From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (tb-ob1.topicbox.com [64.147.108.173]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F6E26212 for ; Sun, 12 May 2024 02:43:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5ABD38E78 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 20:43:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bounce.mMb17573a9b6cf014d60859905.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id A2AB7184A90F; Sat, 11 May 2024 20:43:39 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (1024-bit rsa key sha1) header.d=eigenstate.org header.i=@eigenstate.org header.b=BIkQk/s0 header.a=rsa-sha1 header.s=mail x-bits=1024; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=eigenstate.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ori@eigenstate.org smtp.helo=mimir.eigenstate.org; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=message-id:to:subject:date:from:in-reply-to :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:list-help :list-id:list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s= sysmsg-1; t=1715474619; bh=u+xCURhkVdo23qqszAOBC+rFGVvuCcl0Fv3kw RQVYOY=; b=LGiAPHYv7yA571wpCpcSEjQmq3v90jyngDYDxL8AAqR/4z2kgTX1p iK4IL8tH/i/LOqNBiCtdp0SGjIGbkDOgeOrt+Y1+z9WAxsfOYcVdt3gS1oAVDOem IE3eHuKLErXUjxAQ3e0abtTFjE6mz2EiYad2gZAmjhWoLLoBOCjBbc= ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; d=topicbox.com; s=sysmsg-1; t= 1715474619; b=MN6uArseeT9uWJp4/fk50RqCnwF8minWSE+mKz+VAlBE005WBy w1PCCohWXQSPHznhP0x7MOMcvVHRSm00ZREXikuRcJDI1KrsyH3Tt1u5wmeouIcT OGn4Z54xc7oYBx5GYiHV9yhuzLimAZfbsQfKEPAf0IzKPROYSmXq9eZcI= Authentication-Results: topicbox.com; arc=pass; dkim=pass (1024-bit rsa key sha1) header.d=eigenstate.org header.i=@eigenstate.org header.b=BIkQk/s0 header.a=rsa-sha1 header.s=mail x-bits=1024; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=eigenstate.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ori@eigenstate.org smtp.helo=mimir.eigenstate.org; x-internal-arc=fail (as.1.topicbox.com=pass, ams.1.topicbox.com=fail (message has been altered)) (Message modified while forwarding at Topicbox) X-Received-Authentication-Results: tb-mx0.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (1024-bit rsa key sha1) header.d=eigenstate.org header.i=@eigenstate.org header.b=BIkQk/s0 header.a=rsa-sha1 header.s=mail x-bits=1024; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=eigenstate.org; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=206.124.132.107 (mimir.eigenstate.org); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ori@eigenstate.org smtp.helo=mimir.eigenstate.org; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mimir.eigenstate.org policy.ptr=mimir.eigenstate.org; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=eigenstate.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: eigenstate.org,mail.pikopiko.org,kusuri.pikopiko.org,nokogiri.pikopiko.org); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=eigenstate.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: eigenstate.org,mail.pikopiko.org,kusuri.pikopiko.org,nokogiri.pikopiko.org); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=17 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=message-id :to:subject:date:from:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:list-help:list-id:list-post :list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; t= 1715474619; x=1715561019; bh=4Stlej47mtP9HvFcnMHtd1n3mXnIdgF+pLB R6mTWa6I=; b=HMvALATokCvKjkKKtboBgZMn4W3FYS6zMtU1pS0nVN4QjvX0Gkm kPNWYf/l3izLus1Ma1zLsTNYsldwPoBdoEKOETlbVFVCh9C174cLYJLzSDF0UEGH FL/rSxtxpX7EAEx/CCt4T1JQM37LrmOUO0+J0rAUloEHL2/pQUjEiAT0= Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24AE184A4DC for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 11 May 2024 20:43:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ori@eigenstate.org) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id 1AA4F43C2DE; Sat, 11 May 2024 20:43:27 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; d=topicbox.com; s=arcseal; t= 1715474607; b=SuqLBPPpur6Oel2xzx3Am5NCJbOS3mwNZJ8FLjRoB09Qsh8fgR 276VmmDhJIEwcuFziZyXaNo4GyOv3IwcVt5UFgSm80kazGiUYSAb89H7cCKGy/fU pkgDlH4e3h3UAUtBoDmWDUU3kdX5PxgzBiTEGz8bOcy/jk10SH0DrawCm4EQ+kln 8c873Mlr7qfDShPl7ZPJO3m31U5a/Nz3vsrcXElalUsqDOyEle6hi6hM+mJAVeqV dZWi23qcOeJTLVqkxV9tKX1MknhLLWM4un9wwpi1MAEorkkbGV5aN3pcwza2Mk1k zHdUGQuMwqDSxwFl8n6ttRmLsVmaeU/xwrJA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= topicbox.com; h=message-id:to:subject:date:from:in-reply-to :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=arcseal; t=1715474607; bh=fEXslXXLruATbsDe2qYlRledyhk0RsOkZZMs9hRCacg=; b= hNgg6Ds+NlnUcyuOsFVUkOgtuH/qqoCloR4OUoT3Oln+VCpna56k+UY1kQsKUXIK BhRJAWDOoMFswr0T5ACqi3G7FILr3FRU3EgKMXvnSxQMP1/TnzIXSbsmdatqxpv0 OqQ3P/OrKAAR8JI2n+xe5vwzbl12uONmeRU2sZB0nwZLPuy31XPludVoqOam2FvC pOZWKr60+f7DogNAyhJ+kJsQc1e43asZpwgWG1tPBubg8BYMlUxOohksFdSRv5e7 tVsGmXX7pWPqBrEwNe9LDALNXD44URnu6gow15T8Ch+bBPORr7mu7fRSvJw4Kj+0 YsWuGLlG1wkQ54QoLD0Vow== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; tb-mx0.topicbox.com; arc=none (no signatures found); bimi=skipped (DMARC Policy is not at enforcement); dkim=pass (1024-bit rsa key sha1) header.d=eigenstate.org header.i=@eigenstate.org header.b=BIkQk/s0 header.a=rsa-sha1 header.s=mail x-bits=1024; dmarc=pass policy.published-domain-policy=none policy.applied-disposition=none policy.evaluated-disposition=none (p=none,d=none,d.eval=none) policy.policy-from=p header.from=eigenstate.org; iprev=pass smtp.remote-ip=206.124.132.107 (mimir.eigenstate.org); spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ori@eigenstate.org smtp.helo=mimir.eigenstate.org; x-aligned-from=pass (Address match); x-me-sender=none; x-ptr=pass smtp.helo=mimir.eigenstate.org policy.ptr=mimir.eigenstate.org; x-return-mx=pass header.domain=eigenstate.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: eigenstate.org,mail.pikopiko.org,kusuri.pikopiko.org,nokogiri.pikopiko.org); x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=eigenstate.org policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: eigenstate.org,mail.pikopiko.org,kusuri.pikopiko.org,nokogiri.pikopiko.org); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=17 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrvdeguddgfeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfu rfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucgfrhhlucfvnfffucdlud ejmdenucfjughrpefkvffufffhjgggtgfgsehtkeejtddttdejnecuhfhrohhmpehorhhi segvihhgvghnshhtrghtvgdrohhrghenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeefgfevieduhfehie duteffveehffehjeejvefhueeghfevffeludejtdevgeegffenucffohhmrghinhepthho phhitggsohigrdgtohhmnecukfhppedvtdeirdduvdegrddufedvrddutdejpddutdekrd eirddvgedrvdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepihhnvghtpedv tdeirdduvdegrddufedvrddutdejpdhhvghlohepmhhimhhirhdrvghighgvnhhsthgrth gvrdhorhhgpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepoehorhhisegvihhgvghnshhtrghtvgdrohhrgheq pdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedupdhrtghpthhtohepoeelfhgrnhhsseelfhgrnhhsrdhnvg htqe X-ME-VSScore: 17 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (eigenstate.org: 206.124.132.107 is authorized to use 'ori@eigenstate.org' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ip4:206.124.132.96/28' matched)) receiver=tb-mx0.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="ori@eigenstate.org"; helo=mimir.eigenstate.org; client-ip=206.124.132.107 Received: from mimir.eigenstate.org (mimir.eigenstate.org [206.124.132.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 11 May 2024 20:43:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ori@eigenstate.org) Received: from mimir.eigenstate.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mimir.eigenstate.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f00cf279 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 11 May 2024 17:43:24 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=eigenstate.org; h=message-id :to:subject:date:from:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=mail; b=LKnUKv4G/Jmil5Qv1gV 70JiqGEjawiWAbh1628/1rtvKOpelQSSqEr3mI7Bw49mummDqmggfbULL4rriFtS FbMqWZ+U7GdRVLMvVkmFYHJ1hiUpxILZci+ZUkMkz2ryKgP9A2LrppsPju1Devqv cotkVy8494FLqAMyfqjHieIQ= Received: from abbatoir (pool-108-6-24-2.nycmny.fios.verizon.net [108.6.24.2]) by mimir.eigenstate.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id c0c3db17 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256:NO) for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 11 May 2024 17:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 20:43:22 -0400 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: <2c81083e-b0fd-4d77-b5f2-1c1e5165a0d2@app.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: a8c5eb3e-0ff8-11ef-89ed-a5b1028c7b06 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NYjE3NTczYTliNmNmMDE0ZDYwODU5?= =?UTF-8?B?OTA1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mb17573a9b6cf014d60859905:1:P6W1xQAu4iCbvLEiViylac6sY7Wpek9qN5J4L1qWMJE As far as I can tell, 9front doesn't have a problem on this side; we just imported the Power64 compilers, have working versions of risc64, etc, all pulled in from the 9legacy world. The work to port usually ranges between negligible and trivial. As far as I can tell, the only thing preventing 9front changes from making their way back to 9legacy is a lack of hands to do the work. And while I'm happy to lend a hand, help debug, and even make trivial changes to enhance portability, I personally don't care to spend time porting software to a system I don't intend to use. tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value. Quoth vic.thacker@fastmail.fm: > Perhaps adopting this mindset could be beneficial. When developing a feat= ure, it's worth considering its potential for portability and usefulness to= other communities. >=20 > Vic >=20 > On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 07:27, hiro wrote: > > just send the code then > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 12:22=E2=80=AFAM wrot= e: > >> > >> Let me explain my intent and elaborate on my point of view. I started= a new thread to enhance the signal-to-noise ratio. It's easy for a thread = to become cluttered with multiple issues, so I believe creating separate th= reads for distinct concerns helps streamline communication and keeps discus= sions focused. > >> > >> As a hobbyist, I see we all share a passion for Plan 9 and its develop= ment. Enhancing collaboration between communities would benefit everyone i= nvolved, and potentially enhance decorum on 9fans. I am curious to gauge w= hether there is any interest in activities that could facilitate positive t= eamwork, foster stronger connections, and break down barriers between commu= nities. > >> > >> Fostering discord among communities seems to only perpetuate more disc= ord. In my mind, seeking to improve collaboration between communities seem= ed, and still seems, worthwhile. > >> > >> As a hobbyist, I find myself pondering: What motivates individuals to = participate in 9fans if not for a genuine interest in supporting the Plan 9= community? > >> > >> Vic > >> > >> > >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 01:26, hiro wrote: > >> > congrats for teaching the bot to create more email threads with new > >> > subjects. just what we need as a community. > >> > > >> > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 4:55=E2=80=AFPM Lucio De Re wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I guess we're on the same page, right up and including the fist fig= ht(s). But I think we are all entitled to be treated more courteously in a = public forum such as this, including not ascribing malice unless it is expl= icit. Being touchy has plagued this forum just about forever, it would be n= icer if instead of calling out bad behaviour, it got the benefit of the dou= bt. I accept that I was as guilty of that presumption as much as anyone who= posted after me. > >> >> > >> >> Lucio. > >> >> > >> >> On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 3:39=E2=80=AFPM wrote: > >> >>> > > >> >>> > What I notice - correct me if I am mistaken - is that any compar= ison between 9front and 9legacy seems to needle a few members (very few, th= ere are many names from that community that have not participated, specific= ally the ones I know hand have long respectes, ask them) of the 9front comm= unity that seem to take offence unless 9front is painted in a better light.= I guess that's permissible, but please mind your manners if you choose to = go that route, this is 9fans and 9front I believe has its own discussion gr= oups. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >>> I offer you the perspective that this happens by rule when obvious= ly wrong > >> >>> or ridicolous claims or demands about / of 9front are made. > >> >>> This is seen to further degrade the already quite degraded perspec= tive > >> >>> it has within parts of the 9fans community. > >> >>> > >> >>> I don't think it is unreasonable for people who have invested a lo= t of effort > >> >>> into 9front and believe it to be something worthwhile to feel the = urgency to > >> >>> defend it, or at the very least talk about it. > >> >>> > >> >>> I do think a bit more courtesy or less bad faith assumptions could > >> >>> be prescribed to certain individuals, and not only on the 9front s= ide. > >> >>> > >> >>> Anyway, I propose such issues are best solved by a fist fight, the= refore > >> >>> acknowledging the legacy of dispute resolution methods of our ance= stors and > >> >>> fostering a more resilient and vibrant community that thrives on b= oth change > >> >>> and tradition. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Lucio De Re > >> >> 2 Piet Retief St > >> >> Kestell (Eastern Free State) > >> >> 9860 South Africa > >> >> > >> >> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 > >> >> Cell: +27 83 251 5824 > >> >> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options P= ermalink ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Mb1757= 3a9b6cf014d60859905 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription