From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, MIME_HTML_ONLY,MIME_HTML_ONLY_MULTI,MPART_ALT_DIFF,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob20.topicbox.com (tb-ob20.topicbox.com [173.228.157.66]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 680BF214E5 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 23:11:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tb-mx1.topicbox.com (tb-mx1.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.61]) by tb-ob20.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6647B3B907 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:11:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mMad5aa5013c9b5e458f33e39c.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 457FE1466F43; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:11:30 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=OlUNewJe header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=michaelian.ennis@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-pl1-f175.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (body has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to :list-help:list-id:list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to :list-unsubscribe; s=sysmsg-1; t=1713215490; bh=nKqe1cCPSdmdTPKP lp95lBfTMXvmx3MFw0KBsajE9cY=; b=r/T2bcFWAc0g2ZSyKNJz1DZnUpVtDtt2 BFhAg+PvhhCOkHMZqIuZOhTZusppPsYUWnoQRxpDqHh65n9rn/Dc030vE+71LW7t XszwtqfsoKQmaZvVPobEMMyHN+4ZDEreOknz3QDul93iEggSnz1vi49pBXixSmM6 TPAkfPkkMQU= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1713215490; b=NM6MZptArS1gHs7vS0os19x6cKfKHd9yjZqmqSrOhLqq8ubZaE AjpbmElPnsU5PUlHLr20iUuyGV70Bf2yxTnNZniprnqrweGgiuXX5N06z+uRCm82 hValjeB2Wq13gyM4J+4TJcRlUgqOjxga8uPH0a29+MNLi6usARX/Z4Uzw= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=OlUNewJe header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=michaelian.ennis@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-pl1-f175.google.com; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (body has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx0.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=OlUNewJe header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.214.175 (mail-pl1-f175.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=michaelian.ennis@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-pl1-f175.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=OoBfhFO7; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-pl1-f175.google.com policy.ptr=mail-pl1-f175.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=51 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; t=1713215490; x=1713301890; bh=JQYveUdVRACMquZkbZRzQiATGp4Vt1eS 02mv7QqhJb4=; b=p9IHT7VuIn7Z08b5nNwxMKQ0XmdHUU1ui66X3UfHA+aEZCqH LhzUi1Yf5+69pB0Kn0b7bG2cwr9ZzAl7kLHEZSRs0VSEDrpmqRBpJrHpX0TLGzrK tHw7xg3eqGvsShm1bVyeC8BftUvBhrM+R8P4ZXsDh9io2bKwlqCOjH0CvyM= Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3991D155639F for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:11:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from michaelian.ennis@gmail.com) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id AA2E10977EC; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:11:18 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1713215478; b=CeftSTXTklhNin1d4aRpEmSFcHEU3YWXi3q8P4UdChxc+Ls9lr v8Jra1maQ6IWwsXVNtout7VnKUfKM1csM5TC01qF6W1HJJUxXJKfpca4Zelr88Ln 81DKvGUiLKOD90zxZ3y0RiFa08C2a2+JDL8t0ICBlNv73xjPzgoABGxF0Jtec5rx 6FkfLpQhj7Cpo8p1sGInjrMvlDP8C7ETL/xQ7NNLHkTKrMQEqdgVv4InG6KYB5M6 xSuVeYFbFi8o8VLXtKlA5HGtNeD3jEZtM+rU0rXIDHp8x2owYXotItlcgKwaTPMU fOGo2rsKfV5VksrujG4wh7DLuGOiEIxVyQ8Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; s=arcseal; t=1713215478; bh=IAdLa1gyJAJCj56p7zg6fIupmP3VrEO6eGW CMi1eug4=; b=IHf2BChECNg5Xspx5TbGJc1hPHvuAtKFqENjfFo+YthHSvJaYSq w7c7HA+JNET+AeUuKPtRoV5s1m9IewMgkUH7cYYQI1C9JfAcjBd4xGjTmw1JU578 uuGG/vLSiOBL7ZBSGDRVYWHyLicacqGMXgyuazTZMO5FcfeNcsJTQlBn1qvWNP1/ mmajh5eQLAn6SHrtctbIecFUXDLr0MinqYNnIOhxZ46kvkqPKJwMAxBoKaCIMOGg qylcZqTWiaaSOnmWKNbkrCS5bwnEtqVAn49OL55x9lJFDMb2UTOuSNfOgcu9/d86 QTMec6+Y6MPyustIV/EsvaIC38u2/tR9bTA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx0.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key sha256) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=OlUNewJe header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 x-bits=2048; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.published-subdomain-policy=quarantine policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,sp=quarantine,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=gmail.com; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=209.85.214.175 (mail-pl1-f175.google.com); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=michaelian.ennis@gmail.com smtp.helo=mail-pl1-f175.google.com; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-google-dkim=pass (2048-bit rsa key) header.d=1e100.net header.i=@1e100.net header.b=OoBfhFO7; x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mail-pl1-f175.google.com policy.ptr=mail-pl1-f175.google.com; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=51 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrudejvddgudehkecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdp uffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuqfhnlhihuchonhgvuc hprghrthculdehuddmnecujfgurhephfgtgfggufffkfhfjgfvofesrgejmherhhdtjeen ucfhrhhomhepmhhitghhrggvlhhirghnucgvnhhnihhsuceomhhitghhrggvlhhirghnrd gvnhhnihhssehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeffkeehkeejtdeu geeuvedtgeefkeejvefgfedvfeekveehtdegtdeffeekieeikeenucffohhmrghinheptg huvghlrghnghdrohhrghdptghulhgrnhhgrdhorhhgpdhtohhpihgtsghogidrtghomhen ucfkphepvddtledrkeehrddvudegrddujeehpdejuddrvdefuddrudehtddrvddunecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthepvddtledrkeehrddvudeg rddujeehpdhhvghlohepmhgrihhlqdhplhduqdhfudejhedrghhoohhglhgvrdgtohhmpd hmrghilhhfrhhomhepoehmihgthhgrvghlihgrnhdrvghnnhhishesghhmrghilhdrtgho mheqpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedupdhrtghpthhtohepoeelfhgrnhhsseelfhgrnhhsrd hnvghtqe X-ME-VSScore: 51 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'michaelian.ennis@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx0.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="michaelian.ennis@gmail.com"; helo=mail-pl1-f175.google.com; client-ip=209.85.214.175 Received: from mail-pl1-f175.google.com (mail-pl1-f175.google.com [209.85.214.175]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:11:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from michaelian.ennis@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pl1-f175.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1e4266673bbso32147575ad.2 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 14:11:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1713215476; x=1713820276; h=to:in-reply-to:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IAdLa1gyJAJCj56p7zg6fIupmP3VrEO6eGWCMi1eug4=; b=OoBfhFO7rfdJJMPxiZKm/Gk5Q50dVB0TwBsB1IE9TzqliaDLj2ilgTc4uO6Nmpu6Og eQAzjzDpauoTXX4u052sAI9EBLXyFv5h+KgDEhQWjyNWK+zVoumWdRbxn69sFalGA0/F RJDQyZkFyKlwAT0PBbCJJIGbZZle0NpSqWO2RstiCjF1qlVv1bQ55+MWpO9zL9G1NkYC BbLHV18crt4VHZ47rMK5OSNI+DSTHsNGpbDLX0tpG3VAAtzUbHUixcOh7Exxgeb/nUZv qA/TUtquWytos6250mwSG4QI6rp66kvDLTATfXd2fX3rasD/DqmqObEeBTCpqggkgs5Z Tmgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy6Rj7WbvIPkCPbTqH/WWZOi4uAsOqPmVei02VtP3s5N7rdegii gwknFNeN/ARBA8FHW8jXyhkE+CE1U5j6jXEOs14pO/cP1oLOC9cGOh7jnw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG29MIx/f8kTmsUlYrCCgVDtjCTVEJQxDV6icUNuMTonZ+vpc27LUmge6TUYxH+vbqFQgse6g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:cf05:b0:1e5:a3b2:3da2 with SMTP id i5-20020a170902cf0500b001e5a3b23da2mr10825972plg.53.1713215475851; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 14:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (c-71-231-150-21.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [71.231.150.21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l18-20020a170902d05200b001e43db091eesm8411089pll.264.2024.04.15.14.11.14 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Apr 2024 14:11:15 -0700 (PDT) From: michaelian ennis X-Google-Original-From: michaelian ennis Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-71819778-79F0-4C10-A51D-647979B4EA15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [9fans] troll paper Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 14:11:04 -0700 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21E236) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b6749294-fb6c-11ee-96f3-a0b2088c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UNTFmN2Y1YTg5MjdlMTI3MS1NYWQ1YWE1MDEzYzliNWU0NThmMzNl?= =?UTF-8?B?MzljPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mad5aa5013c9b5e458f33e39c:1:ps--A1rAK8bmWDPJVvFzejuuz5sun4EnNVRHb7WABRo --Apple-Mail-71819778-79F0-4C10-A51D-647979B4EA15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 cuelang.org rather 

<= /div>
On Apr 15, 2024, at 13:51, = Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com> wrote:


 And, if I hear about it being
“declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81= ,000+ lines (and
growing) of Y= AML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.

You might find help in culang.org=  

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 at 20:49, Kim Shrier <kim@westryn.net> wrote:
> On Apr 12, 2024, at 4:56Ȃ= F;AM, David Arnold <davida@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> The vetting process needs some work, lads.
>
> More heresy than trolling, perhaps?
>
> It was thought-provoking for me.  I wished I was there for the ba= r session afterwards.
>
> d

It didn’t read like a troll paper to me.  I periodically go thro= ugh
a similar exercise of thinking about how I would re-evaluate
various Plan 9 decisions given the environment we find
ourselves in, more than 35 years after the original work
was done.

I do have an answer to the question, “Do we really have to
have our own kernel?”.

Yes.

Making decisions about fundamental principles upon which
you build your system has profound impacts on every aspect
of the software, including the kernel itself.  Linux is not a good
substitute for Plan 9.

And, I take particular exception to recommending Kubernetes
as a tool for deploying services.  I am having to live through
Kubernetes hell in my day job.  And, if I hear about it being
“declarative” as a virtue, I point to the 81,000+ lines (and growing) of YAML, that I defy any one human to comprehend.

I do think it is a good exercise to reevaluate the premises on
which one builds their systems in order to see if something
needs to change or a completely different approach is
warranted.

I just come to different conclusions than the author of this
paper.

Kim
_
C++ is an off-by-one error





------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https:= //9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T51f7f5a8927e1271-M53fcb07a2a24c78bc0fd55= 45
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/gro= ups/9fans/subscription
= --Apple-Mail-71819778-79F0-4C10-A51D-647979B4EA15--