* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:12 ` geoff
@ 2010-01-08 16:52 ` Patrick Kelly
2010-01-08 19:18 ` ron minnich
` (4 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-01-08 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
As far as I know you would need an emulator not a virtualizer.
On Jan 8, 2010, at 2:12 PM, geoff@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> I don't have enough experience with VirtualBox to make a sensible
> comparison.
>
> The thing that none of the VM monitors seem to offer (though I'd love
> to be proven wrong) is debugging tools for the guest operating
> systems. This is odd, as it was one of the major uses of VM/370. So
> if a guest kernel goes off into space, the VM monitor shuts down the
> virtual machine or resets it, but provides no means to find out what
> happened, though it's in a perfect position to easily do so.
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:12 ` geoff
2010-01-08 16:52 ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-01-08 19:18 ` ron minnich
2010-01-08 16:55 ` Patrick Kelly
2010-01-08 19:40 ` François Revol
2010-01-08 19:23 ` erik quanstrom
` (3 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: ron minnich @ 2010-01-08 19:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:12 AM, <geoff@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> I don't have enough experience with VirtualBox to make a sensible
> comparison.
I had a horrible time with virtual box and Plan 9.
Did not work at all well. I would avoid it.
>
> The thing that none of the VM monitors seem to offer (though I'd love
> to be proven wrong) is debugging tools for the guest operating
> systems.
Ah, but i wonder if the commercial guys have been "requested" by
microsoft not to make such debugging easy. Seems like it would be an
ideal way to learn things they don't want you to know...
ron
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:18 ` ron minnich
@ 2010-01-08 16:55 ` Patrick Kelly
2010-01-08 19:40 ` François Revol
1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-01-08 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Jan 8, 2010, at 2:18 PM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:12 AM, <geoff@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
>> I don't have enough experience with VirtualBox to make a sensible
>> comparison.
>
> I had a horrible time with virtual box and Plan 9.
>
> Did not work at all well. I would avoid it.
>
>>
>> The thing that none of the VM monitors seem to offer (though I'd love
>> to be proven wrong) is debugging tools for the guest operating
>> systems.
>
> Ah, but i wonder if the commercial guys have been "requested" by
> microsoft not to make such debugging easy. Seems like it would be an
> ideal way to learn things they don't want you to know...
Visual studios debugger gives a decent amount of information, although
its obfuscated...
> ron
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:18 ` ron minnich
2010-01-08 16:55 ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-01-08 19:40 ` François Revol
1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: François Revol @ 2010-01-08 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> > The thing that none of the VM monitors seem to offer (though I'd
> > love
> > to be proven wrong) is debugging tools for the guest operating
> > systems.
>
> Ah, but i wonder if the commercial guys have been "requested" by
> microsoft not to make such debugging easy. Seems like it would be an
> ideal way to learn things they don't want you to know...
QEMU has an internal gdb stub... while gdb doesn't really handle
multiple address space (and thus neither the guest processes), it could
still be of some use.
At least what I tried with the Haiku bootloader on qemu-system-arm
wasn't too bad, including reading the elf file to get the symbols.
http://www.freelists.org/post/haiku-development/testing-the-ARM-port-was-Re-Haikucommits-r32408-haikutrunksrcsystembootplatformuboot
François.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:12 ` geoff
2010-01-08 16:52 ` Patrick Kelly
2010-01-08 19:18 ` ron minnich
@ 2010-01-08 19:23 ` erik quanstrom
2010-01-08 19:26 ` Corey Thomasson
` (2 more replies)
2010-01-08 19:26 ` Iruata Souza
` (2 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 3 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-01-08 19:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> The thing that none of the VM monitors seem to offer (though I'd love
> to be proven wrong) is debugging tools for the guest operating
> systems. This is odd, as it was one of the major uses of VM/370. So
> if a guest kernel goes off into space, the VM monitor shuts down the
> virtual machine or resets it, but provides no means to find out what
> happened, though it's in a perfect position to easily do so.
it's unfortunate that computer history isn't a bigger
component of a computer science degree. in the
case of vm, it's not even history; still alive and doing
quite well as z/(vm|os) on slightly modified power arch
hardware.
- erik
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:23 ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-01-08 19:26 ` Corey Thomasson
2010-01-08 19:28 ` lucio
2010-01-15 16:51 ` William Cowan
2 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: Corey Thomasson @ 2010-01-08 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> it's unfortunate that computer history isn't a bigger
> component of a computer science degree. in the
> case of vm, it's not even history; still alive and doing
> quite well as z/(vm|os) on slightly modified power arch
> hardware.
>
> - erik
>
>
In my first semester of CS my textbook had a chapter dedicated to
computer history, as well as mentions in other places.
We skipped it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:23 ` erik quanstrom
2010-01-08 19:26 ` Corey Thomasson
@ 2010-01-08 19:28 ` lucio
2010-01-08 19:46 ` erik quanstrom
2010-01-08 20:30 ` lucio
2010-01-15 16:51 ` William Cowan
2 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-01-08 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> it's unfortunate that computer history isn't a bigger
> component of a computer science degree.
History and Philosophy of Science was slow in becoming a legitimate
academic pursuit of great practical value. It will probably not be
quite as long before the analogous subject will materialise for
electronic computing. It is an answered question how much influence
financial interests will have on it.
++L
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:28 ` lucio
@ 2010-01-08 19:46 ` erik quanstrom
2010-01-08 17:02 ` Patrick Kelly
2010-01-10 14:37 ` Robert Raschke
2010-01-08 20:30 ` lucio
1 sibling, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-01-08 19:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: lucio, 9fans
> > it's unfortunate that computer history isn't a bigger
> > component of a computer science degree.
>
> History and Philosophy of Science was slow in becoming a legitimate
> academic pursuit of great practical value. It will probably not be
> quite as long before the analogous subject will materialise for
> electronic computing. It is an answered question how much influence
> financial interests will have on it.
the history and philosophy of $subject would be a broader, and
less applicable topic than what i'm getting at. in dict(1), /history/
1.1 or 2 is what i'm talking about.
no (serious) physicist since newton or since maxwell has ignored their
work. no mathematician since newton or hilbert has ignored their
work. computer science seems exceptional to me in this regard;
we have learned many things that don't work, but seldom seem to
recall the lessons learned.
- erik
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:46 ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-01-08 17:02 ` Patrick Kelly
2010-01-10 14:37 ` Robert Raschke
1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-01-08 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Jan 8, 2010, at 2:46 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
>>> it's unfortunate that computer history isn't a bigger
>>> component of a computer science degree.
>>
>> History and Philosophy of Science was slow in becoming a legitimate
>> academic pursuit of great practical value. It will probably not be
>> quite as long before the analogous subject will materialise for
>> electronic computing. It is an answered question how much influence
>> financial interests will have on it.
>
> the history and philosophy of $subject would be a broader, and
> less applicable topic than what i'm getting at. in dict(1), /history/
> 1.1 or 2 is what i'm talking about.
>
> no (serious) physicist since newton or since maxwell has ignored their
> work. no mathematician since newton or hilbert has ignored their
> work. computer science seems exceptional to me in this regard;
> we have learned many things that don't work, but seldom seem to
> recall the lessons learned.
History should be a part of everything. Alas this isn't the case. I
tend to read up on everything, past and present, before starting a
project, people think it's stupid. I'm more successful, but it's still
stupid...
>
> - erik
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:46 ` erik quanstrom
2010-01-08 17:02 ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-01-10 14:37 ` Robert Raschke
1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: Robert Raschke @ 2010-01-10 14:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs; +Cc: lucio
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 785 bytes --]
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:46 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
> no (serious) physicist since newton or since maxwell has ignored their
> work. no mathematician since newton or hilbert has ignored their
> work. computer science seems exceptional to me in this regard;
> we have learned many things that don't work, but seldom seem to
> recall the lessons learned.
>
>
Hmm, not so sure about that. Especially in maths it took centuries for
people to get to a notation that appears to have settled into something
close to standard.
But I also think that the "acceleration of the world" means that a week in
the lab is now generally accepted to always be better that a day in the
library. No thinking allowed, just get it done.
Cynically yours,
Robby
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:28 ` lucio
2010-01-08 19:46 ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-01-08 20:30 ` lucio
1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-01-08 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: lucio, 9fans
> History and Philosophy of Science was slow in becoming a legitimate
> academic pursuit of great practical value. It will probably not be
> quite as long before the analogous subject will materialise for
> electronic computing. It is an answered question how much influence
> financial interests will have on it.
>
s/answered/unanswered/
It's late...
++L
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:23 ` erik quanstrom
2010-01-08 19:26 ` Corey Thomasson
2010-01-08 19:28 ` lucio
@ 2010-01-15 16:51 ` William Cowan
2010-01-15 17:30 ` erik quanstrom
2010-01-20 0:47 ` Patrick Kelly
2 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: William Cowan @ 2010-01-15 16:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
> it's unfortunate that computer history isn't a bigger
> component of a computer science degree. in the
> case of vm, it's not even history; still alive and doing
> quite well as z/(vm|os) on slightly modified power arch
> hardware.
> - erik
Not very mysterious to me. There's not very much science in computer
science. If we didn't forget it we wouldn't be able to re-invent it, and
there would go most of the interesting work, not to mention a lot of
high salary jobs.
s
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-15 16:51 ` William Cowan
@ 2010-01-15 17:30 ` erik quanstrom
2010-01-20 0:47 ` Patrick Kelly
1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-01-15 17:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Not very mysterious to me. There's not very much science in computer
> science. If we didn't forget it we wouldn't be able to re-invent it, and
> there would go most of the interesting work, not to mention a lot of
> high salary jobs.
s/interesting //
there, fixed that for ya.
- erik
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-15 16:51 ` William Cowan
2010-01-15 17:30 ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-01-20 0:47 ` Patrick Kelly
2010-01-20 1:00 ` erik quanstrom
1 sibling, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-01-20 0:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Jan 15, 2010, at 4:51 PM, William Cowan <wmcowan@uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
>
>> it's unfortunate that computer history isn't a bigger
>> component of a computer science degree. in the
>> case of vm, it's not even history; still alive and doing
>> quite well as z/(vm|os) on slightly modified power arch
>> hardware.
>
>> - erik
>
> Not very mysterious to me. There's not very much science in computer
> science. If we didn't forget it we wouldn't be able to re-invent it,
> and
> there would go most of the interesting work, not to mention a lot of
> high salary jobs.
But how much of this work is actually redundant?
>
> s
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-20 0:47 ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-01-20 1:00 ` erik quanstrom
0 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-01-20 1:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> > Not very mysterious to me. There's not very much science in computer
> > science. If we didn't forget it we wouldn't be able to re-invent it,
> > and
> > there would go most of the interesting work, not to mention a lot of
> > high salary jobs.
> But how much of this work is actually redundant?
80% is three-quarters redundant.
aplogizes to yogi berra.
- erik
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:12 ` geoff
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2010-01-08 19:23 ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-01-08 19:26 ` Iruata Souza
2010-01-08 19:48 ` Tim Newsham
2010-01-08 19:42 ` Bakul Shah
2010-01-08 19:45 ` Tim Newsham
5 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread
From: Iruata Souza @ 2010-01-08 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 5:12 PM, <geoff@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> I don't have enough experience with VirtualBox to make a sensible
> comparison.
>
> The thing that none of the VM monitors seem to offer (though I'd love
> to be proven wrong) is debugging tools for the guest operating
> systems. This is odd, as it was one of the major uses of VM/370. So
> if a guest kernel goes off into space, the VM monitor shuts down the
> virtual machine or resets it, but provides no means to find out what
> happened, though it's in a perfect position to easily do so.
>
>
>
bochs offers you that to some extent.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:26 ` Iruata Souza
@ 2010-01-08 19:48 ` Tim Newsham
0 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: Tim Newsham @ 2010-01-08 19:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> bochs offers you that to some extent.
Bochs not only has a built in debugger, but it has a mechanism
to define new CPU instrumentations (via bochs source code,
recompile required) that you can enable and disable from the
debugger. Very cool feature if you need to investigate some
code or some performance issue. Hoewever bochs is quite slow
and supports some old ia32 system.
Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:12 ` geoff
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2010-01-08 19:26 ` Iruata Souza
@ 2010-01-08 19:42 ` Bakul Shah
2010-01-08 19:45 ` Tim Newsham
5 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2010-01-08 19:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 14:12:39 EST geoff@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> I don't have enough experience with VirtualBox to make a sensible
> comparison.
Plan9 on virtualBox is unusably slow.
> The thing that none of the VM monitors seem to offer (though I'd love
> to be proven wrong) is debugging tools for the guest operating
> systems. This is odd, as it was one of the major uses of VM/370. So
> if a guest kernel goes off into space, the VM monitor shuts down the
> virtual machine or resets it, but provides no means to find out what
> happened, though it's in a perfect position to easily do so.
I have used qemu + host gdb to debug a guest FreeBSD kernel.
FreeBSD does have remote gdb support.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] parallels
2010-01-08 19:12 ` geoff
` (4 preceding siblings ...)
2010-01-08 19:42 ` Bakul Shah
@ 2010-01-08 19:45 ` Tim Newsham
5 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread
From: Tim Newsham @ 2010-01-08 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> The thing that none of the VM monitors seem to offer (though I'd love
> to be proven wrong) is debugging tools for the guest operating
> systems. This is odd, as it was one of the major uses of VM/370. So
> if a guest kernel goes off into space, the VM monitor shuts down the
> virtual machine or resets it, but provides no means to find out what
> happened, though it's in a perfect position to easily do so.
There's a debugger built into qemu. VMWare lets you attach to
it using the gdb protocol to debug the system. Is this what
you had in mind? Or something more integrated and possibly
intrusive to the guest?
Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread