[9fans] OT: What linux has become

[9fans] OT: What linux has become

[Aharon Robbins]

http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html

Someone should turn this guy on to Plan 9. :-)

Arnold

Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become

[Eris Discordia]

That's mainly interpersonal politics. Poettering probably pounded him
too hard one time.

He isn't giving a technical refutation of systemd and that's actually
very well possible.

Why shouldn't someone turn the ranter to LFS instead? Someone with 20
years of so-called loyalty and evangelism of Debian would surely know
the horrors of Debian's SysV init script maze and should be able to roll
his own free of all distro nastiness.

On 08/13/2014 04:53 AM, Aharon Robbins wrote:
> http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html
>
> Someone should turn this guy on to Plan 9. :-)
>
> Arnold
>

Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become

[cam]

> http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html

just when you think a given operating systems would
not be bastardized any further, some genius fucks it
to the next level.

launchd/smf and a webserver as process 1...

baffling, this is.

Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become

[dante]

This is a valid observation, although as everything that has to do with
architecture, hard to prove.
(Don't use the P-word, that's reserved for Plato and Nietzsche.)

I also have the impression that the trend set by the original Unix
architecture (small, one-job components, generic interfaces)
is nowadays replaced in many areas with integrated solutions
("frameworks") that provide non-separable components
and sometimes redundant interfaces.

For systemd, according to Wikipedia, it provides:
- socket *and* d-bus interfaces
- a cron-like scheduler
- a logging facility, but also access to syslogd
- udev, which was pretty complex itself (frustrating for me: useless
for my setup, had to learn it without having any curiosity/interest)
- etc.
WHY?

The trend can also be seen in other areas. Take Spring for Java:
gathers together components that were implemented
separately long time ago. Or even the iOS aps: there is no meaningful
IPC there.

One reason why I try to take what I can from Plan9 is that I profoundly
mistrust systems that I cannot understand due to their size/bloat.

Arnold, thanks for the food for the mind :-).

Cheers,
Dante


On 13.08.2014 06:53, Aharon Robbins wrote:
> http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html
>
> Someone should turn this guy on to Plan 9. :-)
>
> Arnold

Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become

[tlaronde]

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:02:46AM +0200, dante wrote:
>
>[...]
> I also have the impression that the trend set by the original Unix
> architecture (small, one-job components, generic interfaces)
> is nowadays replaced in many areas with integrated solutions
> ("frameworks") that provide non-separable components
> and sometimes redundant interfaces.
>
>[...]
> One reason why I try to take what I can from Plan9 is that I profoundly
> mistrust systems that I cannot understand due to their size/bloat.
>

And the more "curious" (perhaps not...) is that the "trend" is on
"security", while I fail to see how there can be any security when the
software is not "maintenable" (from french : "tenir en main" i.e. be
able to direct and keep in one's hand).

There is a Borges short story about a library where one supposes
that every text possible is kept, hence if "the" solution about
the "why" is able to be expressed, "the" solution is for sure among
the books. Problem : it is not sure that one reading it will for sure
understand that this is "the" solution; and the time to read
everything in order to find it exceeds largely one's life time.
Consequence :  this "ideal" solution is absolutely useless. Software
nowadays seems like this : the time it takes to install and to
start is time lost for working with (and this may amount to some
time); the time to understand the thing or to debug it, is larger
than an average life time, and is not possible for an average human.
Security by threat (for example in "free" software): "one" can look at
the code. Yes... Try to find a needle in a hay stack... And these beasts
are Medusa: one look at the sources, and you're changed to stone by
fear.

There was also a comical story from a past artist about the
"improvements". The propaganda had made advertising for the "perfect"
washing powder. Problem: when the next one came out, it begun
difficult to explain that it was more than the previous perfection,
unless the very same vendor admitted the swindle... So the advertising
was explaining that by using the "new" improved washing powder, it
was even able to wash as perfectly as the old one, even if one made
knots with the clothes to "hide" the dirt inside (probably because
the "old" washing powder was using its big blue eyes to see the
dirt, while the "new" was using its nose). Conclusion: one had the
same result as before with the "improved" version, except it took
time to make the supplementary knots...and a week to try to undo
them after they spent some hours in the water...

Are there still human beings believing that "progress" is a function
of chronology: the newer, the better?
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
              http://www.renaissance-francaise.fr/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become

[hiro]

you know where to get it, etc...

Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become

[lucio]

> Are there still human beings believing that "progress" is a function
> of chronology: the newer, the better?

I think there are many who believe that everything they find stressful
in the present will be taken care of in the next technological
iteration.

Lucio.