From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob20.topicbox.com (tb-ob20.topicbox.com [173.228.157.66]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD19A25D81 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 19:18:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob20.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33277309B6 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:18:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM2affd026483c5a273ee22a92.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id CC1D4D83CFB; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:18:51 -0500 (EST) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (1024-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=posixcafe.org header.i=@posixcafe.org header.b=CopfyDzq header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20200506 x-bits=1024; dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=posixcafe.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=moody@posixcafe.org smtp.helo=mail.posixcafe.org; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:list-help:list-id:list-post :list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1708712331; bh=9hcrwO6Pa9Xu7u4b/bJj11hg17ys5MiumL07BQkpdqI=; b=W RYFAcJD0HflYoPXH529Lc74NHvJhwXlqZm/sClg8IfNV0N0klepVNYjGYOb9x5kv I/dJJ157vJUS2GLohzpBOKHd6YQdQ1E0DBscL2pHPU468EhIP+eOQs2VvSsT3VdS l95uD0RW4Gv2lBudfw+NBItk5+VkNN8H6KxgI2yLpc= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1708712331; b=q57Aa8HNZKtMDYxLTtLqCRA/ajcL7N7zXqoQUEnnyFRm6t069o 8SldCTPHM3w3Utw0GmOFvMcF42Ru2UP9H+kPNa5riS+cyjO0lBNT8y5y4CVaLZ8W bQlQA3NisRtcma4dby/6d2EYWMFoL28YTeD8PWrO1DqUYJ1lGZktFurCA= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (1024-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=posixcafe.org header.i=@posixcafe.org header.b=CopfyDzq header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20200506 x-bits=1024; dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=posixcafe.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=moody@posixcafe.org smtp.helo=mail.posixcafe.org; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx0.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC did not pass); dkim=pass (1024-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=posixcafe.org header.i=@posixcafe.org header.b=CopfyDzq header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20200506 x-bits=1024; dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=posixcafe.org; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=45.76.19.58 (mail.posixcafe.org); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=moody@posixcafe.org smtp.helo=mail.posixcafe.org; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail.posixcafe.org policy.ptr=mail.posixcafe.org; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=posixcafe.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: mail.posixcafe.org); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=posixcafe.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: mail.posixcafe.org); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=-100 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=message-id :date:mime-version:subject:to:references:from:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; t=1708712331; x=1708798731; bh=P8T2EhpfSMYvTEpTXCylsdx4ncxkcuRo qh8hV82oVR0=; b=WKpC1T+USv4BVRGbExOF5Ru8oC6RVR6ayi3JEqxLnmtgRqqj E8FIqkFNFljS7LVWrgM1/jYlMivW/dWU17SeFlmDZ0KwgMadgLWkbUnOSZ4lU9Q/ w/cb/uJa69HCJ3A3a279Lt1o9WUIQMkJp4F8n3rL0KKeC4mLM009WEBsiRM= Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BEA42F5A11A for <9fans@9fans.net>; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:18:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from moody@posixcafe.org) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id 4627588051B; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:18:39 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1708712319; b=FvpeBEWH+zpOLXIFD3WbYHDx8qtCk9fQqyDs3XYiCSnEpVJecK ZKwbNfTFvYRk5R5C+xaYHC0c+SdTNCJ/TBSS09hXwUUMRptVdQvNi+RXL+mCstw4 QK/S+Sgz/w5kRqrvK1ml99Q4xolHjkpDED3Xi0fyjTsNqtIlH5CvJFIYgTiLBk0z sXJURIOVHgIb1yRRXR0s6PwOG6RMD1J0YmUUtjJt3gJ2JafPglYTt2fIXE4Wjbfs jNdeNkJg5HPT4rX61KzG8NiOxpiilQ4Gcev5YBAQo+VpVkX2EzzVYdTMk6X6VNZF TENnLkfZVWyoPO8EdCKx0BqLy+nXeynxWwEA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=message-id:date:mime-version:subject:to :references:from:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=arcseal; t=1708712319; bh=mcSC0KmR Pckz3wCzQj2DJO0rySSN3dcMNKQEL9o3KRk=; b=XumtcIEVCiK2DEAjNAPEhrCz LGvZrevtOxu7kZaOa+ynjr9t360GbuQZ9yKJiQpnHPArKk8i9JP7ts9Zuef9Lc2n +JtpVayIent4WEf02lIfri4CbsmcKxjKhCFCVMGOdKaWaXUwGp5Yzxau5Ab5gp7q 9eXqRxhutqjif4RD4rckqjyVeLNWZ44pqgLO33oYv5RPgK8xrWGpQDwVfm3Ii1+s knHmSMwWDgnshfrciiH/HKNe9iJxiQPkM1Lpn95jolDAOdpOfx/I+D57vkvHUvgO cfRQypMyR7MhR6P/3nSNSFU8cYi9+BoVLf35DhQCegray+KIyCpvKEuiqaWbLQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx0.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC did not pass); dkim=pass (1024-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=posixcafe.org header.i=@posixcafe.org header.b=CopfyDzq header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20200506 x-bits=1024; dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=posixcafe.org; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=45.76.19.58 (mail.posixcafe.org); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=moody@posixcafe.org smtp.helo=mail.posixcafe.org; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail.posixcafe.org policy.ptr=mail.posixcafe.org; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=posixcafe.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: mail.posixcafe.org); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=posixcafe.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: mail.posixcafe.org); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=-100 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrfeeigdduuddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfu rfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnh htshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttddvjeen ucfhrhhomheplfgrtghosgcuofhoohguhicuoehmohhougihsehpohhsihigtggrfhgvrd horhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevuefgjeegieejgfevjeetffffgeffheekkeel gfevteejfeehiefgfeevtdfgleenucfkphepgeehrdejiedrudelrdehkedpvddtjedrge ehrdekvddrfeeknecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthep geehrdejiedrudelrdehkedphhgvlhhopehmrghilhdrphhoshhigigtrghfvgdrohhrgh dpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeeomhhoohguhiesphhoshhigigtrghfvgdrohhrgheq X-ME-VSScore: -100 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (posixcafe.org: 45.76.19.58 is authorized to use 'moody@posixcafe.org' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'mx' matched)) receiver=tb-mx0.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="moody@posixcafe.org"; helo=mail.posixcafe.org; client-ip=45.76.19.58 Received: from mail.posixcafe.org (mail.posixcafe.org [45.76.19.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:18:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from moody@posixcafe.org) Received: from [192.168.168.200] ( [207.45.82.38]) by mail.posixcafe.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 056e97eb (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for <9fans@9fans.net>; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 12:18:34 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <8acfd2f2-d802-4918-813f-4f903fb5453a@posixcafe.org> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 12:18:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Hello, RPi fixes and bind -b trouble Content-Language: en-US To: Alyssa M via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> References: <17070592670.E7CF6327b.7700@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <17070649110.Bb83425E.69346@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <17070654320.9a2dd3.8938@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <17070851850.5D4Acd.328289@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <17086311280.67fcAA.82492@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <4f3c46d8-d10e-4bf4-a6f8-376ee11bb0c0@posixcafe.org> <17086903380.CDcDB65.976941@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: Jacob Moody In-Reply-To: <17086903380.CDcDB65.976941@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: fa7cc484-d277-11ee-b003-f126088c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYmM3OGQyOWFiMDQ2NTJhMi1NMmFmZmQwMjY0ODNjNWEyNzNlZTIy?= =?UTF-8?B?YTkyPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M2affd026483c5a273ee22a92:1:7C5POSK5yi7kGalqlBPf2vXNkCMEcvMCikYTAkYd1Kk Responses in-line. On 2/23/24 06:12, Alyssa M via 9fans wrote: > (Lucio posted while I've been thinking/composing/trying things...) >=20 > Thanks for putting up with me! No, thank you for your thoughts and helping test. >=20 > I confess I've been thinking about this a bit more, as something about th= is doesn't feel right: >=20 > As I understand it, the kernel is getting an error string from some file = server, and is decorating it with a filename/pathname for the benefit of th= e user, then returning it to userspace through errstr(2). > exportfs(4) is then sending the decorated error string out to whatever mo= unts it. >=20 > But, another machine that mounts that exported file system will then deco= rate it a second time... If that composite file system is exported to a thi= rd computer, then that system will mount it and its kernel will decorate it= a third time... >=20 > This being plan 9, you can do this all on the same machine, so I tried it. > In each=C2=A0 window I typed/snarfed/pasted something like: > term% srv tcp!themachine!9123 step1 > term% mount /srv/step1 /power > term% aux/listen1 -t tcp!*!9124 /bin/service/tcp5564 >=20 > (/power is just a handy unused directory to mount on. ;)) >=20 > /bin/service/tcp5564 above is: > #!/bin/rc > exec /bin/exportfs -r / >=20 > I created 3 windows, each mounting a composite file system exported from = the previous one (by advancing the port numbers and srv names I used above)= . And sure enough, the error message strings get longer and longer! >=20 > Eventually I got: > term% echo >/lib > /fd/0:10: > can't create: lib: is a directory: './power/lib': './power/po= wer/lib': './power/power/power/lib': 'lib' Oh dear yes that does seem to be a bit of an issue. >=20 > I had to generate an 'is a directory' error to see this, rather than a 'f= ile not found' error, as the latter seems to get treated a bit differently,= and doesn't show this concatenative effect. I am curious as to why this was treated differently, can't recall off the t= op of my head. >=20 > This seems a bit daft. > I was thinking that maybe exportfs should be stripping off the filename d= ecoration after all: I'm not sure I can think of a scenario where sending i= t through Rerror is helpful. >=20 > but this still doesn't feel right. >=20 > exportfs is having to remove a decoration on an error string that the ker= nel added for the benefit of the user. I think the kernel should probably n= ot be doing this. The outcome is nice, but maybe it would be better if it w= ere done in libc, perhaps in the implementation of %r. Maybe the system cal= l functions in user space could record the pathname in a global buffer when= an error occurs, and %r could use that. > Exportfs could then forward the error string without the kernel decoratin= g it, and we could leave Linux v9fs alone. > Would that be better? Maybe? It's hard to tell without looking at a patch that does this. It seem= s like the end result would be the same. Exportfs is chucking the resulting errstr across the network. So whether set by libc or the kernel doesn't mak= e much of a difference. I am also not entirely sure that having an extra "opt-in" step is the correct thing to do here. If there were to be a way a= round these problems then perhaps it would be worth pursuing. >=20 >=20 > Although English is my first language, I live among people for whom it mo= stly isn't, so I see these issues every day. There's definitely a tension b= etween the obvious practicality of using English as a "Lingua Franca" and n= ot wanting to lose other languages, which is important to some people. The = whole internationalisation thing is complicated and political, and thus hop= efully something we can ignore here most of the time! I probably shouldn't = have mentioned it.=C2=A0 :D Yes that is a tough question. I have spent a lot of time thinking about lan= guage support on 9front. What I would like first before "localization" of things like error messages is just to be able to input and display the mult= itude of languages that people use. Right now we are not so great about thi= s. Some of the work I've done for 9front has helped improve this, we have more= aware unicode routines with respect to word breaks, line breaks, and graph= eme breaks. Ktrans has been included and expanded to cover some chinese input m= ethods. However the system still has issues dealing with decomposed unicode, both in display and input. There are lots of tricky things to get right the= re w.r.t. mouse selection, display and so on that this current code was just not built for. Part of that problem is the bitmap fonts are just not built = for this world really either. I find these to be much more pressing and int= eresting challenges. Thanks, moody ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tbc78d29ab04652a2-M2affd= 026483c5a273ee22a92 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription