From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <212BE98CB8836987E226EAC522589E24@ewsd.inri.net> <884BE8B1-6929-4EC3-8B4D-CA9D3A24C266@gmail.com> <20181004085046.GA562@wopr> <74741C47-DF7F-4ED9-BEE6-837D48A1D2D7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <74741C47-DF7F-4ED9-BEE6-837D48A1D2D7@gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Iruat=C3=A3_Souza?= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:31:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [9fans] plan9port : complete system : kernel : freebsd || linux ? Topicbox-Message-UUID: e716ec56-ead9-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 3:35 AM Rui Carmo wrote: > > I=E2=80=99ll bite, partially because I=E2=80=99m used to finding resistan= ce to exploratory ideas and learning paths, but mostly because I find this = kind of passionate, biased argument fascinating in tech contexts... > > > On 4 Oct 2018, at 09:50, Kurt H Maier wrote: > > > > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:50:35AM +0100, Rui Carmo wrote: > >> I wouldn=E2=80=99t allow the passive-aggressive mood that surfaces her= e from > >> time to time to turn me off the project. > > > > How about regular aggressive? > > Regular aggressive is taking things outside the realm of civilised discou= rse, which is easy to do behind a keyboard, since being irate at abstract t= hings seems to be a slippery slope when removed from regular human contact. > > However, it is not really acceptable, even with an attempt at (biased) lo= gic behind it. > > > Starting with "what project?" We're gonna slap down an alpine rootfs > > and throw plan9port in /bin? Every single person on this list has heard > > this exact "idea" with this exact lack of coherent expression at least > > twelve times before, probably from me. > > And the problem with doing that as a learning experience or for the purpo= se of having better tooling is exactly=E2=80=A6 what? > > > The problem here is, in a record few number of posts, this person has > > demonstrated a desire to mix two operationg systems while demonstrating > > fundamental misunderstandings of both of them -- then in some kind of > > incompetence coup de gras, > > You meant =E2=80=9Cgrace=E2=80=9D (pronounced =E2=80=9Cgrasse=E2=80=9D), = not =E2=80=9Cgreasy=E2=80=9D, as in =E2=80=9Cfoie de gras=E2=80=9D. I can u= nderstand that mastery of foreign languages might slip away under the kind = of blood pressure involved in your original reply. > > > managed to display an utter ignorance of > > software development en route. A fine display of efficiency! most > > Kickstarter projects, for instance, take years to demonstrate this > > degree of overconfident ineptitude! > > Ignorance takes many forms, such as lack of empathy (which can translate = in some contexts to =E2=80=9Cemotional ignorance=E2=80=9D). The attempt at = drawing parallels with Kickstarter (and the implicit bias against experimen= tation and focusing only on failures) is amusing, but telling. > > > This sort of garbage post results in flames because it's > > attention-seeking nonsense of the kind that generates many upvotes on > > web forums, but no actual goddamn software. > > This isn=E2=80=99t a web forum. It is a mailing-list, and as such (as I w= ould like to think) one of the last bastions of measured, rational discours= e on today=E2=80=99s Internet (ok, there was ample precedent for flame wars= in FidoNet, and we can gloss over the Usenet massacres, but I think my poi= nt has a chance of getting across). You are not helping to set a positive t= one. > > >> That said, I=E2=80=99m fascinated by how often (and how quickly) some = threads > >> devolve into =E2=80=9Cthere is no point in doing that=E2=80=9D or =E2= =80=9Cwe don=E2=80=99t need > >> those modern contraptions=E2=80=9D arguments - reminds me a lot of som= e of > >> the hard boiled academia types I used to work with back when VMS > >> started losing ground. > > > > You're not fascinated by shit; that's a medium- to low-quality > > rhetorical dodge to throw mud at straw men. Stand by your opinions, > > soldier -- you don't get bonus points for fake rumination. For the > > record, I think it's a fine idea, but this guy isn't the one who's > > gonna cross that finish line. Not this decade, at least, and I'd > > lay good money that it's not next decade, either. > > And yet, if no-one tries, nobody will ever deliver on it. > Except that many people have tried. And failed. Experimentation is wonderful, but one should always understand the previous efforts. > > If nothing else, by the time you get a decent clip down this road, you > > come to understand why the locals were laughing as you passed them. > > History is filled with people who were laughed at and changed (even if in= small ways) the world we live in. Being able to remember that is what sepa= rates civilised cultures from biased, negative cultures that prey on (and a= nticipate) failure for the sake of entertainment. Ancient Rome comes to min= d here. > > >> As much as some folk here are not exactly fond of various nuances of > >> modern tech (from Linux to X to git, etc.), I don=E2=80=99t think the= re=E2=80=99s > >> any need for dissing personal efforts to use or improve various > >> aspects of Plan9 (including, horror of horrors, making the user land > >> a bit more modern and usable, or at least more accessible to > >> mainstream users). > > > > Efforts? More hypothesizing? or is there some effort happening > > somewhere here? Anyway, needlessly or not, I'm not dissing any effort. > > I'm dissing a person; 100% USDA Prime Ad Hominem, just ask Irving Copi > > if it ain't. > > I parsed that as the Dept. of Agriculture until I realised there were no = animal husbandry puns to fit this situation. Regardless, I fully expected a= red =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s make Plan9 great=E2=80=9D again baseball cap to= emerge from this argument. Not being a political partisan, I=E2=80=99m not= going to go there, and point out that ad hominem is always a way to introd= uce fallacy when genuine arguments don=E2=80=99t hold water (or alcohol). > > > You know what the best part is? If I've got it all wrong, and this > > person is indeed the Palamedes who will round out our unixy alphabet, > > then I'll still get to use the software. So let's all hope I'm wrong! > > Let=E2=80=99s. > > > But I'm not. > > You might. Failure to recognise the odds that you are says a lot. > > >> I=E2=80=99m just going to fetch my vitriol wiper now. > > > > Happy to help, > > Loved this bout of sparring. Reminds me of when I believed technology alo= ne could save the world, until I figured out that people (and how you relat= e to them) is the whole point of doing most of what actually matters. > > Cheers, > > R.