From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4755 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2021 15:47:37 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 22 Aug 2021 15:47:37 -0000 Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25796305E6 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 11:47:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mM8658a330dbb6ca9a6e216777.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 1A70C3330447; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 11:47:33 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b=nMynfnSW header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20150623 x-bits=2048; dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=iitbombay.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=bakul@iitbombay.org smtp.helo=mail-qk1-f182.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (body has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=from:content-type:mime-version:subject:date :references:to:in-reply-to:message-id:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :list-unsubscribe; s=sysmsg-1; t=1629647252; bh=XGAnRr12p1ePGwBO ztCeHI0ETdBYsfPrDUcQyVTsbLk=; b=Re6R/fQ0Ctuwi2oSun5oxXj5GgnItErJ TPy3UfMn+8mTt0xHxIWcIA8hgqI1h+ZflKoOqVipC66prfklDm5KEOwnbOpVHNML cCTj7zl3D5ZBGmRyg8tHDHSKgFrejIHKPwgt3U8NF77zfyqwifwKTdaIR3HiFB3m xuFxu/NIPGs= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1629647252; b=Zo4ckzXow34WRKeGeTNQ3sffD8qIYo5vGO38+eaCEXmb+bJbQI MR/o02FzQFKwB4wI/UMl4t18zLvrflcD+5gNNrfdBQ93RJ7uXYvmrqLQIQriOVu9 R+UJRRRRsKTzmxO0WlpzZX3kECeURWH66fwFBB3v2cc7T0NbYIhfWAyqI= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b=nMynfnSW header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20150623 x-bits=2048; dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=iitbombay.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=bakul@iitbombay.org smtp.helo=mail-qk1-f182.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (body has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC did not pass); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b=nMynfnSW header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20150623 x-bits=2048; dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=iitbombay.org; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.222.182 (mail-qk1-f182.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=bakul@iitbombay.org smtp.helo=mail-qk1-f182.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=t7nKQbwp; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-qk1-f182.google.com policy.ptr=mail-qk1-f182.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=iitbombay.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt4.aspmx.l.google.com,alt1.aspmx.l.google.com,aspmx.l.google.com,alt2.aspmx.l.google.com,alt3.aspmx.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=iitbombay.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt4.aspmx.l.google.com,alt1.aspmx.l.google.com,aspmx.l.google.com,alt2.aspmx.l.google.com,alt3.aspmx.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=from :content-type:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id:list-help:list-id:list-post :list-subscribe:reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=4RxzoWPFy/Bl+/zyCX77dxeATU+vo3i3 mzAg8GEh7fU=; b=dP454XPRclCsfHgfjCo+oHS86pck8ph+VZ19oRacj0+m2+VT CijvBAWsFD1upLLQwl9+Pvwzokq5uXVBosjD3dSmc4dj5VY9laCNrmm3hAGMsoht rA2x5OoU463Q4475REMGlETQuXacPMQqHcHAqxFI8MaeyPKZHY4ZBwZxQ4Q= Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECEB7333004E for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 11:47:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bakul@iitbombay.org) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id A8692DE7270; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 11:47:21 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1629647241; b=q8bvNwnDjN5OYIV3ETrKwEXxMjcQE7zggiiuuwTWISFZ13EHv6 w7g6pvQP1jWwpo5rhm7OFtbpsi43jrBoD3lFiKE2D7vq/3CXBfyIT4jcxXccQIEj 34dfhmP5CExz1yeZGgRFOpYRpnXXpMXtsgyCpVyMlRKPCPmncKBsNg9c0MkTl/6j vcxx6JQNhEwnkZbJHltC4pOpC37g4qpRt10xlDnuVyeG6lnLHyrtFrviR77/HbCV XrdU36yhLXUxElf3FZ58cUiCcv+kSDy5DtvPS/J8kFX3vr+2Ne8VD+hbng3ZEE6X fOpRveIrzE25pgBaYHIrzgOm1fh4qPSZ39DA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=from:content-type:mime-version:subject:date :references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; s=arcseal; t=1629647241; bh=VohCkY54e0sVL7y0h2VZ7coOTPn6OEgfUmY84xz2TNg=; b=XKqJfIVxGzF+ wneo4OHe1QKYyvwEQXiTa6pEsgcht+tSI1WAXQkzeIGo9bzf67jdmtjRzF7PrzIg FQgsZ9vdxVWj6PTVVsQFjH1AbwRJ+Xg4lkfyGj92Q+kfQknRghOfaX6HhYpauzjz 8bQn9cRIaYUiBvO/ymR07RrgEG8le6xXKZijqLtjaTC3D2NfG4GsuqCazR88MKc+ BJwS7hYUY+Tjb1FA9G+kSPoNBqJwsl4p6pbqeTJp0KyNPjzGKRJ4CT4Zjj0qNVVl MrfTzC2y7IjM6nhsCICDIgrxS/D5Y5YehCn59AUBAZ3q2PQ4b7R7pgtReMgcn3eO wClo86khrA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx1.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC did not pass); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@iitbombay-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b=nMynfnSW header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20150623 x-bits=2048; dmarc=none policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=iitbombay.org; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.222.182 (mail-qk1-f182.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=bakul@iitbombay.org smtp.helo=mail-qk1-f182.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=t7nKQbwp; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-qk1-f182.google.com policy.ptr=mail-qk1-f182.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=iitbombay.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt4.aspmx.l.google.com,alt1.aspmx.l.google.com,aspmx.l.google.com,alt2.aspmx.l.google.com,alt3.aspmx.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=iitbombay.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt4.aspmx.l.google.com,alt1.aspmx.l.google.com,aspmx.l.google.com,alt2.aspmx.l.google.com,alt3.aspmx.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddruddtuddgledtucdltddurdegudelrddttd dmucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgf nhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttd enucenucfjughrpefhtggguffffhfvjgfkofesrgdtmherhhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepuegr khhulhcuufhhrghhuceosggrkhhulhesihhithgsohhmsggrhidrohhrgheqnecuggftrf grthhtvghrnhephfdvtdetleduvdejkeekffejffejleejjeeileevledvhffgudehtdel keeigeefnecuffhomhgrihhnpegrmhgurdgtohhmpdhtohhpihgtsghogidrtghomhenuc fkphepvddtledrkeehrddvvddvrddukedvpddutdejrddvudehrddvvdefrddvvdelnecu vehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthepvddtledrkeehrddvvd dvrddukedvpdhhvghlohepmhgrihhlqdhqkhduqdhfudekvddrghhoohhglhgvrdgtohhm pdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepoegsrghkuhhlsehiihhtsghomhgsrgihrdhorhhgqe X-ME-VSScore: 0 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (iitbombay.org: Sender is authorized to use 'bakul@iitbombay.org' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_spf.google.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx1.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="bakul@iitbombay.org"; helo=mail-qk1-f182.google.com; client-ip=209.85.222.182 Received: from mail-qk1-f182.google.com (mail-qk1-f182.google.com [209.85.222.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 11:47:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bakul@iitbombay.org) Received: by mail-qk1-f182.google.com with SMTP id t190so16562122qke.7 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 08:47:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=VohCkY54e0sVL7y0h2VZ7coOTPn6OEgfUmY84xz2TNg=; b=t7nKQbwpS/G2p8byn+tO6vAcrMt6rawL2cvJAPSp6N4if2W8LR2zGXKdyS6ZuuKDTh FwzvCP8BHqYv2RNMSWCJ80jwWLyYGpzH+Y6TrKOKd/aK26MJ5mgGPNj5VSl/7XNK4nQD o22kh9idkY5Na/bu84/EiXxlWo7qngiRr8hK02jIQ40xk+zwaGVnx825NbYJaNhx0C7x akj2h+pwpn8BNNTFRs/46bgsLLbG9OZnYD6TWMAzj+VSfi9iYA2mYp+OyWNOYoLs59Qn 2sMtHLOkFi1EWSjeV9xdNK0vCDMIC8aiV9zkXr3IFQOsTjVQIVVztO21fUHCbg0ojoy9 kbGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533q6ICp8Tx76beHpmOoVjl7c8p/U3FaNRZEV9Lso71Wu87drvSi dpIkpcs65GZ8zo/0gqxxOEUjOI/0GrbyBUZm X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwf7nuIYpU5k8BfYpe2IrFVU2bnP/Z3CKLgFIPlyLF2RHdcqJYRc+9z5ntJbfkzpP4geAtRlQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:6cd:: with SMTP id 13mr17577570qky.10.1629647240630; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 08:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (107-215-223-229.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m187sm6749692qkd.131.2021.08.22.08.47.19 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 22 Aug 2021 08:47:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4DF08942-77B9-4F1C-98A2-141999F70288" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Subject: Re: [9fans] Drawterm GPU (was: Software philosophy) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 08:47:19 -0700 References: <92764e35-f5cf-460a-91df-050ba471e6dd@sirjofri.de> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <9352EE7C-AE94-4C1C-8738-5A1DA8ECE5A7@iitbombay.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 400794f0-0360-11ec-b533-b61a95c59501 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYWQyOWJmYzIyM2RjNGZiZS1NODY1OGEzMzBkYmI2Y2E5YTZlMjE2?= =?UTF-8?B?Nzc3Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M8658a330dbb6ca9a6e216777:1:AIaADUZe0cWb6vafJva9PZPaskg0GfeOvIZNYRiq7us --Apple-Mail=_4DF08942-77B9-4F1C-98A2-141999F70288 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The FreeBSD amdgpu.ko is over 3Mbytes of compiled code. Not counting the "f= irmware" that gets loaded on the GPU board. drm/amd/amdgpu has 200K+ lines = of source code. drm/amd over 2M lines of code. Intel's i915 seems to be abo= ut 1/10th the amd size. AIUI, this is linux GPU driver code, more or less u= nchanged (FreeBSD has shim code to use it). How did the interface to an SIM= D processor get so complicated? > On Aug 22, 2021, at 6:44 AM, Paul Lalonde > wrote: >=20 > I'd love to see GPU support for Plan9. This discussion falls right into= my professional capacity. I'll say that people generally *grossly* undere= stimate the complexity of a modern GPU and of its supporting software stack= . The GPU driver is effectively a second operating system with shared memo= ry and DMA interfaces to the host. Even bringing up a modern GPU for just = compute tasks is a very large endeavour. >=20 > That being said, if you want real hardware support, the best place to sta= rt is currently AMD's open-source stack. Ignoring the Vulkan bit, understa= nding their platform abstraction layer (PAL) and shader ISA (https://develo= per.amd.com/wp-content/resources/Vega_Shader_ISA_28July2017.pdf ) is th= e base. The lower hardware levels are reasonably well-described in linux's= libdrm and its AMD support in amdgpu. >=20 > Opinions on how to bring this to Plan9? I don't really have any - it's a= huge pile of work with minimal benefit. If you're looking for lightweight= graphics, WebGL is a doable path, and almost certainly the right way to ex= periment with Plan9-like interfaces to graphics hardware. >=20 > Paul >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 5:30 AM sirjofri > wrote: >=20 > 22.08.2021 14:10:20 Stuart Morrow >: > > Also: > >> people have discussed that for years > > > > They have? I mean I might have seen occasionally someone vaguely > > going "some sort of GPU support would be cool to have". That isn't > > discussion. >=20 > I've even heard of someone actually making GPU stuff work on plan 9. I've= =20 > only heard from their partner, who made a cute glenda thing on a piece of= =20 > cloth. I chatted with her a little and told her she should encourage her= =20 > partner for some discussion about this in our channels. It looked like=20 > it's some academic work, but I don't know any details about it. >=20 > Worst case, someone already has a proper and good GPU implementation for= =20 > Plan 9 and nobody knows about it. >=20 > sirjofri >=20 > Btw if the said person reads this: it would be nice to learn some=20 > details. >=20 > ------------------------------------------ > 9fans: 9fans > Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad29bfc223dc4fbe-Md3d= 5cd693c12f948ad4720bc > Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery=C2=A0options Permalink -- Bakul ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad29bfc223dc4fbe-M8658a= 330dbb6ca9a6e216777 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --Apple-Mail=_4DF08942-77B9-4F1C-98A2-141999F70288 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
The FreeBSD amdgpu.ko is over 3Mbytes o= f compiled code. Not counting the "firmware" that gets loaded on = the GPU board. drm/amd/amdgpu has 200K+ lines of source code. drm/amd over = 2M lines of code. Intel's i915 seems to be about 1/10th the amd size. A= IUI, this is linux GPU driver code, more or less unchanged (FreeBSD has shi= m code to use it). How did the interface to an SIMD processor get so compli= cated?

On Aug 22, 2021, at 6:44 AM, Paul Lalonde = <paul.a.lalonde@g= mail.com> wrote:

I'd love to see  GPU suppo= rt for Plan9.  This discussion falls right into my professional capaci= ty.  I'll say that people generally *grossly* underestimate the co= mplexity of a modern GPU and of its supporting software stack.  The GP= U driver is effectively a second operating system with shared memory and DM= A interfaces to the host.  Even bringing up a modern GPU for just comp= ute tasks is a very large endeavour.

=
That being said, if you want real hardware support, th= e best place to start is currently AMD's open-source stack.  Ignor= ing the Vulkan bit, understanding their platform abstraction layer (PAL) an= d shader ISA (https://developer.amd.com/wp-conten= t/resources/Vega_Shader_ISA_28July2017.pdf) is the base.  The lowe= r hardware levels are reasonably well-described in linux's libdrm = and its AMD support in amdgpu.

=
Opinions on how to bring this to Plan9?  I don't r= eally have any - it's a huge pile of work with minimal benefit.  I= f you're looking for lightweight graphics, WebGL is a doable path, and = almost certainly the right way to experiment with Plan9-like interfaces to = graphics hardware.

Paul



On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 5:30 AM sirjofri &l= t;sirjofri+ml= -9fans@sirjofri.de> wrote:

22.08.2021 14:10:20 Stuart Morrow <morrow.stuart@gmail.com>:
> Also:
>> people have discussed that for years
>
> They have?  I mean I might have seen occasionally someone vaguely=
> going "some sort of GPU support would be cool to have". = ; That isn't
> discussion.

I've even heard of someone actually making GPU stuff work on plan 9. I&= #39;ve
only heard from their partner, who made a cute glenda thing on a piece of <= br class=3D"" /> cloth. I chatted with her a little and told her she should encourage her partner for some discussion about this in our channels. It looked like
it's some academic work, but I don't know any details about it.

Worst case, someone already has a proper and good GPU implementation for Plan 9 and nobody knows about it.

sirjofri

Btw if the said person reads this: it would be nice to learn some
details.

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad29bfc223dc4fbe-Md3d5cd693c1= 2f948ad4720bc
Delivery options: https://9fans.topic= box.com/groups/9fans/subscription



-- Bakul

= --Apple-Mail=_4DF08942-77B9-4F1C-98A2-141999F70288--