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Sun, 22 Aug 2021 12:09:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <92764e35-f5cf-460a-91df-050ba471e6dd@sirjofri.de> <9352EE7C-AE94-4C1C-8738-5A1DA8ECE5A7@iitbombay.org> In-Reply-To: From: Paul Lalonde Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 12:09:03 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Drawterm GPU (was: Software philosophy) To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000faead505ca2aa20a" Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 75782f3e-037c-11ec-8de4-9e11e1be1de6 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UYWQyOWJmYzIyM2RjNGZiZS1NNjMwOWQwZDI2NDRlMDY1MWU3NGI5?= =?UTF-8?B?OTAxPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M6309d0d2644e0651e74b9901:1:CjXdO_BgUs_JyiOS7OBF9m_DCsvQo1IwxbVVqbioj2s --000000000000faead505ca2aa20a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm pretty sure we're still re-inventing, though it's the CPU's turn to gain some of the complexity of the graphics engine. Paul On Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 12:05 PM Bakul Shah wrote: > Thanks. Looks like Sutherland's "Wheel of Reincarnation > " > has not only stopped but exploded :-) Or stopped being applicable. > > -- Bakul > > On Aug 22, 2021, at 9:23 AM, Paul Lalonde > wrote: > > It got complicated because there's no stable interface or ISA. The > hardware evolved from fixed-function to programmable in a commercial > environment where the only meaningful measure was raw performance per > dollar at many price points. Every year the hardware spins and becomes > more performant, usually faster than Moore's law. With 3D APIs hiding the > hardware details there is no pressure to make the hardware interface > uniform, pretty, or neat. And with the need for performance there are > dozens of fixed function units that effectively need their own sub-drivers > while coordinating at high performance with the other units. > The system diagrams for GPUs look complex, but they are radical > simplifications of what's really on the inside. > > Intel really pioneered the open driver stacks, but performance generally > wasn't there. That might be changing now, but I don't know if their > recently announced discrete product line will be driver-compatible. > > Paul > > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 8:48 AM Bakul Shah wrote: > >> The FreeBSD amdgpu.ko is over 3Mbytes of compiled code. Not counting the >> "firmware" that gets loaded on the GPU board. drm/amd/amdgpu has 200K+ >> lines of source code. drm/amd over 2M lines of code. Intel's i915 seems = to >> be about 1/10th the amd size. AIUI, this is linux GPU driver code, more = or >> less unchanged (FreeBSD has shim code to use it). How did the interface = to >> an SIMD processor get so complicated? >> >> On Aug 22, 2021, at 6:44 AM, Paul Lalonde >> wrote: >> >> I'd love to see GPU support for Plan9. This discussion falls right into >> my professional capacity. I'll say that people generally *grossly* >> underestimate the complexity of a modern GPU and of its supporting softw= are >> stack. The GPU driver is effectively a second operating system with sha= red >> memory and DMA interfaces to the host. Even bringing up a modern GPU for >> just compute tasks is a very large endeavour. >> >> That being said, if you want real hardware support, the best place to >> start is currently AMD's open-source stack. Ignoring the Vulkan bit, >> understanding their platform abstraction layer (PAL) and shader ISA ( >> https://developer.amd.com/wp-content/resources/Vega_Shader_ISA_28July201= 7.pdf) >> is the base. The lower hardware levels are reasonably well-described in >> linux's libdrm and its AMD support in amdgpu. >> >> Opinions on how to bring this to Plan9? I don't really have any - it's a >> huge pile of work with minimal benefit. If you're looking for lightweig= ht >> graphics, WebGL is a doable path, and almost certainly the right way to >> experiment with Plan9-like interfaces to graphics hardware. >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 5:30 AM sirjofri >> wrote: >> >>> >>> 22.08.2021 14:10:20 Stuart Morrow : >>> > Also: >>> >> people have discussed that for years >>> > >>> > They have? I mean I might have seen occasionally someone vaguely >>> > going "some sort of GPU support would be cool to have". That isn't >>> > discussion. >>>=20 >>> I've even heard of someone actually making GPU stuff work on plan 9. >>> I've >>> only heard from their partner, who made a cute glenda thing on a piece >>> of >>> cloth. I chatted with her a little and told her she should encourage her >>> partner for some discussion about this in our channels. It looked like >>> it's some academic work, but I don't know any details about it. >>>=20 >>> Worst case, someone already has a proper and good GPU implementation for >>> Plan 9 and nobody knows about it. >>>=20 >>> sirjofri >>>=20 >>> Btw if the said person reads this: it would be nice to learn some >>> details. >> >> >> >> -- Bakul >> >> > *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions > + participants > + delivery options > Permalink > > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad29bfc223dc4fbe-M6309d= 0d2644e0651e74b9901 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000faead505ca2aa20a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm pretty sure we're still re-invent= ing, though it's the CPU's turn to gain some of the complexity of t= he graphics engine.

Paul

On Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 12:05 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
Thanks. Looks like Sutherland's "Wheel of Reincarnation" h= as not only stopped but exploded :-) Or stopped being applicable.

-- Bakul

On= Aug 22, 2021, at 9:23 AM, Paul Lalonde <paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

It got complicated because = there's no stable interface or ISA.  The hardware evolved from fix= ed-function to programmable in a commercial environment where the only mean= ingful measure was raw performance per dollar at many price points.  E= very year the hardware spins and becomes more performant, usually faster th= an Moore's law.  With 3D APIs hiding the hardware details there is= no pressure to make the hardware interface uniform, pretty, or neat. = And with the need for performance there are dozens of fixed function units= that effectively need their own sub-drivers while coordinating at high per= formance with the other units. 
The system diagrams for GPUs look= complex, but they are radical simplifications of what's really on the = inside.

Intel really pioneered the open driver stacks,= but performance generally wasn't there.  That might be changing n= ow, but I don't know if their recently announced discrete product line = will be driver-compatible.

Paul

=

On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 8:48 AM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbomb= ay.org> wrote:
The FreeBSD amdgpu.ko is over 3Mbytes of compiled code. N= ot counting the "firmware" that gets loaded on the GPU board. drm= /amd/amdgpu has 200K+ lines of source code. drm/amd over 2M lines of code. = Intel's i915 seems to be about 1/10th the amd size. AIUI, this is linux= GPU driver code, more or less unchanged (FreeBSD has shim code to use it).= How did the interface to an SIMD processor get so complicated?
On Aug 22, 2021, at 6:44 AM, Paul Lalond= e <paul.a.lalonde@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd love to see  GPU support for Plan9.  This discu= ssion falls right into my professional capacity.  I'll say that pe= ople generally *grossly* underestimate the complexity of a modern GPU and o= f its supporting software stack.  The GPU driver is effectively a seco= nd operating system with shared memory and DMA interfaces to the host. = ; Even bringing up a modern GPU for just compute tasks is a very large ende= avour.

That being said, if you want real hardware= support, the best place to start is currently AMD's open-source stack.=   Ignoring the Vulkan bit, understanding their platform abstraction la= yer (PAL) and shader ISA (https://developer.amd.com/wp-content/resources/Vega_Shader_ISA_28July201= 7.pdf) is the base.  The lower hardware levels are reasonably well= -described in linux's libdrm and its AMD support in amdgpu.
<= div>
Opinions on how to bring this to Plan9?  I don= 9;t really have any - it's a huge pile of work with minimal benefit.&nb= sp; If you're looking for lightweight graphics, WebGL is a doable path,= and almost certainly the right way to experiment with Plan9-like interface= s to graphics hardware.

Paul



On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 5:30 AM sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de> wrote:

22.08.2021 14:10:20 Stuart Morrow <morrow.stuart@gmail.com>:=
> Also:
>> people have discussed that for years
>
> They have?  I mean I might have seen occasionally someone vaguely=
> going "some sort of GPU support would be cool to have". = ; That isn't
> discussion.

I've even heard of someone actually making GPU stuff work on plan 9. I&= #39;ve
only heard from their partner, who made a cute glenda thing on a piece of <= br /> cloth. I chatted with her a little and told her she should encourage her partner for some discussion about this in our channels. It looked like
it's some academic work, but I don't know any details about it.

Worst case, someone already has a proper and good GPU implementation for Plan 9 and nobody knows about it.

sirjofri

Btw if the said person reads this: it would be nice to learn some
details.

------------------------------------------
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad29bfc223dc4fbe-Md3d5cd693c1= 2f948ad4720bc
Delivery options: https://9fans.topic= box.com/groups/9fans/subscription



-- Bakul

= --000000000000faead505ca2aa20a--