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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="k@pixelheresy.com"; helo=mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de; client-ip=5.45.100.188 Received: from mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de [5.45.100.188]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 06:38:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from k@pixelheresy.com) Received: from [192.168.8.106] (212-17-162-67.amt.ax [212.17.162.67]) by mail.v220210179111140164.quicksrv.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E21AE8253F for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 12:38:51 +0200 (CEST) From: Keith Gibbs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Subject: Re: [9fans] Software philosophy Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 13:38:50 +0300 References: <16293151820.7F7690f.28382@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <3cdfcd26-b11d-4140-a9fb-cae0304e6ca2@sirjofri.de> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <96E7A10B-A27D-4E81-B2CC-95013DD64A61@pixelheresy.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: a9509a1c-00d9-11ec-a545-b57499fbb6d2 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UOWVmNjQzMGYzMDI1ZTczMS1NNWVhNmViYmFjNDEzMmZlMTBmMWRk?= =?UTF-8?B?ZjZjPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M5ea6ebbac4132fe10f1ddf6c:1:PQaawddqeKwOlQXWiED4L1Q2419sDm3qAK69MwgDQ7A >> 3) the p9f website promotes links to the Plan 9 archive software (V1-V4), >> 9legacy as "Plan 9 with many useful patches", the RPi version and other >> Plan 9 resources. 9front is _never_ mentioned at all. It seems like they >> don't consider 9front as a Plan 9 system at all. >>=20 > That is true and only P9F can address that issue. Which does rather > throw a spanner in Keith's complaints about me, because his claim is > that P9F want to assimilate and dominate 9front, based on a very thin > claim from me that I would be happier in a 1P9 universe. But let's not > ad hominem unnecessarily. Oh Lucio=E2=80=A6 I didn=E2=80=99t say that. You are either skimming to mak= e arguments against what you *think* I said, or just being disingenuous to = muddle my position.=20 I didn=E2=80=99t say P9F was planning on it. You suggested it in your origi= nal response to Demitrius. I joked about blessing 9front as official, to po= int out how divisive and absurd it would be for a non-elected governing bod= y to impose anything on an Open Source community and *then* pointed out how= the P9F=E2=80=99s mission materials is about promoting and not regulating.= =20 I never said the P9F specifically wanted to reign in 9front as a recalcitra= nt child, rather that some community members here [you included, but a few = other vocal ones] seem insistent that =E2=80=9Cgood=E2=80=9D features and f= ixes in 9front be demanded as patches from 9front devs to a project they do= not participate in. Cinap and others have in fact made patches this here a= nd there, but the idea the tribute is demanded for audience is absurd. Much= like your motorcycle metaphor, there are ways to build in consistency and = compatibility besides appeals to authority. > What seems to be harped upon by the vocal defenders of 9front, > however, is this fictional idea that there is another community, let's > call them "9legacy", that is attempting to subvert 9front's efforts to > gain some kind of recognition in the bigger picture. I know no one > whose preference, like mine, is to stick closer to the 9legacy release > of Plan 9, who in some way wants to reduce the value of 9front. Just > as OP points out, cooperation between David and Cinap and colleagues > has been cordial, if occasionally confrontational, for many, many > years. So Hiro and Kurt and others can be scratchy and no doubt so can > I, I don't think any of us have done any permanent damage to the 9fans > or the narrower 9front community. I think this may be a bit of a straw man argument, at least in terms of mys= elf, peers I have spoken to in the 9front community, 9gridchan folks, etc. = It is less 9front vs 9legacy. My position is more 9front & 9legacy coexisti= ng vs a vocal minority who actively pepper messages with with rhetoric supp= orting a theoretical [forced] merger or culling of 9front in favor of a mor= e authentic/pure version. As I said in my email to Eli, it is less a dichot= omy between factions as a position where people in both 9front and 9legacy = [and p9p users, etc. etc.] would happily see a positive mutual community of= peers all congregating in 9fans living in cooperation and harmony vs. thos= e who demand that there be some authority to legitimize one thing and force= others to come to heel or leave.=20 Making =E2=80=9CP.S.=E2=80=9D call outs to garner support for 1P9 (especial= ly by means of appeal to external authority) forces me to speak up. Simple = as that. The 9fans community knows me a bit less [since I mostly ready and = enjoy discussions], but 9front/9grid/other OSS communities kind of know me = as a positive, easy going, get along with everyone kind of guy. Call it =E2= =80=9CPapa Bear=E2=80=9D instincts as a dad, or because I have been in the = midst of other OSS drama over the years [and occasionally have seen what we= re tantamount to hostile, undemocratic takeovers of software projects], I k= ind of feel like I need to protect everyone=E2=80=99s little garden. > So what I'm saying is that 9fans exists, it IS a community; 9front > (the OS) has its own community that overlaps in part with 9fans; > 9legacy (the code) has users, individuals, mostly, who may ignore > 9front, but cannot possibly be accused in any real sense of > participating in a counter-9front conspiracy. If there is any evidence > to the contrary, I'd like to see it. I am not seeing it as a conspiracy [as I said in the prior, not as malice e= ither]. You and several others seem to feel that =E2=80=9CPlan 9=E2=80=9D a= s an OS becomes stronger through editorialization by means of a single visi= on [whether person or committee]. Since P9F has been announced, some people= are expressing a =E2=80=9Cneed=E2=80=9D for a single, definitive Plan 9 [p= ost V4 in January, 2015]. You probably think that is the best. You and othe= rs advocating for it are the heroes of your story=E2=80=A6 of your vision. Conversely, quite a lot of people [not ironically including most 9front dev= s] don=E2=80=99t want authority. They kind of like having the Plan 9 flavor= they use. I mean Jeanne is cool [I like 9front better] and kind of like th= e switch to markdown and some minor unix-isms included in the OS. Some peop= le will probably consider that their jam. For a lot of us, if any official = body would come to being to be a feature/compatibility steering group, it n= eeds to be one that is elected, rather than just some group doing the commu= nity a favor by holding some rights.=20 In this way, us on the other side of the fence are basically just saying, = =E2=80=9Cyeah, no 1P9, especially dictated down from P9F is a bad idea for = our robust and diverse community=E2=80=9D. >> 5) I really wished p9f would tell us more about their plans. It really >> seems like it's what we (9gridchan chat) feared in the beginning: a >> secret society. p9f is very silent, currently only seems to manage GSoC >> and nothing more. They told us they needed time to organize GSoC and >> themselves, but that was in january/february! >>=20 > I think P9F has performed the most important duties they set > themselves: they are providing a useful umbrella to protect Plan > 9-related resources from becoming extinct and have modernised the Plan > 9 software licence to protect Plan 9 from being hi-jacked by hostile > groups. Do you think anything else is required of them? >=20 > As for the issue of Plan 9's "name", I agree with Keith that 9front > may take exception at being left out of the Plan 9 nomenclature and I > think it is up to the 9front community to approach P9F to negotiate > what should be the final outcome. I have no idea what it means for > 9front to be or not to be a "Plan 9" and, off-hand, I bet no one else > in this forum has considered this a relevant issue. But maybe it > should be and whereas "Plan 9" is some kind of intellectual property > owned by P9F, 9front may be welcome to use it. >=20 > In fact, there is some thin ice there, so 9front may well want to > investigate this and approach P9F for clarification, before P9F makes > a decision that may not go down well with everyone. Actually, I remember discussing this with sirjofri and others at the beginn= ing of the year. It=E2=80=99s cool that they got the rights from Nokia, so = it can be relicensed as a fully free license. Cool that there is a sponsors= hip org for GoS requirements [even if the decision-making process was a bit= opaque]. But what are the P9F doing otherwise? Back in the day, we knew th= e community had Lucient=E2=80=99s support for what we were doing. As with N= okia. There was a relationship of sorts. Whereas the P9F (as an org) as bee= n kind of silent. I think most of us know better to conflate the individuals [most of which a= re here] with P9F or their word as the word of that body, so we don=E2=80= =99t. But either regard, we have been given little detail. Similarly, there were at least 2-3 rounds of calls to include 9front in the= roll of projects. Sure, part is that some of the pages are copypasta from = old websites, but really. HTML isn=E2=80=99t hard. It is either laziness or= political.=20 >> It's fine if they want to be silent, but it would be nice to see what we >> can expect from them. Currently it seems like they just want to share >> links to 9legacy and the archive and organize GSoC and hide the fact that >> 9front exists. >>=20 > How do you "hide a fact"? Are you also infected with that conspiracy > theory? And what would P9F possibly gain from such an absurd stance? > 9front appears 11 times (5 or so distinct entries) in the Plan 9 > wikipedia page. I guess the "authors" may be able to remove these > references, but would it not be better if the 9front community chose > to create a wikipedia entry for themselves? That said, if there was a > conspiracy, would the conspirators not have already wiped out 9front > from a wikipedia page over which they presumably have some level of > authority? This is a disingenuous argument. If someone looks for Plan 9 and finds the Official Plan 9 Foundation, they = only have links to 9legacy, p9p, and Inferno. If you know nothing else, you= think that is all that exists of the Plan 9 community.=20 Between 9front and Harvey (and others), you are missing a fair portion of t= he development community in Plan 9 space, and arguably quite active. Again, I am not sure you understand what conspiracy means. It=E2=80=99s eit= her intent or neglect.=20 > Thank you for raising them. As I said up front, I am not a P9F member > of any kind. But I know that its intentions are far less nefarious > than of those who wittingly ascribe nefarious intentions to them. > Again, 9front has an "inside", get it to address with P9F their and > your reservations. If they don't respond, then you and other 9fronters > can bring evidence of ill intentions to this forum. Dude. We aren=E2=80=99t after the heads of P9F. Settle down. The general problems 9front folks have with P9F so far mostly boils down to= the lack of representation. That=E2=80=99s it. I cannot find anywhere were the P9F or any member speaking on behalf of the= org said that we should have One Plan 9.=20 We have beef with the One Plan 9 idea. Or at least the all people I have ta= lked to about this topic. Sirjofri=E2=80=99s email (which you responded to bit by bit, but you may ha= ve lost the context) is to respond to the fact that the P9F never said boo = about 1P9, that is likely implies they don=E2=80=99t want it=E2=80=A6 but= =E2=80=A6 needs to be a bit more actively supportive of other communities w= ithin the greater Plan 9 fold=E2=80=A6 That=E2=80=99s it. He nor I are blam= ing 9PF for your terrible idea. -pixelheresy > Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9ef6430f3025e731-M5ea6e= bbac4132fe10f1ddf6c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription