* [9fans] hellaphone take 2
@ 2025-01-20 17:09 ron minnich
2025-01-20 18:31 ` Don Bailey
` (4 more replies)
0 siblings, 5 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: ron minnich @ 2025-01-20 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
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I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on in my
phones that I can never understand.
So I got curious and found this:
https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/
and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
Am I out of my head?
------------------------------------------
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* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 17:09 [9fans] hellaphone take 2 ron minnich
@ 2025-01-20 18:31 ` Don Bailey
2025-01-20 18:34 ` Andrew Back
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Don Bailey @ 2025-01-20 18:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
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I've been wanting to do this for a while and tbh RISC-V makes it more cost
effective / secure.
D
On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 1:07 PM ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on in
> my phones that I can never understand.
>
> So I got curious and found this:
> https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/
>
> and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
>
> Am I out of my head?
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T16bc2f805737b521-M874ff6615c5ebe33f762235e>
>
------------------------------------------
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* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 17:09 [9fans] hellaphone take 2 ron minnich
2025-01-20 18:31 ` Don Bailey
@ 2025-01-20 18:34 ` Andrew Back
[not found] ` <aa9e381b-6fcc-43e4-9778-3566a2dd242b@howhill.com>
2025-01-20 21:03 ` Kurt H Maier via 9fans
2025-01-20 18:35 ` noam
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Back @ 2025-01-20 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On 20/01/2025 17:09, ron minnich wrote:
> I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on in
> my phones that I can never understand.
>
> So I got curious and found this:
> https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/ <https://
> www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/>
>
> and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
>
> Am I out of my head?
The problem with 2G and 3G is that they're either gone or soon to be
gone in a lot of places. With 4G and 5G things get more complex, since
there is no circuit switched voice; you either fall back to 2G/3G for
voice and SMS, or need an IP Multimedia System (IMS) client to support
native voice and (VoLTE/VoNR a.k.a. "HD Voice") and text messaging.
IMS is a curious mix of SIP and IPsec and I don't think there is as yet
a fully working open source IMS client. Those in COTS handsets are
proprietary and for reasons to do with integration with baseband
features IIRC, are supplied by the baseband silicon vendor and then
integrated into Android and iOS etc.
I know of one LTE modem which supports VoLTE directly, Quectel EC25.
Which I believe it achieves by embedding a cut down version of Android,
complete with IMS client. So then you have the usual AT interface over
UART for dialing, plus audio input and output connections on the module.
Andrew
------------------------------------------
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* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 17:09 [9fans] hellaphone take 2 ron minnich
2025-01-20 18:31 ` Don Bailey
2025-01-20 18:34 ` Andrew Back
@ 2025-01-20 18:35 ` noam
2025-01-20 18:40 ` sirjofri
2025-01-20 18:51 ` Wes Kussmaul
4 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: noam @ 2025-01-20 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Quoth ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
> Am I out of my head?
I don't think so. It's not a bad idea.
Not trivial, but shouldn't be terribly unreasonable.
------------------------------------------
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* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 17:09 [9fans] hellaphone take 2 ron minnich
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2025-01-20 18:35 ` noam
@ 2025-01-20 18:40 ` sirjofri
2025-01-20 19:03 ` Michael Grunditz
2025-01-20 19:49 ` Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
2025-01-20 18:51 ` Wes Kussmaul
4 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: sirjofri @ 2025-01-20 18:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Hi,
20.01.2025 19:07:27 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
> I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on in my phones that I can never understand.
>
> So I got curious and found this:
> https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/
>
> and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
>
> Am I out of my head?
Just in case, we* are already working on a 9front port to the pinephone. Currently, there are issues with the display driver, and driver development in general needs a lot of work still.
Take a look: https://github.com/driusan/9front-A64 (I think this is the most current version)
*We=currently mostly _not_ me
sirjofri
------------------------------------------
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* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 17:09 [9fans] hellaphone take 2 ron minnich
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2025-01-20 18:40 ` sirjofri
@ 2025-01-20 18:51 ` Wes Kussmaul
4 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Wes Kussmaul @ 2025-01-20 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On 1/20/25 12:09, ron minnich wrote:
>
> and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
As long as you have that right idea, here's another one:
Use a hardware platform built on RISC-V:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor
>
> Am I out of my head?
No more than you were when you started on Coreboot - thank goodness.
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model
obsolete.”
― Buckminster Fuller
*Wes Kussmaul*
*Reliable Identities, Inc.*
an Authenticity Enterprise
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451 USA
t: +1 781 790 1674
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e: wes@ReliableID.com <mailto:wes@ReliableID.com>
Ranked *#12* in the *Thinkers 360* list of
*Top 50 Global Top Thought Leaders *
*and Influencers on Security 2023*
Learn About Authenticity
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This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise
protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have
received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it
from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents
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* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 18:40 ` sirjofri
@ 2025-01-20 19:03 ` Michael Grunditz
2025-01-20 19:49 ` Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Michael Grunditz @ 2025-01-20 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
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mån 20 jan. 2025 kl. 19:42 skrev sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de>:
> Hi,
>
> 20.01.2025 19:07:27 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
>
> > I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on in
> my phones that I can never understand.
> >
> > So I got curious and found this:
> > https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/
> >
> > and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
> >
> > Am I out of my head?
>
> Just in case, we* are already working on a 9front port to the pinephone.
> Currently, there are issues with the display driver, and driver development
> in general needs a lot of work still.
>
> Take a look: https://github.com/driusan/9front-A64 (I think this is the
> most current version)
>
> *We=currently mostly _not_ me
>
> sirjofri
>
> --
I think the documentation of DE is horrible, at least last time I checked.
I gave up and made uboot to set it up for me.
Michael
>
>
------------------------------------------
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* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 18:40 ` sirjofri
2025-01-20 19:03 ` Michael Grunditz
@ 2025-01-20 19:49 ` Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
2025-01-20 22:27 ` adventures in9
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Dave MacFarlane via 9fans @ 2025-01-20 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Quoth sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de>:
> Hi,
>
> 20.01.2025 19:07:27 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
>
> > I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on in my phones that I can never understand.
> >
> > So I got curious and found this:
> > https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/
> >
> > and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
> >
> > Am I out of my head?
>
> Just in case, we* are already working on a 9front port to the pinephone. Currently, there are issues with the display driver, and driver development in general needs a lot of work still.
>
> Take a look: https://github.com/driusan/9front-A64 (I think this is the most current version)
>
> *We=currently mostly _not_ me
>
> sirjofri
That is my dev fork of adventurein9's A64 kernel to add
Pinephone support to his A64-LTS kernel. I'm having a hard
time finding time to work on it, but that's the most current
version other than local development flailing around with the
DE trying to debug why I can only get it to show a white screen.
Pinephone patches are welcome. I can probably find time to
apply / test any that anyone sends me.
The current status is:
- booting - works (done by adventuresin9), but the original kernel predates
9front having a generic arm64 kernel and should be refactored to use
that
- sdMMC/eMMC - should mostly work. Hasn't been rigorously tested.
- backlight - works, but /dev/brightness should be rewritten to
be a /dev/light consistent with the MNT Reform
- display - currently a giant mess based off of:
https://lupyuen.github.io/articles/dsi#appendix-sequence-of-steps-for-pinephone-display-driver
and needs to be refactored once I (or anyone) gets it to work
- most other drivers - audio, usb, touch panel, gps, wifi, modem, buttons,
accelerometer/gyroscope, etc need to be written.
- Dave
------------------------------------------
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* Fwd: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
[not found] ` <aa9e381b-6fcc-43e4-9778-3566a2dd242b@howhill.com>
@ 2025-01-20 20:04 ` Willow Liquorice
2025-01-20 20:28 ` Andrew Back
1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Willow Liquorice @ 2025-01-20 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
For anyone interested, you can find the 3GPP specs and reports on IMS
through their (somewhat cursed) web portal:
https://portal.3gpp.org/#/55936-specifications
I'd poked around in them myself, as I thought I had a USB GSM modem
knocking around here that I could try hacking on with 9front (I do not).
The little glasses icon in each search result opens a window, and the
"see all versions" link therein provides .zip downloads for the document
itself.
There are 57(!) specifications in all under "IP Multimedia Subsystem",
but I'm unsure about how many of those are relevant to what goes on in a
handset.
Be warned: the ITU publishes their specs in Microsoft Office formats,
and 3GPP 21.202 ("Technical Specifications and Technical Reports
relating to the Common IP Multimedia Subsystem (IMS)") is a link to a
part of their site that is – for me – completely borked.
- Willow
On 20/01/2025 18:34, Andrew Back wrote:
> On 20/01/2025 17:09, ron minnich wrote:
>> I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on
>> in my phones that I can never understand.
>>
>> So I got curious and found this:
>> https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/ <https://
>> www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/>
>>
>> and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
>>
>> Am I out of my head?
>
> The problem with 2G and 3G is that they're either gone or soon to be
> gone in a lot of places. With 4G and 5G things get more complex, since
> there is no circuit switched voice; you either fall back to 2G/3G for
> voice and SMS, or need an IP Multimedia System (IMS) client to support
> native voice and (VoLTE/VoNR a.k.a. "HD Voice") and text messaging.
>
> IMS is a curious mix of SIP and IPsec and I don't think there is as yet
> a fully working open source IMS client. Those in COTS handsets are
> proprietary and for reasons to do with integration with baseband
> features IIRC, are supplied by the baseband silicon vendor and then
> integrated into Android and iOS etc.
>
> I know of one LTE modem which supports VoLTE directly, Quectel EC25.
> Which I believe it achieves by embedding a cut down version of Android,
> complete with IMS client. So then you have the usual AT interface over
> UART for dialing, plus audio input and output connections on the module.
>
> Andrew
------------------------------------------
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* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
[not found] ` <aa9e381b-6fcc-43e4-9778-3566a2dd242b@howhill.com>
2025-01-20 20:04 ` Fwd: " Willow Liquorice
@ 2025-01-20 20:28 ` Andrew Back
1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Back @ 2025-01-20 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On 20/01/2025 20:03, Willow Liquorice wrote:
> For anyone interested, you can find the 3GPP specs and reports on IMS
> through their (somewhat cursed) web portal: https://portal.3gpp.org/
> #/55936-specifications
I remember reading about the Osmocom project going through a lot of pain
downloading specs and extracting ASN.1 etc. from Word documents. Maybe
this will be useful:
https://github.com/osmocom/3grr/blob/master/3gpp-spec/README.md
> I'd poked around in them myself, as I thought I had a USB GSM modem
> knocking around here that I could try hacking on with 9front (I do not).
You'd need an LTE modem. It would be best to start with LTE and not 5G,
as I don't think there is a fully functioning open source VoNR (5G) IMS
core yet. At least with VoLTE there is a working IMS core you can test
against. The quick way to set this up is probably via docker_open5gs:
https://github.com/herlesupreeth/docker_open5gs
I think you can do this without radio hardware and have a software UE
(mobile) and software eNodeB (base station) passing samples via ZeroMQ
instead of actually transmitting via SDRs.
> The little glasses icon in each search result opens a window, and the
> "see all versions" link therein provides .zip downloads for the document
> itself.
>
> There are 57(!) specifications in all under "IP Multimedia Subsystem",
> but I'm unsure about how many of those are relevant to what goes on in a
> handset.
See also:
https://osmocom.org/projects/foss-ims-client/wiki
Seems there has been some success in using Asterisk as an IMS client for
Voice-over-WiFi. This uses the same IMS core, albeit swapping the
cellular network for WLAN and using another component, called ePDG, to
provide secure access from WiFi connected IMS clients.
Andrew
------------------------------------------
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* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 18:34 ` Andrew Back
[not found] ` <aa9e381b-6fcc-43e4-9778-3566a2dd242b@howhill.com>
@ 2025-01-20 21:03 ` Kurt H Maier via 9fans
2025-01-21 3:38 ` ori
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Kurt H Maier via 9fans @ 2025-01-20 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 06:34:11PM +0000, Andrew Back wrote:
> On 20/01/2025 17:09, ron minnich wrote:
> > I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on in
> > my phones that I can never understand.
> >
> > So I got curious and found this:
> > https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/ <https://
> > www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/>
> >
> > and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
> >
> > Am I out of my head?
>
> The problem with 2G and 3G is that they're either gone or soon to be gone in
> a lot of places. With 4G and 5G things get more complex, since there is no
> circuit switched voice; you either fall back to 2G/3G for voice and SMS, or
> need an IP Multimedia System (IMS) client to support native voice and
> (VoLTE/VoNR a.k.a. "HD Voice") and text messaging.
The original hellaphone was not Plan 9, but Inferno running on top of
an Android with the UI removed, which meant they didn't have to
actually make the sausage to get working comms. This is an approach
that has been taken by several 'not android' phones over the years, such
as the Punkt MP-02 and the Light Phone II.
There are two different things people think of when someone says "plan
9 phone." Some folks just want a Plan 9 userspace on a mobile device,
which is the hellaphone approach, and other people want to run the Plan
9 kernel on a mobile device, which is what driusan is talking about...
The problem with the original Hellaphone implementation is that it is
nailed to the Android APIs of the era, and Google likes to replace those
approximately weekly. Following their documents, it took me forever to
get working, but most of the work was on the Android side of things
(specifically rolling back to whatever supported APIs I needed, almost
all of which were one or two generations behind).
khm
------------------------------------------
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* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 19:49 ` Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
@ 2025-01-20 22:27 ` adventures in9
2025-01-20 23:40 ` Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: adventures in9 @ 2025-01-20 22:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
The PinePhones are the best bang for the buck when it comes to an open
source smartphone.
To add to what Dave says is done on the original A64 PinePhone;
There is drivers and a file interface through #P for gate/reset and the clock.
I only have the A64-LTS board, and I was originally working with
sirjofri who had a PinePhone.
We found that the A64-LTS board would run stable at a higher CPU clock
than the PinePhone.
But the CPU clock can be set from user space.
sirjofri did drivers for some of the side keys, which seemed to work
on the corresponding pins on the A64-LTS board. He also did a driver
for the RTC, but I couldn't test that.
Me and sirjorfi stopped because I could get the power management
working on A64-LTS, but it wouldn't work on the PinePhone. Dave fixed
that.
Power management is also accessible through #P, so in theory both cpu
clock and managing power to accessories can be done through the file
interface in user space.
The wifi was some realtek chip that ran over SDIO, so it would be
something like the raspberry pi wifi driver.
And iirc, the quectel eg25 cell radio had a usb interface.
And the kernel needs work on the MMU code. Currently it has no
uncached ram set aside for a framebuffer or ring buffers for
networking. I was playing around with a 42bit memory mask, rather
than the 34bit mask used in other 9front arm kernels. But as Dave
said, it needs to be redone to work with the new 9front standard arm64
code.
On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 11:55 AM Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
<9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>
> Quoth sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de>:
> > Hi,
> >
> > 20.01.2025 19:07:27 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on in my phones that I can never understand.
> > >
> > > So I got curious and found this:
> > > https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/
> > >
> > > and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
> > >
> > > Am I out of my head?
> >
> > Just in case, we* are already working on a 9front port to the pinephone. Currently, there are issues with the display driver, and driver development in general needs a lot of work still.
> >
> > Take a look: https://github.com/driusan/9front-A64 (I think this is the most current version)
> >
> > *We=currently mostly _not_ me
> >
> > sirjofri
>
> That is my dev fork of adventurein9's A64 kernel to add
> Pinephone support to his A64-LTS kernel. I'm having a hard
> time finding time to work on it, but that's the most current
> version other than local development flailing around with the
> DE trying to debug why I can only get it to show a white screen.
>
> Pinephone patches are welcome. I can probably find time to
> apply / test any that anyone sends me.
>
> The current status is:
> - booting - works (done by adventuresin9), but the original kernel predates
> 9front having a generic arm64 kernel and should be refactored to use
> that
> - sdMMC/eMMC - should mostly work. Hasn't been rigorously tested.
> - backlight - works, but /dev/brightness should be rewritten to
> be a /dev/light consistent with the MNT Reform
> - display - currently a giant mess based off of:
> https://lupyuen.github.io/articles/dsi#appendix-sequence-of-steps-for-pinephone-display-driver
> and needs to be refactored once I (or anyone) gets it to work
> - most other drivers - audio, usb, touch panel, gps, wifi, modem, buttons,
> accelerometer/gyroscope, etc need to be written.
>
> - Dave
------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 22:27 ` adventures in9
@ 2025-01-20 23:40 ` Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
2025-01-21 2:58 ` Ron Minnich
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Dave MacFarlane via 9fans @ 2025-01-20 23:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Quoth adventures in9 <adventuresin9@gmail.com>:
> The wifi was some realtek chip that ran over SDIO, so it would be
> something like the raspberry pi wifi driver.
>
Realtek RTL8723CS: https://files.pine64.org/doc/datasheet/pine64/RTL8723BS.pdf
> And iirc, the quectel eg25 cell radio had a usb interface.
>
It has a USB interface that responds to AT commands:
https://pine64.org/documentation/PinePhone/Modem/
But I haven't looked into it much because USB is a pre-req and then
there's not much point until audio and the mic is working.
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 11:55 AM Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
> <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> >
> > Quoth sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de>:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > 20.01.2025 19:07:27 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on in my phones that I can never understand.
> > > >
> > > > So I got curious and found this:
> > > > https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/
> > > >
> > > > and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
> > > >
> > > > Am I out of my head?
> > >
> > > Just in case, we* are already working on a 9front port to the pinephone. Currently, there are issues with the display driver, and driver development in general needs a lot of work still.
> > >
> > > Take a look: https://github.com/driusan/9front-A64 (I think this is the most current version)
> > >
> > > *We=currently mostly _not_ me
> > >
> > > sirjofri
> >
> > That is my dev fork of adventurein9's A64 kernel to add
> > Pinephone support to his A64-LTS kernel. I'm having a hard
> > time finding time to work on it, but that's the most current
> > version other than local development flailing around with the
> > DE trying to debug why I can only get it to show a white screen.
> >
> > Pinephone patches are welcome. I can probably find time to
> > apply / test any that anyone sends me.
> >
> > The current status is:
> > - booting - works (done by adventuresin9), but the original kernel predates
> > 9front having a generic arm64 kernel and should be refactored to use
> > that
> > - sdMMC/eMMC - should mostly work. Hasn't been rigorously tested.
> > - backlight - works, but /dev/brightness should be rewritten to
> > be a /dev/light consistent with the MNT Reform
> > - display - currently a giant mess based off of:
> > https://lupyuen.github.io/articles/dsi#appendix-sequence-of-steps-for-pinephone-display-driver
> > and needs to be refactored once I (or anyone) gets it to work
> > - most other drivers - audio, usb, touch panel, gps, wifi, modem, buttons,
> > accelerometer/gyroscope, etc need to be written.
> >
> > - Dave
------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 23:40 ` Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
@ 2025-01-21 2:58 ` Ron Minnich
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Ron Minnich @ 2025-01-21 2:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
yes, the driver thing is why we ran it as hosted inferno on the
original. I still wish there is a way beyond it.
On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 3:41 PM Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
<9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>
> Quoth adventures in9 <adventuresin9@gmail.com>:
> > The wifi was some realtek chip that ran over SDIO, so it would be
> > something like the raspberry pi wifi driver.
> >
>
> Realtek RTL8723CS: https://files.pine64.org/doc/datasheet/pine64/RTL8723BS.pdf
>
> > And iirc, the quectel eg25 cell radio had a usb interface.
> >
>
> It has a USB interface that responds to AT commands:
> https://pine64.org/documentation/PinePhone/Modem/
>
> But I haven't looked into it much because USB is a pre-req and then
> there's not much point until audio and the mic is working.
>
> > On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 11:55 AM Dave MacFarlane via 9fans
> > <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Quoth sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de>:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > 20.01.2025 19:07:27 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I'm getting more and more bothered by the mountain of things going on in my phones that I can never understand.
> > > > >
> > > > > So I got curious and found this:
> > > > > https://www.instructables.com/Build-Your-Own-Smartphone/
> > > > >
> > > > > and now I can't get a cellphone that runs plan 9 out of my head.
> > > > >
> > > > > Am I out of my head?
> > > >
> > > > Just in case, we* are already working on a 9front port to the pinephone. Currently, there are issues with the display driver, and driver development in general needs a lot of work still.
> > > >
> > > > Take a look: https://github.com/driusan/9front-A64 (I think this is the most current version)
> > > >
> > > > *We=currently mostly _not_ me
> > > >
> > > > sirjofri
> > >
> > > That is my dev fork of adventurein9's A64 kernel to add
> > > Pinephone support to his A64-LTS kernel. I'm having a hard
> > > time finding time to work on it, but that's the most current
> > > version other than local development flailing around with the
> > > DE trying to debug why I can only get it to show a white screen.
> > >
> > > Pinephone patches are welcome. I can probably find time to
> > > apply / test any that anyone sends me.
> > >
> > > The current status is:
> > > - booting - works (done by adventuresin9), but the original kernel predates
> > > 9front having a generic arm64 kernel and should be refactored to use
> > > that
> > > - sdMMC/eMMC - should mostly work. Hasn't been rigorously tested.
> > > - backlight - works, but /dev/brightness should be rewritten to
> > > be a /dev/light consistent with the MNT Reform
> > > - display - currently a giant mess based off of:
> > > https://lupyuen.github.io/articles/dsi#appendix-sequence-of-steps-for-pinephone-display-driver
> > > and needs to be refactored once I (or anyone) gets it to work
> > > - most other drivers - audio, usb, touch panel, gps, wifi, modem, buttons,
> > > accelerometer/gyroscope, etc need to be written.
> > >
> > > - Dave
------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-20 21:03 ` Kurt H Maier via 9fans
@ 2025-01-21 3:38 ` ori
2025-01-21 18:48 ` Kurt H Maier via 9fans
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2025-01-21 3:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Quoth Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
>
> The problem with the original Hellaphone implementation is that it is
> nailed to the Android APIs of the era, and Google likes to replace those
> approximately weekly. Following their documents, it took me forever to
> get working, but most of the work was on the Android side of things
> (specifically rolling back to whatever supported APIs I needed, almost
> all of which were one or two generations behind).
>
The other problem, of course, is that the plan 9 user interface
will not work well on phones. No user interface will work well
on phones, but the vanilla Plan 9 interface will be spectacularly
bad.
So, even if you get the Plan 9 userspace onto the phone, you've
still got a great deal of work to make it usable, and you haven't
successfully gotten rid of the trash under you.
------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-21 3:38 ` ori
@ 2025-01-21 18:48 ` Kurt H Maier via 9fans
2025-01-21 20:17 ` adventures in9
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Kurt H Maier via 9fans @ 2025-01-21 18:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 10:38:42PM -0500, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:
> Quoth Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> >
> > The problem with the original Hellaphone implementation is that it is
> > nailed to the Android APIs of the era, and Google likes to replace those
> > approximately weekly. Following their documents, it took me forever to
> > get working, but most of the work was on the Android side of things
> > (specifically rolling back to whatever supported APIs I needed, almost
> > all of which were one or two generations behind).
> >
>
> The other problem, of course, is that the plan 9 user interface
> will not work well on phones. No user interface will work well
> on phones, but the vanilla Plan 9 interface will be spectacularly
> bad.
>
> So, even if you get the Plan 9 userspace onto the phone, you've
> still got a great deal of work to make it usable, and you haven't
> successfully gotten rid of the trash under you.
The hellaphone came with some reasonably useful tools to work ok on a
touchscreen, including an onscreen keyboard that worked better than the
bitsy one. I vaguely recall the HTC device it targeted had a slide-out
keyboard as well.
khm
------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-21 18:48 ` Kurt H Maier via 9fans
@ 2025-01-21 20:17 ` adventures in9
2025-01-21 20:24 ` Ron Minnich
2025-01-21 23:31 ` sirjofri
0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: adventures in9 @ 2025-01-21 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Sirjojri had some interface ideas he wanted to use the Pinephone as a
platform to test on.
When we were discussing it over on the 9fans discord, it was
interesting to see other people chime in with what they considered
essential for an interface to be "Plan 9". Like using the 3 side
buttons to do mouse chording for cut/paste. Some other interesting
ideas to come up were how exposing the phone's hardware as 9P onto a
local grid could be used. Like making phone calls using the mic and
speakers of a laptop bound together with the cell radio of the phone.
Or reading and writing SMS texts on a pc and sending them through a
file interface on the phone mounted over a local network.
On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 11:28 AM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 10:38:42PM -0500, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:
> > Quoth Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> > >
> > > The problem with the original Hellaphone implementation is that it is
> > > nailed to the Android APIs of the era, and Google likes to replace those
> > > approximately weekly. Following their documents, it took me forever to
> > > get working, but most of the work was on the Android side of things
> > > (specifically rolling back to whatever supported APIs I needed, almost
> > > all of which were one or two generations behind).
> > >
> >
> > The other problem, of course, is that the plan 9 user interface
> > will not work well on phones. No user interface will work well
> > on phones, but the vanilla Plan 9 interface will be spectacularly
> > bad.
> >
> > So, even if you get the Plan 9 userspace onto the phone, you've
> > still got a great deal of work to make it usable, and you haven't
> > successfully gotten rid of the trash under you.
>
> The hellaphone came with some reasonably useful tools to work ok on a
> touchscreen, including an onscreen keyboard that worked better than the
> bitsy one. I vaguely recall the HTC device it targeted had a slide-out
> keyboard as well.
>
> khm
------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-21 20:17 ` adventures in9
@ 2025-01-21 20:24 ` Ron Minnich
2025-01-21 21:57 ` adventures in9
2025-01-21 23:38 ` sirjofri
2025-01-21 23:31 ` sirjofri
1 sibling, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Ron Minnich @ 2025-01-21 20:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
this being plan 9, one could build a phone with no "UI" to start, rcpu
into it, and operate the modem. i.e. develop some aspects of the ui on
your laptop.
I wonder if that would be easier.
On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 12:18 PM adventures in9 <adventuresin9@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sirjojri had some interface ideas he wanted to use the Pinephone as a
> platform to test on.
>
> When we were discussing it over on the 9fans discord, it was
> interesting to see other people chime in with what they considered
> essential for an interface to be "Plan 9". Like using the 3 side
> buttons to do mouse chording for cut/paste. Some other interesting
> ideas to come up were how exposing the phone's hardware as 9P onto a
> local grid could be used. Like making phone calls using the mic and
> speakers of a laptop bound together with the cell radio of the phone.
> Or reading and writing SMS texts on a pc and sending them through a
> file interface on the phone mounted over a local network.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 11:28 AM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 10:38:42PM -0500, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:
> > > Quoth Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> > > >
> > > > The problem with the original Hellaphone implementation is that it is
> > > > nailed to the Android APIs of the era, and Google likes to replace those
> > > > approximately weekly. Following their documents, it took me forever to
> > > > get working, but most of the work was on the Android side of things
> > > > (specifically rolling back to whatever supported APIs I needed, almost
> > > > all of which were one or two generations behind).
> > > >
> > >
> > > The other problem, of course, is that the plan 9 user interface
> > > will not work well on phones. No user interface will work well
> > > on phones, but the vanilla Plan 9 interface will be spectacularly
> > > bad.
> > >
> > > So, even if you get the Plan 9 userspace onto the phone, you've
> > > still got a great deal of work to make it usable, and you haven't
> > > successfully gotten rid of the trash under you.
> >
> > The hellaphone came with some reasonably useful tools to work ok on a
> > touchscreen, including an onscreen keyboard that worked better than the
> > bitsy one. I vaguely recall the HTC device it targeted had a slide-out
> > keyboard as well.
> >
> > khm
------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-21 20:24 ` Ron Minnich
@ 2025-01-21 21:57 ` adventures in9
2025-01-21 23:38 ` sirjofri
1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: adventures in9 @ 2025-01-21 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
The whole rcpu thing could make doing the UI software fairly easy. It
would have to assume a mouse click translated into a finger touch.
Multi touch would be another issue. But that could be done first on
pc hardware using a multi touch input device.
Over all, not much different from the stuff I do messing around with
9front on router boards. Once I get the networking up, I don't really
need the uart console, and do everything else via rcpu and rimport.
On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 12:27 PM Ron Minnich <rminnich@p9f.org> wrote:
>
> this being plan 9, one could build a phone with no "UI" to start, rcpu
> into it, and operate the modem. i.e. develop some aspects of the ui on
> your laptop.
>
> I wonder if that would be easier.
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 12:18 PM adventures in9 <adventuresin9@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Sirjojri had some interface ideas he wanted to use the Pinephone as a
> > platform to test on.
> >
> > When we were discussing it over on the 9fans discord, it was
> > interesting to see other people chime in with what they considered
> > essential for an interface to be "Plan 9". Like using the 3 side
> > buttons to do mouse chording for cut/paste. Some other interesting
> > ideas to come up were how exposing the phone's hardware as 9P onto a
> > local grid could be used. Like making phone calls using the mic and
> > speakers of a laptop bound together with the cell radio of the phone.
> > Or reading and writing SMS texts on a pc and sending them through a
> > file interface on the phone mounted over a local network.
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 11:28 AM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 10:38:42PM -0500, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:
> > > > Quoth Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem with the original Hellaphone implementation is that it is
> > > > > nailed to the Android APIs of the era, and Google likes to replace those
> > > > > approximately weekly. Following their documents, it took me forever to
> > > > > get working, but most of the work was on the Android side of things
> > > > > (specifically rolling back to whatever supported APIs I needed, almost
> > > > > all of which were one or two generations behind).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The other problem, of course, is that the plan 9 user interface
> > > > will not work well on phones. No user interface will work well
> > > > on phones, but the vanilla Plan 9 interface will be spectacularly
> > > > bad.
> > > >
> > > > So, even if you get the Plan 9 userspace onto the phone, you've
> > > > still got a great deal of work to make it usable, and you haven't
> > > > successfully gotten rid of the trash under you.
> > >
> > > The hellaphone came with some reasonably useful tools to work ok on a
> > > touchscreen, including an onscreen keyboard that worked better than the
> > > bitsy one. I vaguely recall the HTC device it targeted had a slide-out
> > > keyboard as well.
> > >
> > > khm
------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-21 20:17 ` adventures in9
2025-01-21 20:24 ` Ron Minnich
@ 2025-01-21 23:31 ` sirjofri
1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: sirjofri @ 2025-01-21 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
21.01.2025 21:18:35 adventures in9 <adventuresin9@gmail.com>:
> Sirjojri had some interface ideas he wanted to use the Pinephone as a
> platform to test on.
Just in case, I did a survey back then, and published the results. Here's the link again: http://sirjofri.de/oat/survey.pdf
> When we were discussing it over on the 9fans discord, it was
> interesting to see other people chime in with what they considered
> essential for an interface to be "Plan 9". Like using the 3 side
> buttons to do mouse chording for cut/paste.
I believe that an intuitive UI for a Plan 9 phone/touch device must be developed (designed) from scratch, learning from existing solutions (iOS, Android, etc), but not copying them blindly.
We should also not just blindly copy the existing Plan 9 mechanisms (plumbing, chording), but find a good way to do that with the limitations we have on a touch device.
I can even imagine that devdraw might even be too slow/limited, but I would still start with that
> Some other interesting
> ideas to come up were how exposing the phone's hardware as 9P onto a
> local grid could be used. Like making phone calls using the mic and
> speakers of a laptop bound together with the cell radio of the phone.
> Or reading and writing SMS texts on a pc and sending them through a
> file interface on the phone mounted over a local network.
A plan 9 phone would certainly do this!
It should be part of the whole system like any other machine on the network. The UI part is only a user interface to that whole system -- ideally it can do as much as any existing plan 9 UI we have today.
sirjofri
------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-21 20:24 ` Ron Minnich
2025-01-21 21:57 ` adventures in9
@ 2025-01-21 23:38 ` sirjofri
2025-01-22 0:46 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: sirjofri @ 2025-01-21 23:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
21.01.2025 21:27:08 Ron Minnich <rminnich@p9f.org>:
> this being plan 9, one could build a phone with no "UI" to start, rcpu
> into it, and operate the modem. i.e. develop some aspects of the ui on
> your laptop.
>
> I wonder if that would be easier.
That's one of the most important reasons why I would try to be as compatible with existing plan 9 interfaces (like devdraw). Ideally, a program that's developed for a plan 9 phone would "just work" within a rio window on a standard terminal. You could just rcpu into your phone, run the "address book" phone app, and that would behave like a standard plan 9 program (just with bigger buttons and more touch optimized, I guess). The latter differences could be worked on by developing a context-aware UI system, but that's also very complicated.
I have a thinkpad with a touchscreen that works quite well with 9front btw. A touch-optimized phone app would ideally "just work" on that laptop.
Regarding modem: easy tethering, out of the box. You could also make your phone an easy VPN bridge to your home network.
sirjofri
------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] hellaphone take 2
2025-01-21 23:38 ` sirjofri
@ 2025-01-22 0:46 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2025-01-22 0:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
sirjofri wrote in
<4c53aeb8-4e5d-4f84-be3a-20d8e80a15ab@sirjofri.de>:
|21.01.2025 21:27:08 Ron Minnich <rminnich@p9f.org>:
|> this being plan 9, one could build a phone with no "UI" to start, rcpu
|> into it, and operate the modem. i.e. develop some aspects of the ui on
|> your laptop.
|>
|> I wonder if that would be easier.
|
|That's one of the most important reasons why I would try to be as compat\
|ible with existing plan 9 interfaces (like devdraw). Ideally, a program \
|that's developed for a plan 9 phone would "just work" within a rio \
|window on a standard terminal. You could just rcpu into your phone, \
|run the "address book" phone app, and that would behave like a standard \
|plan 9 program (just with bigger buttons and more touch optimized, \
|I guess). The latter differences could be worked on by developing a \
|context-aware UI system, but that's also very complicated.
|
|I have a thinkpad with a touchscreen that works quite well with 9front \
|btw. A touch-optimized phone app would ideally "just work" on that laptop.
|
|Regarding modem: easy tethering, out of the box. You could also make \
|your phone an easy VPN bridge to your home network.
btw i wonder if you all have heard of sxmo. I long for that..
(It is Linux, of course, and still quite fat. But at least it is
a real Linux..)
--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
|
|In Fall and Winter, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s pint(er).
|
|The banded bear
|without a care,
|Banged on himself for e'er and e'er
|
|Farewell, dear collar bear
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
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