On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:20 AM, Skip Tav= akkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:

it is (or was) in fgb's contrib. he ported it over back in 2006.

cpue% js
js> help()
JavaScript-C 1.5 pre-release 6a 2004-06-09

So it is even better, than I thought :-).

G.<= /div>

--001636457dca3005a904a2961433-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 00:06:39 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References:

In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201105060006.39265.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: de2401cc-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thursday, May 05, 2011 10:20:47 PM Skip Tavakkolian wrote: > it is (or was) in fgb's contrib. he ported it over back in 2006. > > cpue% js > js> help() > JavaScript-C 1.5 pre-release 6a 2004-06-09 > Right on. One step closer to web domination from a plan 9 platform. (: Thankyou kindly for the heads-up. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 00:08:04 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201105060008.05067.errno@cox.net> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: de505880-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thursday, May 05, 2011 09:35:15 PM ron minnich wrote: > The reason I asked if errno had looked at webfs was that he can do the > standard thing (port some C++/Python Library From Hell to Plan 9) > The above described standard thing is more in line with my capabilities. Porting clang is well beyond me though, even at my most optimistic; so I've decided to dedicate time toward looking more closely into porting the netsurf libs for css, html and dom; and mozilla's spidermonkey - as they are further along than webfs/abaco ("further along", meaning seemingly more active and current), and I can focus simply on a port, rather than green-field design and development from scratch. In other words, I think I can manage to eventually port small ad-hoc stuff; and then slowly "bake" it closer and closer to something that is more and more "9'ish". Although I think I understand that the prevailing custom here on 9fans is to scorn most software written by and for the unwashed masses - or for the general consumer industry - I'm not so convinced that a reasonable compromise can't exist to fulfill the needs of a class of user who exist a little higher up the stack than, say, low-level systems programmers working on specialist projects within industrial or academic research and development facilities. > or do a much more interesting thing, which is look at stuff like abaco > and webfs, and learn some lessons, and build something that is faster, > better, and cheaper. > It's more interesting, yes - but I fear also far, far less likely for me to pull off; no one else has managed to pull it off yet, there's no way I can. (Like I said before: I write backend business logic for web-based applications in java/groovy and perl and shell, along w/ some db and network administration etc. on linux; my skills are humble, but serviceable for what I do for a living .... not to give you my life story or anything... heheh) In other words, I'm fully cognizant of the fact that I do not have the necessary pre-requisite experience to build a better mouse trap. > This is a research OS, not a Windows replacement. > There's a reason to use it. You want a great desktop experience that > is familiar, get an ipad. > Aww... man. Do you not think it's possible or worthwhile to have a great(er) desktop (or consumer-oriented embedded device) experience built atop Plan 9? After a few months of reading and learning and actual hands-on experience, I've found that rio and acme and mk and 8c ,etc., are far less interesting than union directories, per-process namespaces, 9p and intrinsic, ubiquitous distributed computing - that's where I personally think the action is at. I don't care what editor or compiler someone uses; but the idea of cpu'ing from a smartphone to run heavy-weight processes (for just one example) gets the geek in me pretty excited with possibility. Or the idea of a home network where I have one cpu/auth server, one file server and a number of super cheap thin-clients providing a modern web interface and shared data for friends, guests and family. I'm tired of maintaining everyone's computers in my house on an ad-hoc basis; and I think I could deploy a higher performing, more maintainable, but overall cheaper network with Plan 9. But I can hardly expect visitors and family to run acme and abaco. Cheers From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net> References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 09:08:08 +0200 Message-ID: From: ron minnich To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: de3710c8-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, errno wrote: > The above described standard thing is more in line with my capabilities. yes, but that is not the issue, or should not be. The issue should be "what's the way to get to goal in an esthetic manner". There's plenty of systems you can take what you know and get something going. If you're not here to learn, then what's the point? > In other words, I think I can manage to eventually port small ad-hoc > stuff; and then slowly "bake" it closer and closer to something that > is more and more "9'ish". I don't agree. Put it this way: if your something doesn't start with webfs then it's probably impossible to make 9-ish. > After a few months of reading and learning and actual hands-on > experience, I've found that rio and acme and mk and 8c ,etc., are > far less interesting than union directories, per-process namespaces, > 9p and intrinsic, ubiquitous distributed computing - that's where I > personally think the action is at. The I humbly submit that you may have Missed The Point. > > I don't care what editor or compiler someone uses; but the idea of cpu'ing > from a smartphone to run heavy-weight processes (for just one example) > gets the geek in me pretty excited with possibility. well, maybe you haven't :-) ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201105060008.05067.errno@cox.net> References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105060008.05067.errno@cox.net> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 09:11:58 +0200 Message-ID: From: ron minnich To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: de66cfac-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Look at the 2d tiling of "tabs" in abaco and tell me it's not pretty neat :-) In fact I way prefer abaco layout to every other browser I've used. ron From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 00:35:48 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.6 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References: <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201105060035.48782.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: de740d2a-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Friday, May 06, 2011 12:08:08 AM ron minnich wrote: > > After a few months of reading and learning and actual hands-on > > experience, I've found that rio and acme and mk and 8c ,etc., are > > far less interesting than union directories, per-process namespaces, > > 9p and intrinsic, ubiquitous distributed computing - that's where I > > personally think the action is at. > > The I humbly submit that you may have Missed The Point. > I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse - what is The Point that you're referring? > > I don't care what editor or compiler someone uses; but the idea of > > cpu'ing from a smartphone to run heavy-weight processes (for just one > > example) gets the geek in me pretty excited with possibility. > > well, maybe you haven't :-) > Now I'm really confused. Speak not in riddles, friend - explain what you mean! (: Please. (: From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 14:07:21 +0200 From: Lucio De Re To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <20110506120720.GB5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: de824fd4-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 11:45:27PM -0700, errno wrote: > > I'm tired of maintaining everyone's computers in my house on an ad-hoc > basis; and I think I could deploy a higher performing, more maintainable, > but overall cheaper network with Plan 9. But I can hardly expect visitors > and family to run acme and abaco. > To cut a long story short, you want your cake and eat it. Unfortunately, 99% of the population prefer to eat a pre-made cake and give up the ownership part. It is hardly Plan 9's fault that those who write poor software for the wrong environment can't be evangelised; as you point out, it doesn't even make sense. But you're stuck, aren't you? As soon as, say, a browser is developed for Plan 9 (assuming that someone could afford the resources), the standards will change and the browser will need major surgery. Who's going to invest in that? Basically, the mover and shakers are precisely the people who don't want Plan 9 (or anything like it) to be a success story. They are winning. ++L From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 08:59:25 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: <201105060008.05067.errno@cox.net> References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105060008.05067.errno@cox.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: de97bfb8-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > In other words, I think I can manage to eventually port small ad-hoc > stuff; and then slowly "bake" it closer and closer to something that > is more and more "9'ish". i hope that works for you. unfortunately, i think that process will be a lot like making a pig into a supermodel by starting with the lipstick. > > This is a research OS, not a Windows replacement. > > There's a reason to use it. You want a great desktop experience that > > is familiar, get an ipad. > > > > Aww... man. > > Do you not think it's possible or worthwhile to have a great(er) desktop > (or consumer-oriented embedded device) experience built atop Plan 9? i'm not 100% sure what the op ment. but one way one could read it is that plan 9 is for research, it doesn't need to be usable. i don't think that was the point, and i wouldn't sign up for that intpretation. the way i would read that is that since we value clean ideas and orthogonal design more than polish, you get a clean and malleable os, but you don't get this for free. it's not that easy to port stuff to plan 9, and it's hard to get folks interested in certain boil-the- oceans projects like building a full html 5 web browser. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 09:15:58 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <201104300116.47971.errno@cox.net> <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: dea2089c-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > Just compare ratrace to strace some time. Sometimes, if you get some > initial structure right, you can see 100:1 code shrinkage *and* a > pretty good result. phrasing! - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-Id: From: Bakul Shah To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--27983584 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 08:45:24 -0700 References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: deb184b6-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --Apple-Mail-1--27983584 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On May 6, 2011, at 12:08 AM, ron minnich wrote: > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, errno wrote: > >> After a few months of reading and learning and actual hands-on >> experience, I've found that rio and acme and mk and 8c ,etc., are >> far less interesting than union directories, per-process namespaces, >> 9p and intrinsic, ubiquitous distributed computing - that's where I >> personally think the action is at. > > The I humbly submit that you may have Missed The Point. The things errmo finds more interesting are indeed where there has been far more experimentation. Acme is great as a programmer's editor but I tend to think that it has reached an evolutionary dead end (how's that as flamebait?:-). Its model of type anywhere doesn't buy you much where the primary mode is reading (as opposed to writing or editing). Not everything requiring a UI fits comfortably in the acme/ rio model. Designing a good UI is just very hard and the challenges there IMHO don't benefit much from plan9's strong points. Well designed documents that use multiple fonts, graphical elements, white space, colors, pictures are far easier on one's eyes. It would be great if such pages can be viewed, and even better, created on plan9. HTML isn't just for browsers anymore! On the Mac there are some great apps for journal or blog writing etc that use the webkit (not everyone uses MS word or pages). In a way a good webkit can *vitalize* plan9. So more power to errno if he wants to do this! --Apple-Mail-1--27983584 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On May 6, 2011, at 12:08 AM, ron = minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> = wrote:

On = Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, errno <errno@cox.net> wrote:

After a = few months of reading and learning and actual = hands-on
experience, I've found that rio and acme and mk and = 8c ,etc., are
far = less interesting than union directories, per-process = namespaces,
9p = and intrinsic, ubiquitous distributed computing - that's where = I
personally = think the action is = at.

The I humbly submit = that you may have Missed The = Point.

The things errmo = finds more interesting are indeed where there has been far more = experimentation. Acme is great as a programmer's editor but I tend to = think that it has reached an evolutionary dead end (how's that as = flamebait?:-). Its model of type anywhere doesn't buy you much where the = primary mode is reading (as opposed to writing or editing). Not = everything requiring a UI fits comfortably in the acme/rio model. = Designing a good UI is just very hard and the challenges there IMHO = don't benefit much from plan9's strong = points.

Well designed documents that use = multiple fonts, graphical elements, white space, colors, pictures are = far easier on one's eyes. It would be great if such pages can be viewed, = and even better, created on plan9. HTML isn't just for browsers anymore! = On the Mac there are some great apps for journal or blog writing etc = that use the webkit (not everyone uses MS word or pages). In a way a good webkit can *vitalize* plan9. So = more power to errno if he wants to do this! =

= --Apple-Mail-1--27983584-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net>

Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 08:59:19 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Floren To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: deb7b87c-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Bakul Shah wrote: > Well designed documents that use multiple fonts, graphical elements, whit= e > space, colors, pictures are far easier on one's eyes. Yes, and then on the other hand, you have web pages. Oh, wait, you weren't talking about postscript documents? :-) > It would be great if > such pages can be viewed, and even better, created on plan9. HTML isn't j= ust > for browsers anymore! On the Mac there are some great apps for journal or > blog writing etc that use the webkit (not everyone uses MS word=A0or page= s). > In a way a good webkit can *vitalize* plan9. So more power to errno if he > wants to do this! Of course you can create documents using multiple fonts, graphical elements, white space, colors, pictures on Plan 9. I do it in troff from time to time. I also do it by writing HTML in a text editor (like Acme), which is also how pretty much all the real web developers (as opposed to dabblers in FrontPage) do it too (except they also use CSS and real programming language backends). The idea that you need a special application built around WEBKIT of all things (I just vomited in my shoes a little) just to write a blog is utterly ridiculous. Now, I'd love to see webkit ported, because I'd love to have a fully-featured web browser on Plan 9. However, call me cynical, but I'm a little concerned that we're seeing yet another repetition of that familiar pattern: New guy comes in, wants to be Plan 9 messiah by porting [gcc/web browser] or writing drivers, makes grandiose plans, everyone points out the flaws in said plans which came about from not understanding Plan 9 yet, new guy disappears. John From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 09:06:28 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References: <201105060008.05067.errno@cox.net> <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201105060906.28711.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: def0c0f4-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Friday, May 06, 2011 05:59:25 AM erik quanstrom wrote: > > In other words, I think I can manage to eventually port small ad-hoc > > stuff; and then slowly "bake" it closer and closer to something that > > is more and more "9'ish". > > i hope that works for you. unfortunately, i think that process > will be a lot like making a pig into a supermodel by starting with > the lipstick. > I'm certain you're right. But it's a concrete and approachable starting place for me, that corresponds well to my _current_ level of experience and ability with plan 9. I expect that after a certain point, I would ditch it and start fresh with the new insights and wisdom gained from the initial attempt. You may disagree with such an approach, but based from what I know of my own self, it's the approach that is most likely to eventually produce some measure of something-more-than-nothing. > > > This is a research OS, not a Windows replacement. > > > There's a reason to use it. You want a great desktop experience that > > > is familiar, get an ipad. > > > the way i would read that is that since we value clean ideas and > orthogonal design more than polish, you get a clean and malleable > os, but you don't get this for free. it's not that easy to port stuff > to plan 9, and it's hard to get folks interested in certain boil-the- > oceans projects like building a full html 5 web browser. > Acknowledged, and understood. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 09:07:07 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References: <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net> <20110506120720.GB5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> In-Reply-To: <20110506120720.GB5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <201105060907.07574.errno@cox.net> Subject: [9fans] freedom (was Re: Compiling 9atom kernel) Topicbox-Message-UUID: debeb1c2-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 I'm aware that 9fans doesn't usually take kindly to speculative fiction, conjecture, or speculation. Please forgive me, I'm writing with honest intentions. On Friday, May 06, 2011 05:07:21 AM Lucio De Re wrote: > On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 11:45:27PM -0700, errno wrote: > > I'm tired of maintaining everyone's computers in my house on an ad-hoc > > basis; and I think I could deploy a higher performing, more maintainabl= e, > > but overall cheaper network with Plan 9. But I can hardly expect visito= rs > > and family to run acme and abaco. >=20 > To cut a long story short, you want your cake and eat it. Unfortunately, > 99% of the population prefer to eat a pre-made cake and give up the > ownership part. It is hardly Plan 9's fault that those who write poor > software for the wrong environment can't be evangelised; as you point out, > it doesn't even make sense. >=20 > But you're stuck, aren't you? As soon as, say, a browser is developed for > Plan 9 (assuming that someone could afford the resources), the standards > will change and the browser will need major surgery. Who's going to > invest in that? Basically, the mover and shakers are precisely the > people who don't want Plan 9 (or anything like it) to be a success story. > They are winning. I concur, and I think this is a generally sound summary of the situation. A= nd highly astute, with regards to your comment concerning certain movers and shakers. Plan 9 has mind-numbing potential of being a bonafide "disruptive technology", if the cat ever got outta the bag. I'm convinced that the web = is the key.=20 html + css + javascript over http through ssl is able to adequately satisfy ~80% of the general public's computing needs and wants. (I pulled that=20 "80%" figure out of my ass, but I doubt I'm all too far from the mark) So, what to do? The Web: Reject it? (aka "go buy a tablet" ) Reproduce it? (aka "have you looked at webfs?" ) Reuse it? (aka "port webkit") There's no possible way that I'm the only one who has envisioned=20 some rendition of the following science-fiction: * a Plan 9-based platform targeted at the general consumer market * this platform offers html + css + javascript (aka "the web") as the primary front-end ui * said platform is purchased via a "turnkey" hardware package: a single preconfigured plan 9 cpu/auth/file server using commodity hardware, in the $2000-$4000 price range * said unit can comfortably support ~10 simultaneous users, each using super-cheap thin-clients at ~$200 dollars per unit * the idea is the consumer purchases the cpu/auth/file server unit and one or more thin client units; this is all any typical household needs * with purchase of said unit, customer receives option to pay $19.99 a month for a hosted Plan 9 VPS - customer's household cpu/auth/file server stays synchronized with this VPS, thereby facilitating ever-present remote access to personal computing environment * said platform is easily scaleable (obviously - it's plan 9) to support larger more demanding environments - such as businesses and=20 organizations - decouple the auth/cpu/file server and/or purchase higher-end servers=20 (monetary values pulled out of my ass - just throwing ballpark=20 guestimates to get the point across) I don't want google and facebook and flicker et. al. owning my data; I don't want to make intel and dell rich with their overpowered machines and processors so I can run ever-bloating os and software; I don't want to maintain a collection of various ad-hoc essentially autistic (please excuse the term) computers in my household. I want to be able to access my private, personal computing environment from anywhere with an internet connection via my portable thin client. I want to be able to easily share my data and resources within a trusted circle. I want all communications to innately and transparently run over an ssl encrypted channel at all times. A radically distributed internet where power and control is put back into=20 the hands of individuals. I'm tired of centralized gilded cages and hierarchical client server models formed and shaped mostly for the benefit= =20 of a few monolithic companies and an ever-encroaching federal government, and the ever-insidious "Intellectual Property" gestapo. =46rom where I stand, this is where Plan 9 belongs. This is what it ought t= o be doing, and where it ought to be going. I hope I have not offended anyone, please do not be too harsh on me if you disagree. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 18:11:31 +0200 From: tlaronde@polynum.com To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <20110506161131.GA3625@polynum.com> References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: df71bbb4-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 08:45:24AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: >[...] > Well designed documents that use multiple fonts, graphical elements, > white space, colors, pictures are far easier on one's eyes. It would > be great if such pages can be viewed, and even better, created on > plan9. HTML isn't just for browsers anymore! On the Mac there are some > great apps for journal or blog writing etc that use the webkit (not > everyone uses MS word or pages). In a way a good webkit can *vitalize* > plan9. So more power to errno if he wants to do this! > Well, there is a layout engine already. Able to combine texte and mathematical writing. It is called TeX... I sometimes wonder what could be obtain using this engine to produce a formatted text to insert/place as boxes on a representation mean: hard copy is one, soft copy (screen) is just another. All in all, that's what MetaPost does for the labels in drawing (can use troff(1) too). -- Thierry Laronde http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: <4DC421ED.50208@0x6a.com> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 11:29:33 -0500 From: Jack Norton User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> References: <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net> <20110506120720.GB5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105060907.07574.errno@cox.net> In-Reply-To: <201105060907.07574.errno@cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] freedom (was Re: Compiling 9atom kernel) Topicbox-Message-UUID: df7bc384-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 errno wrote: > So, what to do? > > The Web: > > Reject it? (aka "go buy a tablet" ) > > Reproduce it? (aka "have you looked at webfs?" ) > > Reuse it? (aka "port webkit") > > > There's no possible way that I'm the only one who has envisioned > some rendition of the following science-fiction: > > * a Plan 9-based platform targeted at the general consumer market > > ... * Stuff * .... > I don't want google and facebook and flicker et. al. owning my data; I > don't want to make intel and dell rich with their overpowered machines > and processors so I can run ever-bloating os and software; I don't want to > maintain a collection of various ad-hoc essentially autistic (please excuse > the term) computers in my household. I want to be able to access my > private, personal computing environment from anywhere with an internet > connection via my portable thin client. I want to be able to easily share > my data and resources within a trusted circle. I want all communications > to innately and transparently run over an ssl encrypted channel at all > times. > > A radically distributed internet where power and control is put back into > the hands of individuals. I'm tired of centralized gilded cages and > hierarchical client server models formed and shaped mostly for the benefit > of a few monolithic companies and an ever-encroaching federal government, > and the ever-insidious "Intellectual Property" gestapo. > > From where I stand, this is where Plan 9 belongs. This is what it ought to be > doing, and where it ought to be going. > > I hope I have not offended anyone, please do not be too harsh on me if > you disagree. > > > > You've got some misplaced idealism. Plan 9 isn't needed for any of this. In fact you could probably leverage some existing frameworks/api's and whatnot on a linux machine to do this in a matter of days for cheaper (hours even?). All you'd need is a dash of pragmatism. Remember your comment on how Acme/rio et al don't really interest you but 9p/per-process ns et al did? You can kinda do that in linux. If you want to create a product on that scale yourself, linux, for all its faults, will get you a time-to-market that isn't a pipe dream. You just have to leverage many unsightly 'technologies'. Plan 9 to me is a playground to have something clean and unencumbered by the world. There is a certain zen to saying "well I don't really think that is necessary" and to forgo a "hop on the bandwagon" or "me too!" existence. In the end though, the list will eventually say it: start hammering out some code and we'll see what you come up with. Proof in the pudding. Good luck, Jack From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-Id: <19A932FB-8073-441C-AF25-4E4FC1317A3E@bitblocks.com> From: Bakul Shah To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 09:47:49 -0700 References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net>

Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: df846354-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On May 6, 2011, at 8:59 AM, John Floren wrote: > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Bakul Shah > wrote: >> Well designed documents that use multiple fonts, graphical >> elements, white >> space, colors, pictures are far easier on one's eyes. > > Yes, and then on the other hand, you have web pages. Oh, wait, you > weren't talking about postscript documents? :-) > >> It would be great if >> such pages can be viewed, and even better, created on plan9. HTML >> isn't just >> for browsers anymore! On the Mac there are some great apps for >> journal or >> blog writing etc that use the webkit (not everyone uses MS word or >> pages). >> In a way a good webkit can *vitalize* plan9. So more power to errno >> if he >> wants to do this! > > Of course you can create documents using multiple fonts, graphical > elements, white space, colors, pictures on Plan 9. I do it in troff > from time to time. I also do it by writing HTML in a text editor (like > Acme), which is also how pretty much all the real web developers (as > opposed to dabblers in FrontPage) do it too (except they also use CSS > and real programming language backends). The idea that you need a > special application built around WEBKIT of all things (I just vomited > in my shoes a little) just to write a blog is utterly ridiculous. Postscript is fine for viewing but if you want editable pages it doesn't cut it. If you want to collaborate with non techies on other platform, troff, raw HTML or TeX is quite limiting. Apps such as journler could be created by one person because of the webkit. They are very easy to use and you don't have to be a "real web developer" to write. I don't particularly like HTML/XML but it has become ubiquitous as a portable format. At least with a good app I don't have to look at raw HTML (just as programming in a HLL means you don't have to look at the bletcherous x86 code 99.99% of time). > Now, I'd love to see webkit ported, because I'd love to have a > fully-featured web browser on Plan 9. However, call me cynical, but > I'm a little concerned that we're seeing yet another repetition of > that familiar pattern: New guy comes in, wants to be Plan 9 messiah by > porting [gcc/web browser] or writing drivers, makes grandiose plans, > everyone points out the flaws in said plans which came about from not > understanding Plan 9 yet, new guy disappears. There is that danger. 9 out of 10 (or may be even 99 out of 100) will disappear. It can get tiring but so what. We don't have to point out the flaws! Let them discover on their own & learn the hard way (the only way people learn). I prefer to encourage new people even knowing most of the time we won't benefit. Not to say you are wrong or I am right; just a different point of view to consider! From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: erik quanstrom Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 13:30:27 -0400 To: 9fans@9fans.net Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <201105060906.28711.errno@cox.net> References: <201105060008.05067.errno@cox.net> <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201105060906.28711.errno@cox.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: dfa53660-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > I'm certain you're right. But it's a concrete and approachable starting > place for me, that corresponds well to my _current_ level of experience > and ability with plan 9. I expect that after a certain point, I would ditch it > and start fresh with the new insights and wisdom gained from the initial > attempt. > > You may disagree with such an approach, but based from what I know > of my own self, it's the approach that is most likely to eventually produce > some measure of something-more-than-nothing. i don't disagree with that approach, i was just pointing out one its fundamental properties. - erik From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 10:38:03 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References: <201105060907.07574.errno@cox.net> <4DC421ED.50208@0x6a.com> In-Reply-To: <4DC421ED.50208@0x6a.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201105061038.03929.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] freedom (was Re: Compiling 9atom kernel) Topicbox-Message-UUID: dfba5158-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Friday, May 06, 2011 09:29:33 AM Jack Norton wrote: > You've got some misplaced idealism. > Yeah you're probably right. > In the end though, the list will eventually say it: start hammering out > some code and we'll see what you come up with. Proof in the pudding. > Truth. > errno wrote: > > From where I stand, this is where Plan 9 belongs. This is what it ought > > to be doing, and where it ought to be going. > And that comment was particularly lame - I'm in no position to assert what plan 9 "ought" to be doing. Sorry for that, got carried away. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105060008.05067.errno@cox.net> <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 18:32:26 -0400 Message-ID: From: Comeau At9Fans To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0021cc02280e7919b104a2a310ec Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: dfd6b942-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --0021cc02280e7919b104a2a310ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:59 AM, erik quanstrom wrote: > > Do you not think it's possible or worthwhile to have a great(er) desktop > > (or consumer-oriented embedded device) experience built atop Plan 9? > > i'm not 100% sure what the op ment. but one way one could > read it is that plan 9 is for research, it doesn't need to be usable. > i don't think that was the point, and i wouldn't sign up for that > intpretation. > > the way i would read that is that since we value clean ideas and > orthogonal design more than polish, you get a clean and malleable > os, but you don't get this for free. it's not that easy to port stuff > to plan 9, and it's hard to get folks interested in certain boil-the- > oceans projects like building a full html 5 web browser. > Let's say for argument's sake that errno pulls this off. Let's say he manages to get something like FireFox working on Plan 9. Let's say that the executable is fully functional (don't know if that's possible but let's assume it is). How does this change things literally, conceptually and philosophically? Consider this question across the board, for instance, can Plan 9 handle it (whatever that means)? How does it change Plan 9's future? What I'm getting at is that I'm hearing things about it being a research OS, so what would it mean for a research OS to have a full fledged browser available for it? -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it? --0021cc02280e7919b104a2a310ec Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:59 AM, erik quanstrom=A0<quanstro@quanstro.ne= t>=A0wrote:

> Do you not think it's possible or worthwhile to have a great(= er) desktop
> (or consumer-oriented embedded device) experience built= atop Plan 9?

i'm not 100% sure what the op ment. =A0but o= ne way one could
read it is that plan 9 is for research, it doesn't need to be usable.i don't think that was the point, and i wouldn't sign up for that=
intpretation.

the way i would read that is that since we value c= lean ideas and
orthogonal design more than polish, you get a clean and malleable
os, bu= t you don't get this for free. =A0it's not that easy to port stuff<= br>to plan 9, and it's hard to get folks interested in certain boil-the= -
oceans projects like building a full html 5 web browser.

=A0

Let's say for argument&= #39;s sake that errno pulls this off. =A0Let's say he manages to get so= mething like FireFox working on Plan 9. =A0Let's say that the executabl= e is fully functional (don't know if that's possible but let's = assume it is). =A0How does this change things literally, conceptually and p= hilosophically? =A0 Consider this question across the board, for instance, = can Plan 9 handle it (whatever that means)? =A0How does it change Plan 9= 9;s future? =A0What I'm getting at is that I'm hearing things about= it being a research OS, so what would it mean for a research OS to have a = full fledged browser available for it?

Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta!

Comeau C/C++ ONLINE =3D=3D> =A0 =A0 http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout

World Class Compilers: =A0Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.

Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
--0021cc02280e7919b104a2a310ec-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20110506042334.GA5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105060008.05067.errno@cox.net> <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 16:57:09 -0600 Message-ID: From: andrey mirtchovski To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: dfe34c8e-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > How does this change things literally, conceptually and > philosophically? If I can have plan9 as my daily desktop machine I'll be using a lot more of it, which means there'll be a few things that will annoy me and a few things that I can fix. I'll be able to dedicate more of my 'free time' towards plan9 and maybe write more programs for it, especially with an easier-to-write language like Go available. With more code written in plan9 I'd have more reason to have a server or two running it in the data centre, which may enable me to share some resources with other people running plan9. All of the above isn't wishful thinking, it actually happened several times in the past decade at different locations. plan9.ucalgary.ca was a great place to share resources for canadians and at one point ran the biggest plan9 cpu server (8-single-core cpus in 2003). Lots of people had free accounts on it to "try out stuff". Elsewhere, a server in Japan had amassed the largest collection of 9fans, similarly, other 9grid machines popped up in many places in Europe and the US. Unfortunately there are never enough people sticking with plan9 long enough. Eventually i couldn't stick with it either. I stopped actively coding for plan9 when it stopped being my default desktop in 2006-7. Now if I need something done in Plan9 there are quite a few capable replacements like 9vx and p9p, but I would go back to running native plan9 if I could because it's a much calmer place to work. Ironically, I wish to go back to plan9 because the internet is too distracting, yet I can't do it because there's no proper web browser for it :) cheers: andrey From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 16:18:39 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References: <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201105061618.39448.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: dfeca932-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Quick attempt at damage control, hope it's not too late: On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:32:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote: > [...] errno pulls this off. [...] something like FireFox working on Plan 9. > Let's say that the executable is fully functional > People may take it you literally mean: Firefox-on-Plan-9. nonono I tried real hard to avoid that misunderstanding. And, "fully functional" := css 2.1/3, ecmascript 3rd/5th (w/ dom), html 4.1/5, ssl/tls On Sunday, May 01, 2011 09:09:06 PM errno wrote: > (and, forget about the "browser" part of the "web" for now - I think > web _browsers_ suck worse than the web itself - I'm just concerned > with the web _engine_ for now) On Sunday, May 01, 2011 06:42:12 PM errno wrote: > With regards to "web browsers" - the over-generalized kitchen-sync > applications that supply the cookie management and password > storing, and bookmarks, and cert management, and home pages, > and back/forward buttons and all that shtuff - a decent web engine > library would facilitate any number and any manner of unique and > specialized front-ends. The engine is the important part, the > actual front-ends are expected to just... materialize. On Friday, April 29, 2011 09:05:39 PM errno wrote: > (by "web experience", I'm not talking about porting firefox and flash to > Plan 9 - I'm talking about native or ported libraries for what wikipedia > refers to as a "web browser engine" or "layout engine"; and by "fully > functional", I'm talking about something that can score at least an 80% > or so on the acid2 test.) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 16:47:36 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References: <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201105061647.36343.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: dff886e4-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:32:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote: > How does this change things literally, conceptually and philosophically? > Consider this question across the board, for instance, can Plan 9 handle > it (whatever that means)? How does it change Plan 9's future? What I'm > getting at is that I'm hearing things about it being a research OS, so what > would it mean for a research OS to have a full fledged browser available > for it? > A veneer of html + css + javascript over the intrinsically distributed foundations of Plan 9, would provide the bridge for an entire class of use-cases currently out of reach: When friends and family can comfortably use it, for activities other than data-archival, then I can deploy it for uses beyond my own limited, personal learning projects. The benefit I intend to receive for this is the freedom to enjoy Plan 9 more often, while reducing linux dependency, and reducing overall costs: both in hardware requirements, and in maintenance time/effort. On Sunday, May 01, 2011 09:09:06 PM errno wrote: > The idea is to remove the "middle-man". On Friday, May 06, 2011 12:08:04 AM errno wrote: > Do you not think it's possible or worthwhile to have a great(er) desktop > (or consumer-oriented embedded device) experience built atop Plan 9? > > Or the idea of a home network where I have one cpu/auth server, one file > server and a number of super cheap thin-clients providing a modern > web interface and shared data for friends, guests and family. > > I'm tired of maintaining everyone's computers in my house on an ad-hoc > basis; and I think I could deploy a higher performing, more maintainable, > but overall cheaper network with Plan 9. But I can hardly expect visitors > and family to run acme and abaco. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201105061618.39448.errno@cox.net> References: <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201105061618.39448.errno@cox.net> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 19:49:29 -0400 Message-ID: From: Comeau At9Fans To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b7c1202b40a04a2a42495 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e001c60a-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --0016363b7c1202b40a04a2a42495 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:18 PM, errno wrote: > > Quick attempt at damage control, hope it's not too late: > > On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:32:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote: > > [...] errno pulls this off. [...] something like FireFox working on Plan > 9. > > Let's say that the executable is fully functional > > > > People may take it you literally mean: Firefox-on-Plan-9. nonono I tried > real hard to avoid that misunderstanding. > Yes, sorry about that. I did not mean to imply it literally, just took it to the next step so to speak.... -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it? --0016363b7c1202b40a04a2a42495 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:18 PM, errno <errno@cox.net> wrote:

Quick attempt at damage control, hope it's not too late:

On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:32:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote:
> [...] errno pulls this off. [...] something like FireFox working on Pl= an 9.

> Let's say that the executable is fully functiona= l
>

People may take it you literally mean: Firefox-on-Plan-9. =A0nonono I= tried
real hard to avoid that misunderstanding.

Yes, sorry about that. =A0 I did not mean to imply it literally, just to= ok it to the next step so to speak....

Greg Come= au / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta!

Comeau C/C++ ONLINE =3D=3D> =A0 =A0 http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryit= out

World Class Compilers: =A0Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, = Fabulous C90.

Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
--0016363b7c1202b40a04a2a42495-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201105061647.36343.errno@cox.net> References: <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201105061647.36343.errno@cox.net> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 19:56:26 -0400 Message-ID: From: Comeau At9Fans To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151757714adc2a4504a2a43c38 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e008d6e8-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --00151757714adc2a4504a2a43c38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:47 PM, errno wrote: > On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:32:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote: > > How does this change things literally, conceptually and philosophically? > > Consider this question across the board, for instance, can Plan 9 handle > > it (whatever that means)? How does it change Plan 9's future? What I'm > > getting at is that I'm hearing things about it being a research OS, so > what > > would it mean for a research OS to have a full fledged browser available > > for it? > > > > A veneer of html + css + javascript over the intrinsically distributed > foundations of Plan 9, would provide the bridge for an entire class of > use-cases currently out of reach: > > When friends and family can comfortably use it, for activities other than > data-archival, then I can deploy it for uses beyond my own limited, > personal > learning projects. The benefit I intend to receive for this is the freedom > to > enjoy Plan 9 more often, while reducing linux dependency, and reducing > overall costs: both in hardware requirements, and in maintenance > time/effort. > ... > How and/or why do you feel it would reduce the hardware requirements of friends and family? And especially so versus linux? -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it? --00151757714adc2a4504a2a43c38 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:47 PM, errno <errno@cox.net> wrote:

On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:32:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote:=

> How does this change things literally, concept= ually and philosophically?
> Consider this question across the board, for instance, can Plan 9 hand= le
> it (whatever that means)? =A0How does it change Plan 9's future? = =A0What I'm
> getting at is that I'm hearing things about it being a research OS= , so what
> would it mean for a research OS to have a full fledged browser availab= le
> for it?
>

A veneer of html + css + javascript over the intrinsically distribute= d
foundations of Plan 9, would provide the bridge for an entire class of
use-cases currently out of reach:

When friends and family can comfortably use it, for activities other than data-archival, then I can deploy it for uses beyond my own limited, persona= l
learning projects. The benefit I intend to receive for this is the freedom = to
enjoy Plan 9 more often, while reducing linux dependency, and reducing
overall costs: both in hardware requirements, and in maintenance time/effor= t.

...

How and/or = why do you feel it would reduce the hardware requirements of friends and fa= mily? =A0 And especially so versus linux?

=A0

--
<= div> Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta!

Comeau C/C++ O= NLINE =3D=3D> =A0 =A0 http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout

W= orld Class Compilers: =A0Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.

Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
--00151757714adc2a4504a2a43c38-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 17:06:05 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References: <20110506120720.GB5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105060907.07574.errno@cox.net> In-Reply-To: <201105060907.07574.errno@cox.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201105061706.05179.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] freedom (was Re: Compiling 9atom kernel) Topicbox-Message-UUID: e01563f4-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Friday, May 06, 2011 09:07:07 AM errno wrote: > * said unit can comfortably support ~10 simultaneous users, each using > super-cheap thin-clients at ~$200 dollars per unit > Make that ~$25 dollars per unit: On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:15:46 PM Gorka Guardiola wrote: > http://www.raspberrypi.org/ Well, it seems to lack ethernet/wifi; so, maybe more like ~$55. :) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-Id: <2863EB61-78FF-4E15-B30B-F94A28613663@orthanc.ca> From: Lyndon Nerenberg To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <201105061647.36343.errno@cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPod Mail 7E18) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 17:12:02 -0700 References: <44c5b39f47469ed34fefaf5f4f6f7c2e@brasstown.quanstro.net> <201105061647.36343.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e01cfc40-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > A veneer of html + css + javascript over the intrinsically distributed > foundations of Plan 9, would provide the bridge for an entire class of > use-cases currently out of reach: Speaking in platitudes doesn't make a case. How specifically would this tie in to 9p? How specifically does it fit into namespaces? Show us some code fragments. Write some simple file servers to stub out this veneer you describe. In the process of doing this you will learn a lot about plan 9. And as a side effect, you will come to understand why nobody else has gone down this road. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 17:22:02 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References: <201105061647.36343.errno@cox.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201105061722.02629.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e038f2b0-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Friday, May 06, 2011 04:56:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote: > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:47 PM, errno wrote: > > When friends and family can comfortably use it, for activities other > > than data-archival, then I can deploy it for uses beyond my own limited, > > personal learning projects. The benefit I intend to receive for this is the > > freedom to enjoy Plan 9 more often, while reducing linux dependency, > > and reducing overall costs: both in hardware requirements, and in > > maintenance time/effort. > > How and/or why do you feel it would reduce the hardware requirements of > friends and family? And especially so versus linux? > The same way a linux terminal server w/ linux thin-clients would reduce hardware requirements. "So why not just use a linux terminal server then?" Because linux lacks the inherent distributed qualities of Plan 9. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: errno To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 17:43:39 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/2.6.38-ARCH; KDE/4.6.2; i686; ; ) References: <201105061647.36343.errno@cox.net> <2863EB61-78FF-4E15-B30B-F94A28613663@orthanc.ca> In-Reply-To: <2863EB61-78FF-4E15-B30B-F94A28613663@orthanc.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201105061743.39913.errno@cox.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e03f716c-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Friday, May 06, 2011 05:12:02 PM Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > > A veneer of html + css + javascript over the intrinsically distributed > > foundations of Plan 9, would provide the bridge for an entire class of > > > use-cases currently out of reach: > Speaking in platitudes doesn't make a case. How specifically would > this tie in to 9p? How specifically does it fit into namespaces? > Huh? ... the same way webfs does? 9p and namespaces is exactly what allows me to transparently access the cpu/auth/file server from my thin client from which to springboard my operating environment from any location, and how I'm able to the processor on the cpu server, and how I'm able to arrange multiple discrete environments from ad-hoc resources. That shit's intrinsic and seamless to the plan 9 experience; I don't understand how it's not immediately obvious how 9p and namespaces tie in and fit into the whole idea. Right? I hope I'm not still missing The Point, 'cuz that would be really embarrassing by this juncture. :) > Show us some code fragments. Write some simple file servers to stub out > this veneer you describe. > > In the process of doing this you will learn a lot about plan 9. And as > a side effect, you will come to understand why nobody else has gone > down this road. > I have no disagreement. I don't mind responding as long as people are directing comments and questions at me though; should I announce that I hereby extract myself from any further discussion? I don't mind doing that either, if it means reducing annoyance levels from the list members. I don't want make a continued annoyance of myself; it's true that I've got plenty to cognate and work on. Thankyou From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 07:01:14 +0200 From: Lucio De Re To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <20110507050114.GC5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> References: <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net> <20110506120720.GB5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105060907.07574.errno@cox.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201105060907.07574.errno@cox.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: [9fans] freedom (was Re: Compiling 9atom kernel) Topicbox-Message-UUID: e0ab7cb8-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 09:07:07AM -0700, errno wrote: > > But you're stuck, aren't you? As soon as, say, a browser is developed for > > Plan 9 (assuming that someone could afford the resources), the standards > > will change and the browser will need major surgery. Who's going to > > invest in that? Basically, the mover and shakers are precisely the > > people who don't want Plan 9 (or anything like it) to be a success story. > > They are winning. > > I concur, and I think this is a generally sound summary of the situation. And > highly astute, with regards to your comment concerning certain movers and > shakers. Plan 9 has mind-numbing potential of being a bonafide "disruptive > technology", if the cat ever got outta the bag. I'm convinced that the web is > the key. > Thank you for the complement and, for that matter, giving me the opportunity to think that possibility through in the first place. Not that I think it's a conspiracy theory thing, as much as the "movers and shakers" know what they want and make sure that the public looks nowhere else. I long ago decided that Microsoft Windows was a religious institution, if not a religion and I think more players (Steve Jobs and my friend Mark Shuttleworth, plus a few hardware suppliers) have also, intentionally or unwittingly, gotten into the game. > html + css + javascript over http through ssl is able to adequately satisfy > ~80% of the general public's computing needs and wants. (I pulled that > "80%" figure out of my ass, but I doubt I'm all too far from the mark) > > So, what to do? > Look outside the box? Preach a different Gospel? Wait for the Chinese to provide a new perspective? More than anything else, we need to eradicate the belief that a single device needs to be the tool of choice for all possible uses. We use mobile phones as cameras, computers as hi-fi systems, heaven only knows how soon we'll be using the microwave oven doors as visual panels to monitor the house heating arrangements. > The Web: > > Reject it? (aka "go buy a tablet" ) > I would think that a hardware device like the tablets (has anybody conclusively established why something MS could not successfully market has found such a ready audience when supplied by Apple? Is it the UI as one might conclude from an earlier post?). > Reproduce it? (aka "have you looked at webfs?" ) > I think the web is overrated, and that it requires the type of re-analysis that Plan 9 would force upon it: treat it as a Unix directory hierarchy (in other words, redesign HTTP as a 9P "application"), separate HTML rendering from the transport and the Hypertext character of the documents (they are orthogonal and accidentally, incorrectly, tightly coupled), use ASN.1 rather than XML as the data representation and scrap the inanity of CSS or at minimum come up with a useful standard that does not include the (fake) ability of users to edit it as text (this results in damage instead of repairs). > Reuse it? (aka "port webkit") > No, it is broken beyond repair, it will infect Plan 9. > > There's no possible way that I'm the only one who has envisioned > some rendition of the following science-fiction: > > * a Plan 9-based platform targeted at the general consumer market > Build a hardware device, make it just a web renderer. Build it in huge quantities and make sure everyone has one: in each car seat, in aeroplanes, in the microwave door, in the outside door to the house, in the garage door, at each bus stop, at traffic lights, you name it... Freeze the standard or slow down its cancerous growth to a practical, human manageable speed. > * this platform offers html + css + javascript (aka "the web") as the > primary front-end ui > And a keyboard or better. I need some time to address the rest of your posting. ++L From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) From: Daniel Lyons In-Reply-To: <20110507050114.GC5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 01:36:23 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2BD94E63-BD1D-4072-8799-B4107411407D@storytotell.org> References: <201105052345.27828.errno@cox.net> <20110506120720.GB5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> <201105060907.07574.errno@cox.net> <20110507050114.GC5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] freedom (was Re: Compiling 9atom kernel) Topicbox-Message-UUID: e0b61240-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On May 6, 2011, at 11:01 PM, Lucio De Re wrote: > has anybody > conclusively established why something MS could not successfully = market > has found such a ready audience when supplied by Apple? Is it the UI > as one might conclude from an earlier post? The stylus, maybe? http://www.tuaw.com/files/stevesings.mp3 My pet theory is that it's the same reason people don't buy paper = tablets that weigh 5+ lbs and have with built-in typewriters. Of course, = you can't discount the possibility that there's a difference between a = car and a horseless carriage. =97=20 Daniel Lyons From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 20:27:53 +0200 From: tlaronde@polynum.com To: comeau@comeaucomputing.com, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e1222c64-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 09:54:28AM +0000, Greg Comeau wrote: >=20 > Some more food for thought: >=20 > "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. > Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, > definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian Kernighan >=20 With a caveat: when one is really clever, one finds "the shortest path to the truth" i.e. the simplicity; this means that really clever guys make programs easy to debug because these are the simplest ones doing the job. In Brian Kernighan's sentence, s/cleverly/sophisticatedly/ (this is probably a barbarism, but in french "sophistiqu=E9" is pejorative: obfuscation, convoluted etc.). --=20 Thierry Laronde http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint =3D 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 22:51:07 +0200 Message-ID: From: Mathieu Lonjaret To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e12a0768-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > In Brian Kernighan's sentence, s/cleverly/sophisticatedly/ (this is > probably a barbarism, but in french "sophistiqu=C3=A9" is pejorative: > obfuscation, convoluted etc.). Sorry, but it's not. it just means complex, and is not usually employed to make any value judgment. Just look it up in any dictionary. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 17:34:22 -0400 Message-ID: From: Comeau At9Fans To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151757714a77e82e04a2ca7c2c Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e13b1f76-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --00151757714a77e82e04a2ca7c2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 2:27 PM, wrote: > On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 09:54:28AM +0000, Greg Comeau wrote: > > > > Some more food for thought: > > > > "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. > > Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, > > definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian Kernighan > > > > With a caveat: when one is really clever, one finds "the shortest path > to the truth" i.e. the simplicity; this means that really clever guys > make programs easy to debug because these are the simplest ones doing > the job. > > In Brian Kernighan's sentence, s/cleverly/sophisticatedly/ (this is > probably a barbarism, but in french "sophistiqu=E9" is pejorative: > obfuscation, convoluted etc.). I think one can usually read things into such phrases, sometimes validly sometime invalidly. I also think it is often easy to disprove such phrases= , and so to instead to often just try to find the spirit of the phrase even i= f it is found to be problematic. For instance, easy to debug could mean the program is so riddled with problems just opening to a random part of it wil= l yield a problem with little effort it could also mean to the contrary that it was written so well that any bugs could be easy to find, but equally on the contrary the program could be such a bleeping mess that even though bug riddled getting through the logic etc could be tormenting at best while at the same time a clean program with few bugs can sometimes make finding "the long bug" harder because it is the lone last one. In the end there is often no pure bug cause or pure bug resolution mechanism but something in the middle that is contextual. All IMO. --=20 Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE =3D=3D> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it? --00151757714a77e82e04a2ca7c2c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 2:27 PM, <tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote:

On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 09:54:28AM +0000, Greg Comeau wro= te:
>
> Some more food for thought:
>
> "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first plac= e.
> =A0Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,<= br> > =A0 definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian Kernighan<= br> >

With a caveat: when one is really clever, one finds "the shortes= t path
to the truth" i.e. the simplicity; this means that really clever guys<= br> make programs easy to debug because these are the simplest ones doing
the job.

In Brian Kernighan's sentence, s/cleverly/sophisticatedly/ (this is
probably a barbarism, but in french "sophistiqu=E9" is pejorative= :
obfuscation, convoluted etc.).

I think one = can usually read things into such phrases, sometimes validly sometime inval= idly. =A0I also think it is often easy to disprove such phrases, and so to = instead to often just try to find the spirit of the phrase even if it is fo= und to be problematic. =A0For instance, easy to debug could mean the progra= m is so riddled with problems just opening to a random part of it will yiel= d a problem with little effort it could also mean to the contrary that it w= as written so well that any bugs could be easy to find, but equally on the = contrary the program could be such a bleeping mess that even though bug rid= dled getting through the logic etc could be tormenting at best while at the= same time a clean program with few bugs can sometimes make finding "t= he long bug" harder because it is the lone last one. =A0 In the end th= ere is often no pure bug cause or pure bug resolution mechanism but somethi= ng in the middle that is contextual. =A0All IMO.

Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta!

Comeau C/C++ ONLINE =3D=3D> =A0 =A0 http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tr= yitout

World Class Compilers: =A0Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.=

Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried i= t?

--00151757714a77e82e04a2ca7c2c-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 06:53:50 +0200 From: Lucio De Re To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <20110509045350.GD5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e141e202-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Sun, May 08, 2011 at 08:27:53PM +0200, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote: >=20 > (this is > probably a barbarism, but in french "sophistiqu=E9" is pejorative: > obfuscation, convoluted etc.). In Italian in 1969, "sofisticato" meant "adulterated". I'm not sure if that is still the case. I think I see what you mean. But as for "clever", there are shades of meaning there, there's a clever beyond clever that is what you suggest would discover simplicity. Arguing around subtleties in different languages is sophistic at best. ++L From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 18:54:38 +0200 From: tlaronde@polynum.com To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e1487ebe-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Sun, May 08, 2011 at 10:51:07PM +0200, Mathieu Lonjaret wrote: > > In Brian Kernighan's sentence, s/cleverly/sophisticatedly/ (this is > > probably a barbarism, but in french "sophistiqu=E9" is pejorative: > > obfuscation, convoluted etc.). >=20 > Sorry, but it's not. it just means complex, and is not usually > employed to make any value judgment. > Just look it up in any dictionary. Just look for the origin: the verb is "sophistiquer"... The usage and the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since "sophistiqu=E9" (now used non pejoratively) is the past participle of "sophistiquer" that is definitively pejorative. (Look for "sophistiquement" too; all this comes from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)... --=20 Thierry Laronde http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint =3D 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wes Kussmaul To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-dhGbHbxGYmAZBdYxvLJ6" Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 13:10:10 -0400 Message-ID: <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e14e9f74-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --=-dhGbHbxGYmAZBdYxvLJ6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 18:54 +0200, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote: > Just look for the origin: the verb is "sophistiquer"... The usage and > the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since "sophistiqu=C3=A9" (now used = non > pejoratively) is the past participle of "sophistiquer" that is > definitively pejorative. (Look for "sophistiquement" too; all this come= s > from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)... This is where semantics encounters the "everybody's somebody's fool" principle. I hang out with people who pay $20+++ for a liter of spoiled grape juice. The more they pay the more their peers regard them as being sophisticated. People outside that culture would see that very same use of the term "sophisticated" as a pejorative. Sophistication is in the eye of the beholder. --=-dhGbHbxGYmAZBdYxvLJ6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 18:54 +0200, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote:

Just look for the origin: the verb is "sophistiquer"... The usage and
the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since "sophistiqué" (now used non
pejoratively) is the past participle of "sophistiquer" that is
definitively pejorative. (Look for "sophistiquement" too; all this comes
from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)...

This is where semantics encounters the "everybody's somebody's fool" principle. I hang out with people who pay $20+++ for a liter of spoiled grape juice. The more they pay the more their peers regard them as being sophisticated. People outside that culture would see that very same use of the term "sophisticated" as a pejorative. Sophistication is in the eye of the beholder. --=-dhGbHbxGYmAZBdYxvLJ6-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 10:34:14 +0200 Message-ID: From: hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e218e19e-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck! On 5/9/11, Wes Kussmaul wrote: > On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 18:54 +0200, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote: > > >> Just look for the origin: the verb is "sophistiquer"... The usage and >> the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since "sophistiqu=C3=A9" (now used n= on >> pejoratively) is the past participle of "sophistiquer" that is >> definitively pejorative. (Look for "sophistiquement" too; all this comes >> from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)... > > > This is where semantics encounters the "everybody's somebody's fool" > principle. I hang out with people who pay $20+++ for a liter of spoiled > grape juice. The more they pay the more their peers regard them as being > sophisticated. People outside that culture would see that very same use > of the term "sophisticated" as a pejorative. Sophistication is in the > eye of the beholder. > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 06:27:33 -0600 Message-ID: From: andrey mirtchovski To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e2fec362-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > 20$ for a juice? most likely fermented. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) From: Daniel Lyons In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 07:47:26 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <64583FD0-497A-43A0-95EE-F47978009CC3@storytotell.org> References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e2470420-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On May 10, 2011, at 2:34 AM, hiro wrote: > 20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these > days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck! He's talking about wine. =97=20 Daniel Lyons From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wes Kussmaul To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-OoMjiU8qvNFwQgP+O70R" Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 13:56:03 -0400 Message-ID: <1305050163.2073.15.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e2819086-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --=-OoMjiU8qvNFwQgP+O70R Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2011-05-10 at 10:34 +0200, hiro wrote: > 20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these > days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck! It's very special juice - made special by the way it's allowed to spoil.=20 You know, fine old oak barrels watched over by a dude who knows how to utter the word "tannins" with just the right nasality and who knows how to deflect questions about blind tasting without seeming evasive. There is much skill in that; such skill is not cheap. >=20 > On 5/9/11, Wes Kussmaul wrote: > > On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 18:54 +0200, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote: > > > > > >> Just look for the origin: the verb is "sophistiquer"... The usage an= d > >> the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since "sophistiqu=C3=A9" (now us= ed non > >> pejoratively) is the past participle of "sophistiquer" that is > >> definitively pejorative. (Look for "sophistiquement" too; all this c= omes > >> from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)... > > > > > > This is where semantics encounters the "everybody's somebody's fool" > > principle. I hang out with people who pay $20+++ for a liter of spoil= ed > > grape juice. The more they pay the more their peers regard them as be= ing > > sophisticated. People outside that culture would see that very same u= se > > of the term "sophisticated" as a pejorative. Sophistication is in the > > eye of the beholder. > > >=20 --=-OoMjiU8qvNFwQgP+O70R Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2011-05-10 at 10:34 +0200, hiro wrote:

20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these
days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck!

It's very special juice - made special by the way it's allowed to spoil.

You know, fine old oak barrels watched over by a dude who knows how to utter the word "tannins" with just the right nasality and who knows how to deflect questions about blind tasting without seeming evasive. There is much skill in that; such skill is not cheap.


On 5/9/11, Wes Kussmaul <wes@authentrus.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 18:54 +0200, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote:
>
>
>> Just look for the origin: the verb is "sophistiquer"... The usage and
>> the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since "sophistiqué" (now used non
>> pejoratively) is the past participle of "sophistiquer" that is
>> definitively pejorative. (Look for "sophistiquement" too; all this comes
>> from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)...
>
>
> This is where semantics encounters the "everybody's somebody's fool"
> principle. I hang out with people who pay $20+++ for a liter of spoiled
> grape juice. The more they pay the more their peers regard them as being
> sophisticated. People outside that culture would see that very same use
> of the term "sophisticated" as a pejorative. Sophistication is in the
> eye of the beholder.
>

--=-OoMjiU8qvNFwQgP+O70R-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 14:47:44 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Floren To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e2673010-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 He's talking about wine (spoiled grape juice), in a discussion which continues to go further afield with each passing message :) John On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 1:34 AM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote: > 20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these > days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck! > > On 5/9/11, Wes Kussmaul wrote: >> On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 18:54 +0200, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote: >> >> >>> Just look for the origin: the verb is "sophistiquer"... The usage and >>> the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since "sophistiqu=E9" (now used non >>> pejoratively) is the past participle of "sophistiquer" that is >>> definitively pejorative. (Look for "sophistiquement" too; all this come= s >>> from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)... >> >> >> This is where semantics encounters the "everybody's somebody's fool" >> principle. I hang out with people who pay $20+++ for a liter of spoiled >> grape juice. The more they pay the more their peers regard them as being >> sophisticated. People outside that culture would see that very same use >> of the term "sophisticated" as a pejorative. Sophistication is in the >> eye of the beholder. >> > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wes Kussmaul To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <64583FD0-497A-43A0-95EE-F47978009CC3@storytotell.org> References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> <64583FD0-497A-43A0-95EE-F47978009CC3@storytotell.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-HjlYV7sI4XaI+y1FOZBm" Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 14:40:55 -0400 Message-ID: <1305225655.1983.113.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e26d1cbe-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --=-HjlYV7sI4XaI+y1FOZBm Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tried to clarify that but my reply never appeared.=20 On Tue, 2011-05-10 at 07:47 -0600, Daniel Lyons wrote: > On May 10, 2011, at 2:34 AM, hiro wrote: >=20 > > 20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these > > days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck! >=20 > He's talking about wine. >=20 > =E2=80=94=20 > Daniel Lyons >=20 >=20 --=-HjlYV7sI4XaI+y1FOZBm Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried to clarify that but my reply never appeared.

On Tue, 2011-05-10 at 07:47 -0600, Daniel Lyons wrote:

On May 10, 2011, at 2:34 AM, hiro wrote:

> 20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these
> days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck!

He's talking about wine.

—
Daniel Lyons

--=-HjlYV7sI4XaI+y1FOZBm-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1305050163.2073.15.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> <1305050163.2073.15.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 00:22:22 +0200 Message-ID: From: hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e2dc0ea8-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Heh, I should have noticed. My thoughts were a lot more scary:) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 01:40:37 -0700 Message-ID: From: Akshat Kumar To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e3277faa-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 http://www.schubart.net/archives/2004/01/31/worlds-most-expensive-apple-juice Go a tad less and you can get the unfermented kind - though not grape. On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 5:27 AM, andrey mirtchovski wrote: >> 20$ for a juice? > > most likely fermented. > > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop>

Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 10:14:12 +0000 Message-ID: From: hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e331d2b6-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Yeah, that's what I was thinking about :D From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wes Kussmaul To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: References: <129E2E01-3583-4E27-B520-252A956F59FC@corpus-callosum.com> <20110508182753.GA18603@polynum.com> <20110509165438.GA542@polynum.com> <1304961010.1825.196.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop>

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-PkQfnoFJG0IovGv8J6uT" Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 09:30:43 -0400 Message-ID: <1305293443.1983.118.camel@Wes-Toshiba-Laptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames Topicbox-Message-UUID: e33aa508-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --=-PkQfnoFJG0IovGv8J6uT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm really sorry I started this. On Fri, 2011-05-13 at 01:40 -0700, Akshat Kumar wrote: > http://www.schubart.net/archives/2004/01/31/worlds-most-expensive-apple-juice > > Go a tad less and you can get > the unfermented kind - though > not grape. > > On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 5:27 AM, andrey mirtchovski > wrote: > >> 20$ for a juice? > > > > most likely fermented. > > > > > --=-PkQfnoFJG0IovGv8J6uT Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm really sorry I started this.

On Fri, 2011-05-13 at 01:40 -0700, Akshat Kumar wrote:

http://www.schubart.net/archives/2004/01/31/worlds-most-expensive-apple-juice

Go a tad less and you can get
the unfermented kind - though
not grape.

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 5:27 AM, andrey mirtchovski
<mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 20$ for a juice?
>
> most likely fermented.
>
>

--=-PkQfnoFJG0IovGv8J6uT-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Message-ID: From: "Steve Simon" Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 16:02:45 +0100 To: lucio@proxima.alt.za, 9fans@9fans.net In-Reply-To: <20110507050114.GC5763@fangle.proxima.alt.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable Subject: Re: [9fans] freedom (was Re: Compiling 9atom kernel) Topicbox-Message-UUID: e472d670-ead6-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 Plan9 is my primary desktop and has been for years. I use vnc onto a windows box to browse the web, it annoys me but I live with it. I think I have said this before but in case I missed anyone my preferred solution wold be to build firefox / or dillo or the like on linux, with a= backend library for plany /dev/draw /dev/mouse /dev/kbd access.=20 This library is built on linux, compiled under gcc, it just happens to ac= cess devices that only exist when it is run under linuxemu. This would mean we get the advantage of not having to maintain a port of = firefox, we just use the latest linux binary but run it with a plan9-specific back= end shared library. This would also have the advantage thet firefox would work as a first cla= ss citizen on plan9, saving files would save them to directories on plan9, we could = even support some small tweeks like $home/lib/firefox/ rather than $home/.firefox/. Over time we could even replace some bits of glibc, e.g. gethostbyname() = to use /net/dns rather than implementing its own resolver etc; This is bits of t= he APE library compiled on linux. Wy 2=C2=A2 worth, and no I don't have the time, I'm just dreaming -Steve