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Sun, 12 May 2024 19:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 22:33:28 -0400 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 33bb4ddc-10d1-11ef-8da1-af89fc8b7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NODExMTdkMjY4YjhmODQwYjQxMjgx?= =?UTF-8?B?ZjA0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M81117d268b8f840b41281f04:1:aU86ai_LTvjoU5BwF7ZFWG61MjfWUOfsK6LYNCdyqNU 9front and 9legacy look very similar to the untrained eye. The way you use them is nearly identical, but there are a lot of small bits of polish added to 9front, as well as a number of larger tools and utilities. Even 9legacy binaries run on 9front. (And vice versa, as long as the binaries don't depend on new services like mixfs [the audio mixer], or new capabilities in existing services, such as custom response headers in webfs) There's a few things 9legacy has that 9front doesn't. These are mostly kernels for some of the older virtex FPGAs, the removal of some obsolete architectures like sparc, and a few utilities like jtagfs. But as far as I'm aware, most of the desirable changes made in 9legacy and p9p have already been imported into 9front. If I've missed some, let me know, and they may just show up. Quoth clinton : > As a very long time lurker to the plan9 mailing list, something > occasionally catches my eye strewn amongst the arcana. The very first > computer I ever actually touched was in 1979, it had these state of the a= rk > mag stripe cardboard cards which held the enormous amount of 2kb. It wasn= 't > mine, my engineer father brought it home from work and it took up a large > proportion of the dining room table. I was very strictly punished for > laying a finger on the thing, as it was astronomically expensive and my > father was responsible for it. This was just the start of my masochistic > relationship with these fiddly cantankerous things you see. > Over the years I have seen a $5,500 486dx 2 66mHz be reduced to a $25 pile > of junk less than a decade later, a $200 60gb hard drive forlornly sitting > by the side of the road in hard rubbish a decade later, and many other > similar saddening examples. > There of course is a need for using old hardware these days as it seems so > wasteful to just junk something with a 1gHz CPU in it when you fondly > remember your days with a MOS 6510! > If I were completely naive to actually running plan9 but with many clues > about other operating systems and hardware, would it be better for me to > install 9legacy on some mildly obsolescent but still quite serviceable and > reliable hardware, or start with 9front on something more modern? Is the > learning curve the same for both varieties? Would it help getting to know > 9front if I spent a bit of time with her older sister 9legacy? Can 9legacy > be considered the gateway drug to 9front? > I await the scorching flames for my great impudence of interjecting into a > vociferous discussion with such a pragmatic tangent! >=20 > On Monday, May 13, 2024, wrote: >=20 > > I don't think this approach has ever worked in > > the open source world -- it always starts with > > someone building something useful. The vision > > and goal is defined by the work being done. > > > > After something useful is built, people start > > to join in and contribute. > > > > After enough people join in, it makes sense to > > have more organization. > > > > Quoth vester.thacker@fastmail.fm: > > > The complexity of communication in this medium often necessitates > > detailed discussions. You highlighted the need for additional personne= l to > > manage the workload (e.g. do the work). From my perspective, this requ= ires > > a well-defined vision, clear objectives, and a prioritized list of > > deliverables to align efforts effectively. Currently, it seems the rol= e of > > product managers is collectively held, though it's unclear who exactly = is > > responsible. Typically, a team of two or more individuals would focus = on > > these deliverables. In past projects, I've seen the use of a project b= oard > > to keep everyone updated on tasks=E2=80=94an approach known as "informa= tion > > radiator" in project management. I'm open to other methods if you had > > something different in mind that I may have overlooked. If you are > > considering a meritocracy, I would recommend caution. Experience has s= hown > > that what we truly need is increased collaboration and unity, rather th= an a > > system that could potentially encourage competition and division. I > > apologize if my message is obtuse, I am trying to keep this message > > concise, I can expound more for clarity. I hope my explanation helps. > > > > > > Vic > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 03:36, ori@eigenstate.org wrote: > > > > that's not what I said. > > > > > > > > Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: > > > >> I agree that having a clear vision and charter is essential before > > forming a team. Regarding building an inclusive Plan 9 community that > > encompasses multiple groups, it's important to establish common goals a= nd > > values that resonate with all members. What are your thoughts on creati= ng > > open channels for dialogue and collaboration? How can we ensure that > > everyone feels valued and heard? This approach could foster a more > > cooperative and inclusive environment. > > > >> > > > >> Vic > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 16:19, plan6@room3420.net wrote: > > > >> > "tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try > > > >> > to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is > > > >> > to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value." [from Ori]. > > > >> > or > > > >> > "Don't be the kid who can't play [whatever]ball but wants to te= ach > > > >> > everybody and be the team coach, just because he read a book." ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M81117= d268b8f840b41281f04 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription