Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Brian L. Stuart]

On Fri, 12/29/17, Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:11:22 +0000 "Brian L. Stuart" <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>  I'm at the same point I usually am when getting ready to teach my winter term OS
>> course.
>
> Why teach about Inferno? Just curious.

It works out to be the sweet spot where a lot of considerations come
together.  First, I like to teach OS from an internals point of view.  I
feel that one should understand how one's tools work before using
them.  Second, like a lot of people of my generation, the way I really
learned about operating systems was from Lions commentary on
6th Edition.  For years, I had been thinking about writing an OS text,
but had been teaching from Tanenbaum using MINIX.  It was getting
somewhat problematic in the days when no one was running VMs
for everything and students were getting to where they didn't know
how to partition drives and run other OSs.  Then when Vita Nuova
released the Inferno source, it was like all the pieces fell into place.
It's well-written and carries a lot of the same ideas as Plan 9.  Students
don't have to allocate any extra hardware or even configure a VM.
It's small and simple enough that we can cover all the major elements
of it as well as the general principles in one term.  But they're able
to get some exposure to the internals of a real system and not just
something created for illustrative purposes.

With the ubiquity of VMs these days, a good argument could be
made for using Plan 9 in a VM for the course.  Maybe someday
I'll look at adding Plan 9 chapters to the book, but at least for now,
I'm finding Inferno works quite well.

BLS

Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Andre Wingor]

On 12/29/17, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I'll look at adding Plan 9 chapters to the book, but at least for now,
> I'm finding Inferno works quite well.

Well, that is right, but not works yet

I'm a longtime admirer of the creativity of people from Bell Labs and
when there is an opportunity I try to study, use and promote Plan9 and
Inferno
For example, I did the version of Inferno for vending machines.
Unfortunately the company chose Linux
I don't understand why there is still no Inferno for smartphones, it
was sharpened for such devices

Lack of powerful integrated development tools is the main drawback.
Folks need IDE. Like VS Code. Or Anacode.
And also ready-made live distributions for launching from USB and
installing on a desktop with simple copying without admins privileges.

Now I have not even been able to install the Inferno on Win10x64. I'm
not admin on public terminal. I have no time and power to update and
fix it. I'm refugees.

I would very much like to see better times for both axes. So far they
are only donors of global and genius ideas and technologies

WBR
--
http://andr.ru

Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[James A. Robinson]

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Some folks did put Inferno onto an Android phone:

https://bluishcoder.co.nz/2012/06/11/building-inferno-os-for-android-phones.html

I think part of what drives the directions many companies
take is how easy it is to bring new people on board to do
the development.  It's probably quite easy to bring in people
to program on a Linux based platform, easier than bringing
people in to learn an OS they probably haven't even heard
of.

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 3:37 AM, Andre Wingor <andrewingor@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/29/17, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> ​
>
> ​[...]
> I don't understand why there is still no Inferno for smartphones, it
> ​​
> was sharpened for such devices
> ​ [...]​
>
> ​​

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Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Andre Wingor]

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On Saturday, December 30, 2017, James A. Robinson <jim.robinson@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Some folks did put Inferno onto an Android phone:
>

On virtual (minix?) machine into Intel crystal ...
  ..installed Linux kernel...
    ...on which installed Android VM
      ... on which installed 9P....
        ... on which installed Inferno OS (also VM)

It reminds of some child fairy tale
I'm happy to use android emulators x86 and zx80 with old zeus
I always have the opportunity to show to rookie the old school features,
it's great
I can experiment or learn

But for regular work is no way

to program on a Linux based platform, easier than bringing
> people in to learn an OS they probably haven't even heard
> of.
>

Haven't even heard?
Do you think that few people have heard about Bell Labs?
Almost everything. Read about and try about.

But every time when a new hands tries to take it and use it this is not
ready!
Programming on Linux is not at all like programming on Android, but it
did't stop the Android.
It's not because in Java, it because released powerful IDE and SDK

Now there is no diff what the language, they are created for almost every
big project.
And virtual machine too. Inferno is compact and beauty, it deserves to be
the basis

WBR
--
http://andr.ru

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Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Rui Carmo]

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That reminds me. Weren’t there some Inferno ports for micro controllers, along the lines of the Arduino variants or their industrial counterparts?

R.

> On 30 Dec 2017, at 13:41, James A. Robinson <jim.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Some folks did put Inferno onto an Android phone:
> 
> https://bluishcoder.co.nz/2012/06/11/building-inferno-os-for-android-phones.html
> 
> I think part of what drives the directions many companies
> take is how easy it is to bring new people on board to do
> the development.  It's probably quite easy to bring in people
> to program on a Linux based platform, easier than bringing
> people in to learn an OS they probably haven't even heard
> of.
> 
>> On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 3:37 AM, Andre Wingor <andrewingor@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/29/17, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> ​
>> ​[...] I don't understand why there is still no Inferno for smartphones, it
>> ​​was sharpened for such devices​ [...]​
> ​​ 

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Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Andre Wingor]

On 12/30/17, Rui Carmo <rui.carmo@gmail.com> wrote:
> That reminds me. Weren’t there some Inferno ports for micro controllers,

Until now I did not have a need for this, so I do not know.
But often there is a need for a compact live VM with a ready OS that
must be run on a public terminal. This is a problem. Live USB I can
not load to the terminal, it forbidden. I found only Puppy Linux in
the Virtual Box, but it works very slowly.

I many times used Inferno on the desktop in the past, but I had
FreeBSD. It was usability. And here on Windows10x64 now the emu don't
start. It's a pity.

A modern OS to become popular should have a Live USB and ready-made
assemblies for almost everything. I'm sorry that Inferno does not have
a power now.

-- 
http://andr.ru

Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Brian L. Stuart]

On Sat, 12/30/17, Andre Wingor <andrewingor@gmail.com> wrote:
> And also ready-made live distributions for launching from USB and
> installing on a desktop with simple copying
> without admins privileges.

I haven't thought about anything along those lines with the
hosted versions, but a while back I did start putting together
a bootable live CD running natively.  Graphics were limited
to standard VGA (640x480x16 IIRC) and I ran out of momentum
when messing around with Ethernet drivers on older laptops.

For a hosted version, as long as you only targeted various
Unices, you could probably have a shell script that figured
out which emu to run based on the output of uname.

BLS

Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Brian L. Stuart]

On Fri, 12/29/17, G B <g_patrickb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I used Inferno from bitbucket.org but wasn't able to build
> on FreeBSD 11.x/amd64 so I just reverted back to FreeBSD
> 9.3/i386.  But I may try to build using 11.1/i386 with
> gcc.  I'll have to use KVM on OpenIndiana to try it
> though since I don't have a spare physical machine at
> the moment.

Don't go to any trouble on my account.  I'm at the same point
I usually am when getting ready to teach my winter term OS
course.  I've got it built, but without the X11 support on my
FreeBSD machine.  It does build and run on our Linux cluster
with the X11 support though, so I can at least demonstrate
it to the students there.

And for the record, the fix to the missing FPxxx constants
was to copy over the defines from the MacOSX version of
the lib9.h file.

I had given some thought to adding amd64 support in at
least the hosted versions, but as usual the round tuits have
been in short supply.

BLS

Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Bakul Shah]

On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:11:22 +0000 "Brian L. Stuart" <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Brian L. Stuart writes:
> On Fri, 12/29/17, G B <g_patrickb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I used Inferno from bitbucket.org but wasn't able to build
> > on FreeBSD 11.x/amd64 so I just reverted back to FreeBSD
> > 9.3/i386.=C2=A0 But I may try to build using 11.1/i386 with
> > gcc.=C2=A0 I'll have to use KVM on OpenIndiana to try it
> > though since I don't have a spare physical machine at
> > the moment.
> 
> Don't go to any trouble on my account.  I'm at the same point
> I usually am when getting ready to teach my winter term OS
> course. 

Why teach about Inferno? Just curious.

[9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[G B]

I used Inferno from bitbucket.org but wasn't able to build on FreeBSD 11.x/amd64 so I just reverted back to FreeBSD 9.3/i386.? But I may try to build using 11.1/i386 with gcc.? I'll have to use KVM on OpenIndiana to try it though since I don't have a spare physical machine at the moment.
 

    On Thursday, December 28, 2017 2:29 PM, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart at bellsouth.net> wrote:
 

 Alexander Kapshuk wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> Which version of FreeBSD did you use, and did you use the
>> Inferno on bitbucket?? I'm finding it a long way from building
>> out of the box there these days.
> 
> While not a FreeBSD user, the bitbucket repository is:
> grep bitbucket ~/inferno-os/.hg/hgrc
> default = https://bitbucket.org/inferno-os/inferno-os
> 
> Care to elaborate a bit more on what sort of trouble you're having
> building Inferno on your system?
 
I'm using FreeBSD 11.1.? Things have changed a little since
they switched from gcc to clang.? I'm also running on an am64
install.

First, I had to rebuild mk.? The supplied binary expected the
libc shared library to be named libc.6.so, but the one present
on the system is just libc.so.? In doing that, I found there was
no setfcr-FreeBSD-386 source file.? Copying the Linux one
made it possible to build lib9.? Now I'm fighting with the floating
point stuff.? None of the FPxxxx constants are found.? I seem
to remember running into the same thing last year and did
eventually sort it out.? The other problem then was that a
couple of the X libraries weren't part of the 32-bit support
and I could only build emu-g.

BLS

   
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Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Brian L. Stuart]

Alexander Kapshuk wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> Which version of FreeBSD did you use, and did you use the
>> Inferno on bitbucket?  I'm finding it a long way from building
>> out of the box there these days.
> 
> While not a FreeBSD user, the bitbucket repository is:
> grep bitbucket ~/inferno-os/.hg/hgrc
> default = https://bitbucket.org/inferno-os/inferno-os
> 
> Care to elaborate a bit more on what sort of trouble you're having
> building Inferno on your system?
 
I'm using FreeBSD 11.1.  Things have changed a little since
they switched from gcc to clang.  I'm also running on an am64
install.

First, I had to rebuild mk.  The supplied binary expected the
libc shared library to be named libc.6.so, but the one present
on the system is just libc.so.  In doing that, I found there was
no setfcr-FreeBSD-386 source file.  Copying the Linux one
made it possible to build lib9.  Now I'm fighting with the floating
point stuff.  None of the FPxxxx constants are found.  I seem
to remember running into the same thing last year and did
eventually sort it out.  The other problem then was that a
couple of the X libraries weren't part of the 32-bit support
and I could only build emu-g.

BLS

Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Brian L. Stuart]

On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 7:13 PM, G B <g_patrickb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I've installed Inferno on FreeBSD but how do you build it for Plan 9?  The
> makemk.sh file and without looking, I think the mkconfig file too, reference
> gcc.  And the makemk.sh has /bin/sh.  Do I have to install a Bourne or Korn
> shell plus gcc from contrib to compile?

Which version of FreeBSD did you use, and did you use the
Inferno on bitbucket?  I'm finding it a long way from building
out of the box there these days.

BLS

Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Alexander Kapshuk]

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Brian L. Stuart <blstuart@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 7:13 PM, G B <g_patrickb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I've installed Inferno on FreeBSD but how do you build it for Plan 9?  The
>> makemk.sh file and without looking, I think the mkconfig file too, reference
>> gcc.  And the makemk.sh has /bin/sh.  Do I have to install a Bourne or Korn
>> shell plus gcc from contrib to compile?
>
> Which version of FreeBSD did you use, and did you use the
> Inferno on bitbucket?  I'm finding it a long way from building
> out of the box there these days.
>
> BLS
>

While not a FreeBSD user, the bitbucket repository is:
grep bitbucket ~/inferno-os/.hg/hgrc
default = https://bitbucket.org/inferno-os/inferno-os

Care to elaborate a bit more on what sort of trouble you're having
building Inferno on your system?

[9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[G B]

I've installed Inferno on FreeBSD but how do you build it for Plan 9?? The makemk.sh file and without looking, I think the mkconfig file too, reference gcc.? And the makemk.sh has /bin/sh.? Do I have to install a Bourne or Korn shell plus gcc from contrib to compile?
Thanks.

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Re: [9fans] Inferno on Plan9

[Alexander Kapshuk]

On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 7:13 PM, G B <g_patrickb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I've installed Inferno on FreeBSD but how do you build it for Plan 9?  The
> makemk.sh file and without looking, I think the mkconfig file too, reference
> gcc.  And the makemk.sh has /bin/sh.  Do I have to install a Bourne or Korn
> shell plus gcc from contrib to compile?
>
> Thanks.
>

No need to run makemk.sh on Plan9. See INSTALL for details:
Quote:
On Plan 9, of course, the host system's normal version of  mk should
be adequate.

[9fans] inferno on plan9

[mattmobile]

A fresh install of inferno on a fairly recent plan9

term% emu
; wm/wm
attachwindow: cannot handle window depth specifier    x8r8g8b8 
wmlib: can't allocate Display: initdisplay: /dev/draw/new: '/usr/maht/inferno/dev/draw/new' does not exist
; 


I've tried various binds (though I can't remember which ones =) to no avail

matt

Re: [9fans] inferno on plan9

[quanstro]

assuming that the message fits the problem, x8r8g8b8 is not a depth specifier.  
8, 16, 18i, 24, 32 are. see vga(1).

- erik

On Mon May 29 13:47:37 CDT 2006, mattmobile@proweb.co.uk wrote:
> 
> A fresh install of inferno on a fairly recent plan9
> 
> term% emu
> ; wm/wm
> attachwindow: cannot handle window depth specifier    x8r8g8b8 
> wmlib: can't allocate Display: initdisplay: /dev/draw/new: '/usr/maht/inferno/dev/draw/new' does not exist
> ; 
> 
> 
> I've tried various binds (though I can't remember which ones =) to no avail
> 
> matt

Re: [9fans] inferno on plan9

[Gabriel Ivanes]

On 5/29/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> assuming that the message fits the problem, x8r8g8b8 is not a depth specifier.
> 8, 16, 18i, 24, 32 are. see vga(1).
>
> - erik
>
> On Mon May 29 13:47:37 CDT 2006, mattmobile@proweb.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > A fresh install of inferno on a fairly recent plan9
> >
> > term% emu
> > ; wm/wm
> > attachwindow: cannot handle window depth specifier    x8r8g8b8
> > wmlib: can't allocate Display: initdisplay: /dev/draw/new: '/usr/maht/inferno/dev/draw/new' does not exist
> > ;
> >
> >
> > I've tried various binds (though I can't remember which ones =) to no avail
> >
> > matt
>

I have the same error. So i tried this (in the tip o' the day) for charon :


#!/bin/rc

rfork n

if(! test -f /dev/draw/new){
	bind -a '#i' /dev
}

exec /usr/inferno/Plan9/$objtype/bin/emu -G -I -c1 /dis/sh.dis -c '
	mount -bc {mntgen} /mnt
	bind -c ''#U*'' /n/local
	bind -c ''#₪'' /srv
	rioimport {
		charon -buttons plain -framework all,exit $* > /dev/null >[2=1]
		echo halt > /dev/sysctl
	} $*
' $*

Substitute wm/wm to charon for inferno. I know it's just a workaround,
wihout explaining it more thant that, but it's work.


Gab
-- 
"I know no way of judging the future but by the past."
     Patrick Henry

"You can never plan the future by the past."
     Edmund Burke

Re: [9fans] inferno on plan9

[Charles Forsyth]

it's an old oversight in /emu/Plan9/win.c, that didn't take into
account some later changes to the Plan 9 window system.
i noticed it about a month ago, when revisiting
the code, and have (i think) repaired it here,
and it should be made available shortly.
if you need it desperately, let me know and i'll email it.