[9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Joel Salomon]

For my next homework in my Operating Systems class, the professor has
assigned the equivalent of a simple libthread.  I’ve been looking
through the libthread code and getting lost ☹.  I don’t need procs,
only threads (except for the oh-so-fun complication of user-level
pre-emptive scheduling, but I can worry about that mañana).  I do,
however, need to create per-thread stacks, probably by massaging
jmp_bufs in malloc()ed memory.

Where in libthread does the stack get set up, and could somebody
please give me a high-level overview of what the code is doing?

Thanks, --Joel

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Joel Salomon]

> Where in libthread does the stack get set up, and could somebody
> please give me a high-level overview of what the code is doing?

Specifically, in create.c, what is newthread doing—and how?  Unless
that is the wrong place to look, in which case I really am lost.

--Joel

Re: [9fans]

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> I’ve been looking
> through the libthread code and getting lost ☹.

might want to also checkout Russ' libtask (at swtch.com).

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Bruce Ellis]

I think you are lost, and not many people want to do your homework.

brucee

On 11/14/06, Joel Salomon <joelcsalomon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Where in libthread does the stack get set up, and could somebody
> > please give me a high-level overview of what the code is doing?
>
> Specifically, in create.c, what is newthread doing—and how?  Unless
> that is the wrong place to look, in which case I really am lost.
>
> --Joel
>

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Gorka guardiola]

Take a look at the implementation of set_jmp and long_jmp in assembler.
Take a look also at the messages about the stack I originated in
9fans not very long (a year?) ago. Once you understand how the stack
works, things should be smoother.

On 11/14/06, Joel Salomon <joelcsalomon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Where in libthread does the stack get set up, and could somebody
> > please give me a high-level overview of what the code is doing?
>
> Specifically, in create.c, what is newthread doing—and how?  Unless
> that is the wrong place to look, in which case I really am lost.
>
> --Joel
>


-- 
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Russ Cox]

Newthread is creating a bunch of data structures.
You really care about _threadinitstack (386.c) and setjmp(2).
"tos" means top of stack.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Joel Salomon]

> You really care about _threadinitstack (386.c) and setjmp(2).
> "tos" means top of stack.

That's what I was looking for; thanks.

--Joel

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Joel Salomon]

On 11/14/06, Gorka guardiola <paurea@gmail.com> wrote:
> Take a look also at the messages about the stack I originated in
> 9fans not very long (a year?) ago. Once you understand how the stack
> works, things should be smoother.

Found it: <http://9fans.net/archive/2006/03/75>, and am printing the
thread for reference.

Reminder to self: reread /sys/doc/compiler.ps regarding stack growth direction.

--Joel

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Joel Salomon]

On 11/14/06, Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:
> might want to also checkout Russ' libtask (at swtch.com).

That'll be more useful later, when I'm working on the scheduling.  I
was asking about stack creation though; my professor gave us sample
code for use under Linux (very similar to libtask's) and I wanted
pointers on how to translate that to Plan 9.

The final project won't much look like a back-ported libtask, though;
it'll be a bastardized uniprocessor kernel.  Good learning project,
but not of general use.

Thanks for the pointers,
--Joel

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Taj Khattra]

> might want to also checkout Russ' libtask (at swtch.com).

another one is the implementation of the Thread, Sem and Chan
interfaces in dave hanson's cii
(http://www.cs.princeton.edu/software/cii/).  chapter 20 has the gory
details.

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[William Josephson]

On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 10:03:09PM -0500, Joel Salomon wrote:
> On 11/14/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
> >You really care about _threadinitstack (386.c) and setjmp(2).
> >"tos" means top of stack.
>
> What does the line
>        tos = (ulong*)&t->stk[t->stksize&~7];
> specifically stksize&~7, mean?

Um.  It means just what it says :-) I.e. round
down to the nearest multiple of 8 by clearing
the low three bits.  Recall which way the stack
grows on IA-32...

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Joel Salomon]

On 11/14/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
> You really care about _threadinitstack (386.c) and setjmp(2).
> "tos" means top of stack.

What does the line
        tos = (ulong*)&t->stk[t->stksize&~7];
specifically stksize&~7, mean?

--Joel

Re: [9fans] Creating a custom jmp_buf; libthread implementation question

[Russ Cox]

>         tos = (ulong*)&t->stk[t->stksize&~7];

t->stksize&~7 is the bit-fiddly yet idiomatic way
to round stksize down to a multiple of 8.
Since t->stk is 8-aligned already, this makes
sure that tos is 8-aligned.

Russ

Re: [9fans]

[Dan Cross]

On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 6:34 PM Romano <unobe@cpan.org> wrote:
> References: <CAOw7k5hWStzajH5PmhEEyh1PFQCwiGZR7YsqB1E0+bkE9XxjRA@mail.gmail.com>
> Subject: RUDP and/or others
>
> I know this is from a thread almost 8 years old on 9fans.
>
> I'm ignorant of why RUDP wasn't used in lieu of TCP for 9P
> connections.  Anyone know the whys and wherefores (either technical,
> historical, or political)?  I had read earlier that TCP was used in
> lieu of IL (another transport protocol developed for Plan 9) due to
> performance over long-distance connections.  Did RUDP just not cut it
> in some other way for the needs of sending/receiving 9P messages?
> From the description in ip(3), it seems to have the nice behavior of
> resuming communication when a machine reboots.  Is it due to the
> middle boxes/firewalls that are present in present-day networks?

Probably because it didn't support delivery ordering guarantees. Talk
about a blast from the past, though.

        - Dan C.

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[9fans]

[Romano]

References: <CAOw7k5hWStzajH5PmhEEyh1PFQCwiGZR7YsqB1E0+bkE9XxjRA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: RUDP and/or others

I know this is from a thread almost 8 years old on 9fans.

I'm ignorant of why RUDP wasn't used in lieu of TCP for 9P
connections.  Anyone know the whys and wherefores (either technical,
historical, or political)?  I had read earlier that TCP was used in
lieu of IL (another transport protocol developed for Plan 9) due to
performance over long-distance connections.  Did RUDP just not cut it
in some other way for the needs of sending/receiving 9P messages?
From the description in ip(3), it seems to have the nice behavior of
resuming communication when a machine reboots.  Is it due to the
middle boxes/firewalls that are present in present-day networks?


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Re: [9fans]

[Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)]

Thaddeus Woskowiak writes:
> Has anyone written any code to deal with SCPI, Standard Commands for
> Programmable Instruments, on plan 9?

I did a couple of years ago, for the same reason: programmable PSUs and
to suck data down from an ocsilloscope.  It never worked well, and I
have since lost the SD card the code was on (I was using an RPi).

I would be interested in pursuing this, though, as I have a growing
stack of SCPI-aware test gear.

--lyndon

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[9fans]

[Thaddeus Woskowiak]

Has anyone written any code to deal with SCPI, Standard Commands for
Programmable Instruments, on plan 9?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Commands_for_Programmable_Instruments

I have a few instruments and just bought a cheap Kiprim Programmable
DC power supply which works with 9front's nusb/serial. I poked at it a
bit using con and rc and it works rather well. I also bought a Bertan
high vintage supply that features GPIB but I do not yet have a GPIB
adapter.

-- 
taw

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Re: [9fans]

[Lucio De Re]

On 10/21/20, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> Hi people,
>
> I have had to renew my certificate for tls and am getting a strange error
> from imap4d
> when trying to collect email from my iphone.
>
>         tls reports failed: factotum_rsa_open: no key matches proto=rsa
> service=tls role=client
>
> Which does not make sense to me as my factotum has my new ras key in it:
>
Steve,

I found that a key size of 4096 didn't work and your diagnostic
message is what I remember seeing. I'm sure 1024 was OK and I never
got to try 2048 (or identify and fix the 4096 issue).

Don't give too much weight to the above, the problem may well be
elsewhere, but you may want to try 1024 bits first.

I have yet to get ssh to work adequately on my network; there are so
many factors involved it is just easier to use Linux. Which I find
unfortunate. If you make some progress or need me to help in some way,
please let me know.

Lucio.

[9fans] [

[Ashish Raste]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 676 bytes --]

 I'm a CS student at National University of Singapore. I came through the
GSoC project ideas of Plan9 and I'm interested to know/learn about
implementing 9P in Dart.

I mainly wanted to ask you the following question:
1. I read few papers for understanding the basics of Plan9, Inferno and 9P.
I wanted to know whether you could suggest me some pointers/references
specifically related to implement 9P in Dart so that I can start
working/learning along those lines.

I hope to get a reply from Charles Forsyth, the mentor of this project. It
would be really helpful and great if others also drop by to give their
advice/suggestion.

Thanks and Regards,
Ashish

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Re: [9fans]

[andrey mirtchovski]

search the archives -- people have had success with an old,
unsupported sis900 driver available here:

http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/lanlp9/sis900/ethersis.c

On 1/5/06, marina@surferz.net <marina@surferz.net> wrote:
> Hi all:
>
> Just got the Dec 30th version of Plan9 up on my home computer
> and i may be trying it at work on a spare PC. At home i have not
> been able to get networking up with a sis900 nic card. I have a
> compatible card ordered, but can anyone give me some pointers so
> we can get this computer on the net before the new card arrives.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Marina Brown
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>

Re: [9fans]

[marina]

Hi all:

Just got the Dec 30th version of Plan9 up on my home computer
and i may be trying it at work on a spare PC. At home i have not
been able to get networking up with a sis900 nic card. I have a
compatible card ordered, but can anyone give me some pointers so
we can get this computer on the net before the new card arrives.

Thanks in advance

Marina Brown

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

[9fans] ÊÀ½ç×î¾ß¹æÄ£µÄ¹âµçÕ¹ÀÀ»á³ÏÑûÄúµÄ²ÎÓ룡

[€й€€ⲩ€€_€Ź€ӡ]

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Re: [9fans]

[Eric Grosse]

> From stevemw@place.org Mon Jul  5 00:08:24 EDT 2004
>    /adm/secstore/store/bootes/factotum/
>    "implausible filesize -1 for factotum"

Updated secstored.c on sources now logs the more useful message
   "/adm/secstore/store/bootes/factotum should be a plain file, not a directory"

The right fix would be for me to automate the initial configuration
of secstored, but this small code change will have to do for now.

Eric

Re: [9fans]

[andrey mirtchovski]

> andrey mirtchovski wrote:
>
>  > you won't need a secstore for your installation to work.
>
> OK, I guess I don't need it for connecting with drawterm,
> either. But apparently I need it for SSH and pulling
> updates. I may also need it for other stuff. I'm running
> an app that makes a call to auth_getuserpasswd() and it
> fails now that I've tried to setup securestore; it used to
> get past that point before.

you don't need secstore for pulling from sources.  you don't need it
to ssh out from Plan 9, you don't even (necessarily) need it to ssh to
the Plan 9 machine (though you'll get a warning for the changed key
every time you reinitialize with auth/rsagen, i.e.  after a reboot).

in fact, secstore can be left as the last thing you setup, after
having made sure everything else works -- it's just a (very useful!)
convenience.

> The mkdirs were done before.  One small issue, factotum
> wanted /adm/secstore/store/bootes/factotum/ (I think it
> was).
>
>  > on auth server:
>  >
>  >     auth/secstored
>  >     mkdir /adm/secstore
>  >     mkdir /adm/secstore/store
>  >     mkdir /adm/secstore/who
>  >     auth/secuser dpx
>  >

did this succeed?

you've read the secstore(1) man page, i presume?  it basically
explains why the above steps should be taken (and why there should be
a chmod 770 somewhere in there too):

          Secuser is an administrative command that runs on the sec-
          store machine, normally the authserver, to create new
          accounts and to change status on existing accounts.  It
          prompts for account information such as password and expira-
          tion date, writing to /adm/secstore/who/$uid.  The
          /adm/secstore directory should be created mode 770 for the
          userid or groupid of the secstored process.

	[...]

          /adm/secstore/who/$uid secstore account name, expiration
          date, verifier
          /adm/secstore/store/$uid/ users' files

>  > on terminal:
>  >
>  >     touch /tmp/factotum
>  >     auth/secstore -p /tmp/factotum
>  >       ramfs -p; cd /tmp
>  >     auth/secstore -g factotum
>  >     secstore password:
>  >     echo 'key proto=apop dom=x.com user=dpx \
>  >             !password=y~1' >> factotum
>  >     auth/secstore -p factotum
>  >     secstore password:
>  >     cat factotum > /mnt/factotum/ctl
>
> This is where I'm still stuck.

so, what do you see (as the user who started secstored) in
/adm/secstore?  here's a sample from our machines:

	plan9# ls -l /adm/secstore/store/andrey
	--rw-rw---- M 4951 bootes bootes 696 Sep 15  2003 /adm/secstore/store/andrey/factotum
	plan9#

you should see a single file (factotum) if you've put it properly.
from what you gave above it looks like you're looking for a file named
'factotum' already existing in secstore, however when you initialize a
user's secstore there's absolutely nothing in it -- you need to put
the files there first.

>
> Now I get to the ramfs stage! However, secstore -g complains
> about /tmp/factotum not existing. If I skip the
> ramfs step, I see this:
>
>     cpu% auth/secstore -g factotum
>     secstore password:
>     secstore
>     implausible filesize for factotum
>     secstore cmd failed
>
> On the console of the PC, I see "implausible filesize -1
> for factotum," but no information about which file is too
> small.
>

secstore doesn't have any files in it by default, it just encrypts
whatever you decide to store in it.  usually that is a file suitable
for initializing your factotum.

it looks like you have a bad file in it, so all you need to do is
remove it and store it anew.  here's how to do it:

	% auth/factotum # hit enter on the 'secstore password' prompt
	% ramfs -p
	# you may wish to log in to a few places before the next step,
	# just to make sure you have as many passwords as you can
	# from the beginning. ssh to one or two machines, just for fun
	% cat /mnt/factotum/ctl > /tmp/factotum
	% cd /tmp
	# edit /tmp/factotum and change all question marks to the actual
	# passwords you use, for example if /mnt/factotum/ctl has:
	#	key proto=p9sk1 dom=plan9.ca user=somebody !password?
	# in /tmp/factotum it should appear as:
	#	key proto=p9sk1 dom=plan9.ca user=somebody !password=mypassword
	%
	# now simply add this file to the secstore:
	% auth/secstore -p factotum
	# and kill the ramfs session (^D)

and verify that the new password works by starting a new factotum and
attempting to login to one of the machines whose passwords you've
added to the factotum file in secstore.  if doing it for bootes you
may want to add the ssh server key there too (follow the ssh(1)
instructions)

andrey

Re: [9fans]

[Stephen Wynne]

andrey mirtchovski wrote:

 > you won't need a secstore for your installation to work.

OK, I guess I don't need it for connecting with drawterm,
either. But apparently I need it for SSH and pulling
updates. I may also need it for other stuff. I'm running
an app that makes a call to auth_getuserpasswd() and it
fails now that I've tried to setup securestore; it used to
get past that point before.

 > check the /sys/doc/auth.ps paper (also on Bell-Labs'
 > site) secstore/factotum pair

Well, . Here's where I am now:

On my terminal via a drawterm connection (I haven't
recompiled for more GUI support yet), I'm following
http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/lanlp9/tips.html
on setting up secstore.

The mkdirs were done before.  One small issue, factotum
wanted /adm/secstore/store/bootes/factotum/ (I think it
was).

 > on auth server:
 >
 >     auth/secstored
 >     mkdir /adm/secstore
 >     mkdir /adm/secstore/store
 >     mkdir /adm/secstore/who
 >     auth/secuser dpx
 >
 > on terminal:
 >
 >     touch /tmp/factotum
 >     auth/secstore -p /tmp/factotum
 >       ramfs -p; cd /tmp
 >     auth/secstore -g factotum
 >     secstore password:
 >     echo 'key proto=apop dom=x.com user=dpx \
 >             !password=y~1' >> factotum
 >     auth/secstore -p factotum
 >     secstore password:
 >     cat factotum > /mnt/factotum/ctl

This is where I'm still stuck.

 > you'll need to have both auth/secstored and
 > auth/factotum started.

I do, but there must be something else wrong. I found one
thing: my lib/ndb/local file still had localhost and
127.0.0.1 as the sys'name from my initial fumbling around
to get it online.

Now I get to the ramfs stage! However, secstore -g complains
about /tmp/factotum not existing. If I skip the
ramfs step, I see this:

    cpu% auth/secstore -g factotum
    secstore password:
    secstore
    implausible filesize for factotum
    secstore cmd failed

On the console of the PC, I see "implausible filesize -1
for factotum," but no information about which file is too
small.

This is what I have in /mnt/factotum:

    cpu% pwd
    /mnt/factotum
    cpu% cat ctl
    key proto=p9sk1 user=bootes dom=9net !hex? !password?
    cpu% ls -l
    -lrw------- M 48 bootes bootes 0 Jul  4 23:46 confirm
    --rw-r--r-- M 48 bootes bootes 0 Jul  4 23:46 ctl
    -lr-------- M 48 bootes bootes 0 Jul  4 23:46 log
    -lrw------- M 48 bootes bootes 0 Jul  4 23:46 needkey
    --r--r--r-- M 48 bootes bootes 0 Jul  4 23:46 proto
    --rw-rw-rw- M 48 bootes bootes 0 Jul  4 23:46 rpc

 > it's like riding a bycicle -- once you do it you'll
 > always know how it's done :)

I'm still trying to bolt on my training wheels, I think.
But thanks for your patience!

Re: [9fans]

[andrey mirtchovski]

that's a long one! let's try step by step :)

> This may sound funny, but can I setup a CPU server, auth server,
> and terminal all on the same system and have it all configure
> itself dynamically based on a DHCP IP address?

there's no reason why not.  the only trick you'll need to take care of
is to configure the ndb properly in case the IP address of the machine
is constantly changing.  it won't be, would it?

so, by following the instructions on the wiki you should do something
like:

	- compile 9pcauth

	- edit /rc/bin/cpurc to dhcp an ip address, start auth/keyfs
	and start rio for the terminal part.

>
> Although my system worked just fine from the gnot install defaults,
> after converting to a cpuserver,  I got this:
>
>     RIO says: aux/vga: mga2164w: can't set mga type
>     rio: can't open display: initdisplpay: /dev/draw/new: no framebuffer
>     init: rc exit status: rc 12: rio 13: display open

copy the 'vga*' lines from /sys/src/9/pc/pcf to the kernel you're
compiling (/sys/src/9/pc/pcauth)

cpu server kernels by default have very few graphics cards compiled in.

> I am unclear what passwords to assign to secstore and
> bootes as I'm setting up the authserver for the first time.
> I'm also unclear what the difference is between bootes
> and other users I might create after this.
>

bootes (or any other user you dedicate as the cpu owner) will control
the resources on a particular machine.  bootes is just a conventional
(?) name bell-labs have adopted -- people in other places have chosen
other names for the cpu owners, and i myself used to boot under my own
user when i had a setup identical to yours (a single machine for
everything).  if you choose a diffferent name and want users to login
edit /lib/ndb/auth appropriately :)

when users log in to a Plan 9 installation their passwords are
verified by an 'auth/keyfs' on the AUTH server of that particular
installation.  those are the 'plan9' passwords.  on the other hand
when a user logs in they may decide to initialize their factotum with
passwords from the secstore.  secstore is just a convenient storage
for secrets (an encrypted file system if you wish) and has no role in
the interaction between machines in an installation.  you won't need a
secstore for your installation to work.

check the /sys/doc/auth.ps paper (also on Bell-Labs' site) for more
detailed information on the secstore/factotum pair.

> Also, SSH fails to connect now that I've rebooted and
> setup bootes as the terminal "owner" (if that's the right term,
> pardon my pun). I figure something must be haywire
> in my authentication (Factotum?). Following instructions at
> http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/lanlp9/tips.html
> I figured I should combine both authserver and terminal
> instructions. I get:
>
>     cpu% auth/secstore -p /tmp/factotum
>     can't dial tcp!$auth!5356
>     secstore authentication failed

you'll need to have both auth/secstored and auth/factotum started.
secstored should be started from /rc/bin/cpurc, you can put
'auth/factotum' in your profile or just start it by hand.

also make sure your /lib/ndb/local has an 'auth=' entry for the subnet
you're in, here's an example:

	ipnet=hidden ip=192.168.0.0 ipmask=255.255.0.0
		proto=tcp
		cpu=plan9.ucalgary.ca
		fs=plan9.ucalgary.ca
		auth=plan9.ucalgary.ca
		authdom=plan9.ucalgary.ca
		dns=136.159.5.14
		dns=136.159.5.15

>
> Out of curiosity, I tried to do a pull to update my system.
> That didn't work, either. I was running as bootes connected
> through drawterm:
>
> cpu% /usr/glenda/bin/rc/pull
> post...
> srv tcp!sources.cs.bell-labs.com!9fs: mount failed: authentication failed
> bind: /n/sources/plan9: '/n/sources/plan9' does not exist
> servermount: bind 363: bind
> cpu% 9fs sources
> srv tcp!sources.cs.bell-labs.com: mount failed: authentication failed

that would indicate you have no auth/factotum started.


>
> I apologize for asking so many questions at once, but there
> doesn't seem to be a true cookbook recipe posted on just
> how to do this with all the obvious steps included for mortals
> like me.

it's like riding a bycicle -- once you do it you'll always know how
it's done :)

you're welcome to write a howto from your perspective (once everything
is done) and we'll put it on the wiki :)


> By the way, can I reboot a system from drawterm and how would I
> do that?

echo reboot > /dev/reboot

good luck: andrey

Re: [9fans] :)

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Boyd Roberts wrote:

> azerty

all my friends residing in germany say that azerty ruley...

not that this pertains to any p9-relevant conversations :)

[9fans]

[Scott]

I don't like the brackets either, but postmaster@cse.psu.edu decided they
were cool, and so every mailing list gets them, despite local opposition.

[9fans]

[Boyd]

    From: Steve_Kilbane@cegelecproj.co.uk

    Boyd: I imagine that it wouldn't be hard for you to strip
    out the "[9fans]" with procmail or similar. I can also imagine that
    given your correct headers, you probably get a lot of spam, and this
    is just the final straw on email hassle. :-)

i could strip it out, but that's not the point.  why strip out what
should not be there?  i do get a lot of spam, but i won't change my
address -- that would be giving in.

[9fans]

[Steve_Kilbane]

> I also enjoy the X-Face header line you
> use, but I can imagine objections to that too.

Boyd might not get complaints, but I certainly get them
about my X-Face header. Mind you, they're usually verbal,
and from the same person who has a remarkably short memory. :-)

Plus, some people have assumed that the X-Faces header is just
corrupted data, or have confused it with the gumph that some
over-enthusiastic MIME mailers insist on chucking in (M$ Exchange,
I'm talking to *you*).

wrt "[9fans]", it's an interesting issue. Ok, so many can't change
their broken mailers, but I've generally assumed that most of the
readers on this particular list are in a better position to affect
or fix their environment. This is a false assumption, as shown by
jim's comment on unix support and news/mail access earlier this
week. Boyd: I imagine that it wouldn't be hard for you to strip
out the "[9fans]" with procmail or similar. I can also imagine that
given your correct headers, you probably get a lot of spam, and this
is just the final straw on email hassle. :-)

Personally, I don't care either way. I imagine the Reply-To is far
more contentious (and don't care either way on that, either; there
are cases when I want both settings).

[9fans]

[Lucio]

According to Boyd Roberts <boyd@france3.fr> :

> is this [name] nonsense in the Subject: line some kind of disease?

I find it useful, and users of a number of mailing lists off my system
have voiced no objections.  I also enjoy the X-Face header line you
use, but I can imagine objections to that too.

Most useful, the mailing list indication makes it easy to group
messages using the obiquitus "Subject:" line sorting, whereas there is
little in the line of consistent sort algorithms that will work
reliably for any other header line (or message contentsm for that
matter).

I don't think broken mailers come into the picture at all, and in any
events, not everyone is in a position to repair their mailers.
--
Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.alt.za)
Disclaimer: I'm working at getting my opinions to agree with me.

[9fans]

[Boyd]

is this [name] nonsense in the Subject: line some kind of disease?
this is the second mailing list i'm on that has succombed to this
majordrongo madness.  i know it's 9fans from the To: and the Cc: lines.
i have heard that the rational is for those who have broken mailers.
they should fix their mailers, not break the list.  braindamage should
not be propagated.