From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 23:47:22 +0200 To: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu> From: csant Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable Message-ID: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.01 (Linux) Subject: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com Topicbox-Message-UUID: 84fd83ca-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3D15235 "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and= = various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX = applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others" /c From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <3e1162e60607191525m584461abh8b08a59badefee93@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:25:55 -0700 From: "David Leimbach" To: csant , "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Cc: Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8511bb4c-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 7/19/06, csant wrote: > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235 > > "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and > various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX > applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others" > > /c > My sides hurt... stop it... From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <283f5df10607191552r3a0b1d39ne468083cfa063952@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 18:52:41 -0400 From: "LiteStar numnums" To: csant , "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_54526_21651318.1153349561197" References: Cc: Topicbox-Message-UUID: 853266d0-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 ------=_Part_54526_21651318.1153349561197 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hmm, what operating systems _doesn't_ have a kernel a command shell and various C compilers (will Unununum doesn't have a kernel...). Honestly, does that really pass as Operating System Realted News? On 7/19/06, csant wrote: > > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235 > > "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and > various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX > applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others" > > /c > -- Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny, To that goal long ago to me assigned. I'll follow and not falter; if my will Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on. -- Epictetus He who enters his wife's dressing room is a philosopher or a fool. -- Balzac ------=_Part_54526_21651318.1153349561197 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hmm, what operating systems _doesn't_ have a kernel a command shell and
various C compilers (will Unununum doesn't have a kernel...).
Honestly, does that really pass as Operating System Realted News?

On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235

"Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"

/c



--
Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny,
To that goal long ago to me assigned.
I'll follow and not falter; if my will
Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on.
-- Epictetus

He who enters his wife's dressing room is a philosopher or a fool. -- Balzac ------=_Part_54526_21651318.1153349561197-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:06:42 -0700 From: Geoffrey Avila To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <3e1162e60607191525m584461abh8b08a59badefee93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: Topicbox-Message-UUID: 855cbeda-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, David Leimbach wrote: > On 7/19/06, csant wrote: > > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235 > > > > "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and > > various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX > > applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others" > > > > /c > > > My sides hurt... stop it... > What, emacs is available? Why didn't anyone tell me? -GBA From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 08:48:54 +0200 From: Christoph Lohmann <20h@r-36.net> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com Message-Id: <20060720084854.401d1641.20h@r-36.net> In-Reply-To: <3e1162e60607191800i605e7ef5h3d6844b1fd11632e@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e1162e60607191528q19686c97t7f7e81a7251424be@mail.gmail.com> <837249b40586e7e95952f19ebc707df3@yourdomain.dom> <3e1162e60607191800i605e7ef5h3d6844b1fd11632e@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 85a0ea92-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Good morning. Am Wed, 19 Jul 2006 18:00:55 -0700 schrieb "David Leimbach" : > The author could have at least clicked on the emacs(1) man page link > and seen the contents. I suppose that's asking too much in terms of > "research" though. I know he has. Sincerely, Christoph From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44BF981E.4030608@lanl.gov> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 08:50:06 -0600 From: Ronald G Minnich User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8-1.1.fc4 (X11/20060501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Topicbox-Message-UUID: 85d89f82-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 erik quanstrom wrote: > powerful, distributed namespace? you mean like, uh, dns. > > dns can emulate everything that ndb provides except two-level > binding. this mess is kind of our fault though. If we'd get off our collective ass(es) and write stuff for osnews ... otherwise, the wikipedia effect applies. I've just (re)learned the hard way: successful research is about 99% PR, 1% real work. And, there are very, very successful and well-known researchers in this world who manage to make it 100% PR. ron p.s. curmudgeon A T lanl.gov gets to me to. You can guess why. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44BF9863.4000901@lanl.gov> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 08:51:15 -0600 From: Ronald G Minnich User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8-1.1.fc4 (X11/20060501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <283f5df10607191552r3a0b1d39ne468083cfa063952@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <283f5df10607191552r3a0b1d39ne468083cfa063952@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8651d712-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 LiteStar numnums wrote: > Hmm, what operating systems _doesn't_ have a kernel a command shell and > various C compilers (will Unununum doesn't have a kernel...). geez, kids these days :-) you guys have it so easy :-) ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44BF9C70.9070108@village.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:08:32 -0400 From: Wes Kussmaul User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <44BF981E.4030608@lanl.gov> In-Reply-To: <44BF981E.4030608@lanl.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8662c6f8-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Ronald G Minnich wrote: > I've just (re)learned the hard way: successful research is about 99%=20 > PR, 1% real work. And, there are very, very successful and well-known=20 > researchers in this world who manage to make it 100% PR. If what you're promoting is genuinely different, then audience education=20 targeted at/through thought leaders is even more important than PR. Waiting... --=20 Wes Kussmaul CIO The Village Group 738 Main Street Waltham, MA 02451 781-647-7178 My uncle likes to say that the world=92s biggest troubles started when th= e serpent said, =93Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people co= llectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it=92s the = same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.=94 I don=92t get the= serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a = bit obscure.=20 P.K. Iggy _How I Like Fixed The Internet_ (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009 and the prosperity that followed) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44BFCE8C.1000607@lanl.gov> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:42:20 -0600 From: Ronald G Minnich User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8-1.1.fc4 (X11/20060501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <44BF981E.4030608@lanl.gov> <3e1162e60607200947w62ecb699k13d4ed139238d5d8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3e1162e60607200947w62ecb699k13d4ed139238d5d8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 868916fa-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 David Leimbach wrote: > Yeah, V9FS needs some PR too, and advocacy I guess to get things into > other OSes. we could sure use some file systems .... gpsfs ought to just about work fine under p9p, for example. Although ... I'm getting real traction here with plan 9 in the embedded psace. embedded is cool. so I can worry less about whatever linux happens to be doing. ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <5c3ff882b91e45230532a470f355d1b9@quanstro.net> From: erik quanstrom Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 09:13:30 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <283f5df10607230714r66c9acf4p46dee130efb2e9a4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 86dcf068-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 no it /does/ get better. the /. crowd understands that most reviews are clueless. (especially when posted to /..) one of the first comments was the emacs man page. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <283f5df10607230714r66c9acf4p46dee130efb2e9a4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 10:14:53 -0400 From: "LiteStar numnums" To: csant , "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_108416_10244281.1153664093454" References: Cc: Topicbox-Message-UUID: 86d156e0-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 ------=_Part_108416_10244281.1153664093454 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wait, wait it gets better: now slashdot is covering this 'news' item too. Can't wait for the 'Plan9 is dead' comments to (t)roll in http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/23/1228225&from=rss On 7/19/06, csant wrote: > > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235 > > "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and > various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX > applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others" > > /c > -- Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny, To that goal long ago to me assigned. I'll follow and not falter; if my will Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on. -- Epictetus He who enters his wife's dressing room is a philosopher or a fool. -- Balzac ------=_Part_108416_10244281.1153664093454 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Wait, wait it gets better: now slashdot is covering this 'news' item too.
Can't wait for the 'Plan9 is dead' comments to (t)roll in
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/23/1228225&from=rss

On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235

"Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"

/c



--
Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny,
To that goal long ago to me assigned.
I'll follow and not falter; if my will
Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on.
-- Epictetus

He who enters his wife's dressing room is a philosopher or a fool. -- Balzac ------=_Part_108416_10244281.1153664093454-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44C38F87.2050606@proweb.co.uk> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:02:31 +0100 From: matt User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <5c3ff882b91e45230532a470f355d1b9@quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: <5c3ff882b91e45230532a470f355d1b9@quanstro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 86e52558-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 erik quanstrom wrote: there is no such thing as a /. crowd your faith in it is misplaced or rather, some of us troll for glenda > no it /does/ get better. the /. crowd understands that most reviews are clueless. > (especially when posted to /..) one of the first comments was the emacs man page. > > - erik > > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 22:07:54 +0200 To: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: csant Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <283f5df10607230714r66c9acf4p46dee130efb2e9a4@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <283f5df10607230714r66c9acf4p46dee130efb2e9a4@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.01 (Linux) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 870c692e-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=3D06/07/23/1228225&from=3Drss Somebody posts "In other news, SDL now works on Plan 9" and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL= = files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9? /c From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: cse.psu.edu!9fans-bounces+9fans-archive=plan9.bell-labs.com To: plan9.bell-labs.com!9fans-archive Received: by 10.210.43.13 with SMTP id q13cs250831ebq; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.22.16 with SMTP id 16mr5914508ebv.197.1223923598284; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: softfail (google.com: domain of transitioning rsc@morphisms.net does not designate 216.254.78.15 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.254.78.15; Received: by 10.208.7.4 with POP3 id 4mf651011eyg.49; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Gmail-Fetch-Info: Russcox@gmail.com 3 gmail-pop.l.google.com 995 russcox X-Gmail-Received: 72da2f00632eb9f967c90eaf41d8a789128ed25b Received: by 10.67.30.16 with SMTP id h16cs1738ugj; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 13:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.149.6 with SMTP id w6mr3052246wrd; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 13:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from holo.morphisms.net (holo.morphisms.net [216.254.78.15]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id g3si3086562wra.2006.07.23.13.50.11; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 13:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com: best guess record for domain of rsc@morphisms.net designates 216.254.78.15 as permitted sender) DomainKey-Status: bad (test mode) Received: by holo.morphisms.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id CCF151E8C4F; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by holo.morphisms.net (Postfix, from userid 124) id C05CA1E8C48; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:50:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on holo.morphisms.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.0 required=6.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.0 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by holo.morphisms.net with SMTP; for rsc@swtch.com; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:50:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from 9fans-bounces+rsc=swtch.com@cse.psu.edu) Received-SPF: None; receiver=holo.morphisms.net; client-ip=130.203.4.6; envelope-from=<9fans-bounces+rsc=swtch.com@cse.psu.edu>; helo=mail.cse.psu.edu X-Avenger: version=0.7.6; receiver=holo.morphisms.net; client-ip=130.203.4.6; client-port=46514; syn-fingerprint=49640:47:1:48:M1460,N,N,S Solaris 9; data-bytes=0 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F1022C7E7C for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3AB90C7E7F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (psuvax1 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 17840-01-15 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.199]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EBB07C7E7E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id x7so349637nzc for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 13:49:31 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=g62AtZZvcpDoaUsDAWGkUl1nKIuwLHBf+k17puO7jTIMp4cXiz5zHH33JdN8NF8MCwyokGOUk/ir4UkroJ68Ot4cpoFek0vwC37ICZaR/f/a9DTQ5q18BosnTjRUx8m/Kwn4/GLY980C4zSwzQYzRYLTit4yxI63BK5Atgve2lc= Received: by 10.65.116.7 with SMTP id t7mr2602841qbm; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 13:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.249.8 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 13:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:49:31 -0400 From: Andrew Hudson To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: 9fans-bounces+rsc=swtch.com@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-bounces+rsc=swtch.com@cse.psu.edu Cc: zzzswtchgmailfwdyyy@swtch.com Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8714e16c-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 I read with some interest the criticisms of my recent Plan 9 article on osnews. While I appreciate constuctive criticism and factual corrections (yes, it's Gforce not GeForce, yes there is an emacs) I think for the most part your criticisms are misguided. The article was meant as a brief exposure of Plan 9 for people who may have had little to no exposure to "alternative" operating systems and as such its point was not to delve deeply into issues. The intent was more to open a door to concepts that people without a computer science degree might not have been exposed to. With regard to David Leimbach's comments about the value of Osnews being overrated, I have this to say. I pulled all of my materials from the available Plan 9 web sources. Which by the way are mostly dead links now. My impression when researching Plan 9 was that the documentation barely made it out of internal releases. There's certainly nothing polished about any of the Plan 9 repositories. There is a lot of contradictory information on some fairly important topics, like running under virtualization. If you read through them there are a vast number of disclaimors. These sorts of issues really don't give one the impression that Plan 9 is undergoing a resurgence. If anything it looks like other projects have taken the family jewels and left the core project on life support. Many of the Plan 9 web links are dead. The links to LLNL are dead and it's my impression that LLNL is no longer involved in Plan 9 efforts. Mail to some of the more visible Plan 9 proponents at LLNL went un-answered or bounced. Links to VMWare support for Plan 9 are mostly dead and an archived post on 9Fans said V4 would never run on it. I couldn't get Plan 9 to install under the now free Microsoft Virtual PC. Considering that MS VPC is free, completely skirts most driver compatibility issues, and could greatly increase Plan 9 trials you would think someone might publish a FAQ for nubes. But there isn't one. Here's a real issue that I don't think was ever adequately addressed in any Plan 9 literature I ran across in my all-to-brief research. How do you convey the deep concepts of Plan 9 to someone who doesn't have 5+ years of large scale system admin experience, or a Master's degree in Computer Science? How do you convert the unwashed masses of Linux users who boot the LiveCD and don't find KDE, Gnome, an IM client, or Mozilla? The importance of an OS these days isn't about all the magic in the kernel, it's what the OS can do for the user. And by the way you have 15 minutes to provide the new user with an exciting out-of-box experience before you have lost them. With so many OS alternatives out there already, people have a low threshhold for a LiveCD with few user privileges. Please forgive me if this has already been discussed. For all I know it could have been a recurring thread since the Plan 9 inception. But the fact remains that you have an operating system that is dazzling in brilliance to a small number of really bright people, and no one else gets it. So please let me apologize for not completely conveying some of the important issues such as SecStore and ndb. I worked with the material at hand, had a limited time to write the article, and provided references when I could. It was a fun research project. If, however, other people see the reaction that 9Fans have to earnest contributors, don't expect a lot more of them. Kind regards, Andrew Hudson Ahudson.inc@gmail.com From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: by 10.210.43.13 with SMTP id q13cs250871ebq; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.128.5 with SMTP id a5mr5908810ebd.26.1223923598406; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: softfail (google.com: domain of transitioning rsc@morphisms.net does not designate 216.254.78.15 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.254.78.15; Received: by 10.208.7.4 with POP3 id 4mf651011eyg.49; Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Gmail-Fetch-Info: Russcox@gmail.com 3 gmail-pop.l.google.com 995 russcox X-Gmail-Received: 49c2a8182fcfe07f49a0563197f3cb62c4cb1c2d Received: by 10.67.30.16 with SMTP id h16cs2819ugj; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.158.20 with SMTP id g20mr3050577wre; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from holo.morphisms.net (holo.morphisms.net [216.254.78.15]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id g5si4028366wra.2006.07.23.14.26.39; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com: best guess record for domain of rsc@morphisms.net designates 216.254.78.15 as permitted sender) DomainKey-Status: good (test mode) Received: by holo.morphisms.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 76DB31E8C62; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by holo.morphisms.net (Postfix, from userid 124) id 6C5181E8C5E; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:26:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on holo.morphisms.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.8 required=6.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by holo.morphisms.net with SMTP; for rsc@swtch.com; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:26:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from 9fans-bounces+rsc=swtch.com@cse.psu.edu) Received-SPF: None; receiver=holo.morphisms.net; client-ip=130.203.4.6; envelope-from=<9fans-bounces+rsc=swtch.com@cse.psu.edu>; helo=mail.cse.psu.edu X-Avenger: version=0.7.6; receiver=holo.morphisms.net; client-ip=130.203.4.6; client-port=56061; syn-fingerprint=49640:47:1:48:M1460,N,N,S Solaris 9; data-bytes=0 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5D1C7C7F4D for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:02:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 28C50C7AC2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (psuvax1 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 20629-01-22 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.188]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CF23BC7AAB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id k26so1483945nfc for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:01:42 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rqNbI96HhX5dzx6Usr5e7sypW7n/VbL88a1xrC25041qgajrHAoVryfXY2mKdMHJPDIHU1HPHgmRvJZC6cGCWjXfd4VjR/WAUsRk7/GAY9mnNDAvmHXocXnTAYtQnzaRcqFHd2Y96wwn89kPfzlt4dLmViW2yqDtLLKY4nJAB7E= Received: by 10.78.175.14 with SMTP id x14mr1239462hue; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.148.16 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <14ec7b180607231401o7c456ae9p37db10e03732f5e1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 15:01:42 -0600 From: "andrey mirtchovski" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: 9fans-bounces+rsc=swtch.com@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-bounces+rsc=swtch.com@cse.psu.edu Cc: zzzswtchgmailfwdyyy@swtch.com Topicbox-Message-UUID: 871e98ce-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Many of the Plan 9 web links are dead. The links to LLNL are dead and > it's my impression that LLNL is no longer involved in Plan 9 efforts. > Mail to some of the more visible Plan 9 proponents at LLNL went > un-answered or bounced. Surely you mean LANL instead of LLNL, right? Whom did you email? The web site at lanl is gone because the organization that hosted it got reorganized. There's an archive of that web page (which states it's for historical purposes mostly) here: http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/lanlp9/ Perhaps you could've asked here instead of making assumptions who's involved, where, and how. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <53f976bd0607231419v1261b119sd0c353d2b429e270@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:19:25 -0400 From: "Andrew Hudson" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com Topicbox-Message-UUID: 877edad6-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Yes, the LANL. Actually, I sent several emails to you, Andrey. But these bounced. I feel I made an honest, and earnest attempt to gather my facts re: Plan 9, but there is a serious amount of dead linkage one must wade through. - Andrew From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 23:20:59 +0200 To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: csant Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.01 (Linux) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 872daf94-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > The article was meant as a brief exposure of Plan 9 for people who may > have had little to no exposure to "alternative" operating systems and > as such its point was not to delve deeply into issues. The intent was > more to open a door to concepts that people without a computer science > degree might not have been exposed to. This is a very noble intention - but, alas, that is not enough, IMHO. On the contrary... mis-information to those that do not know, is much worse than no info at all. Those that have not been exposed to Plan 9 previously might get a very wrong first impression, and what is worse, wrong expectations. I myself am very new to Plan 9 - but constant reading helps a lot. And actually *trying out* stuff, playing with the system. Have you tried to run emacs? That simple test would have helped not to raise hopes of misinformed users. And it is very dangerous to start talking about stuff you do not completely understand: namespaces, in Plan 9, don't have anything to do with the network database. Yes, namespaces are confusing: it has been recently mentioned by several, on this list. I myself am struggeling with understanding how Plan 9 works - and when you threw ndb in one pot with namespaces, I got even more confused. Your article mis-informs, and consfuses. > I pulled all of my materials from > the available Plan 9 web sources. Which by the way are mostly dead > links now. Some private projects might well be dead - but as far as I can tell, the URLs on the web site and in the wiki work mostly fine. At least, that's where I collected my info from... > Considering that MS > VPC is free, completely skirts most driver compatibility issues, and > could greatly increase Plan 9 trials you would think someone might > publish a FAQ for nubes. But there isn't one. You could start one :) The wiki has a FAQ, and maybe more answers to more questions could be added there, if you miss some. The more people contribute to documentation, and divulgation, the better it is for Plan 9. But documentation and divulgation has to be correct. If you don't understand something, leave it to somebody else. Or investigate, until you *do* know something. > How > do you convey the deep concepts of Plan 9 to someone who doesn't have > 5+ years of large scale system admin experience, or a Master's degree > in Computer Science? IIANM Francisco Ballesteros is planning an introductory course to Plan 9 at his university and asked the list about which points people do find most confusing and hardest to understand. Will this material be available? /c (a n00b's two cents...) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <81b95fcc63494cb844dc77966ef20ef5@yourdomain.dom> To: csant@csant.info, 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: benavento@gmail.com (Federico G. Benavento) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 18:24:10 -0300 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8734b0d2-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Hola, > and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL > files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9? Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list. Federico G. Benavento PS: no jokes in this mail. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 23:29:26 +0200 To: "Federico G. Benavento" , 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: csant Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <81b95fcc63494cb844dc77966ef20ef5@yourdomain.dom> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <81b95fcc63494cb844dc77966ef20ef5@yourdomain.dom> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.01 (Linux) Cc: uriel@cat-v.org Topicbox-Message-UUID: 879a748a-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 >> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9? > Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list. Well, I do also receive e-mails off-list ;) I'd be curious to know how it works. /c From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <14ec7b180607231445j55bd0ee4la23c95b14005e987@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 15:45:16 -0600 From: "andrey mirtchovski" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <53f976bd0607231419v1261b119sd0c353d2b429e270@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <53f976bd0607231419v1261b119sd0c353d2b429e270@mail.gmail.com> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 87639802-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 7/23/06, Andrew Hudson wrote: > Yes, the LANL. Actually, I sent several emails to you, Andrey. But > these bounced. i was not at the lab for a significant period of time. i started back there in october. you can say that the plan 9 efforts there have never slowed down however. they're just not very visible :) you can check some of the slashdot comments that mention our work (search for Los Alamos in today's thread) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <9009257cfaf9a36be4aa4186bea190f3@yourdomain.dom> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: benavento@gmail.com (Federico G. Benavento) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:09:47 -0300 In-Reply-To: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 878b2610-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Hola, > Here's a real issue that I don't think was ever adequately addressed > in any Plan 9 literature I ran across in my all-to-brief research. How > do you convey the deep concepts of Plan 9 to someone who doesn't have > 5+ years of large scale system admin experience, or a Master's degree > in Computer Science? anyone can use Plan 9, you just need to be open minded. -- Federico G. Benavento (a law student who uses Plan 9 every day) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 18:22:22 -0400 From: Dan Cross To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com Message-ID: <20060723222222.GC6226@augusta.math.psu.edu> References: <81b95fcc63494cb844dc77966ef20ef5@yourdomain.dom> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <81b95fcc63494cb844dc77966ef20ef5@yourdomain.dom> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8772b17a-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Sun, Jul 23, 2006 at 06:24:10PM -0300, Federico G. Benavento wrote: > Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list. He is? Shucks; that's a shame. He was amusing in a village-idiot sort of way. - Dan C. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <3e1162e60607231640o5f855965o91b3afd8fcdf3777@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:40:40 -0700 From: "David Leimbach" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 87a3f168-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 7/23/06, Andrew Hudson wrote: > I read with some interest the criticisms of my recent Plan 9 article > on osnews. While I appreciate constuctive criticism and factual > corrections (yes, it's Gforce not GeForce, yes there is an emacs) I > think for the most part your criticisms are misguided. > Yeah, so you read my posts... I just get REALLY tired, as I'm sure many people do, when you go to read something reviewing an OS that you know about, just to see what the reactions are going to be, and find it full of errors. I apologize up front for my attitude towards it. I was wrong, and I was having a really messed up day to begin with. Sometimes it's just better to discard an email than send it. That said, I'm glad you tried Plan 9, and I'm glad you attempted to write something worthwhile about it on OSNews. My behavior aside, it might be better in the future to pop a draft of what you're intending to post to this group or maybe one or two people from it who are experts (I'm not an expert btw) and ask them for their feedback first. A lot of what's wrong with the image of Plan 9 is that people "just don't get it". > With regard to David Leimbach's comments about the value of Osnews > being overrated, I think I mentioned all web journalism... I wasn't singling out OSNews per se. I have this to say. I pulled all of my materials from > the available Plan 9 web sources. Which by the way are mostly dead > links now. My impression when researching Plan 9 was that the > documentation barely made it out of internal releases. There's > certainly nothing polished about any of the Plan 9 repositories. There > is a lot of contradictory information on some fairly important topics, > like running under virtualization. If you read through them there are > a vast number of disclaimors. These sorts of issues really don't give > one the impression that Plan 9 is undergoing a resurgence. If anything > it looks like other projects have taken the family jewels and left the > core project on life support. > Well you could have asked questions instead of assuming things. > Many of the Plan 9 web links are dead. The links to LLNL are dead and > it's my impression that LLNL is no longer involved in Plan 9 efforts. > Mail to some of the more visible Plan 9 proponents at LLNL went > un-answered or bounced. Do you mean LANL? > > Links to VMWare support for Plan 9 are mostly dead and an archived > post on 9Fans said V4 would never run on it. I couldn't get Plan 9 to > install under the now free Microsoft Virtual PC. Considering that MS > VPC is free, completely skirts most driver compatibility issues, and > could greatly increase Plan 9 trials you would think someone might > publish a FAQ for nubes. But there isn't one. > I thought our Wiki had a link to this stuff. > Here's a real issue that I don't think was ever adequately addressed > in any Plan 9 literature I ran across in my all-to-brief research. How > do you convey the deep concepts of Plan 9 to someone who doesn't have > 5+ years of large scale system admin experience, or a Master's degree > in Computer Science? How do you convert the unwashed masses of Linux > users who boot the LiveCD and don't find KDE, Gnome, an IM client, or > Mozilla? The importance of an OS these days isn't about all the magic > in the kernel, it's what the OS can do for the user. And by the way > you have 15 minutes to provide the new user with an exciting > out-of-box experience before you have lost them. With so many OS > alternatives out there already, people have a low threshhold for a > LiveCD with few user privileges. > Now you've hit the nail on the head I think. I don't have a Master's in Computer Science but I think a lot of appreciating plan 9 comes from understanding what's being abstracted at the interfaces it provides. Once you realize you can do things like tunneling seamlessly by using "sshnet" (as easy to use as any ssh command is) combined with the ease of u9fs, you can even find that the distributed namespace will integrate fairly nicely with your existing unix machines, and good times are had by all (hopefully). > Please forgive me if this has already been discussed. For all I know > it could have been a recurring thread since the Plan 9 inception. But > the fact remains that you have an operating system that is dazzling in > brilliance to a small number of really bright people, and no one else > gets it. Again the hammer falls on target. > > So please let me apologize for not completely conveying some of the > important issues such as SecStore and ndb. I worked with the material > at hand, had a limited time to write the article, and provided > references when I could. It was a fun research project. If, however, > other people see the reaction that 9Fans have to earnest contributors, > don't expect a lot more of them. > Well, as I said, I think your heart was in the right place but without doing real research and checking your facts, you're not really helping our situation as much as spreading stuff that will live on in google's caches about Plan 9 that aren't necessarily true. Surely you have to see how that can possibly be damaging. > Kind regards, > Andrew Hudson > Ahudson.inc@gmail.com > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <3e1162e60607231644u352b62a1ve669c672ec160ed4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:44:20 -0700 From: "David Leimbach" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <53f976bd0607231419v1261b119sd0c353d2b429e270@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <53f976bd0607231419v1261b119sd0c353d2b429e270@mail.gmail.com> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 87ab9bb6-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 7/23/06, Andrew Hudson wrote: > Yes, the LANL. Actually, I sent several emails to you, Andrey. But > these bounced. > > I feel I made an honest, and earnest attempt to gather my facts re: > Plan 9, but there is a serious amount of dead linkage one must wade > through. > Did you know about 9fans before my incendiary response to your article? Perhaps showing people 9fans is a certain step towards better advocacy? I can pretty much guarantee someone here would have taken interest in your attempts to do a little evangelism and been able and willing to help you out. Dave > - Andrew > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:41:36 +0200 From: Christoph Lohmann <20h@r-36.net> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com Message-Id: <20060724074136.857521fb.20h@r-36.net> In-Reply-To: <3e1162e60607231640o5f855965o91b3afd8fcdf3777@mail.gmail.com> References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> <3e1162e60607231640o5f855965o91b3afd8fcdf3777@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 87db22be-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Good morning. Am Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:40:40 -0700 schrieb "David Leimbach" : > I just get REALLY tired, as I'm sure many people do, when you go to > read something reviewing an OS that you know about, just to see what > the reactions are going to be, and find it full of errors. > [...] (I'm not an expert btw) [...] > A lot of what's wrong with the image of Plan 9 is that people "just > don't get it". Where is your article? Sincerely, Christoph From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <32d987d50607232303h69ba996fjbb364efcb4fab916@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 03:03:40 -0300 From: "Federico Benavento" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <20060723222222.GC6226@augusta.math.psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <81b95fcc63494cb844dc77966ef20ef5@yourdomain.dom> <20060723222222.GC6226@augusta.math.psu.edu> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 87ec4512-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Hola, > He is? Shucks; that's a shame. He was amusing in a village-idiot sort everyone has a role, what's yours? -- Federico G. Benavento From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <775b8d190607240119h4b0bd62i1bd4acc9d91ba885@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:19:59 +1000 From: "Bruce Ellis" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <20060724074136.857521fb.20h@r-36.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> <3e1162e60607231640o5f855965o91b3afd8fcdf3777@mail.gmail.com> <20060724074136.857521fb.20h@r-36.net> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 87e381e8-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 i read through the slashdot stuff and saw no intelligence, i liked the slam on scroll. it hasn't changed in 20 years what's wrong? i can scroll a page or what i want, up or down. i can click for "take me to absosulte position". stupid arrows and thumb-flickers will never replace it, nice slow drop shadows too. and why is it that it's on the left? that's where you are typing. good to see that lunixes hate it. 4 million years they'll get it. brucee On 7/24/06, Christoph Lohmann <20h@r-36.net> wrote: > Good morning. > > Am Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:40:40 -0700 schrieb "David Leimbach" > : > > > I just get REALLY tired, as I'm sure many people do, when you go to > > read something reviewing an OS that you know about, just to see what > > the reactions are going to be, and find it full of errors. > > > [...] (I'm not an expert btw) [...] > > > A lot of what's wrong with the image of Plan 9 is that people "just > > don't get it". > > Where is your article? > > Sincerely, > > Christoph > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <3e1162e60607240629n30e55cb8yed6e438842bebf5e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 06:29:39 -0700 From: "David Leimbach" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <20060724074136.857521fb.20h@r-36.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> <3e1162e60607231640o5f855965o91b3afd8fcdf3777@mail.gmail.com> <20060724074136.857521fb.20h@r-36.net> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8a92ed20-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 7/23/06, Christoph Lohmann <20h@r-36.net> wrote: > Good morning. > > Am Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:40:40 -0700 schrieb "David Leimbach" > : > > > I just get REALLY tired, as I'm sure many people do, when you go to > > read something reviewing an OS that you know about, just to see what > > the reactions are going to be, and find it full of errors. > > > [...] (I'm not an expert btw) [...] > > > A lot of what's wrong with the image of Plan 9 is that people "just > > don't get it". > > Where is your article? > I keep my learning experiences over @ http://mordor.tip9ug.jp/who/leimy I found all the introductory setup material I needed on our wiki, and from being involved and asking questions either on IRC (some of which were met with both appropriate and seemingly inappropriate RTFMs at the time) or on 9fans. I doubt I could do a better job than some of the papers that already exist by Ron Minnich or Charles Forsyth on why Plan 9 is relevant. However as I learned things that weren't obvious I've always been willing to share that information. Dave > Sincerely, > > Christoph > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <7d3530220607240804g4519f44ek67978a7f9176507e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:04:40 -0700 From: "John Floren" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <775b8d190607240119h4b0bd62i1bd4acc9d91ba885@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> <3e1162e60607231640o5f855965o91b3afd8fcdf3777@mail.gmail.com> <20060724074136.857521fb.20h@r-36.net> <775b8d190607240119h4b0bd62i1bd4acc9d91ba885@mail.gmail.com> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 88d34872-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 7/24/06, Bruce Ellis wrote: > i read through the slashdot stuff and saw no intelligence, > i liked the slam on scroll. it hasn't changed in 20 years > what's wrong? i can scroll a page or what i want, up or down. > i can click for "take me to absosulte position". > > stupid arrows and thumb-flickers will never replace it, nice > slow drop shadows too. > > and why is it that it's on the left? that's where you are typing. > > good to see that lunixes hate it. 4 million years they'll get it. > > brucee Are you talking about the scroll bars on Plan 9? They seem to me to be just like scroll bars on a plain old xterm, so I don't see what the Slashdot morons would be slamming--oh wait, it's Slashdot. John, Slashdot member (non-paying) -- TANSTAAFL! (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <14ec7b180607240823m64afc086pa0004eed8eb13369@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:23:54 -0600 From: "andrey mirtchovski" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <7d3530220607240804g4519f44ek67978a7f9176507e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> <3e1162e60607231640o5f855965o91b3afd8fcdf3777@mail.gmail.com> <20060724074136.857521fb.20h@r-36.net> <775b8d190607240119h4b0bd62i1bd4acc9d91ba885@mail.gmail.com> <7d3530220607240804g4519f44ek67978a7f9176507e@mail.gmail.com> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8805c866-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Are you talking about the scroll bars on Plan 9? They seem to me to be > just like scroll bars on a plain old xterm, so I don't see what the > Slashdot morons would be slamming--oh wait, it's Slashdot. slashdot is also the only place where people would be commenting how restrictive the Plan 9 license is (sometimes even referring to the 1995 one, not even the 2000 one) while slamming the OS for not being up-to-date with whatever the current fashions are. yesterday's discussion was similar to a bunch of lemmings running around screaming "persistent objects! persistent objects!"... it must be that the 20 year cycle has gotten us back to the days of OO again. the most insight comes from the anonymous posters, damn cowards :) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:09:09 -0400 To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: "Plan 9" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <81b95fcc63494cb844dc77966ef20ef5@yourdomain.dom> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <81b95fcc63494cb844dc77966ef20ef5@yourdomain.dom> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.00 (Win32) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8ad86a62-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 If Uriel is banned then then he's banned in the same way Boyd was, he decided it by himself in a fit of pique. In Boyd's case he announced it on 9fans then was silent for a few months before starting up again. Perhaps Uriel or one of his acolytes could tell us when he was banned? And before you invoke the Holy Hand Grenade of Boyd, there are many people who read this list who knew Boyd a lot longer than Uriel (myself included) and, I bet, a lot better. On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:24:10 -0400, Federico G. Benavento wrote: > Hola, > >> and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL >> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9? > > Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list. > > Federico G. Benavento > > PS: no jokes in this mail. > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <762af5b83f50ef827f58b2e2c5c898bc@yourdomain.dom> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: benavento@gmail.com (Federico G. Benavento) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:25:50 -0300 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-nreszmvaosgztacztxtnftdhft" Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8b59b39c-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-nreszmvaosgztacztxtnftdhft Content-Disposition: ainline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu Date: Fri Jul 14 12:59:46 CES 2006 To: uriel@cat-v.org Subject: Re: [9fans] wiki css On Fri, Jul 14, 2006 at 01:22:56AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote: > Sieg Heil! You can stop saying that now, and I really mean it. From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu Date: Tue Jul 18 10:01:21 CES 2006 To: uriel@cat-v.org CC: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)) On Mon, Jul 17, 2006 at 09:11:28AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote: > Sieg Heil! I asked you to stop. Now you will now be unsubscribed from 9fans. --upas-nreszmvaosgztacztxtnftdhft Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: ainline X-Gmail-Received: 6532add9740447ccdb98a9f2b2af348bef9b5a8e Delivered-To: benavento@gmail.com Received: by 10.67.32.19 with SMTP id k19cs695794ugj; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.159.2 with SMTP id l2mr4125905qbo; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <9fans-bounces+benavento=gmail.com@cse.psu.edu> Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id q17si2815592qbq.2006.07.24.15.11.43; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com: best guess record for domain of 9fans-bounces+benavento=gmail.com@cse.psu.edu designates 130.203.4.6 as permitted sender) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C1EE9C6844 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:09:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 62562C6706 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (psuvax1 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 08896-01-15 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6691463FEC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fuji.hhdh.btopenzone.com ([217.41.228.3]) by plan9; Mon Jul 24 18:09:21 EDT 2006 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:09:09 -0400 To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: "Plan 9" Organization: CFKA1127 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <81b95fcc63494cb844dc77966ef20ef5@yourdomain.dom> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <81b95fcc63494cb844dc77966ef20ef5@yourdomain.dom> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.00 (Win32) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: 9fans-bounces+benavento=gmail.com@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-bounces+benavento=gmail.com@cse.psu.edu If Uriel is banned then then he's banned in the same way Boyd was, he decided it by himself in a fit of pique. In Boyd's case he announced it on 9fans then was silent for a few months before starting up again. Perhaps Uriel or one of his acolytes could tell us when he was banned? And before you invoke the Holy Hand Grenade of Boyd, there are many people who read this list who knew Boyd a lot longer than Uriel (myself included) and, I bet, a lot better. On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:24:10 -0400, Federico G. Benavento wrote: > Hola, > >> and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL >> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9? > > Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list. > > Federico G. Benavento > > PS: no jokes in this mail. > --upas-nreszmvaosgztacztxtnftdhft-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:39:07 -0400 From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <762af5b83f50ef827f58b2e2c5c898bc@yourdomain.dom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8b646bc0-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Thank you. This is news to those of us who do not have access to Uriel's mailbox. Other people have mentioned to me in private mail how offensive they found Uriel's postings. It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not, but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity training. But what the fuck do I know. On Mon Jul 24 18:27:44 EDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote: > From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu > Date: Fri Jul 14 12:59:46 CES 2006 > To: uriel@cat-v.org > Subject: Re: [9fans] wiki css > > On Fri, Jul 14, 2006 at 01:22:56AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote: > > Sieg Heil! > > You can stop saying that now, and I really mean it. > > From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu > Date: Tue Jul 18 10:01:21 CES 2006 > To: uriel@cat-v.org > CC: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu > Subject: Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme)) > > On Mon, Jul 17, 2006 at 09:11:28AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote: > > Sieg Heil! > > I asked you to stop. > Now you will now be unsubscribed from 9fans. > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44C54D60.9040803@lanl.gov> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 16:44:48 -0600 From: Ronald G Minnich User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8-1.1.fc4 (X11/20060501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> In-Reply-To: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8b83e2b6-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not, > but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity > training. I think until he grows up, he ought to be banned. The correct decision was made. ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44C62E42.1010904@anvil.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:44:18 +0100 From: Dave Lukes User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> <44C54D60.9040803@lanl.gov> In-Reply-To: <44C54D60.9040803@lanl.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8c678bec-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Ronald G Minnich wrote: > jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > > > It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not, Me neither: I don't run the list. > > but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity training. Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but* ... so do many of us. > I think until he grows up, he ought to be banned. The correct > decision was made. There are no "correct" decisions in cases like this, just opinions. Speaking as someone who's grandparents died in Auschwitz, I don't think he should have been banned simply for saying "Sieg Heil", but I don't know the whole story. Empirically, banning things (whether they be people or opinions) doesn't work: one needs to embrace and extend. Unfortunately, one doesn't always like what one has to embrace. D. * Little Britain reference. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:07:09 +0200 From: elbing To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <44C62E42.1010904@anvil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_69230_19637808.1153843629333" References: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> <44C54D60.9040803@lanl.gov> <44C62E42.1010904@anvil.com> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8c787146-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 ------=_Part_69230_19637808.1153843629333 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't read the "9fans list terms of use", but if there is any law to forbid just a thought, please warn me about it. elbing 2006/7/25, Dave Lukes : > > Ronald G Minnich wrote: > > jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > > > > > It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not, > > Me neither: I don't run the list. > > > > but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity training. > > Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but* ... > so do many of us. > > > I think until he grows up, he ought to be banned. The correct > > decision was made. > > There are no "correct" decisions in cases like this, just opinions. > > Speaking as someone who's grandparents died in Auschwitz, > I don't think he should have been banned simply for saying "Sieg Heil", > but I don't know the whole story. > > Empirically, banning things (whether they be people or opinions) doesn't > work: > one needs to embrace and extend. > > Unfortunately, one doesn't always like what one has to embrace. > > D. > > * Little Britain reference. > ------=_Part_69230_19637808.1153843629333 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't read the "9fans list terms of use", but if there is any law to forbid just a thought, please warn me about it.

elbing

2006/7/25, Dave Lukes < davel@anvil.com>:
Ronald G Minnich wrote:
>   jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
>
> > It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not,

Me neither: I don't run the list.

> > but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity training.

Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but* ...
so do many of us.

>  I think until he grows up, he ought to be banned. The correct
>  decision was made.

There are no "correct" decisions in cases like this, just opinions.

Speaking as someone who's grandparents died in Auschwitz,
I don't think he should have been banned simply for saying "Sieg Heil",
but I don't know the whole story.

Empirically, banning things (whether they be people or opinions) doesn't
work:
one needs to embrace and extend.

Unfortunately, one doesn't always like what one has to embrace.

D.

* Little Britain reference.

------=_Part_69230_19637808.1153843629333-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: ems To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: <44C62E42.1010904@anvil.com> References: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> <44C54D60.9040803@lanl.gov> <44C62E42.1010904@anvil.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 02:41:01 +1000 Message-Id: <1153845661.18642.8.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8c7d3c6c-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Speaking as someone who's grandparents died in Auschwitz, > I don't think he should have been banned simply for saying "Sieg Heil", > but I don't know the whole story. My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop mutliple times. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:56:08 +0200 From: "Ignacio Torres Masdeu" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <1153845661.18642.8.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> <44C54D60.9040803@lanl.gov> <44C62E42.1010904@anvil.com> <1153845661.18642.8.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8c827768-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 T24gNy8yNS8wNiwgZW1zIDxvYXRAaWluZXQubmV0LmF1PiB3cm90ZToKPiBNeSB1bmRlcnN0YW5k aW5nIGhlIGdvdCBiYW5uZWQgZm9yIG5vdCBzdG9wcGluZyB3aGVuIGFza2VkIHRvIHN0b3AKPiBt dXRsaXBsZSB0aW1lcy4KCldlbGwsIGhlIHByb2JhYmx5IG5lZWRzIHRvIGxlYXJuIHdoZW4gYSBq b2tlIGlzICJleGhhdXN0ZWQiIG9yIGl0IGlzCm5vdCBmdW5ueSBhbnltb3JlLiBCdXQgaGUgZGlk IGFwb2xvZ2l6ZSBpbiB0aGUgbWVzc2FnZSB0aGF0IGdvdCBoaW0KYmFubmVkOgpodHRwOi8vbGlz dHMuY3NlLnBzdS5lZHUvYXJjaGl2ZXMvOWZhbnMvMjAwNi1KdWx5LzA0ODI2NC5odG1sCgo+IFAu Uy46IEFwb2xvZ2llcyBpZiBzb21lb25lIGlzIG9mZmVuZGVkIGJ5IG15IGVtYWlscywgb2ZmZW5k aW5nIHdhcwo+IG5ldmVyIG15IGludGVudGlvbi4gIEknbSBzb3JyeSBpZiBhIGxpbWl0ZWQgc2Vu c2Ugb2YgaHVtb3IgaXMgYQo+IHByb2JsZW0gZm9yIHNvbWUgcGVvcGxlLgoKVGhlIHRyYW5zbGF0 aW9uIG9mIFNpZWcgSGVpbCBpcyAiaGVpbCB2aWN0b3J5IiwgYW5kIHVyaWVsIGRpZCBzaWduIGFz CiJGw7xocmVyIGRlciBEaXNzaWRlbnQgUGxhbiA5IElSQyBLaWRzIi4gSXQgbG9va3MgbGlrZSBh IGNvbnZvbHV0ZWQKam9rZSBhYm91dCB0aGUgdmljdG9yeSBvZiB0aGUgc3VwZXJpb3JpdHkgb2Yg cGxhbjkgb3ZlciBsZXNzZXIKb3BlcmF0aW4gc3lzdGVtcy4gSSBkb24ndCBsaWtlIHRoYXQgaHVt b3IgZWl0aGVyLCBidXQgYSBiYW4gc2VlbXMgbGlrZQphbiBvdmVyLXJlYWN0aW9uLgoKT24gdGhl IG90aGVyIGhhbmQsIG9uZSBvZiB0aGUgdGhpbmdzIHRoYXQgbW92ZWQgbWUgdG8gdHJ5IHBsYW45 IHdoZXJlCnVyaWVsJ3MgcHJlc2VudGF0aW9ucy4gTWF5YmUgaGUgZGlkbid0IGludmVudCBhbnl0 aGluZywgYnV0IHRoZXkgd2VyZQphIGdvb2QgcmVzdW1lIG9mIHBsYW45IGZlYXR1cmVzLiBIZSBj b3VsZCBiZSBhIGdvb2Qgd2ViIGd1eS4KCi0tIApSZWdhcmRzLApJZ25hY2lvIFRvcnJlcyA8aHR0 cDovL2lnbmFjaW8udG9ycmVzbWFzZGV1Lm5hbWUvPgo= From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: ems To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: References: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> <44C54D60.9040803@lanl.gov> <44C62E42.1010904@anvil.com> <1153845661.18642.8.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 03:27:54 +1000 Message-Id: <1153848474.18642.13.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8c8947b4-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 18:56 +0200, Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: > On 7/25/06, ems wrote: > > My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop > > mutliple times. > > Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is > not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him > banned: > http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is normally a worse crime than what was done. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <1153848474.18642.13.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> References: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> <44C54D60.9040803@lanl.gov> <44C62E42.1010904@anvil.com> <1153845661.18642.8.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> <1153848474.18642.13.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7AAC45E8-9468-4CD5-A105-D169AF72BCA4@cibernet.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Baldwin Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:33:44 -0400 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8c8dffde-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 I feel like responding... oh never mind. I shall do what I'm told, sir! You are so right: authority needs to put its foot down and not stand for any funny business. Or else. On 2006 Jul 25, at 13:27, ems wrote: > On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 18:56 +0200, Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: >> On 7/25/06, ems wrote: >>> My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop >>> mutliple times. >> >> Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is >> not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him >> banned: >> http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html > > Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and > apologizing > is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when > it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is > normally a worse crime than what was done. > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:52:58 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Iruat=E3_Souza_(muzgo)?=" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <1153848474.18642.13.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> <44C54D60.9040803@lanl.gov> <44C62E42.1010904@anvil.com> <1153845661.18642.8.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> <1153848474.18642.13.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8c9ed926-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 2006/7/25, ems : > On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 18:56 +0200, Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote: > > On 7/25/06, ems wrote: > > > My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop > > > mutliple times. > > > > Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is > > not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him > > banned: > > http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html > > Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing > is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when > it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is > normally a worse crime than what was done. > you know where to stick your authority, don't you? From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: ems To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: <06d73c05da5799c7f0057e2bdb88a99f@mail.gmx.net> References: <06d73c05da5799c7f0057e2bdb88a99f@mail.gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 04:55:02 +1000 Message-Id: <1153853702.18642.32.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8cd85610-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > 'Heil' is used by austrians, in a friendly manner, btw :P It has nothing to do with heil. > Uriel has always been special, so is his way of making jokes. Jokes or not he was told to stop. > He is always up for a presentation for some Free/Open Source Congress, works on documentation and tries to convince people of his ideas - You know what that is called? Contributing. There is much more we should thank him for. > We all have one thing in common: We like Plan9. We can try improving situations or ban people, but I don't think you can do both. Uriel does many good things and I hope he will in the future be allowed to rejoin 9fans by behaving. Anyway there is definitely no point in me discussing it as I have no influence on uriel or 9fans. Send off those emails to uriel. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <7699ed47670a7106aa68a868364951ab@9netics.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:15:30 -0700 From: Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8cdd0d04-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 >> Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing >> is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when >> it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is >> normally a worse crime than what was done. it is sad that he is callous or ignorant enough to liken himself to the history's most infamous war criminal just to make a joke; but banning him for his crass joke is a mistake. i thought it was an over-the-top sarcastic comment. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <8ccc8ba40607251247w2067c350nd8dfc86053ffa796@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 21:47:26 +0200 From: "Francisco J Ballesteros" To: csant , "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> Cc: Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8ce53b00-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Pgo+IElJQU5NIEZyYW5jaXNjbyBCYWxsZXN0ZXJvcyBpcyBwbGFubmluZyBhbiBpbnRyb2R1Y3Rv cnkgY291cnNlIHRvIFBsYW4gOQo+IGF0IGhpcyB1bml2ZXJzaXR5IGFuZCBhc2tlZCB0aGUgbGlz dCBhYm91dCB3aGljaCBwb2ludHMgcGVvcGxlIGRvIGZpbmQKPiBtb3N0IGNvbmZ1c2luZyBhbmQg aGFyZGVzdCB0byB1bmRlcnN0YW5kLiBXaWxsIHRoaXMgbWF0ZXJpYWwgYmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlPwoK U3VyZSwganVzdCBnaXZlIG1lIHNvbWUgdGltZSB0byBmaW5pc2ggYXQgbGVhc3QgYSByZWFkYWJs ZSBkcmFmdC4gVGhlCm9uZSBJIGhhdmUgbm93IGlzIDE2MHBncyBvciBzby4gQnV0IEkgdGhpbmsg ScK0bGwgbmVlZCBsaWtlIG9uZSBtb250aCBtb3JlCnRvIGdldCBpdCBzdGFibGUgZW5vdWdoIGZv ciBvdGhlcnMgdG8gcmVhZC4gQW5kIGl0wrRzIGZvciBzdXJlIHRoYXQgScK0bGwgaGF2ZQp0byBn byBvdmVyIGl0IG1hbnkgdGltZXMgbW9yZS4gQnV0LCBmb3Igd2hhdCBpdCBtaWdodCBiZSB3b3J0 aCwgY291bnQgd2l0aAphIHVybCBmb3IgdGhlIHdob2xlIHBkZiBhcyBzb29uIGFzIEkgZ2V0IG9u ZS4KCk5lbW8K From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <06d73c05da5799c7f0057e2bdb88a99f@mail.gmx.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: "Sascha Retzki" Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 23:42:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1153848474.18642.13.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8cae3fc4-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing > is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when > it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is > normally a worse crime than what was done. 'Children.. behave!' In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. It's called civilisation, I think this world should try that out. 'Heil' is used by austrians, in a friendly manner, btw :P Uriel has always been special, so is his way of making jokes. He is always up for a presentation for some Free/Open Source Congress, works on documentation and tries to convince people of his ideas - You know what that is called? Contributing. We all have one thing in common: We like Plan9. We can try improving situations or ban people, but I don't think you can do both. Just my 2cents From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <7d3530220607251501o707fde4fg5534531c94a9d6cd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:01:17 -0700 From: "John Floren" To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <8ccc8ba40607251247w2067c350nd8dfc86053ffa796@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> <8ccc8ba40607251247w2067c350nd8dfc86053ffa796@mail.gmail.com> Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8d0809dc-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On 7/25/06, Francisco J Ballesteros wrote: > > > > IIANM Francisco Ballesteros is planning an introductory course to Plan = 9 > > at his university and asked the list about which points people do find > > most confusing and hardest to understand. Will this material be availab= le? > > Sure, just give me some time to finish at least a readable draft. The > one I have now is 160pgs or so. But I think I=B4ll need like one month mo= re > to get it stable enough for others to read. And it=B4s for sure that I=B4= ll have > to go over it many times more. But, for what it might be worth, count wit= h > a url for the whole pdf as soon as I get one. > > Nemo > Just saying that I'd be glad to read over/look through the preliminary document and offer my suggestions. I am still quite new to Plan 9, so I may be of some help in gaining a newbie's perspective. Oh, and if you need a place to put the PDF, I have essentially unlimited webspace, so I could put it up for you. There's always a mordor account, too. John --=20 "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry V= I From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 01:06:13 +0200 To: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com From: csant Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <53f976bd0607231349m61fd0d1dw7fe71747699effd2@mail.gmail.com> <8ccc8ba40607251247w2067c350nd8dfc86053ffa796@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8ccc8ba40607251247w2067c350nd8dfc86053ffa796@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.01 (Linux) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8d34cb84-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 >> IIANM Francisco Ballesteros is planning an introductory course to Plan= 9 >> at his university and asked the list about which points people do find >> most confusing and hardest to understand. Will this material be =20 >> available? > > Sure, just give me some time to finish at least a readable draft. The > one I have now is 160pgs or so. But I think I=C2=B4ll need like one mon= th more > to get it stable enough for others to read. And it=C2=B4s for sure that= I=C2=B4ll =20 > have to go over it many times more. But, for what it might be worth, > count with a url for the whole pdf as soon as I get one. Nice, looking forward to it. Thanks :) /c From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:20:39 -0400 From: Dan Cross To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com Message-ID: <20060726182039.GI6226@augusta.math.psu.edu> References: <5c04e44072538158af1aa0c3ce3f7349@plan9.bell-labs.com> <44C54D60.9040803@lanl.gov> <44C62E42.1010904@anvil.com> <1153845661.18642.8.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> <1153848474.18642.13.camel@heater.intranet.ebr> <7AAC45E8-9468-4CD5-A105-D169AF72BCA4@cibernet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7AAC45E8-9468-4CD5-A105-D169AF72BCA4@cibernet.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8e6ab766-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 01:33:44PM -0400, Michael Baldwin wrote: > I feel like responding... oh never mind. I shall do what I'm told, > sir! You are so right: authority needs to put its foot down and not > stand for any funny business. Or else. In general I concur, but I think that, in this case, the business wasn't funny, it was highly offending someone, that person asked the offending party to stop, and the offending party refused. It's not as if Uriel was making references to Star Trek or something equally unimportant or inane. If he had been, I'm quite sure the reaction would have been different. I suspect Uriel may be permitted to rejoin the list once he learns how not to be an asshole. Then again, that may mean he never gets to resubscribe. - Dan C. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44C8D610.4090009@village.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:04:48 -0400 From: Wes Kussmaul User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <06d73c05da5799c7f0057e2bdb88a99f@mail.gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <06d73c05da5799c7f0057e2bdb88a99f@mail.gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8f36e02a-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Sascha Retzki wrote: > In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. It's=20 > called civilisation, I think this world should try that out. The world is trying it out. It's alternatively called VeriSign, GeoTrust,= Thawte, Comodo, etc. As Matt Blaze puts it, "A commercial certification authority protects you= from anyone whose money they refuse to take." The problem with the no-authority-needed view of civilization is that it = ignores the fact that there is some evil in everyone, and it will tend to= prevail if allowed to. Duly constituted public authority (as contrasted with MyNewCityHall(tm) b= rand Authority(tm)) is what tells architects and structural engineers and= contractors that if they follow their natural instinct to cut corners an= d, say, a tunnel roof falls on someone, they'll lose their license to pra= ctice their profession.=20 See quote in my sig below.=20 --=20 Wes Kussmaul CIO The Village Group 738 Main Street Waltham, MA 02451 781-647-7178 My uncle likes to say that the world=92s biggest troubles started when th= e serpent said, =93Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people co= llectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it=92s the = same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.=94 I don=92t get the= serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a = bit obscure.=20 P.K. Iggy _How I Like Fixed The Internet_ (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009 and the prosperity that followed) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44C8DE68.6000707@lanl.gov> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:40:24 -0600 From: Ronald G Minnich User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8-1.1.fc4 (X11/20060501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <06d73c05da5799c7f0057e2bdb88a99f@mail.gmx.net> <44C8D610.4090009@village.com> In-Reply-To: <44C8D610.4090009@village.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8f4780d8-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Wes Kussmaul wrote: > Sascha Retzki wrote: > >> In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. It's >> called civilisation, I think this world should try that out. we did. it failed. see, the arpanet, ca. 1976, where we all trusted each other. Once the masses came in, it was all over. ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44C9049D.2060603@village.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:23:25 -0400 From: Wes Kussmaul User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <06d73c05da5799c7f0057e2bdb88a99f@mail.gmx.net> <44C8D610.4090009@village.com> <44C8DE68.6000707@lanl.gov> In-Reply-To: <44C8DE68.6000707@lanl.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8fb1ac6a-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Ronald G Minnich wrote: >>> In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves.=20 >>> It's called civilisation, I think this world should try that out. > we did. it failed. > > see, the arpanet, ca. 1976, where we all trusted each other. Once the=20 > masses came in, it was all over. 1. CIX and others provided alternate backbones to NSF, enabling=20 commercial traffic 2. Delphi (which I founded) saw the resulting opportunity and started=20 bringing in the masses 3. Delphi was purchased by Rupert Murdoch, who thought the Net was a=20 broadcast medium and thus blew it big time 4. AOL seized on the resulting vacuum and brought in the masses of masses= . So money transformed the Net from an ivy league faculty club into Real=20 Life. Could you envision any other outcome? Money is one of those things that removes civilization from=20 civilization. And money always finds a way in. And yes, I did my part. --=20 Wes Kussmaul CIO The Village Group 738 Main Street Waltham, MA 02451 781-647-7178 My uncle likes to say that the world=92s biggest troubles started when th= e serpent said, =93Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people co= llectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it=92s the = same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.=94 I don=92t get the= serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a = bit obscure.=20 P.K. Iggy _How I Like Fixed The Internet_ (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009 and the prosperity that followed) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44C92002.2010407@telecable.es> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 22:20:18 +0200 From: =?windows-1252?Q?Nicol=E1s_Victorero_Mier?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <06d73c05da5799c7f0057e2bdb88a99f@mail.gmx.net> <44C8D610.4090009@village.com> <44C8DE68.6000707@lanl.gov> <44C9049D.2060603@village.com> In-Reply-To: <44C9049D.2060603@village.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8fc80ef6-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 uriel is a big Plan 9 fan. Hope he'll have the chance to get back. Greetings Nico From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <6585c39236c2e3f2ad32986b228e84f1@quanstro.net> From: erik quanstrom Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:29:04 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <44C9049D.2060603@village.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 9184a2e0-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 while you are right, the net did loose some things when everybody hopped on. there wasn't any spam. internet services were unblocked. &c. on the other hand, network bandwidth was poor and there was very little content available. neither google nor wikipedia would exist without the unwashed masses. i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter) is a story of the good old days and constant regression or the converse. i think it's a story of (slightly? how pessamistic are you?) more advances than regressions. - erik On Thu Jul 27 13:24:54 CDT 2006, wes@village.com wrote: > Ronald G Minnich wrote: > > > > see, the arpanet, ca. 1976, where we all trusted each other. Once the > > masses came in, it was all over. > 1. CIX and others provided alternate backbones to NSF, enabling > commercial traffic > 2. Delphi (which I founded) saw the resulting opportunity and started > bringing in the masses > 3. Delphi was purchased by Rupert Murdoch, who thought the Net was a > broadcast medium and thus blew it big time > 4. AOL seized on the resulting vacuum and brought in the masses of masses. > > So money transformed the Net from an ivy league faculty club into Real > Life. Could you envision any other outcome? > > Money is one of those things that removes civilization from > civilization. And money always finds a way in. And yes, I did my part. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 12:48:04 +0300 From: Harri Haataja Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-reply-to: <6585c39236c2e3f2ad32986b228e84f1@quanstro.net> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-id: <20060728094804.GT1836@XTL.antioffline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline References: <44C9049D.2060603@village.com> <6585c39236c2e3f2ad32986b228e84f1@quanstro.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Topicbox-Message-UUID: 91b421a0-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 09:29:04PM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote: > i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter) > is a story of the good old days and constant regression or the > converse. i think it's a story of (slightly? how pessamistic are > you?) more advances than regressions. Depends also on how much you value the new things, I guess. It was probably the masses that drew all kinds of companies along and now you can contact many places, research products, get manuals and support etc. Well.. sometimes you might. -- "Cheer up, things could be worse." So I cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse. -- from .sig of Gene Cash From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: From: erik quanstrom Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 05:59:13 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com In-Reply-To: <20060728094804.GT1836@XTL.antioffline.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Message-UUID: 91bd886c-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 not to mention newspapers, magazines &c. there are advantages to the net today that have nothing to do with the fact that they are new. - erik On Fri Jul 28 04:48:45 CDT 2006, harriha@mail.student.oulu.fi wrote: > On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 09:29:04PM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote: > > i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter) > > is a story of the good old days and constant regression or the > > converse. i think it's a story of (slightly? how pessamistic are > > you?) more advances than regressions. > > Depends also on how much you value the new things, I guess. It was > probably the masses that drew all kinds of companies along and now you > can contact many places, research products, get manuals and support etc. > Well.. sometimes you might. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <44CA19B5.4060505@village.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 10:05:41 -0400 From: Wes Kussmaul User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com References: <6585c39236c2e3f2ad32986b228e84f1@quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: <6585c39236c2e3f2ad32986b228e84f1@quanstro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Message-UUID: 91f62d66-ead1-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 erik quanstrom wrote: > there wasn't any spam. =20 Ah yes, that's one thing the immigrants from our commercial online=20 services brought with them. Spam. Al Gore may have invented the Net, but=20 our users invented spam. > i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter) i= s a story=20 > of the good old days and constant regression or the converse. i think = it's a story > of (slightly? how pessamistic are you?) more advances than regressions= . > =20 I agree, but I'm real pessimistic about the next 5 years. Then after the fraud and anarchy force the world to institute a=20 universal ID-PKI with privacy protection, things will get better. --=20 Wes Kussmaul CIO The Village Group 738 Main Street Waltham, MA 02451 781-647-7178 My uncle likes to say that the world=92s biggest troubles started when th= e serpent said, =93Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people co= llectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it=92s the = same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.=94 I don=92t get the= serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a = bit obscure.=20 P.K. Iggy _How I Like Fixed The Internet_ (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009 and the prosperity that followed)