From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 09:04:10 +0100 From: Eris Discordia To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor Topicbox-Message-UUID: 01ab112e-ead4-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 > No, that's not the UNIX philosophy. That's the X/Linux/GNU philosophy. Go > read "Program Design in the UNIX Environment" by Kernighan and Pike to > see what I mean. Get educated. Don't you even know where X came from? Just a funny idea: have you noticed that the "Kernighan, Pike, Ritchie,=20 Thomspon" quartet always lacks two legs? Am I right on this one? There is=20 K&R, K&P, and P&T. Have yet to see P&R, is there one? > In Plan 9, it's Alt t m, as three individual keystrokes. See keyboard(6) > to find out what your system would see as Alt. You don't need to keep > the Alt held down. Now send yourself an email with Alt f a (the for all > character) and Alt * P (uppercase pi) How about going back to four buckey bits, hacker? For your information, Pi=20 is within ISO 8859, 8859-7 to be precise. Now you do one thing: enter a=20 daleth, put one rafe above it--i.e. "=D7=93=D6=BF"--, and tell me the = result. I do Windows. When I need to type in another language--and I often need=20 that for three languages--I press [Alt]+[Shift] and I get the keyboard=20 layout for that language. The right scan codes go to the right characters=20 codes which in turn go to the right glyphs for every major alphabet/script=20 on Earth, including right-to-left scripts. When I need a Unicode character out of the ordinary (like this one, = "=E3=8A=AA")=20 I press [Alt] and hold it, press [+] on numeric keypad once, then type in=20 the hexadecimal code for that character. "Any" two-byte Unicode character.=20 I learn the code out of Character Map from which I can get the character=20 even more easily. http://www.fileformat.info/tip/microsoft/enter_unicode.htm > Impressive. Someone learned something from us after all. (1985 -- when > did curl come out?) "Us?" What is 1985? Your year of birth or Plan 9's or what? cURL's author didn't need to learn from "you"--whoever your "you"=20 denotes--to do a simple job. Here's its history: http://curl.haxx.se/docs/history.html. It began in 1997. Gopher support was removed soon after because Gopher is a = dead (or dying?)protocol. > It would be about 75% shorter. And you can't just use the system calls. > libc is built around subroutines. In all, Rob Pike got connected to an IP > address in 2 lines of code compared to ~20 for sockets. ("The Good, The > Bad, and The Ugly") When and where did Rob Pike do it? Didn't he incidentally leverage two (or=20 more) additional abstraction layers over the network stack and the socket=20 abstraction to achieve that? I can "get connected to an IP address"--overlooking your glaring ignorance=20 about the fact that on IP (Internet Protocol) machines "connect" to=20 _endpoints_ not "IP addresses"--in a one liner on Microsoft .NET framework. = Nevertheless, that doesn't make .NET framework my platform of choice for=20 programming. Boast it when you can _do_ it. Whatever I tell you I _can_ do, = I _can_ do. Whatever I _can't_ do, I keep to myself. > No comment. "Thank you, again." --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:08 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi=20 wrote: > On Aug 19, 2008, at 9:39 PM, Eris Discordia wrote: > >>> No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX >>> philosophy, >>> not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the point of >>> where >>> to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some extent, Windows >>> (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer now, does it?) >> >> I guess "the UNIX philosophy"--whatever that vague phrase is >> supposed to mean--contains "the X philosophy." The core dictum goes: >> "mechanism, not policy." That is, they give you the "femur," you >> determine its use. Russ Cox knows this better; he's the one at the >> MIT. "The Plan 9 philosophy" goes as far as telling you to "not ask >> for a ruler" in your text editor (ruler in vi :=3D a pair of numbers; >> column, row). > > No, that's not the UNIX philosophy. That's the X/Linux/GNU philosophy. Go > read "Program Design in the UNIX Environment" by Kernighan and Pike to > see what I mean. > >> >> >>> Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder >>> system). >>> How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a trademark >>> symbol? Do >>> yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/keyboard for some >>> characters >>> and send them here. If they come back as sent, you've proven my >>> point. >>> Otherwise, you found a bug. >> >> Plan 9 is not _my_ pet OS. 9people, and you who are too young to be >> a 9person, are taking pride in "UTF-8." That's been the gesture for >> a over a decade. Now, it's old, it's insignificant, and Plan 9 >> doesn't even deliver. Anyway, _you_ made a claim. You have to prove >> it. I don't even run Plan 9 anymore. Gave it up. >> >> Steve Simon's trademark character, I presume, was generated by [Alt] >> +0153--you call [Alt] an "Option" key, right? Well below 255, it's >> just extended/8-bit ASCII. Not right-to-left, not even out of ISO >> 8859. You could generate that character even on MS-DOS. >> >> Though, his email's header says the charset if UTF-8. No big deal. > > In Plan 9, it's Alt t m, as three individual keystrokes. See keyboard(6) > to find out what your system would see as Alt. You don't need to keep > the Alt held down. Now send yourself an email with Alt f a (the for all > character) and Alt * P (uppercase pi) > >> >> >>> gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp # Demonstration; don't try this >>> motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555 >>> cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg >> >> Zing! Who wrote the fs behind /n/cell? You got Morotola to write it >> for you? >> >> $ curl gopher://tokyo.ac.jp/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg >> $ ifconfig cellnetif num "555 555 5555" >> $ mount -t motofs /dev/cellnetif /mnt/cell >> $ cp ./r.tokyo.jpg /mnt/cell/ >> >> (You gotta use an archaic version of curl. Gopher support was >> removed when mammoths roamed the Earth) >> >> Of course, motofs and cellnetif are imaginary, just like your >> "motorola." The problem is the same on UNIX and Plan 9, but on UNIX >> it is much more likely that you find someone who solved it before. >> And it is much less likely that someone tells you it isn't "the way >> to do it." >> >> Incidentally, someone I know has recently bought a Motorola A1200 >> that runs a nice tiny Linux. > > Impressive. Someone learned something from us after all. (1985 -- when > did curl come out?) > >> >> >>> Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you? >> >> Write that in Plan 9 system calls. That is what _you_ use, don't you? >> > > It would be about 75% shorter. And you can't just use the system calls. > libc is built around subroutines. In all, Rob Pike got connected to an IP > address in 2 lines of code compared to ~20 for sockets. ("The Good, The > Bad, and The Ugly") > >>> Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just >>> open your >>> eyes. >> >> "Thank you." > > No comment. > >