From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:50:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3e1162e60907311050p34d7aecfm79f841ab25ced2af@mail.gmail.com> From: David Leimbach To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd56b08af467e0470040d6c Subject: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 33b0b484-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --000e0cd56b08af467e0470040d6c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A buddy of mine just got this: asus p5ql/epu motherboard. It came with Splashtop: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splashtop ... which is a linux distribution that boots in like 5 seconds or so. Complete with BlackBox for a window manager, Skype, an instant messager client and firefox. I wonder if it could be changed to be a plan 9 terminal, or if one could at least get 9vx on it. Dave --000e0cd56b08af467e0470040d6c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =A0A buddy of mine just got this: asus p5ql/epu motherboard. =A0It came wit= h Splashtop: =A0http://e= n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splashtop

... which is a linux = distribution that boots in like 5 seconds or so. =A0Complete with BlackBox = for a window manager, Skype, an instant messager client and firefox.

I wonder if it could be changed to be a plan 9 terminal= , or if one could at least get 9vx on it.

Dave --000e0cd56b08af467e0470040d6c-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3e1162e60907311050p34d7aecfm79f841ab25ced2af@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e1162e60907311050p34d7aecfm79f841ab25ced2af@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:56:26 -0400 Message-ID: <3aaafc130907311856o100b2f4btf15d2f522e8f4d2b@mail.gmail.com> From: "J.R. Mauro" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 341396da-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:50 PM, David Leimbach wrote: > =A0A buddy of mine just got this: asus p5ql/epu motherboard. =A0It came w= ith > Splashtop: =A0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splashtop > ... which is a linux distribution that boots in like 5 seconds or so. > =A0Complete with BlackBox for a window manager, Skype, an instant message= r > client and firefox. > I wonder if it could be changed to be a plan 9 terminal, or if one could = at > least get 9vx on it. > Dave Doesn't ASUS burn the Linux distro into a chip, though? Maybe there are utilities to flash it with something else. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3aaafc130907311856o100b2f4btf15d2f522e8f4d2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e1162e60907311050p34d7aecfm79f841ab25ced2af@mail.gmail.com> <3aaafc130907311856o100b2f4btf15d2f522e8f4d2b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:12:31 -0700 Message-ID: <13426df10907312012o65cceda4r45a97a981e2dcafa@mail.gmail.com> From: ron minnich To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 341867e6-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 6:56 PM, J.R. Mauro wrote: > Doesn't ASUS burn the Linux distro into a chip, though? Maybe there > are utilities to flash it with something else. see flashrom at coreboot.org This is a great idea assuming we can get a mobo that plan 9 can use. ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <6734c542c37eebd5e3cb4f064dea04b3@quanstro.net> From: erik quanstrom Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 07:58:10 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: <13426df10907312012o65cceda4r45a97a981e2dcafa@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 343ad9a2-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Fri Jul 31 23:13:51 EDT 2009, rminnich@gmail.com wrote: > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 6:56 PM, J.R. Mauro wrote: > > > Doesn't ASUS burn the Linux distro into a chip, though? Maybe there > > are utilities to flash it with something else. > > see flashrom at coreboot.org > > This is a great idea assuming we can get a mobo that plan 9 can use. why not just use normal hardware and buy a DOM for it? none of coraid's machines, including the fileserver (!) have spinning media. only the srs (coraid storage appliances) do. you can get a 128mb pata dom for $13 and sata for $30 at memorydepot.com (not an endorsement but i've purchased from them before.) i would imagine that regular mb + dom would be competitive with the asus boards. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: tlaronde@polynum.com Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 16:51:45 +0200 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <20090801145145.GA1044@polynum.com> References: <13426df10907312012o65cceda4r45a97a981e2dcafa@mail.gmail.com> <6734c542c37eebd5e3cb4f064dea04b3@quanstro.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6734c542c37eebd5e3cb4f064dea04b3@quanstro.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 34505e44-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 07:58:10AM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: > > why not just use normal hardware and buy a DOM for it? > none of coraid's machines, including the fileserver (!) have > spinning media. only the srs (coraid storage appliances) do. > > you can get a 128mb pata dom for $13 and sata for $30 > at memorydepot.com (not an endorsement but i've purchased > from them before.) Well, if the DOM is compatible with traditionnal IDE it could be, too, an option for installation: an easily pluggable HD instead of floppy or CD. I didn't even know that this exists... so thanks for the tip, Erik! -- Thierry Laronde (Alceste) http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <13a1400191b9e6b9c8097fba4966d838@quanstro.net> From: erik quanstrom Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 10:57:32 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: <20090801145145.GA1044@polynum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 345b6dca-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Well, if the DOM is compatible with traditionnal IDE it could be, too, > an option for installation: an easily pluggable HD instead of floppy or > CD. the dom is compatable with traditional ide, and with the distributed sdata.c. before i found the doms, i used a pata <-> cf bridge. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090801145145.GA1044@polynum.com> References: <13426df10907312012o65cceda4r45a97a981e2dcafa@mail.gmail.com> <6734c542c37eebd5e3cb4f064dea04b3@quanstro.net> <20090801145145.GA1044@polynum.com> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 08:49:12 -0700 Message-ID: <13426df10908010849g8bf24a9nbde0b817b7b3e65e@mail.gmail.com> From: ron minnich To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3466d1f6-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 btw the sata FLASH parts are surprisingly fast. Not at all like USB sticks, if that is what you are used to. ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <13426df10908010849g8bf24a9nbde0b817b7b3e65e@mail.gmail.com> References: <13426df10907312012o65cceda4r45a97a981e2dcafa@mail.gmail.com> <6734c542c37eebd5e3cb4f064dea04b3@quanstro.net> <20090801145145.GA1044@polynum.com> <13426df10908010849g8bf24a9nbde0b817b7b3e65e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 15:10:55 -0400 Message-ID: <3aaafc130908011210u62ed019ev5a91bf668e8fe9d3@mail.gmail.com> From: "J.R. Mauro" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 346c4820-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 11:49 AM, ron minnich wrote: > btw the sata FLASH parts are surprisingly fast. Not at all like USB > sticks, if that is what you are used to. > ron > > Ron, have you researched any long-term wear studies on these flash drives? I've heard a lot of good things, but I'm really put off by terms like "wear levelling", filesystems optimized to work around flash's delicateness, etc. I'm really interested in any numbers anyone has. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <4A75003B.8090800@degood.org> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 22:55:55 -0400 From: John DeGood User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> References: <3e1162e60907311050p34d7aecfm79f841ab25ced2af@mail.gmail.com> <3aaafc130907311856o100b2f4btf15d2f522e8f4d2b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3aaafc130907311856o100b2f4btf15d2f522e8f4d2b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 355f41d8-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 J.R. Mauro wrote: > Doesn't ASUS burn the Linux distro into a chip, though? Maybe there > are utilities to flash it with something else. I believe new ASUS motherboards typically boot Splashtop from hard disk, not from flash. On my ASUS M4A78 PLUS, Splashtop can be installed into a directory tree "\ASUS.SYS" (~500 MB) on any partition with a Windows filesystem. The ASUS BIOS displays a gaudy splashscreen that allows the user to choose Splashtop or the normal OS. Source seems to be here: http://www.splashtop.com/open_source.php John From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4A75003B.8090800@degood.org> References: <3e1162e60907311050p34d7aecfm79f841ab25ced2af@mail.gmail.com> <3aaafc130907311856o100b2f4btf15d2f522e8f4d2b@mail.gmail.com> <4A75003B.8090800@degood.org> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 23:16:32 -0400 Message-ID: <3aaafc130908012016h1272446ap180303dd84e83eca@mail.gmail.com> From: "J.R. Mauro" To: john@degood.org, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 356575c6-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 10:55 PM, John DeGood wrote: > J.R. Mauro wrote: >> Doesn't ASUS burn the Linux distro into a chip, though? Maybe there >> are utilities to flash it with something else. > > I believe new ASUS motherboards typically boot Splashtop from hard disk, > not from flash. Thanks for setting that straight -- my reference was a couple of old articles with wording that Asus was going to put Splashtop on their computers in flash. Obviously the articles I remember are long obsolete. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 14:17:37 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3aaafc130908011210u62ed019ev5a91bf668e8fe9d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <13426df10907312012o65cceda4r45a97a981e2dcafa@mail.gmail.com> <6734c542c37eebd5e3cb4f064dea04b3@quanstro.net> <20090801145145.GA1044@polynum.com> <13426df10908010849g8bf24a9nbde0b817b7b3e65e@mail.gmail.com> <3aaafc130908011210u62ed019ev5a91bf668e8fe9d3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3585c2a4-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Ron, have you researched any long-term wear studies on these flash > drives? I've heard a lot of good things, > but I'm really put off by terms like "wear levelling", filesystems > optimized to work around flash's delicateness, > etc. > > I'm really interested in any numbers anyone has. just looking at the intel x25-e datasheet, the URE rate (unrecoverable read error) is the same as enterprise sata drives at 1e-15, but the mtbf is higher, but within a factor of two. assuming honest mtbf numbers, one would expect similar ures for the same io workload on the same size data set as mechanical disks. since flash drives are much smaller, there would obviously be fewer ures per drive. but needing 10x more drives, the mtbf would be worse per byte of storage than enterprise sata drives. so you'd see more overall failures. conclusion: you'll need raid for flash drives, too. this is a pretty suprising result. and i'm sure that a large number of people are going to jump up and argue. but here are the datasheets. http://download.intel.com/design/flash/nand/extreme/319984.pdf http://www.wdc.com/en/library/spec/2879-701281.pdf (i didn't see the wdc mtbf but i've seen it quoted as 1.2Mhrs, as http://hothardware.com/News/WD-Introduces-RE3-Enterprise-SATA-Hard-Drives/ ) perhaps the reason that it's so suprising is the same reason we didn't pay attention to the ure rate when hard drives were 512mb. would you expect to have a bad spot in 2,000 fujitsu eagles? that's ~ the amount of data you can store on one tb drive. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <13426df10907312012o65cceda4r45a97a981e2dcafa@mail.gmail.com> <6734c542c37eebd5e3cb4f064dea04b3@quanstro.net> <20090801145145.GA1044@polynum.com> <13426df10908010849g8bf24a9nbde0b817b7b3e65e@mail.gmail.com> <3aaafc130908011210u62ed019ev5a91bf668e8fe9d3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 15:23:30 -0400 Message-ID: <509071940908021223j4ede8588s5ed1854aecebc5e9@mail.gmail.com> From: Anthony Sorace To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 35bd8efa-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 14:17, erik quanstrom wrote: > assuming honest mtbf numbers, one would expect similar > ures for the same io workload on the same size data set > as mechanical disks. =C2=A0since flash drives are much smaller, > there would obviously be fewer ures per drive. =C2=A0but needing > 10x more drives, the mtbf would be worse per byte of storage > than enterprise sata drives. =C2=A0so you'd see more overall failures. this depends on usage, obviously. i think it misses the point that there's plenty of applications where the smaller storage (assuming a single unit) is perfectly adequate. i swapped out the HD in my laptop for a SD drive: the reduction in size is entirely workable, and the other benefits make the trade a big win. there're plenty of applications where i need relatively little raw storage: laptops, boot media for network terminals, embedded things. for large-scale storage, your analysis is much more appropriate. my file server remains based on spinning magnetic disks, and i expect that's likely to be the case for a long time. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <47ec4ee980481cba90cd8510f0f3f519@quanstro.net> From: erik quanstrom Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 18:16:43 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: <509071940908021223j4ede8588s5ed1854aecebc5e9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 35f9796a-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > > assuming honest mtbf numbers, one would expect similar > > ures for the same io workload on the same size data set > > as mechanical disks.  since flash drives are much smaller, > > there would obviously be fewer ures per drive.  but needing > > 10x more drives, the mtbf would be worse per byte of storage > > than enterprise sata drives.  so you'd see more overall failures. > > this depends on usage, obviously. i think it misses the point that > there's plenty of applications where the smaller storage (assuming a > single unit) is perfectly adequate. i swapped out the HD in my laptop > for a SD drive: the reduction in size is entirely workable, and the > other benefits make the trade a big win. there're plenty of > applications where i need relatively little raw storage: laptops, boot > media for network terminals, embedded things. > > for large-scale storage, your analysis is much more appropriate. my > file server remains based on spinning magnetic disks, and i expect > that's likely to be the case for a long time. on the other hand, since the ure rate is the same for a mechanical disk as for your flash drive, one can't claim that it's "more reliable". it will return an unreadable error just as often. limiting your dataset on a mechanical hard drive would accomplish the same goal for less cash. and the afr (dirty secret: the mtbf number is actually the extrapolated afr^-1) is only 0.4% instead of 0.7%. at that rate, something else is more likey to eat your laptop (gartner sez 20%/year. but that's for the intel enterprise ssd, which costs more than most laptops. this article claims that flash is currently less reliable the old-fashoned disks: http://www.pcworld.com/article/143558/laptop_flash_drives_hit_by_high_failure_rates.html surprising, no? there are still plenty of reasons to want an ssd. it just seems that reliablity isn't one of those reasons yet. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <47ec4ee980481cba90cd8510f0f3f519@quanstro.net> References: <509071940908021223j4ede8588s5ed1854aecebc5e9@mail.gmail.com> <47ec4ee980481cba90cd8510f0f3f519@quanstro.net> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 20:23:00 -0400 Message-ID: <9ab217670908021723p61cb55f0t1b1b4ef204bf5012@mail.gmail.com> From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 360f0280-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 2009/8/2 erik quanstrom : > http://www.pcworld.com/article/143558/laptop_flash_drives_hit_by_high_fai= lure_rates.html > > surprising, no? =A0there are still plenty of reasons to want an > ssd. =A0it just seems that reliablity isn't one of those reasons yet. The big one for me has always been that I tend to drop the sort of machines while they're running. Does a lot to the MTBF for standard drives... not so much for SSD. --dho > - erik > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <0a1fa6f3017e985995ffc4c5eccd3b2c@quanstro.net> From: erik quanstrom Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 20:37:32 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: <9ab217670908021723p61cb55f0t1b1b4ef204bf5012@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 36154ee2-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > 2009/8/2 erik quanstrom : > > http://www.pcworld.com/article/143558/laptop_flash_drives_hit_by_high_failure_rates.html > > > > surprising, no?  there are still plenty of reasons to want an > > ssd.  it just seems that reliablity isn't one of those reasons yet. > > The big one for me has always been that I tend to drop the sort of > machines while they're running. Does a lot to the MTBF for standard > drives... not so much for SSD. doesn't this make the pcworld figures even more surprising? - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <4A7646DB.7020403@degood.org> Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 22:09:31 -0400 From: John DeGood User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> References: <13426df10907312012o65cceda4r45a97a981e2dcafa@mail.gmail.com> <6734c542c37eebd5e3cb4f064dea04b3@quanstro.net> <20090801145145.GA1044@polynum.com> <13426df10908010849g8bf24a9nbde0b817b7b3e65e@mail.gmail.com> <3aaafc130908011210u62ed019ev5a91bf668e8fe9d3@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 36197c6a-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 erik quanstrom wrote: > just looking at the intel x25-e datasheet, the URE rate > (unrecoverable read error) is the same as enterprise sata > drives at 1e-15, but the mtbf is higher, but within a factor > of two. > > assuming honest mtbf numbers, one would expect similar > ures for the same io workload on the same size data set > as mechanical disks. ... > here are the datasheets. > > http://download.intel.com/design/flash/nand/extreme/319984.pdf > http://www.wdc.com/en/library/spec/2879-701281.pdf For the Intel SSD one must also consider: > 3.5.4 Write Endurance > 32 GB drive supports 1 petabyte of lifetime random writes and 64 GB drive supports 2 petabyte of lifetime random writes. That is equivalent to writing the capacity of the SSD 31250 times. At the specified random 4K write rate of 3300 IOPS one could wear out the SSD in 876 days. Non-random writes could cause more rapid wear, depending on their pattern and the wear leveling algorithms in the SSD. John From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <93911a18f997c5389110851f30a25fc0@quanstro.net> From: erik quanstrom Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 00:38:02 -0400 To: john@degood.org, 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: <4A7646DB.7020403@degood.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 361e2e68-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > For the Intel SSD one must also consider: > > > 3.5.4 Write Endurance > > 32 GB drive supports 1 petabyte of lifetime random writes and 64 GB drive supports 2 petabyte of lifetime random writes. > That is equivalent to writing the capacity of the SSD 31250 times. At > the specified random 4K write rate of 3300 IOPS one could wear out the > SSD in 876 days. Non-random writes could cause more rapid wear, > depending on their pattern and the wear leveling algorithms in the SSD. do you think this is a serious limitation? by my calculation, assuming that you read everything written at least once and 10x faster read than write leading to 3300 iops taking 1.1s 1000^5 bytes /(3300 s^-1 * 1.1^-1 * 4*1024 bytes)/86400s/day = 942 days this is 153 days short of the product lifetime. by the way, one would expect ~8 ures during this test (8e15 bits/1 ure/1e-15 bits). (http://download.intel.com/support/ssdc/hpssd/sb/english_ssd_3_year_warranty.pdf) do you really think its reasonable that someone could run this drive at 100% of capacity for 2½ years? even allowing for shipping and installation time will get you pretty close to the warranty. can you think of how this could be done with a plan 9 application that's doing something useful? it's hard to know if non-random writes create more wear than intel specifies or not. strictly sequential i/o should create similar wear because 16 4k writes can be combined into one flash cycle and 16*3300*4k is about 216 mb/s. so i don't see how you can get in more flash cycles than 3300/s and increase the wear rate. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <4A76EC23.6050907@degood.org> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 09:54:43 -0400 From: John DeGood User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> References: <93911a18f997c5389110851f30a25fc0@quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: <93911a18f997c5389110851f30a25fc0@quanstro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3661af62-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 erik quanstrom wrote: > do you really think its reasonable that someone could run this > drive at 100% of capacity for 2½ years? even allowing for shipping > and installation time will get you pretty close to the warranty. > can you think of how this could be done with a plan 9 application > that's doing something useful? > > it's hard to know if non-random writes create more wear than intel > specifies or not. strictly sequential i/o should create similar wear > because 16 4k writes can be combined into one flash cycle and > 16*3300*4k is about 216 mb/s. so i don't see how you can get in > more flash cycles than 3300/s and increase the wear rate. Short flash lifetimes in some consumer products have been attributed to poor or even nonexistent wear leveling algorithms. If the wear leveling algorithms used in SSDs are very good and the usage pattern doesn't tickle some pathological case, then flash wear will probably not be an issue. I look forward to someone like Google or one of the DoE sites deploying large numbers of SSDs and publishing reliability statistics. John From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Dave Eckhardt To: 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <13307.1249706803.1@lunacy.ugrad.cs.cmu.edu> Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 00:46:43 -0400 Message-ID: <13308.1249706803@lunacy.ugrad.cs.cmu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3ddbe802-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > would you expect to have a bad spot in 2,000 fujitsu eagles? If you do, I have a repair manual. Dave Eckhardt From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <4cd393ce8c1c7fc28e58910eec4aa8ba@quanstro.net> From: erik quanstrom Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 07:37:31 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: <13308.1249706803@lunacy.ugrad.cs.cmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like) Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3e181a5c-ead5-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Sat Aug 8 00:47:40 EDT 2009, davide+p9@cs.cmu.edu wrote: > > would you expect to have a bad spot in 2,000 fujitsu eagles? > > If you do, I have a repair manual. i prefer two strong oxen. - erik