in t= he >>> modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of >>> research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the >>> knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legac= y of >>> Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, >>> shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. >>> --vic >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: >>>> On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: >>>>> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think >>> that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system.= But >>> it is more work than a recompile. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Michael >>>>=20 >>>> It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and >>>> linker working on >>>> 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in >>>> /sys/src/cmd/cc. >>>> So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug >>>> the compiler, the linker, and >>>> the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when >>>> I see it. >>>>=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M35c2d= b73c894d1eda15d482c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D9321836 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 03:09:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A40291EB for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 21:09:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM6cbc90c73e5f1ff9ed6c5258.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 0E3DBA269AA; 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[Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Content-Language: en-US To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> From: Jacob Moody In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: bfd64098-bb26-11ee-8d2e-b965fd8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNmNiYzkwYzczZTVmMWZmOWVkNmM1?= =?UTF-8?B?MjU4Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M6cbc90c73e5f1ff9ed6c5258:1:woZ8zQNK66o1jf_MfC9513o6J2qRirt-5JTrahsl7DI On 1/24/24 19:53, Don A. Bailey wrote: > Tbf I took it as genuine.=20 >=20 > One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases = should not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the net= work. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended.=20 I have a hard time following what "fluid updates through the network" is su= pposed to mean. If you mean that patches should be made by the community then that is exact= ly what 9front is. >=20 > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I=E2=80= =99d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to o= nly receive patches through them.=20 Why do you dislike 9front? 9front works with the foundation, we have a regu= lar committer who is directly in the foundation. >> On Jan 24, 2024, at 8:50=E2=80=AFPM, vic.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFTo clarify, my message represented a genuine exploration of the= idea of envisioning a new release. >> >> --vic 9front is exactly what you're envisioning, we keep the system up to date to= keep it working in the modern world. Modern hardware support, modern compatibility with software a= s required, all this stuff. I don't know where you folks think the code is going to come from, there re= ally isn't that much activity outside of 9front. If you want to personally take up the lead and fix every= thing bug-for-bug starting again from 4e or 9legacy be my guest. 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[Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: d93f2278-bb28-11ee-ac30-f24bc82de8d8 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNTYwYThmZjE5MzY1MDU1OTZmNTdh?= =?UTF-8?B?ZGIzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> From: "Kurt H Maier via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M560a8ff1936505596f57adb3:1:p39dw75ZfBj52Tn361dPhe4MJ0eWBFulKysnn66skAU On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 08:53:30PM -0500, Don A. Bailey wrote: > Tbf I took it as genuine.=20 >=20 > One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases = should not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the net= work. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended.=20 might want to focus on advice from people who use plan 9, instead > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. 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[Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. From: "Noam Preil" To: "9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> References: <7FCFB39A-387F-437B-9CE1-874ABAC78C79@gmail.com>

<0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: fc0a9480-bb29-11ee-9a8a-d433ff8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNDIwMDJmNDgzMGEyZTg1NGJkMTU0?= =?UTF-8?B?OGY1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M42002f4830a2e854bd1548f5:1:ZWxpuoNiQRGvSNDS9AVBSU6KWbjTBjdurJMVqV7sN2o It might help to believe that if you wrote actual ideas about what should be done. - Noam Preil ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M42002= f4830a2e854bd1548f5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B67240AB for ; 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[Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] From: Alex Musolino Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:12:15 +1030 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 7aa74256-bb2b-11ee-858e-ac280917d348 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NYzgwZWYyYTgzOGE0NTUzZGFkYjc3?= =?UTF-8?B?ZDk5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mc80ef2a838a4553dadb77d99:1:fyXcRh_dtY1ZcO1rF9ImuVkdQTLLZJyXluEy2BsC0OA > One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 > releases should not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates > through the network. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, > as intended. I agree. 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From: "Noam Preil" To: "9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> References: <19E18F76B14381D6750784801BD821E4@musolino.id.au> In-Reply-To: <19E18F76B14381D6750784801BD821E4@musolino.id.au> X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b9c89724-bb2f-11ee-bc4b-a6ba1e34d525 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNTk5YjdmNmZkZGFkYTA3YmM0MTRk?= =?UTF-8?B?ODI4Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M599b7f6fddada07bc414d828:1:Gxs_MdJV_TdgUowOxpyw5fgA8G_Zi_t-MrX7WSQTOMw That seems like a lot of work, though; surely, we can all just share a rootfs over 9p!! ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M599b7= f6fddada07bc414d828 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B6D24AE2 for ; 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Wed, 24 Jan 2024 19:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([98.97.1.195]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h14-20020a05660208ce00b007bf021d13ebsm7674369ioz.49.2024.01.24.19.49.43 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Jan 2024 19:49:43 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Don A. Bailey" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 22:49:33 -0500 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21C66) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: ca7d7792-bb34-11ee-83aa-1d5f058c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NY2UwNjcxNWIwOWJmMzUxMzk5Yjdh?= =?UTF-8?B?YzAzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mce06715b09bf351399b7ac03:1:7GTTTSQIOWZZA0DRMvqAiycPl1cdkfCPVjfj9c6jdV4 I use it. It=E2=80=99s also my advice. It wasn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Cadvice=E2= =80=9D from Rob, it was a design choice. There=E2=80=99s more value in that= than =E2=80=9Cadvice=E2=80=9D.=20 Not interested in your theoretical discussions or trolling. Thanks. D > On Jan 24, 2024, at 10:44=E2=80=AFPM, Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans= .net> wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 08:53:30PM -0500, Don A. Bailey wrote: >> Tbf I took it as genuine. >>=20 >> One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases= should not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the ne= twork. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended. >=20 > might want to focus on advice from people who use plan 9, instead >=20 >> I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. 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<0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 22:52:59 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000447c43060fbd1eac Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 4580cffc-bb35-11ee-8fc7-bacfe5fdb871 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NMjIzYjI2NDQ4ZTc2MDdiYmQ0ZmJi?= =?UTF-8?B?M2Y5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M223b26448e7607bbd4fbb3f9:1:Gf_VLdt7tp-KGl1bESGJFe_C-tLGfZgnt2TOHWIo_Z0 --000000000000447c43060fbd1eac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been posting on 9fans for 20 years, hacking the kernel as long, and porting it to various chips and SoCs for as long. I don't have to prove anything to you. On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 10:50=E2=80=AFPM Noam Preil wr= ote: > It might help to believe that if you wrote actual ideas about what > should be done. >=20 > - Noam Preil >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M223b2= 6448e7607bbd4fbb3f9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000447c43060fbd1eac Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I've been posting on 9fans for 20 years, h= acking the kernel as long, and porting it to various chips and SoCs for as = long. I don't have to prove anything to you.

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 10:50 PM Noam Preil <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:

It might help to belie= ve that if you wrote actual ideas about what
should be done.

- Noam Preil

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M42002f4830a2e854bd1548= f5
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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[Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. From: "Noam Preil" To: "9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> References: <7FCFB39A-387F-437B-9CE1-874ABAC78C79@gmail.com>

<0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com>

In-Reply-To: X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: ef570024-bb39-11ee-8ded-755c088c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZDhkNDQ5M2Q5ODdiODhhMTU5MDky?= =?UTF-8?B?NTRjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Md8d4493d987b88a15909254c:1:fidWAURcCKPEU4JLTLDBDKAOeBBOJy9BTheE0iADEmA I wasn't talking to you :P That was a response to the post that looked AI-generated. 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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 06:17:39 +0900 From: vic.thacker@fastmail.fm To: "leimy2k via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b248020e-bb49-11ee-ab99-b9e01e3844af Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZmZiYWVlMDkxNDlkZTNjYzgxZjUz?= =?UTF-8?B?ZTBkPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mffbaee09149de3cc81f53e0d:1:fta2I9mvO4G5Lb2w66-r1ADzrU-eDPgKK0rxd7_KuWQ Thank you for your valuable insight. I appreciate being corrected when wron= g. The purpose of my query regarding the development of a vision for Plan 9= is to deeply understand the collective aspirations and goals of our commun= ity. I firmly believe that aligning our collective efforts with a mutually = recognized and understood vision is significantly more effective than proce= eding without clear objectives. However, I must admit to feeling somewhat a= drift, as I have yet to encounter specific discussions or documents that cl= early outline such a vision. My intention is not to challenge or criticize = but to seek clarity and insight. I am in the process of exploring and seeki= ng to comprehend the community's vision to guide my contributions. However,= it is challenging for me to engage effectively in a community when there's= no unified vision to align with. Efforts expended in vain are seldom appre= ciated by anyone. Thank you.=20 -vic On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 13:26, Noam Preil wrote: > I wasn't talking to you :P >=20 > That was a response to the post that looked AI-generated. I sincerely > apologize if I accidentally responded to your post instead, but I don't > think I did ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mffbae= e09149de3cc81f53e0d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob21.topicbox.com (tb-ob21.topicbox.com [173.228.157.67]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E8023DBE for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 07:32:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob21.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8401D29A for ; 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From: Lucio De Re Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 08:31:46 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 6e527122-bb4b-11ee-bc4a-0c56038c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NOTllMGY1MzE0MDEyYzk2Y2E5Y2Q3?= =?UTF-8?B?YWFmPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M99e0f5314012c96ca9cd7aaf:1:RrJXQ3Bct0jGBzcrzsWCCcKSQzRe3SqEs-PN8hALnaY On 1/25/24, Noam Preil wrote: > I wasn't talking to you :P > > That was a response to the post that looked AI-generated. I sincerely > apologize if I accidentally responded to your post instead, but I don't > think I did > If you find it difficult to quote at least the sender of the message you are responding to, then it is not surprising that people misunderstand your intentions. 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="khm@sciops.net"; helo=wopr.sciops.net; client-ip=216.126.196.60 Received: from wopr.sciops.net (wopr.sciops.net [216.126.196.60]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 01:38:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from khm@sciops.net) Received: from localhost (wopr.sciops.net [local]) by wopr.sciops.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id ab2db3cd for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 22:38:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 22:38:33 -0800 To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> References:

MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 724c074c-bb4c-11ee-98a3-81316cd3faa3 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZjcyNzgzMTFjNjVmZTRlOTAzYjg3?= =?UTF-8?B?MGFhPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> From: "Kurt H Maier via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mf7278311c65fe4e903b870aa:1:TInxYsm3yK21IfWv57kyH2pzyVecP476O-Ui9Rr5HCw On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 10:49:33PM -0500, Don A. Bailey wrote: > I use it. It=E2=80=99s also my advice. It wasn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Cadvice= =E2=80=9D from Rob, it was a design choice. There=E2=80=99s more value in t= hat than =E2=80=9Cadvice=E2=80=9D.=20 It's a design choice nobody can implement, because it presumes that the starting point is correct enough that you never have to break compatibility. It's a wonderful design choice to make, for instance, regarding a system you never intend to touch again. > Not interested in your theoretical discussions or trolling. Thanks. You talk about receiving patches from the foundation but *I'm* the one with theoretical discussions or trolling? 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="khm@sciops.net"; helo=wopr.sciops.net; client-ip=216.126.196.60 Received: from wopr.sciops.net (wopr.sciops.net [216.126.196.60]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 01:59:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from khm@sciops.net) Received: from localhost (wopr.sciops.net [local]) by wopr.sciops.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id c80aea7c for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 24 Jan 2024 22:58:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 22:58:45 -0800 To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> References: <7FCFB39A-387F-437B-9CE1-874ABAC78C79@gmail.com>

<0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com>

<0bb8de32-684a-4fe6-9da2-1bf1af53f5b4@app.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0bb8de32-684a-4fe6-9da2-1bf1af53f5b4@app.fastmail.com> Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3ffaf2a0-bb4f-11ee-9dad-fb724d263d87 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NOGQ4ZTYyYzRmNDk0ZDliNzA3NDI2?= =?UTF-8?B?MGM1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Kurt H Maier via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M8d8e62c4f494d9b7074260c5:1:lnbN7OjYK4nOJX16XvZx6QjxngmjpBt9FKJGq3bn374 On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 06:17:39AM +0900, vic.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote: > However, it is challenging for me to engage effectively in a community > when there's no unified vision to align with. We all like Plan 9. Identify the people who like the same things about Plan 9 that you like about Plan 9, and engage with them. 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<0bb8de32-684a-4fe6-9da2-1bf1af53f5b4@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Sergey Zhilkin Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:32:27 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0000000000004521d3060fc1dcbb Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b1a68eb8-bb64-11ee-b735-e455028c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NMmZjNmFhYjZmNmM1Zjc1Y2Y4MWE5?= =?UTF-8?B?MjJmPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M2fc6aab6f6c5f75cf81a922f:1:Z0Km0Z30I4yLj4D-gEW6BanrRn1lMJWgFuPUZoOmFgI --0000000000004521d3060fc1dcbb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All! 5 cent's from me There was Akaros, HarveyOS (ideas not so bad), NIX (kernel). Modern academia, imho, tries to solve issues in lunix that was already solved in Plan9. Modern programming - python (imho another Basic), Rust(? even in kernel?), NodeJS (who loves it???), Go-lang (we already have it) Modern hardware - RISC-V, ARM64 ? Maybe innovation will be not code, but communication between ppl around plan9, 9legacy, 9front? =D1=87=D1=82, 25 =D1=8F=D0=BD=D0=B2. 2024=E2=80=AF=D0=B3. =D0=B2 10:59, Kur= t H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 06:17:39AM +0900, vic.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote: > > However, it is challenging for me to engage effectively in a community > > when there's no unified vision to align with. >=20 > We all like Plan 9. Identify the people who like the same things about > Plan 9 that you like about Plan 9, and engage with them. It might be > easier than taking on the whole community simultaneously. >=20 > khm --=20 =D0=A1 =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B8=D0=BB=D1=83=D1=87=D1=88=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B8 =D0=BF= =D0=BE=D0=B6=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=B0=D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=8F=D0=BC=D0=B8 =D0=96=D0=B8=D0=BB=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=BD =D0=A1=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B3=D0=B5=D0=B9 With best regards Zhilkin Sergey ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M2fc6a= ab6f6c5f75cf81a922f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --0000000000004521d3060fc1dcbb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello All!

5 cent's from me =

There was Akaros, HarveyOS (ideas not so bad), NIX (kernel).&nbs= p;

Modern academia, imho, tries to solve issues in lunix&nbs= p;that was already solved in Plan9.

Modern programming - pyt= hon (imho another Basic), Rust(? even in kernel?), NodeJS (who loves i= t???), Go-lang (we already have it)

Modern hardware - RISC-V= , ARM64 ?

Maybe innovation will be not code= , but communication between ppl around plan9, 9legacy, 9front?

<= br />

D= 7;т, 25 янв. 2024 г. в 10:59, Ku= rt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net= >:

On T= hu, Jan 25, 2024 at 06:17:39AM +0900, vic.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
> However, it is challenging for me to engage effectively in a community=
> when there's no unified vision to align with.

We all like Plan 9. Identify the people who like the same things abou= t
Plan 9 that you like about Plan 9, and engage with them. It might be<= br /> easier than taking on the whole community simultaneously.

khm

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M8d8e62c4f494d9b7074260= c5
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

С наил&#x= 443;чшими пожел= аниями
Жилк= ;ин Сергей
With best r= egards
Zhilkin Sergey

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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 03:03:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 06:03:34 -0500 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 6960097e-bb71-11ee-97a0-3a84098c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NMGMyYjcyNWYwNzhiOTU0OTkwYmEx?= =?UTF-8?B?M2ZmPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M0c2b725f078b954990ba13ff:1:6Jn76t6G6X3N7P3RGriDFMFijyQkW_y9pw4U51riQ3Y This email suffers from a lack of semicolons; Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and direction comes from people writing code; once the work begins, people are sometimes willing to help -- but only once work begins. Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly awa= re of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of distr= ibuted computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is undeniable= . In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 Release 5= beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance our belo= ved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 Release = 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for innovation, an= d the practical considerations that align with our shared passions and expe= rtise. >=20 > The Need for Modernization >=20 > Technological Evolution:=20 > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last= iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's= essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advanceme= nts in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is c= rucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern te= ch toolkit. >=20 > Security Enhancements:=20 > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a rea= lity we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include cutt= ing-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work w= e do from emerging cyber risks. >=20 > Hardware Compatibility:=20 > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us.= Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving i= ts usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, som= ething we, as 9fans, have always embraced. >=20 > Fostering Innovation >=20 > Research and Education:=20 > Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed computin= g has always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new relea= se would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for= continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can = achieve with Plan 9. >=20 > Community Engagement: > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an = opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a rich= er ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5= could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations a= nd innovations. >=20 > Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential:=20 > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabiliti= es, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distribu= ted systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and forward= -thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. >=20 > Practical Considerations >=20 > Resource Allocation:=20 > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing= Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective knowl= edge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new partne= rships or funding avenues. >=20 > Backward Compatibility: > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work an= d ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while ch= arting a course for its future. >=20 > Documentation and Support:=20 > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this ne= w release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will= aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we= can all be proud of. >=20 > Conclusion >=20 > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it= =E2=80=99s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been= at the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards= ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the = modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of rese= arch, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, = and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 whi= le shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the n= ext chapter in the Plan 9 story. >=20 >=20 > Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. > --vic >=20 > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: > >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think th= at it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But i= t is more work than a recompile. > >>=20 > >> Michael=20 > >=20 > > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and > > linker working on > > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in > > /sys/src/cmd/cc. > > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug > > the compiler, the linker, and > > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 06:10:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:10:01 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 7aaee988-bb8b-11ee-abb6-5264098c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZDcwZDg1MmY3NjRiZjA3MTEzYmYw?= =?UTF-8?B?YjQ4Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> From: "hiro via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Md70d852f764bf07113bf0b48:1:jSWJUqFIoXb965Gxqzvqxv5L4QUecXL-33JVjn0Syp0 > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I=E2=80= =99d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to o= nly receive patches through them. Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User? Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would "manage" something. for example development and continuous hosting of the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via email) received from them. I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community members are able to contribute quite effectively. To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with blackjack and hookers. In my head. Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and keep them alive and infect others with all that. 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In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:14:48 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 261381ee-bb8c-11ee-b31a-74cb098c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNzhjOWUzOGFmMDE5NzZkNDllYTFj?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2Y4Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "hiro via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M78c9e38af01976d49ea1ccf8:1:0jdLi4VwCChoJ0jaLybAsyTyIfDO_QvtFelDTt9MABw > [...] then it is not surprising that people > misunderstand your intentions. and otherwise, too. you'll just have to adapt your predictions (or expectations?) a little if you're so frequently surprised. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M78c9e= 38af01976d49ea1ccf8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77512238E7 for ; 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 07:35:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 10:35:10 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000747121060fc6ed10 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 5d735424-bb97-11ee-9e64-981d018c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NYTFjM2E1MzkyNTIxYjNmM2JlYTc3?= =?UTF-8?B?MjIzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Ma1c3a5392521b3f3bea77223:1:xpydg9e5qEQCAh7yPmdyl4r4yQgXb4PIoRAXtlNhtRk --000000000000747121060fc6ed10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for 9front, yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does that have to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually designed it? On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 7:20=E2=80=AFAM wrote: > This email suffers from a lack of semicolons; > > Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and > direction comes from people writing code; once > the work begins, people are sometimes willing to > help -- but only once work begins. > > Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: > > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly > aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of > distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is > undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan= 9 > Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhan= ce > our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 > Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for > innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared > passions and expertise. > > > > The Need for Modernization > > > > Technological Evolution: > > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's > last iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, > it's essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest > advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This > evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool = in > our modern tech toolkit. > > > > Security Enhancements: > > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a > reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include > cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique > work we do from emerging cyber risks. > > > > Hardware Compatibility: > > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for > us. Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only > preserving its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of > computing, something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. > > > > Fostering Innovation > > > > Research and Education: > > Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed comput= ing has > always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release > would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for > continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can > achieve with Plan 9. > > > > Community Engagement: > > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an > opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a > richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 > Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new > collaborations and innovations. > > > > Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential: > > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's > capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, > and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptabili= ty > and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. > > > > Practical Considerations > > > > Resource Allocation: > > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in > bringing Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our > collective knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly > exploring new partnerships or funding avenues. > > > > Backward Compatibility: > > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work > and ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while > charting a course for its future. > > > > Documentation and Support: > > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this > new release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that > will aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a > tool we can all be proud of. > > > > Conclusion > > > > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; > it=E2=80=99s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long = been at > the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards > ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the > modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of > research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the > knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy = of > Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, > shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story. > > > > > > Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. > > --vic > > > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > > > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: > > >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think > that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. B= ut > it is more work than a recompile. > > >> > > >> Michael > > > > > > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and > > > linker working on > > > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in > > > /sys/src/cmd/cc. > > > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug > > > the compiler, the linker, and > > > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when > > > I see it. > > > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Ma1c3a= 5392521b3f3bea77223 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000747121060fc6ed10 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Direction comes from people writing code.= .. but you write code for 9front, yes? What does that have to do with mainl= ine Plan 9? And what does that have to do with the direction set forth by t= he people that actually designed it?

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 7:20 AM <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:

This email suffers from a lack of semicolons;<= br />
Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and
direction comes from people writing code; once
the work begins, people are sometimes willing to
help -- but only once work begins.

Quoth vic.thac= ker@fastmail.fm:
> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly = aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of di= stributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is undenia= ble. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 Releas= e 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance our b= eloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 Relea= se 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for innovation,= and the practical considerations that align with our shared passions and e= xpertise.
>
> The Need for Modernization
>
> Technological Evolution:
> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9= 's last iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innov= ation, it's essential to adapt and update our system in line with the l= atest advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This= evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool i= n our modern tech toolkit.
>
> Security Enhancements:
> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a = reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include c= utting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique wor= k we do from emerging cyber risks.
>
> Hardware Compatibility:
> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for = us. Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preservin= g its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, = something we, as 9fans, have always embraced.
>
> Fostering Innovation
>
> Research and Education:
> Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computi= ng has always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new rele= ase would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform fo= r continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can= achieve with Plan 9.
>
> Community Engagement:
> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is = an opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a r= icher ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Releas= e 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaboration= s and innovations.
>
> Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential:
> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's cap= abilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and d= istributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and = forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world.
>
> Practical Considerations
>
> Resource Allocation:
> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bring= ing Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective kn= owledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new par= tnerships or funding avenues.
>
> Backward Compatibility:
> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work= and ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while= charting a course for its future.
>
> Documentation and Support:
> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this= new release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that w= ill aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool= we can all be proud of.
>
> Conclusion
>
> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; = it’s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been= at the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards= ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in = the modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms= of research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the kno= wledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Pl= an 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, s= haping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story.
>
>
> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention.
> --vic
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote:
> > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote:
> >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I= think that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any syst= em. But it is more work than a recompile.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >
> > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and=
> > linker working on
> > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift= in
> > /sys/src/cmd/cc.
> > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and d= ebug
> > the compiler, the linker, and
> > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'= ;ll believe it when
> > I see it.
> >

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M0c2b725f078b954990ba13= ff
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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[Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Content-Language: en-US To: 9fans@9fans.net References: From: Jacob Moody In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3b9c7c3c-bb9b-11ee-9c26-4c58038c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NYWM4M2UxYmMxMTliMWRhOWFhZmVj?= =?UTF-8?B?NjllPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mac83e1bc119b1da9aafec69e:1:uwOjSuw0rXKnIdAehNQ9EqhPzHkwHR05xAnI9Nm0VzA On 1/25/24 09:35, Don Bailey wrote: > Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for 9front= , yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does that h= ave to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually designed= it?=C2=A0 There is no "path for patches" in 9legacy, if I wanted to write code for "m= ainline Plan 9" who do I send to code to? Who is going to help review and bug test my code. You me= ntioned earlier that you had ported Plan 9 to other systems, is that code available anywhere, wa= s that upstreamed into "mainline Plan 9". 9front happened, as Ori stated, because there was no pat= h forward with "mainline Plan 9". When I looked in to Plan 9 some 5ish years ago and looking at both camps of= folks it was clear to me that one group was going to look at my patches, work on my hardware, and ha= d an active community. If y'all wanted to set up a pipeline for patches, encourage folks to send i= n their patches and make some repo for folks to work on then yeah sure. But right now there really i= sn't a comparison between what "mainline plan 9" is and 9front, one is a museum and the other is a li= ving distribution. There is of course Miller's branch, which I respect as being active and actually usa= ble, but I have a feeling you don't consider that "mainline plan 9" either. Look man, be the change you want to see in the world, setup the repo, revie= w patches, merge new code, et all. Getting mad at us for writing the code and keeping stuff working is a = bit silly, especially if your only reason is that we aren't the "blessed few". Those folks as far as I ca= n tell are not interested in this anymore, we're on our own here. There are clearly some folks intereste= d here in continuing "mainline plan 9" why not work together and get something that is easier for folks to= use? 9front will continue to be over here with a ten year plus head start. - moody ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mac83e= 1bc119b1da9aafec69e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E0A2428E for ; 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In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:44:34 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000a40771060fc7e544 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 0fc2f036-bba1-11ee-8934-adc5897bcc70 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNDljM2VlOWQ0MzdkMTIzZDc1MTYw?= =?UTF-8?B?ZGM4Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M49c3ee9d437d123d75160dc8:1:8w5flpIeAdPb_Sel7lHpAGbAw6DxcFLfayt9vY19R7Y --000000000000a40771060fc7e544 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as a user and a developer. I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. D On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> w= rote: > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I=E2= =80=99d > prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only > receive patches through them. >=20 > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User? >=20 > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would > "manage" something. for example development and continuous hosting of > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. >=20 > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via > email) received from them. >=20 > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. >=20 > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community > members are able to contribute quite effectively. >=20 > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with > blackjack and hookers. In my head. >=20 > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit > another patch to sources some day soon. >=20 > hiro ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M49c3e= e9d437d123d75160dc8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000a40771060fc7e544 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm not sure what all this was, so I = didn't read most of it.

If 9front beco= mes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as a u= ser and a developer.

I trust the sources t= hat come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any interest in the mess of= whatever 9front is supposed to be.

On = Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

> I am not a fan of the weird 9front sp= lit from the standard repo. I’d prefer the sources to be managed by t= he foundation and would like to only receive patches through them.
Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User?
Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real
bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would
"manage" something. for example development and continuous = hosting of
the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case.

I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the
foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last
few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via
email) received from them.

I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off&qu= ot;
is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result
the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server
resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and
community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.

It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely
contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate
with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community
members are able to contribute quite effectively.

To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay
alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own
team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with
blackjack and hookers. In my head.

Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what
I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and
keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit
another patch to sources some day soon.

hiro

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Md70d852f764bf07113bf0b= 48
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="moody@posixcafe.org"; helo=mail.posixcafe.org; client-ip=45.76.19.58 Received: from mail.posixcafe.org (mail.posixcafe.org [45.76.19.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:53:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from moody@posixcafe.org) Received: from [192.168.168.200] ( [207.45.82.38]) by mail.posixcafe.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 8de8b88e (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 10:53:34 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <721b70fd-f7e8-463a-b9bc-33c9abf9ef58@posixcafe.org> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 10:53:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Content-Language: en-US To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com>

From: Jacob Moody In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3e96d1c4-bba2-11ee-b7e8-c18891c86b50 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NMzQ3NGIzNzEwYmU4M2Y5MjZkZjhm?= =?UTF-8?B?ZTEzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M3474b3710be83f926df8fe13:1:b7CV1nuS7mSmpiUQEf2eenktoBEMJy2qmgpvZgGw01Q Do you have specific issues with our code? All I've seen is vague finger po= inting. We don't need some authority to point at 9front and say its "mainline", peo= ple see where the effort is going, endorsement or not. On 1/25/24 10:44, Don Bailey wrote: > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.=C2=A0 >=20 > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both = as a user and a developer.=C2=A0 >=20 > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any inte= rest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.=C2=A0 >=20 > D >=20 > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net = > wrote: >=20 > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I= =E2=80=99d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would lik= e to only receive patches through them. >=20 > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a U= ser? >=20 > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would > "manage" something. for example=C2=A0 development and continuous host= ing of > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. >=20 > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via > email) received from them. >=20 > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. >=20 > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community > members are able to contribute quite effectively. >=20 > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with > blackjack and hookers. In my head. >=20 > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit > another patch to sources some day soon. >=20 > hiro >=20 > ------------------------------------------ > 9fans: 9fans > Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-= Md70d852f764bf07113bf0b48 > Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscriptio= n >=20 > *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery=C2=A0options Permalink ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M3474b= 3710be83f926df8fe13 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob21.topicbox.com (tb-ob21.topicbox.com [173.228.157.67]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAAEF23E23 for ; 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="khm@sciops.net"; helo=wopr.sciops.net; client-ip=216.126.196.60 Received: from wopr.sciops.net (wopr.sciops.net [216.126.196.60]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:07:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from khm@sciops.net) Received: from localhost (wopr.sciops.net [local]) by wopr.sciops.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id 37f0bd08 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 09:07:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 09:07:30 -0800 To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 4b9cfc52-bba4-11ee-8522-c305a1d79f3c Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZTEzODIyNmZhYzZmZjFlMjAxNTY1?= =?UTF-8?B?YjkzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Kurt H Maier via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Me138226fac6ff1e201565b93:1:yMbi4wFKoLN5YE_vqVJTcWgGwZgTljvyuaOSSBf-J3Q On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:44:34AM -0500, Don Bailey wrote: > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. This tracks. 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In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:10:19 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000bafb40060fc84109 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: a8962280-bba4-11ee-a5d5-9a34a6b48d85 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NMmI3MTVmYmY3YmNkZWZiNWNlMGZm?= =?UTF-8?B?YjA5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M2b715fbf7bcdefb5ce0ffb09:1:UE1VAYqmylk3AqcZXO4DIOZUgLomQnIBixFnlGBSiI0 --000000000000bafb40060fc84109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're welcome! On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:09=E2=80=AFPM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fan= s.net> wrote: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:44:34AM -0500, Don Bailey wrote: > > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. >=20 > This tracks. Thanks for your insight. >=20 > khm ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M2b715= fbf7bcdefb5ce0ffb09 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000bafb40060fc84109 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You're welcome!

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:09 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fa= ns <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 25, = 2024 at 11:44:34AM -0500, Don Bailey wrote:
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.
This tracks. Thanks for your insight.

khm

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
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9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 09:22:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7e4d32d6-6b75-47d9-9547-e46a0943845e@posixcafe.org> In-Reply-To: <7e4d32d6-6b75-47d9-9547-e46a0943845e@posixcafe.org> From: Don Bailey Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:22:30 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000572557060fc86def Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 5cb1cb92-bba6-11ee-aefa-d92c5f0be243 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNGI1Zjk0MTNjMjliZGNhOTRlMmY1?= =?UTF-8?B?NjVmPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M4b5f9413c29bdca94e2f565f:1:HuVUPBAdDPigB-rUgEJIyQVQIXnKw5H1LgHY1oWhgWM --000000000000572557060fc86def Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like you're happy keeping 9front separate from "mainline", then. Works for me :-) On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:20=E2=80=AFPM Jacob Moody = wrote: > On 1/25/24 09:35, Don Bailey wrote: > > Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for > 9front, yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does > that have to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually > designed it? >=20 > There is no "path for patches" in 9legacy, if I wanted to write code for > "mainline Plan 9" who do > I send to code to? Who is going to help review and bug test my code. You > mentioned earlier that > you had ported Plan 9 to other systems, is that code available anywhere, > was that upstreamed into > "mainline Plan 9". 9front happened, as Ori stated, because there was no > path forward with "mainline > Plan 9". >=20 > When I looked in to Plan 9 some 5ish years ago and looking at both camps > of folks it was clear to me > that one group was going to look at my patches, work on my hardware, and > had an active community. >=20 > If y'all wanted to set up a pipeline for patches, encourage folks to send > in their patches and make > some repo for folks to work on then yeah sure. But right now there really > isn't a comparison between > what "mainline plan 9" is and 9front, one is a museum and the other is a > living distribution. There is > of course Miller's branch, which I respect as being active and actually > usable, but I have a feeling you > don't consider that "mainline plan 9" either. >=20 > Look man, be the change you want to see in the world, setup the repo, > review patches, merge new code, et > all. Getting mad at us for writing the code and keeping stuff working is a > bit silly, especially if your > only reason is that we aren't the "blessed few". Those folks as far as I > can tell are not interested in > this anymore, we're on our own here. There are clearly some folks > interested here in continuing "mainline > plan 9" why not work together and get something that is easier for folks > to use? 9front will continue to > be over here with a ten year plus head start. >=20 > - moody >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M4b5f9= 413c29bdca94e2f565f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000572557060fc86def Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sounds like you're happy keeping 9front se= parate from "mainline", then. Works for me :-)

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:20 PM Jacob Moody = <moody@posixcafe.org> wrot= e:

On 1/25/24 = 09:35, Don Bailey wrote:
> Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for 9fr= ont, yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does tha= t have to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually desig= ned it?

There is no "path for patches" in 9legacy, if I wanted to write c= ode for "mainline Plan 9" who do
I send to code to? Who is going to help review and bug test my code. You me= ntioned earlier that
you had ported Plan 9 to other systems, is that code available anywhere, wa= s that upstreamed into
"mainline Plan 9". 9front happened, as Ori stated, because there = was no path forward with "mainline
Plan 9".

When I looked in to Plan 9 some 5ish years ago and looking at both camps of= folks it was clear to me
that one group was going to look at my patches, work on my hardware, and ha= d an active community.

If y'all wanted to set up a pipeline for patches, encourage folks to se= nd in their patches and make
some repo for folks to work on then yeah sure. But right now there really i= sn't a comparison between
what "mainline plan 9" is and 9front, one is a museum and the oth= er is a living distribution. There is
of course Miller's branch, which I respect as being active and actually= usable, but I have a feeling you
don't consider that "mainline plan 9" either.

Look man, be the change you want to see in the world, setup the repo, revie= w patches, merge new code, et
all. Getting mad at us for writing the code and keeping stuff working is a = bit silly, especially if your
only reason is that we aren't the "blessed few". Those folks = as far as I can tell are not interested in
this anymore, we're on our own here. There are clearly some folks inter= ested here in continuing "mainline
plan 9" why not work together and get something that is easier for fol= ks to use? 9front will continue to
be over here with a ten year plus head start.

- moody

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mac83e1bc119b1da9aafec6= 9e
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b16-20020a17090a991000b0028d134a9223sm1806616pjp.8.2024.01.25.09.24.39 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Jan 2024 09:24:39 -0800 (PST) From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.400.31\)) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 09:24:28 -0800 References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com>

To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <667E776F-FFFA-49FB-AA5B-61CB56CDB3AD@iitbombay.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.400.31) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: a375efae-bba6-11ee-b143-be60dbe30a12 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NYjcxZDg1OWVkYmIyNGRlMTcwYmYy?= =?UTF-8?B?YzcxPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mb71d859edbb24de170bf2c71:1:RHzxUJEiEHRNkPJ6AixTFY4aTkmRiiFyJMZMaHRhUyE On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44=E2=80=AFAM, Don Bailey wrot= e: >=20 > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.=20 >=20 > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both = as a user and a developer.=20 >=20 > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any inte= rest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. 9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong reaso= ns? ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mb71d8= 59edbb24de170bf2c71 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ACF525C47 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 18:31:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421252F00F for ; 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<667E776F-FFFA-49FB-AA5B-61CB56CDB3AD@iitbombay.org> In-Reply-To: <667E776F-FFFA-49FB-AA5B-61CB56CDB3AD@iitbombay.org> From: Don Bailey Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:31:23 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0000000000000e2121060fc88d7e Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 99c9ca88-bba7-11ee-90a2-d1550d4c7db3 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNDQ3MzZlYWMyNjI4NGZkOWVhYTgy?= =?UTF-8?B?N2Y3Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M44736eac26284fd9eaa827f7:1:iZyn2FrXB3QB3Ck9mnsopc7aAoOHFlWldORxnuVmAFo --0000000000000e2121060fc88d7e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cool gaslighting. On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah w= rote: > On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44=E2=80=AFAM, Don Bailey wr= ote: > > > > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. > > > > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both > as a user and a developer. > > > > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any > interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. >=20 > 9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong > reasons? >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M44736= eac26284fd9eaa827f7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --0000000000000e2121060fc88d7e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Cool gaslighting.

<= br />

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:

On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:= 44 AM, Don Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. <= br /> >
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 alto= gether. Both as a user and a developer.
>
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have a= ny interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.

9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong reaso= ns?

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mb71d859edbb24de170bf2c= 71
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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[Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Content-Language: en-US To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <7e4d32d6-6b75-47d9-9547-e46a0943845e@posixcafe.org> From: Jacob Moody In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: f789f152-bba7-11ee-b820-c657babf6308 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NMDk1YTFmMzMwZDVmNjRkMDE4Y2Ji?= =?UTF-8?B?MDg2Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M095a1f330d5f64d018cbb086:1:KgyR8x0ytch3oZH-l47Jdw_OPVGl72rWtk7wUNLkgVk It doesn't matter if one is "mainline" or not, you've completely missed the= point of my mail. One is usable and the other is not. One has a community, the other does not= . One has people who share source, there other does not. Put your time where your mouth is a= nd do something about the sorry state of "mainline". Where is the work? Where is the code? = Again all I see are snarky comments and bullshit. Or perhaps you're more interested in hoarding code so you can sit around st= roking your ego about ideological purity. Doesn't make any difference to me. 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[174.4.38.215]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g8-20020a170902f74800b001d743463bb5sm7591275plw.150.2024.01.25.10.14.41 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Jan 2024 10:14:42 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Misch X-Google-Original-From: Michael Misch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.400.31\)) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 10:14:30 -0800 References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com>

To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.400.31) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: a0b02828-bbad-11ee-a638-a7f6feb7fc80 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZWE4YTZhYjljNDY4MDIzNGU3MTcx?= =?UTF-8?B?MmZjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mea8a6ab9c4680234e71712fc:1:viaptwrBHa6YqAGAVj0omMZa6D72iiws5R8AKHvlVqs This is incredibly rude and tone-deaf. Your convictions aside, dismissing a= n opinion like this is simply stonewalling, and quite frankly obliterated w= hatever respect I may have started to develop for you.=20 > On Jan 25, 2024, at 08:44, Don Bailey wrote: >=20 > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.=20 >=20 > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both = as a user and a developer.=20 >=20 > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any inte= rest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.=20 >=20 > D >=20 > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>= wrote: > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I=E2= =80=99d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like t= o only receive patches through them. >=20 > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User? >=20 > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would > "manage" something. for example development and continuous hosting of > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. >=20 > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via > email) received from them. >=20 > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. >=20 > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community > members are able to contribute quite effectively. >=20 > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with > blackjack and hookers. In my head. >=20 > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit > another patch to sources some day soon. >=20 > hiro > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permali= nk ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mea8a6= ab9c4680234e71712fc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob21.topicbox.com (tb-ob21.topicbox.com [173.228.157.67]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4672F288BB for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:17:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob21.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569F9232F0 for ; 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<667E776F-FFFA-49FB-AA5B-61CB56CDB3AD@iitbombay.org>

In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:17:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0000000000006939a9060fc9318f Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 0584766e-bbae-11ee-a4e9-c820c299d4f7 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNDExNTg4YWE3OTEyNWM5Y2MwN2Y4?= =?UTF-8?B?MGEyPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M411588aa79125c9cc07f80a2:1:lhRIMYrJb84kSN8Jk8f-W23YIEEoBqd8x8t7q0gJhDk --0000000000006939a9060fc9318f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sometimes gatekeeping is good. It's OK if folks don't agree. I think it's healthy to create a strict regimen around "mainline". I am not against 9front doing whatever it wants, I just would prefer if the two did not merge. It's important to keep the 9 ecosystem stable, imo. D On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:02=E2=80=AFPM thedaemon via 9fans <9fans@9fans.ne= t> wrote: > > Don, you have been gate keeping this whole thread. I see noone agreeing > with you either. We could all be a little kinder to one another, > especially since we all have love for Plan 9. > > > =E2=80=94 thed=C3=A6mon =F0=9F=AB=A0 > > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:31 AM, Don Bailey > wrote: > > Cool gaslighting. > > > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah = wrote: > >> On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44=E2=80=AFAM, Don Bailey w= rote: >> > >> > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. >> > >> > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. >> Both as a user and a developer. >> > >> > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any >> interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. >>=20 >> 9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong >> reasons? >>=20 > *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions > + participants > + delivery options > Permalink > > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M41158= 8aa79125c9cc07f80a2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --0000000000006939a9060fc9318f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sometimes gatekeeping is good. It's OK if = folks don't agree.

I think it's healthy = to create a strict regimen around "mainline". I am not against 9f= ront doing whatever it wants, I just would prefer if the two did not merge.= It's important to keep the 9 ecosystem stable, imo.

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:02 PM thedaemon vi= a 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrot= e:

<= br />
Don, you have been gate keeping this whole thr= ead. I see noone agreeing with you either. We could all be a little k= inder to one another, especially since we all have love for Plan 9.

— thedæmon 🫠

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:31 AM, Don= Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com> wrote:
Cool gaslighting.

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25 PM Bakul Shah &l= t;bakul@iitbombay.= org> wrote:
On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Don Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com> wrote:<= br /> >
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. <= br /> >
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 alto= gether. Both as a user and a developer.
>
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have a= ny interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.

9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong reaso= ns?

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mb71d859edbb24de170bf2c= 71
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

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<721b70fd-f7e8-463a-b9bc-33c9abf9ef58@posixcafe.org> In-Reply-To: <721b70fd-f7e8-463a-b9bc-33c9abf9ef58@posixcafe.org> From: Don Bailey Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:18:11 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0000000000006e972b060fc93461 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 234f32e2-bbae-11ee-b69f-9f8badec2d6e Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NMDU5MmZkYjQyMTQzMWU2Mzg4ODk0?= =?UTF-8?B?ODBlPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M0592fdb421431e638889480e:1:_wCaiZUpB-ag87Q6dr_EE-wflpGA9kIEKG3rD9LnTBU --0000000000006e972b060fc93461 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And if 9front stays 9front, that's fine by me. Do it up :-) On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Jacob Moody w= rote: > Do you have specific issues with our code? All I've seen is vague finger > pointing. > We don't need some authority to point at 9front and say its "mainline", > people > see where the effort is going, endorsement or not. > > On 1/25/24 10:44, Don Bailey wrote: > > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. > > > > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both > as a user and a developer. > > > > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any > interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. > > > > D > > > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net > > wrote: > > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. > I=E2=80=99d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would = like to > only receive patches through them. > > > > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a > User? > > > > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the re= al > > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would > > "manage" something. for example development and continuous hosting > of > > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. > > > > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the > > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the la= st > > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via > > email) received from them. > > > > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" > > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a resu= lt > > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server > > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and > > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. > > > > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely > > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to > negotiate > > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community > > members are able to contribute quite effectively. > > > > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always > stay > > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my o= wn > > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool > > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, > with > > blackjack and hookers. In my head. > > > > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is wh= at > > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me > and > > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can subm= it > > another patch to sources some day soon. > > > > hiro > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > 9fans: 9fans > > Permalink: > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Md70d852f764bf0= 7113bf0b48 > < > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Md70d852f764bf0= 7113bf0b48 > > > > Delivery options: > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription < > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> > > > > *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions < > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants < > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options < > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink < > https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M49c3ee9d437d12= 3d75160dc8 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M0592f= db421431e638889480e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --0000000000006e972b060fc93461 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And if 9front stays 9front, that's fine by= me. Do it up :-)

On Thu, Jan 25, = 2024 at 1:13 PM Jacob Moody <moody@posixcafe.org> wrote:

Do you have specific issues with our code? All I= 9;ve seen is vague finger pointing.
We don't need some authority to point at 9front and say its "mainl= ine", people
see where the effort is going, endorsement or not.

On 1/25/24 10:44, Don Bailey wrote:
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.&n= bsp;
>
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 alto= gether. Both as a user and a developer.
>
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have a= ny interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.
>
> D
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net <mailto:9fans@9fans.net>&= gt; wrote:
>
> > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from = the standard repo. I’d prefer the sources to be managed by the founda= tion and would like to only receive patches through them.
>
> Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a de= veloper? Or as a User?
>
> Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the found= ation (or the real
> bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation= existed) would
> "manage" something. for example dev= elopment and continuous hosting of
> the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the= case.
>
> I also would appreciate the making available of pat= ches by the
> foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is = moving in the last
> few years as there was no single commit (or even si= mple patch via
> email) received from them.
>
> I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to= stay split "off"
> is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut= down. As a result
> the community has stepped in to donate their own ti= me, money, server
> resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable p= lan 9 version and
> community (that is willing to stay patches) alive.<= br /> >
> It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behin= d the freely
> contributed code ended up being stronger than the a= bility to negotiate
> with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result l= ots of community
> members are able to contribute quite effectively. >
> To me the legend of what must have been the unix ro= om will always stay
> alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark= to measure my own
> team's success against. But if I cannot be part= of the group of cool
> kids that came out of this, I can at least have my = own bell-labs, with
> blackjack and hookers. In my head.
>
> Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At = least this is what
> I have came here for, and have tried to take what c= aused awe in me and
> keep them alive and infect others with all that. Ma= ybe you can submit
> another patch to sources some day soon.
>
> hiro
>
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18= -Md70d852f764bf07113bf0b48 <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18= -Md70d852f764bf07113bf0b48>
> Delivery options: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription>
>
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans = / see discussions <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans= > + participants <https://9fans.topicbox.co= m/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Pe= rmalink <https= ://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M49c3ee9d437d123d75160= dc8>

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M3474b3710be83f926df8fe= 13
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="alexandr@babicovi.cz"; helo=smtp.profiwh.com; client-ip=85.93.165.22 Received: from smtp.profiwh.com (smtp.profiwh.com [85.93.165.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:21:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from alexandr@babicovi.cz) Received: from babicovi.cz [185.5.70.126] (127.0.0.1 [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.profiwh.com (12.1.1 build 5 DEB9 x64) with ASMTP (SSL) id 202401251921497662 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:21:49 +0100 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:21:48 +0100 To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> From: "Alexandr Babic" Subject: Re[2]: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was: Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Message-ID: X-Mailer: IceWarp Mailer 12.1.1.5 DEB9 x64-Desktop In-Reply-To: References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com>

X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-SpamReason: {Bypass=T}-{0.00}-{0.00}-{0.00 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: a0185a42-bbae-11ee-84b4-ea5ae0861a57 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NYjQzYjRjMzRhN2E0NTkzMmQ1NjJk?= =?UTF-8?B?ZGEyPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mb43b4c34a7a45932d562dda2:1:_8znPpMUKRTO0u4_7s7UeufthuckTKxOxyoJc_Vy-rk hello from czechia. make plan9 not war :-) there are many un*xes, so we can have many distros of plan9 :-) i have 9front, original plan9 in my virtual machines so i think there's rea= lly no problem. and anyone can become creator of new distro and use any code he wants :-) i was thinking about my own czech distro named "TATRAPLAN9", long time ago = there was czech automobile called TATRAPLAN :-) so keep it peaceful here :-) alex@plan9.cz =C2=A0 ----- P=C5=AFvodn=C3=AD zpr=C3=A1va ----- Odesilatel: Michael Misch (michaelmisch1985@gmail.com) Datum: 01/25/24 19:16 P=C5=99=C3=ADjemce: 9fans (9fans@9fans.net) P=C5=99edm=C4=9Bt: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 fo= r the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] This is incredibly rude and tone-deaf. Your convictions aside, dismissing a= n opinion like this is simply stonewalling, and quite frankly obliterated w= hatever respect I may have started to develop for you. > On Jan 25, 2024, at 08:44, Don Bailey wrote: > > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. > > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both = as a user and a developer. > > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any inte= rest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. > > D > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>= wrote: > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I=E2= =80=99d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like t= o only receive patches through them. > > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User? > > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would > "manage" something. for example =C2=A0development and continuous hosting = of > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. > > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via > email) received from them. > > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. > > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community > members are able to contribute quite effectively. > > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with > blackjack and hookers. In my head. > > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit > another patch to sources some day soon. > > hiro > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permali= nk ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mb43b4= c34a7a45932d562dda2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4E222336 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 19:54:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7AA536D68 for ; 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In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:54:33 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0000000000007dd5c3060fc9b6c0 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 37e5fc2c-bbb3-11ee-8268-5187028c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NOGI0MmMzY2M1MGRkNDJlMmU5MjAw?= =?UTF-8?B?ZDAxPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M8b42c3cc50dd42e2e9200d01:1:jhoqFvCb17gQ6qCuUIEbFi-3XI1UFXIk-AimwqjoCT8 --0000000000007dd5c3060fc9b6c0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cool rant. D On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:50=E2=80=AFPM Jacob Moody w= rote: > It doesn't matter if one is "mainline" or not, you've completely missed > the point of my mail. > One is usable and the other is not. One has a community, the other does > not. One has people > who share source, there other does not. Put your time where your mouth is > and do something > about the sorry state of "mainline". Where is the work? Where is the code? > Again all I see > are snarky comments and bullshit. >=20 > Or perhaps you're more interested in hoarding code so you can sit around > stroking your > ego about ideological purity. Doesn't make any difference to me. Honestly > hope you do > walk away from Plan 9 because its clear that your attitude sucks. >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M8b42c= 3cc50dd42e2e9200d01 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --0000000000007dd5c3060fc9b6c0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Cool rant.

<= div>

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:50 PM Jacob Moody <moody@posixcafe.org> wrote:

It doesn't ma= tter if one is "mainline" or not, you've completely missed th= e point of my mail.
One is usable and the other is not. One has a community, the other does not= . One has people
who share source, there other does not. Put your time where your mouth is a= nd do something
about the sorry state of "mainline". Where is the work? Where is = the code? Again all I see
are snarky comments and bullshit.

Or perhaps you're more interested in hoarding code so you can sit aroun= d stroking your
ego about ideological purity. Doesn't make any difference to me. Honest= ly hope you do
walk away from Plan 9 because its clear that your attitude sucks.

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M095a1f330d5f64d018cbb0= 86
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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[Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:42:28 -0500 X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. From: noam@pixelhero.dev In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: a072a5f6-bbb3-11ee-b160-90aac020187c Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNzRjMWVkYjgwNzdmZjhlYTJjODU1?= =?UTF-8?B?YWMxPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M74c1edb8077ff8ea2c855ac1:1:-IOeCLaQmXPCg0aN2mg1ucXTJc8oBzYQPQLN49aydxI Quoth Don Bailey : > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. 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[Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:47:31 -0500 X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. From: noam@pixelhero.dev In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 533a8cee-bbb4-11ee-b745-b99b232d307c Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NOWVkNDBjMDFlZmI1Y2Y5YTA5Zjc0?= =?UTF-8?B?NjIyPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M9ed40c01efb5cf9a09f74622:1:x3NtH4IDEcExgLUiqP6I9M3qQC_5gmxWbybKsd6IMsc Quoth Don Bailey : > Cool rant. 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:43:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0effcc39-7b03-4a1c-af30-36ffc6d97e2a@app.fastmail.com>

<667E776F-FFFA-49FB-AA5B-61CB56CDB3AD@iitbombay.org>

In-Reply-To: From: Eli Cohen Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 11:43:19 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000e26516060fca6409 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 087c1500-bbba-11ee-9425-cf625bfda7f6 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NOTRlMGRkZWI5NTQ0NDAzOTJjZDk2?= =?UTF-8?B?YTA1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M94e0ddeb954440392cd96a05:1:rPz5MDJZifxnbbuiZYycA-aLXdj-FIaVGXrmY6AyiBo --000000000000e26516060fca6409 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable we've had discussions like this before. I do agree that having a more "original" Plan 9 option like 9legacy is a good idea. in terms of what that actually means doing, a lot of the obvious effort would be to go into turning stuff from 9front into patches for 9legacy. I started to do this to make a patch for dp9ik for 9legacy and I quickly realized how much effort that actually would take On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 11:35 AM Don Bailey wrote: > Sometimes gatekeeping is good. It's OK if folks don't agree. > > I think it's healthy to create a strict regimen around "mainline". I am > not against 9front doing whatever it wants, I just would prefer if the two > did not merge. It's important to keep the 9 ecosystem stable, imo. > > D > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:02=E2=80=AFPM thedaemon via 9fans <9fans@9fans.= net> > wrote: > >> >> Don, you have been gate keeping this whole thread. I see noone agreeing >> with you either. We could all be a little kinder to one another, >> especially since we all have love for Plan 9. >> >> >> =E2=80=94 thed=C3=A6mon =F0=9F=AB=A0 >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:31 AM, Don Bailey > > wrote: >> >> Cool gaslighting. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah wrote: >> >>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44=E2=80=AFAM, Don Bailey = wrote: >>> > >>> > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. >>> > >>> > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. >>> Both as a user and a developer. >>> > >>> > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any >>> interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. >>>=20 >>> 9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong >>> reasons? >>>=20 >> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions > + participants > + delivery options > Permalink > > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M94e0d= deb954440392cd96a05 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000e26516060fca6409 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

we've had discussions like this before. I= do agree that having a more "original" Plan 9 option like 9legac= y is a good idea. in terms of what that actually means doing, a lot of= the obvious effort would be to go into turning stuff from 9front into patc= hes for 9legacy. I started to do this to make a patch for dp9ik for 9legacy= and I quickly realized how much effort that actually would take

On Thu, J= an 25, 2024, 11:35 AM Don Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com> wrote:

Sometimes gatekeeping is good. It's OK if folks d= on't agree.

I think it's healthy to crea= te a strict regimen around "mainline". I am not against 9front do= ing whatever it wants, I just would prefer if the two did not merge. It'= ;s important to keep the 9 ecosystem stable, imo.

D

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 1:02 PM thedaemon via 9fans= <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

Don, you have be= en gate keeping this whole thread. I see noone agreeing with you either.&nb= sp; We could all be a little kinder to one another, especially since we all= have love for Plan 9.

— thedæmon 🫠

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:31 AM, Don Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com> wrote:
Cool gaslighting.

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25 PM Bakul Shah <bak= ul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
On Jan 25, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Don Bailey <don.= bailey@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. <= br /> >
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 alto= gether. Both as a user and a developer.
>
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have a= ny interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.

9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong reaso= ns?

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mb71d859edbb= 24de170bf2c71
Delivery options: https://9fans.topic= box.com/groups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:05:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <611B016F9637C60CA0AE66FDAA35D0D0@eigenstate.org> To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:05:44 -0500 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 26629884-bbbd-11ee-95eb-ed74088c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNDcwNTlkNWViY2ZhMzhkNzBhNzM0?= =?UTF-8?B?YTE5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M47059d5ebcfa38d70a734a19:1:D0MLLh8hAJveV9lzeE5ixtu7yn4us3MQR9FkskCnxk8 Quoth Don Bailey : > Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for 9front, > yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does that > have to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually > designed it? >=20 I'm not sure I understand the point of your question; I work on 9front. There's nothing that qualifies as a mainline Plan 9 since the lights turned off at Bell Labs almost a decade ago; there are just forks like 9legacy and 9front. The people that actually designed it stopped setting direction years before Bell Labs shut down. As a member of the Plan 9 Foundation, I would like to see other people pick up other Plan 9 distributions, and take them in other directions. As far as I can tell, that involves code being written and shared. >=20 > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 7:20=E2=80=AFAM wrote: >=20 > > This email suffers from a lack of semicolons; > > > > Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and > > direction comes from people writing code; once > > the work begins, people are sometimes willing to > > help -- but only once work begins. > > > > Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: > > > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly > > aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of > > distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is > > undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Pl= an 9 > > Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enh= ance > > our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Pla= n 9 > > Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for > > innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared > > passions and expertise. > > > > > > The Need for Modernization > > > > > > Technological Evolution: > > > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's > > last iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovati= on, > > it's essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest > > advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This > > evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable too= l in > > our modern tech toolkit. > > > > > > Security Enhancements: > > > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a > > reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to inclu= de > > cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique > > work we do from emerging cyber risks. > > > > > > Hardware Compatibility: > > > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for > > us. Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only > > preserving its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of > > computing, something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. > > > > > > Fostering Innovation > > > > > > Research and Education: > > > Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed comp= uting has > > always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release > > would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for > > continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we c= an > > achieve with Plan 9. > > > > > > Community Engagement: > > > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is= an > > opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a > > richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 > > Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new > > collaborations and innovations. > > > > > > Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential: > > > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's > > capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, > > and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptabi= lity > > and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. > > > > > > Practical Considerations > > > > > > Resource Allocation: > > > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in > > bringing Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our > > collective knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly > > exploring new partnerships or funding avenues. > > > > > > Backward Compatibility: > > > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work > > and ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 wh= ile > > charting a course for its future. > > > > > > Documentation and Support: > > > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this > > new release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that > > will aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a > > tool we can all be proud of. > > > > > > Conclusion > > > > > > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; > > it=E2=80=99s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has lon= g been at > > the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards > > ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in t= he > > modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of > > research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the > > knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legac= y of > > Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, > > shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story. > > > > > > > > > Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. > > > --vic > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > > > > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: > > > >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think > > that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system.= But > > it is more work than a recompile. > > > >> > > > >> Michael > > > > > > > > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and > > > > linker working on > > > > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in > > > > /sys/src/cmd/cc. > > > > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and deb= ug > > > > the compiler, the linker, and > > > > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it w= hen > > > > I see it. > > > > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M47059= d5ebcfa38d70a734a19 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob21.topicbox.com (tb-ob21.topicbox.com [173.228.157.67]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A76B23025 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 21:14:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob21.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E50724E51 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:14:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMfc3183bd725c8fe0c49db1b0.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id D262DBF4EA9; 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:14:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:14:37 -0500 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 63181b68-bbbe-11ee-a17e-83109a782c59 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZmMzMTgzYmQ3MjVjOGZlMGM0OWRi?= =?UTF-8?B?MWIwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mfc3183bd725c8fe0c49db1b0:1:70eEqIauGBMHRaaGTPYmUfC-J8f1uJNuwxM8Az-GZ2A I'm not sure what a mainline Plan 9 means. Can you define that term, and tell me who maintains it? Quoth Don Bailey : > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. >=20 > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both = as > a user and a developer. >=20 > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any > interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. >=20 > D >=20 > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>= wrote: >=20 > > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I=E2= =80=99d > > prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to on= ly > > receive patches through them. > >=20 > > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a Use= r? > >=20 > > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real > > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would > > "manage" something. for example development and continuous hosting of > > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. > >=20 > > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the > > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last > > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via > > email) received from them. > >=20 > > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" > > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result > > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server > > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and > > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. > >=20 > > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely > > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate > > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community > > members are able to contribute quite effectively. > >=20 > > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay > > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own > > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool > > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with > > blackjack and hookers. In my head. > >=20 > > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what > > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and > > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit > > another patch to sources some day soon. > >=20 > > hiro ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mfc318= 3bd725c8fe0c49db1b0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF1026A26 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 21:30:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAD233BF9 for ; 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:30:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Don Bailey Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:29:57 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000b772ac060fcb0b03 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8d552f04-bbc0-11ee-8dd5-2c8c0a8c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNWVjYTM5MTI5MDcyYzFkYjUxMTI0?= =?UTF-8?B?YTE2Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M5eca39129072c1db51124a16:1:2ZURwsKUCMbhaubQyz6StBgaEeae6RqlpYQWBDD4zYg --000000000000b772ac060fcb0b03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cool assessment, Jung Noam. On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 3:20=E2=80=AFPM wrote: > Quoth Don Bailey : > > Cool rant. >=20 > It's incredible to me that you can put in so much effort to make sure that > the strength of your convictions is clear, while also putting in so little > effort that nobody wants to be around you long enough to find out what th= ey > actually are. >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M5eca3= 9129072c1db51124a16 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000b772ac060fcb0b03 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Cool assessment, Jung Noam.

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 3:20 PM <noam@pixelhero.dev> wrote:

Quoth Don Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com>:
> Cool rant.

It's incredible to me that you can put in so much effort to make sure t= hat
the strength of your convictions is clear, while also putting in so little<= br /> effort that nobody wants to be around you long enough to find out what they=
actually are.

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M9ed40c01efb5cf9a09f746= 22
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 12:37:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:37:26 -0500 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 9366b4fc-bbc1-11ee-a9a2-9ceefb8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNWFlMjE0ZTMyMGRmYTFjNDM2MGE5?= =?UTF-8?B?NzY3Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M5ae214e320dfa1c4360a9767:1:jhXKzGn4GGojBgAe5MJD1uhNAK5u23ES92-0MYFoLfM Quoth Don A. Bailey : > I=E2=80=99d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would > like to only receive patches through them.=20 Speaking as a member of the foundation, we do not manage sources or distribute patches. We do not maintain a Plan 9 distribution, and currently have no plans to do so. Our focus, in line with our charter, is not technical. We focus on growing the Plan 9 community, and providing ways to help the Plan 9 diaspora with their technical work, and helping with the logistics involved in that. An example of the work the P9F may take on would be organizing IWP9. While I have not discussed with the rest of the P9F, I think providing infrastructure to support community projects would also fit our goals. If you have specific ways we can support people like you taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward, please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets discussed at the next P9F meeting. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M5ae21= 4e320dfa1c4360a9767 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C94F23F18 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 22:10:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E00E334DEC for ; 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:09:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: David Arnold Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2024 08:09:46 +1100 Message-Id: <0DE38476-D307-4835-AF29-DA8D69A1B8BE@pobox.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (20H240) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 1934C5C0-BBC6-11EE-98C3-78DCEB2EC81B-29049682!pb-smtp1.pobox.com Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 2140cade-bbc6-11ee-b9c8-cc78d174188c Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2NmMGQzMGZkZWUyNzhhNi1NYWQwMzBhZWVkNThiNzNiNDFiMmY1?= =?UTF-8?B?MDQwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: [9fans] P9F meetings (was: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community) List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mad030aeed58b73b41b2f5040:1:y2aAqf9TKxQiKMhqeHAFRY4SOVkXqxXqhuktcjEb-X4 > On 26 Jan 2024, at 07:38, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: <=E2=80=A6> > If you have specific ways we can support people like you > taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward, > please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets > discussed at the next P9F meeting. Is there any record of P9F meetings? Agendas or minutes? Even recordings o= r transcripts? >From my (admittedly very peripheral) position, the activities of the Founda= tion are almost completely opaque. 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:15:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52D5D743F6C31695B04D8483923981E3@eigenstate.org> To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:15:06 -0500 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: d62f9ad8-bbc6-11ee-b3c8-e604ff8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNTA5NDVlNjIxNDZmYThlNzAwODkw?= =?UTF-8?B?Mjg1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M50945e62146fa8e700890285:1:yroINEf9tSsX0mbr0RbV0whJm8I1St72BJhoXJlOkww Also: We're organizing IWP9 largely as a forum for folks like you to figure out how to make this all happen; there's going to be plenty of time between talks as well as hacking days to figure out what code needs to be written, what patches exist in people's local trees, plenty of napkins (and, if you're lucky, whiteboards) to figure out designs, and even get a head start on it. Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly awa= re of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of distr= ibuted computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is undeniable= . In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 Release 5= beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance our belo= ved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 Release = 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for innovation, an= d the practical considerations that align with our shared passions and expe= rtise. >=20 > The Need for Modernization >=20 > Technological Evolution:=20 > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last= iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's= essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advanceme= nts in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is c= rucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern te= ch toolkit. >=20 > Security Enhancements:=20 > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a rea= lity we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include cutt= ing-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work w= e do from emerging cyber risks. >=20 > Hardware Compatibility:=20 > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us.= Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving i= ts usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, som= ething we, as 9fans, have always embraced. >=20 > Fostering Innovation >=20 > Research and Education:=20 > Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed computin= g has always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new relea= se would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for= continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can = achieve with Plan 9. >=20 > Community Engagement: > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an = opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a rich= er ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5= could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations a= nd innovations. >=20 > Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential:=20 > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabiliti= es, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distribu= ted systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and forward= -thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. >=20 > Practical Considerations >=20 > Resource Allocation:=20 > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing= Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective knowl= edge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new partne= rships or funding avenues. >=20 > Backward Compatibility: > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work an= d ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while ch= arting a course for its future. >=20 > Documentation and Support:=20 > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this ne= w release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will= aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we= can all be proud of. >=20 > Conclusion >=20 > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it= =E2=80=99s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been= at the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards= ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the = modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of rese= arch, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, = and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 whi= le shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the n= ext chapter in the Plan 9 story. >=20 >=20 > Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. > --vic >=20 > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: > >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think th= at it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But i= t is more work than a recompile. > >>=20 > >> Michael=20 > >=20 > > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and > > linker working on > > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in > > /sys/src/cmd/cc. > > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug > > the compiler, the linker, and > > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when > > I see it. > >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M50945= e62146fa8e700890285 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B14A23F19 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 22:15:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32FCF19C38 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:15:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM60f64be129dba1a4a40268e7.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 2CF86A5542E; 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:15:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2A9D731F59EE68918E3D7E54F21B364A@eigenstate.org> To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:15:37 -0500 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: e8f4c864-bbc6-11ee-8bd3-c32f0e34932b Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNjBmNjRiZTEyOWRiYTFhNGE0MDI2?= =?UTF-8?B?OGU3Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M60f64be129dba1a4a40268e7:1:IvtQrAsKhKuvAXkgPAjndFB8WZEuN83BztLdzlLO8z4 Also: We're organizing IWP9 largely as a forum for folks like you to figure out how to make this all happen; there's going to be plenty of time between talks as well as hacking days to figure out what code needs to be written, what patches exist in people's local trees, plenty of napkins (and, if you're lucky, whiteboards) to figure out designs, and even get a head start on it. Considering submitting some WIP or opinion papers on the details of how you plan to accomplish this. Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly awa= re of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of distr= ibuted computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is undeniable= . In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 Release 5= beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance our belo= ved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 Release = 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for innovation, an= d the practical considerations that align with our shared passions and expe= rtise. >=20 > The Need for Modernization >=20 > Technological Evolution:=20 > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last= iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's= essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advanceme= nts in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is c= rucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern te= ch toolkit. >=20 > Security Enhancements:=20 > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a rea= lity we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include cutt= ing-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work w= e do from emerging cyber risks. >=20 > Hardware Compatibility:=20 > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us.= Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving i= ts usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, som= ething we, as 9fans, have always embraced. >=20 > Fostering Innovation >=20 > Research and Education:=20 > Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed computin= g has always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new relea= se would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for= continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can = achieve with Plan 9. >=20 > Community Engagement: > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an = opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a rich= er ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5= could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations a= nd innovations. >=20 > Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential:=20 > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabiliti= es, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distribu= ted systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and forward= -thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. >=20 > Practical Considerations >=20 > Resource Allocation:=20 > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing= Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective knowl= edge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new partne= rships or funding avenues. >=20 > Backward Compatibility: > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work an= d ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while ch= arting a course for its future. >=20 > Documentation and Support:=20 > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this ne= w release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will= aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we= can all be proud of. >=20 > Conclusion >=20 > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it= =E2=80=99s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been= at the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards= ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the = modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of rese= arch, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, = and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 whi= le shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the n= ext chapter in the Plan 9 story. >=20 >=20 > Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. > --vic >=20 > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: > >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think th= at it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But i= t is more work than a recompile. > >>=20 > >> Michael=20 > >=20 > > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and > > linker working on > > 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in > > /sys/src/cmd/cc. > > So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug > > the compiler, the linker, and > > the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when > > I see it. > >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M60f64= be129dba1a4a40268e7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob21.topicbox.com (tb-ob21.topicbox.com [173.228.157.67]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F8B24A92 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 22:16:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob21.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8258C25C19 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:16:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMd716ed53a2f48228ea3af9da.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 32C78BF96B0; 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:382:411:a1b8:c0aa:a48e:d1b5:59a0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h129-20020a816c87000000b005e1a5593c0csm903312ywc.60.2024.01.25.13.16.11 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:16:12 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Don A. Bailey" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:16:00 -0500 Message-Id: <6947B9DC-079A-404C-A5EB-A2988BA0D3DD@gmail.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21C66) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: fabdd2ca-bbc6-11ee-a2dd-2716ff8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZDcxNmVkNTNhMmY0ODIyOGVhM2Fm?= =?UTF-8?B?OWRhPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Md716ed53a2f48228ea3af9da:1:2oKfTOC1JwiVQqP9o62hcgNhFz9UiYKkC74ydBFGkko I=E2=80=99ve literally never even seen your name before.=20 > On Jan 25, 2024, at 3:45=E2=80=AFPM, Michael Misch wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThis is incredibly rude and tone-deaf. Your convictions aside, d= ismissing an opinion like this is simply stonewalling, and quite frankly ob= literated whatever respect I may have started to develop for you. >=20 >> On Jan 25, 2024, at 08:44, Don Bailey wrote: >>=20 >> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. >>=20 >> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both= as a user and a developer. >>=20 >> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any int= erest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. >>=20 >> D >>=20 >>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40=E2=80=AFAM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.ne= t> wrote: >>> I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I=E2= =80=99d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like t= o only receive patches through them. >>=20 >> Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User? >>=20 >> Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real >> bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would >> "manage" something. for example development and continuous hosting of >> the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. >>=20 >> I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the >> foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last >> few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via >> email) received from them. >>=20 >> I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" >> is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result >> the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server >> resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and >> community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. >>=20 >> It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely >> contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate >> with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community >> members are able to contribute quite effectively. >>=20 >> To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay >> alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own >> team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool >> kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with >> blackjack and hookers. In my head. >>=20 >> Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what >> I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and >> keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit >> another patch to sources some day soon. >>=20 >> hiro >> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permal= ink ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Md716e= d53a2f48228ea3af9da Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MIME_HTML_ONLY,MIME_HTML_ONLY_MULTI,MPART_ALT_DIFF,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682F72469F for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 22:18:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1914F35715 for ; 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Bailey" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. 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Yeah but we don’t necessarily need patches from 9front= . The ones of good quality are really already being pulled in. Cinap does a= lot of solid work.

My only issue is seeing the two maintain a strong delineation, which I ob= viously prefer.

On Jan 25, 2024, at 4:= 04 PM, Eli Cohen <echoline@gmail.com> wrote:

we've had discussions like this before. I do agree that having a= more "original" Plan 9 option like 9legacy is a good idea. in te= rms of what that actually means doing, a lot of the obvious effort wou= ld be to go into turning stuff from 9front into patches for 9legacy. I star= ted to do this to make a patch for dp9ik for 9legacy and I quickly realized= how much effort that actually would take

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 11:35 AM D= on Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
S= ometimes gatekeeping is good. It's OK if folks don't agree.
I think it's healthy to create a strict regimen aro= und "mainline". I am not against 9front doing whatever it wants, = I just would prefer if the two did not merge. It's important to keep th= e 9 ecosystem stable, imo.

D
On Thu= , Jan 25, 2024 at 1:02 PM thedaemon via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net&g= t; wrote:

Don, you have been gate keeping this wh= ole thread. I see noone agreeing with you either. We could all be a l= ittle kinder to one another, especially since we all have love for Plan 9.&= nbsp;

— thed&= aelig;mon 🫠

On Thu, Ja= n 25, 2024 at 11:31 AM, Don Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com> wrote:
Cool gaslighting.

On Thu,= Jan 25, 2024 at 12:25 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org>= ; wrote:
On Ja= n 25, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Don Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. <= br /> >
> If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 alto= gether. Both as a user and a developer.
>
> I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have a= ny interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be.

9front is eminently usable. May be you are rejecting it for the wrong reaso= ns?

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mb71d859edbb= 24de170bf2c71
Delivery options: https://9fans.topic= box.com/groups/9fans/subscription
=

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:23:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6DAC9F8BDEAD4994AA8DC2DE886E226C@eigenstate.org> To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: [9fans] P9F meetings (was: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:23:13 -0500 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: <0DE38476-D307-4835-AF29-DA8D69A1B8BE@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: f835b9d6-bbc7-11ee-bddb-20b8ff8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2NmMGQzMGZkZWUyNzhhNi1NOGQ1ZmY2YmM4ZDk1ODdiZjYzZjFl?= =?UTF-8?B?OTZhPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M8d5ff6bc8d9587bf63f1e96a:1:PBE2b-9O1ZchhUkt5b5QVfj8yNrXdUL2HFxLp9MhX1o Quoth David Arnold : > > On 26 Jan 2024, at 07:38, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: >=20 > <=E2=80=A6> >=20 > > If you have specific ways we can support people like you > > taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward, > > please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets > > discussed at the next P9F meeting. >=20 > Is there any record of P9F meetings? Agendas or minutes? Even recordings= or transcripts? >=20 > From my (admittedly very peripheral) position, the activities of the Foun= dation are almost completely opaque. It=E2=80=99d be great to see some more= of its activity.=20 >=20 I'm not aware of any public record at the moment; Speaking purely for myself, it seems like a good idea to post a regular summary. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3cf0d30fdee278a6-M8d5ff= 6bc8d9587bf63f1e96a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08A2216BB for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 22:29:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA37E35CE7 for ; 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:29:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:382:411:a1b8:c0aa:a48e:d1b5:59a0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x23-20020a25acd7000000b00dbed7110107sm3731970ybd.12.2024.01.25.13.29.36 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:29:36 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Don A. Bailey" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 16:29:25 -0500 Message-Id: <29326B71-DA4C-44CC-AE10-D6F633AC2F37@gmail.com> References: <611B016F9637C60CA0AE66FDAA35D0D0@eigenstate.org> In-Reply-To: <611B016F9637C60CA0AE66FDAA35D0D0@eigenstate.org> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21C66) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: da0d975c-bbc8-11ee-a0d9-d47e2e5d66b7 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNTYzODUwOTg5NTNmZTY0Yjg5MjM0?= =?UTF-8?B?ODQ1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M56385098953fe64b89234845:1:ckQPkfkfg1mjUv9gKF_HoC1zRNTA7QKIKNZb6jvBV3o That=E2=80=99s why I use quotes around mainline.=20 And what you stated is also a big reason I=E2=80=99m not interested in 9fro= nt. No idea what your direction is or what your interests are. I like a lot= of the things done by the core team, and the direction set by them. I=E2= =80=99m not interested in 9front.=20 Seeing a stable legacy release is imperative, in my opinion. That=E2=80=99s= all. I=E2=80=99d rather it wasn=E2=80=99t merged.=20 > On Jan 25, 2024, at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFQuoth Don Bailey : >> Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for 9fron= t, >> yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does that >> have to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually >> designed it? >>=20 >=20 > I'm not sure I understand the point of your question; I work on > 9front. There's nothing that qualifies as a mainline Plan 9 > since the lights turned off at Bell Labs almost a decade ago; > there are just forks like 9legacy and 9front. >=20 > The people that actually designed it stopped setting direction > years before Bell Labs shut down. >=20 > As a member of the Plan 9 Foundation, I would like to see other > people pick up other Plan 9 distributions, and take them in > other directions. >=20 > As far as I can tell, that involves code being written and > shared. >=20 >>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 7:20=E2=80=AFAM wrote: >>>=20 >>> This email suffers from a lack of semicolons; >>>=20 >>> Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and >>> direction comes from people writing code; once >>> the work begins, people are sometimes willing to >>> help -- but only once work begins. >>>=20 >>> Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: >>>> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly >>> aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of >>> distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is >>> undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Pl= an 9 >>> Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enh= ance >>> our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Pla= n 9 >>> Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for >>> innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared >>> passions and expertise. >>>>=20 >>>> The Need for Modernization >>>>=20 >>>> Technological Evolution: >>>> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's >>> last iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovati= on, >>> it's essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest >>> advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This >>> evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable too= l in >>> our modern tech toolkit. >>>>=20 >>>> Security Enhancements: >>>> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a >>> reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to inclu= de >>> cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique >>> work we do from emerging cyber risks. >>>>=20 >>>> Hardware Compatibility: >>>> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for >>> us. Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only >>> preserving its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of >>> computing, something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. >>>>=20 >>>> Fostering Innovation >>>>=20 >>>> Research and Education: >>>> Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed compu= ting has >>> always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release >>> would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for >>> continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we c= an >>> achieve with Plan 9. >>>>=20 >>>> Community Engagement: >>>> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is = an >>> opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a >>> richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 >>> Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new >>> collaborations and innovations. >>>>=20 >>>> Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential: >>>> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's >>> capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, >>> and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptabi= lity >>> and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. >>>>=20 >>>> Practical Considerations >>>>=20 >>>> Resource Allocation: >>>> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in >>> bringing Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our >>> collective knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly >>> exploring new partnerships or funding avenues. >>>>=20 >>>> Backward Compatibility: >>>> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work >>> and ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 wh= ile >>> charting a course for its future. >>>>=20 >>>> Documentation and Support: >>>> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this >>> new release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that >>> will aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a >>> tool we can all be proud of. >>>>=20 >>>> Conclusion >>>>=20 >>>> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; >>> it=E2=80=99s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has lon= g been at >>> the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards >>> ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in t= he >>> modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of >>> research, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the >>> knowledge, and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legac= y of >>> Plan 9 while shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, >>> shaping the next chapter in the Plan 9 story. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. >>>> --vic >>>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: >>>>> On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: >>>>>> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think >>> that it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system.= But >>> it is more work than a recompile. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Michael >>>>>=20 >>>>> It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and >>>>> linker working on >>>>> 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in >>>>> /sys/src/cmd/cc. >>>>> So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug >>>>> the compiler, the linker, and >>>>> the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". I'll believe it when >>>>> I see it. >>>>>=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M56385= 098953fe64b89234845 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C3F121354 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 23:03:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FAA41BC65 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 17:03:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMdc44d72890313df37199cd1c.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 3CA1BBFC5C4; 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Bailey" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 17:03:22 -0500 Message-Id: <44CCB20A-B9C9-4FA7-B3A9-3E54EFEE4BD8@gmail.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21C66) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 9907950a-bbcd-11ee-bae9-aaeeb90ae5f0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZGM0NGQ3Mjg5MDMxM2RmMzcxOTlj?= =?UTF-8?B?ZDFjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mdc44d72890313df37199cd1c:1:G_jeWE2Elah9p99JsXz5vjeO5dlFakikppOnkefG_8w I=E2=80=99m aware you=E2=80=99re a member of the foundation. What I want I think I=E2=80=99ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal = release of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not = want 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term =E2=80=9Cmainline=E2=80= =9D (9legacy / 9pio updated patch sets). I=E2=80=99d rather 9front stay its= own thing. I=E2=80=99m certain there are a lot of relevant contributions w= ithin 9front but I think its place is as its own niche system. Thanks!=20 > On Jan 25, 2024, at 4:55=E2=80=AFPM, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFQuoth Don A. Bailey : >> I=E2=80=99d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would >> like to only receive patches through them. >=20 > Speaking as a member of the foundation, we do not manage sources > or distribute patches. We do not maintain a Plan 9 distribution, > and currently have no plans to do so. >=20 > Our focus, in line with our charter, is not technical. We focus > on growing the Plan 9 community, and providing ways to help the > Plan 9 diaspora with their technical work, and helping with the > logistics involved in that. An example of the work the P9F may > take on would be organizing IWP9. >=20 > While I have not discussed with the rest of the P9F, I think > providing infrastructure to support community projects would > also fit our goals. >=20 > If you have specific ways we can support people like you > taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward, > please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets > discussed at the next P9F meeting. >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mdc44d= 72890313df37199cd1c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5800B27409 for ; 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[Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Content-Language: en-US To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <44CCB20A-B9C9-4FA7-B3A9-3E54EFEE4BD8@gmail.com> From: Jacob Moody In-Reply-To: <44CCB20A-B9C9-4FA7-B3A9-3E54EFEE4BD8@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: c3a5f4a8-bbcf-11ee-840a-8154048c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNzZmNDc1N2UwYjA4YzQyY2NkNjU5?= =?UTF-8?B?MzkwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M76f4757e0b08c42ccd659390:1:p8Kv0Ag6Qy0WAFIG5FF6dPtiJ9xw0yFXEnvpSBifxO8 On 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote: > I=E2=80=99m aware you=E2=80=99re a member of the foundation. >=20 > What I want I think I=E2=80=99ve made clear. I do not want to see a forma= l release of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do no= t want 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term =E2=80=9Cmainline=E2= =80=9D (9legacy / 9pio updated patch sets). I=E2=80=99d rather 9front stay = its own thing. I=E2=80=99m certain there are a lot of relevant contribution= s within 9front but I think its place is as its own niche system. >=20 Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think this = temper tantrum you've been throwing on this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work with/for= you? It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code) but hav= e no interest in making any effort yourself to make that a reality. 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 14:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:382:411:a1b8:c0aa:a48e:d1b5:59a0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d134-20020a0ddb8c000000b005ffd1bf706fsm950972ywe.96.2024.01.25.14.31.49 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Jan 2024 14:31:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Don A. Bailey" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [9fans] P9F meetings (was: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 17:31:39 -0500 Message-Id: <3AC7979F-854C-46DE-AB90-11D1830701B5@gmail.com> References: <0DE38476-D307-4835-AF29-DA8D69A1B8BE@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <0DE38476-D307-4835-AF29-DA8D69A1B8BE@pobox.com> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21C66) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8b98f496-bbd1-11ee-8eaa-953e96672399 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2NmMGQzMGZkZWUyNzhhNi1NYjRmNGEyMWEzZjY0MGRkOGUxMzA5?= =?UTF-8?B?MWViPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mb4f4a21a3f640dd8e13091eb:1:64e_AwdbZ9lvqq-nmGYmkE7PVQ9ow0-NK34b1l0BdV0 Hard agree.=20 > On Jan 25, 2024, at 5:30=E2=80=AFPM, David Arnold wrot= e: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> On 26 Jan 2024, at 07:38, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: >=20 > <=E2=80=A6> >=20 >> If you have specific ways we can support people like you >> taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward, >> please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets >> discussed at the next P9F meeting. >=20 > Is there any record of P9F meetings? Agendas or minutes? Even recordings= or transcripts? >=20 > From my (admittedly very peripheral) position, the activities of the Foun= dation are almost completely opaque. It=E2=80=99d be great to see some more= of its activity. >=20 > d >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3cf0d30fdee278a6-Mb4f4a= 21a3f640dd8e13091eb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF531217BF for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2024 23:38:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5EA1C718 for ; 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Bailey" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 17:38:18 -0500 Message-Id: References: <2A9D731F59EE68918E3D7E54F21B364A@eigenstate.org> In-Reply-To: <2A9D731F59EE68918E3D7E54F21B364A@eigenstate.org> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21C66) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 795de2b8-bbd2-11ee-8a85-a2146a325df4 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NZDhiZGE0ZDFlN2FmN2VjZGZlZjk4?= =?UTF-8?B?YjhlPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Md8bda4d1e7af7ecdfef98b8e:1:8FF53HNUBTr5FEopPEjSNB278gz82MTucOZ_dJKfL4c Last I checked (you) were asking for people to sign up. What=E2=80=99s the = actual attendee count at this point?=20 > On Jan 25, 2024, at 5:33=E2=80=AFPM, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAlso: We're organizing IWP9 largely as a forum > for folks like you to figure out how to make this > all happen; there's going to be plenty of time > between talks as well as hacking days to figure > out what code needs to be written, what patches > exist in people's local trees, plenty of napkins > (and, if you're lucky, whiteboards) to figure out > designs, and even get a head start on it. >=20 > Considering submitting some WIP or opinion papers > on the details of how you plan to accomplish this. >=20 > Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: >> Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aw= are of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of dist= ributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is undeniabl= e. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 Release = 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance our bel= oved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 Release= 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for innovation, a= nd the practical considerations that align with our shared passions and exp= ertise. >>=20 >> The Need for Modernization >>=20 >> Technological Evolution: >> We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's las= t iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it'= s essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advancem= ents in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is = crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern t= ech toolkit. >>=20 >> Security Enhancements: >> In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a re= ality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include cut= ting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work = we do from emerging cyber risks. >>=20 >> Hardware Compatibility: >> The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us= . Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving = its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, so= mething we, as 9fans, have always embraced. >>=20 >> Fostering Innovation >>=20 >> Research and Education: >> Plan 9=E2=80=99s novel approach to system design and distributed computi= ng has always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new rele= ase would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform fo= r continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can= achieve with Plan 9. >>=20 >> Community Engagement: >> A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an= opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a ric= her ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release = 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations = and innovations. >>=20 >> Showcasing Plan 9=E2=80=99s Potential: >> Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilit= ies, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distrib= uted systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and forwar= d-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. >>=20 >> Practical Considerations >>=20 >> Resource Allocation: >> We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringin= g Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective know= ledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new partn= erships or funding avenues. >>=20 >> Backward Compatibility: >> Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work a= nd ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while c= harting a course for its future. >>=20 >> Documentation and Support: >> Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this n= ew release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that wil= l aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool w= e can all be proud of. >>=20 >> Conclusion >>=20 >> The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it= =E2=80=99s a reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been= at the vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards= ensuring Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the = modern era. It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of rese= arch, education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, = and the community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 whi= le shaping its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the n= ext chapter in the Plan 9 story. >>=20 >>=20 >> Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. >> --vic >>=20 >>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: >>> On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: >>>> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think th= at it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But i= t is more work than a recompile. >>>>=20 >>>> Michael >>>=20 >>> It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and >>> linker working on >>> 9legacy is already not what I would consider trivial due to drift in >>> /sys/src/cmd/cc. >>> So yes if you have enough understanding on how to work with and debug >>> the compiler, the linker, and >>> the kernel then perhaps you could call it "easy". 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 14:40:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2FBD361ED84F08CE8736B0E845B12316@eigenstate.org> To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 17:40:25 -0500 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: <44CCB20A-B9C9-4FA7-B3A9-3E54EFEE4BD8@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: c11b4690-bbd2-11ee-98ce-d4dae7d4b93b Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NYzllMDFmYTdjZWVmNDc1NjZkZTM0?= =?UTF-8?B?Zjc2Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mc9e01fa7ceef47566de34f76:1:l5iInEH4c1T7E8llUxJ17RBjZSV4QNFCqKDe2-GxnJE Great; let me repeat one more time: The Plan 9 foundation does not currently engage in technical work such as putting together releases. There will be no release from the P9F including 9front code, because there will be no release from the P9F. If you feel the need for a release, I encourage you to make one. If you feel your release is insufficently formal, I suggest renting a tux. Quoth Don A. Bailey : > I=E2=80=99m aware you=E2=80=99re a member of the foundation. >=20 > What I want I think I=E2=80=99ve made clear. I do not want to see a forma= l release of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do no= t want 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term =E2=80=9Cmainline=E2= =80=9D (9legacy / 9pio updated patch sets). I=E2=80=99d rather 9front stay = its own thing. I=E2=80=99m certain there are a lot of relevant contribution= s within 9front but I think its place is as its own niche system. >=20 > Thanks!=20 >=20 >=20 > > On Jan 25, 2024, at 4:55=E2=80=AFPM, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: > >=20 > > =EF=BB=BFQuoth Don A. Bailey : > >> I=E2=80=99d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and wou= ld > >> like to only receive patches through them. > >=20 > > Speaking as a member of the foundation, we do not manage sources > > or distribute patches. We do not maintain a Plan 9 distribution, > > and currently have no plans to do so. > >=20 > > Our focus, in line with our charter, is not technical. We focus > > on growing the Plan 9 community, and providing ways to help the > > Plan 9 diaspora with their technical work, and helping with the > > logistics involved in that. An example of the work the P9F may > > take on would be organizing IWP9. > >=20 > > While I have not discussed with the rest of the P9F, I think > > providing infrastructure to support community projects would > > also fit our goals. > >=20 > > If you have specific ways we can support people like you > > taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward, > > please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets > > discussed at the next P9F meeting. > >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mc9e01= fa7ceef47566de34f76 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9BD23E79 for ; 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Bailey" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 18:38:54 -0500 Message-Id: <06D0611F-6792-43D7-AEFF-30BE2A442A5A@gmail.com> References: <9fe838ef-f8d1-474d-8fb1-61423e94b77a@posixcafe.org> In-Reply-To: <9fe838ef-f8d1-474d-8fb1-61423e94b77a@posixcafe.org> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21C66) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: f1c65c5a-bbda-11ee-942f-7c9efb8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NNDVmNDQ0NzQ3Yzk5NDQ3ZGEyOTU4?= =?UTF-8?B?NWFmPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M45f444747c99447da29585af:1:rg_GBHIgKWC4vcjzcyRF0p6RZSGDRDWahG2jsOo2y74 It=E2=80=99s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantr= um. A major problem with people=E2=80=99s perspective of 9front and the cur= rent plan 9 community, honestly.=20 > On Jan 25, 2024, at 6:35=E2=80=AFPM, Jacob Moody wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote: >> I=E2=80=99m aware you=E2=80=99re a member of the foundation. >>=20 >> What I want I think I=E2=80=99ve made clear. I do not want to see a form= al release of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do n= ot want 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term =E2=80=9Cmainline=E2= =80=9D (9legacy / 9pio updated patch sets). I=E2=80=99d rather 9front stay = its own thing. I=E2=80=99m certain there are a lot of relevant contribution= s within 9front but I think its place is as its own niche system. >>=20 >=20 > Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think thi= s temper tantrum you've been throwing on > this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work with/f= or you? > It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code) but h= ave no interest in making any effort > yourself to make that a reality. >=20 > I await your "better" plan 9. >=20 > - moody >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M45f44= 4747c99447da29585af Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob20.topicbox.com (tb-ob20.topicbox.com [173.228.157.66]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE07232A9 for ; 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Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:40:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <611B016F9637C60CA0AE66FDAA35D0D0@eigenstate.org> In-Reply-To: <611B016F9637C60CA0AE66FDAA35D0D0@eigenstate.org> From: Charles Forsyth Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 23:40:33 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00000000000059c097060fcdb53a Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 2de0c360-bbdb-11ee-b32b-9bc2fb8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NOGY4NDU0OTBjOTE4ZGNjNWQyMmRk?= =?UTF-8?B?ZTAyPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M8f845490c918dcc5d22dde02:1:F23xzP2kbjUooUYYcnjybKP7E74XpceOb4r5KtMtIJU --00000000000059c097060fcdb53a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hold your hand, my lord! > I have served you ever since I was a child. > But better service have I never done you > Than now to bid you hold. (King Lear, First Servant) I think it's a mistake to split into factions. The collective is small enough that it's almost like the joke about someone being so fractious that if they were in a room by themselves, they'd argue with themselves for practice. I mainly run a 9 version that's several years old, give or take some Raspberry Pi HAT devices, just because I've had to earn my keep doing non-Plan 9 work for nearly 8 years and that Other contracting has consumed enough time I haven't got much spare time. Ada, C++, C#. (Good things too: I suddenly got to develop single page applications in JavaScript with Vue.js and I quite liked both of those and immediately rewrote from C# to Go.) Last iwp9 in Waterloo last year, I was finally able to interact after many years with both 9legacy and 9front people. During the summer, I attended a 9front hackathon in Brooklyn, where by circumstance I wasn't at all useful in the hackathon part, for various reasons irrelevant here, one of them being an unexpected transit time between Brooklyn and Midtown, *but* I did have a chance to interact for the first time with a large group of 9front people. Whatever it might have been when 9front kicked off, it now has a structure, a technical competence, a real interest in 9 ideas, and lots of people discussing things and beavering away (more than I was). I've imported 9front code both into the compilers and the kernels, for instance for embedded wifi support. It's sometimes not easy on the app and kernel side because there has been big divergence, but then again, the chief benefit of trade is difference, so perhaps it's not a bad thing. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M8f845= 490c918dcc5d22dde02 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --00000000000059c097060fcdb53a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hold your hand, my lord!
I have served you ever s= ince I was a child.
But better service have I never done you
Than= now to bid you hold.

(King Lear, First S= ervant)

I think it's a mistake to split into= factions. The collective is small enough that it's almost like the jok= e about someone

being so fractious that if they were in a room by= themselves, they'd argue with themselves for practice.

I mainly run a 9 version that's several years old, give or = take some Raspberry Pi HAT devices, just because I've had to

= earn my keep doing non-Plan 9 work for nearly 8 years and that Other contra= cting has consumed enough time I haven't got much spare time.

Ada, C++, C#. (Good things too: I suddenly got to develop single pag= e applications in JavaScript with Vue.js and I quite liked both of those an= d

immediately rewrote from C# to Go.)

<= /div>

Last iwp9 in Waterloo last year, I was finally able to inter= act after many years with both 9legacy and 9front people.

Du= ring the summer, I attended a 9front hackathon in Brooklyn, where by circum= stance I wasn't at all useful in the hackathon part,

fo= r various reasons irrelevant here, one of them being an unexpected transit = time between Brooklyn and Midtown,

but I did have a c= hance to interact for the first time with a large group of 9front people.

Whatever it might have been when 9front kicked off, it now has a s= tructure, a technical competence, a real interest in 9 ideas,

and= lots of people discussing things and beavering away (more than I was).

I've imported 9front code both into the compile= rs and the kernels, for instance for embedded wifi support.

It's sometimes not easy on the app and kernel side because there has b= een big divergence, but then again, the chief benefit of trade is differenc= e,

so perhaps it's not a bad thing.

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= --17062838641.23C1BEB3.82196-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (tb-ob0.topicbox.com [64.147.108.117]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBD42868E for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2024 20:23:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9A42C801 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2024 14:23:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM27e6920e1f6dd1ee0d797fdd.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id D88D6C1DA92; Fri, 26 Jan 2024 14:23:54 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:from:list-unsubscribe; s= dkim-1; t=1706297034; x=1706383434; bh=12QWHsVzjISS9meMGPtr5+OTp PIyZcP+/qlvRiEk1T0=; b=SkWP9TShwLPU7zW82INTrb2aafdH7gQ9IAouaQs2x AqVGgzMdFHlBWicNT1MYZiYz+POCo6JaFC/xCPI6cxK4X05m4BZlVG2QywN/nIv7 Jg+tWq1DgIMyyP2xLvJyesXQVfLG3YG27SE0iYN8prg0gkHBcsT51M6z4SdS6LSh Ug= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks] Message-Id: <17062970290.9bFDd.570674@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <83E4336EACC51025E08A98BF40F0414F@pixelhero.dev> <17062838640.98bdA1.82196@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: <17062838640.98bdA1.82196@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2024 14:23:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=17062970291.DCeF.570674 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 6ed9394c-bc80-11ee-9654-cdda202d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNDJmMTFlMDI2NWJjZmExOC1NMjdlNjkyMGUxZjZkZDFlZTBkNzk3?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmRkPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> From: "g_patrickb via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M27e6920e1f6dd1ee0d797fdd:1:hn9UD4yoOOEFMIi5uUViITe8rfQsEh7vd2X-5Fx2kh8 --17062970291.DCeF.570674 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2024 14:23:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If the complaint is that the forks of Plan 9 from Bell Labs are not "mainli= ne" because they are not the original Labs' Plan 9, then damn the creators = of Plan 9 for creating their own C compiler and not using mainline C. And damn those who did not stick with K&R C and demanded ANSI C and ISO C. The base of Coraid is Plan 9, but it has been modified. PIX firewall. Don b= etter call Brantley Coile. Scratch those ports from Erik Quanstrom from 9atom. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M27e69= 20e1f6dd1ee0d797fdd Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --17062970291.DCeF.570674 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2024 14:23:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If the complaint is that the forks of Plan 9 f= rom Bell Labs are not "mainline" because they are not the origina= l Labs' Plan 9, then damn the creators of Plan 9 for creating their own= C compiler and not using mainline C.

And = damn those who did not stick with K&R C and demanded ANSI C and ISO C.<= br />

The base of Coraid is Plan 9, but it has b= een modified. PIX firewall. Don better call Brantley Coile.

= --17062970291.DCeF.570674-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: