From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:51:23 -0600 Message-ID: From: Blake McBride To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11332dbcfd5f9504ed9657cf Subject: Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9 Topicbox-Message-UUID: 9bae6b64-ead8-11e9-9d60-3106f5b1d025 --001a11332dbcfd5f9504ed9657cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I, respectfully, disagree. The end purpose of any OS, platform, or program is to perform some sort of function. That end function is called an app. An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The underlying environment (including tools) determines the available facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app. Unix brings far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the construction and operation of an app. The new ideas embodied in Plan-9 bring considerable enhancements to such an environment. If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the value of Plan-9? Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool ideas with no end or purpose in mind? Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence F=E1bi=E1n wrote= : > If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java= , > I will fight against it till my dying breath. > > Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps. > Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. I= f > you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device > drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks tha= t > they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this. > > > 2013/12/15 Blake McBride > >> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol wrote: >> >>> ..... The lack of a >>> web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability >>> limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal >>> with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and >>> cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. Thanks to Russ Cox >>> for P9P! >> >> .... >>> >> >> This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make. I read Rob >> Pike's comments at: >> >> http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/ >> >> and it really got me thinking. What a great idea he talked about! I >> think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea. >> >> Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic. The better >> approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share= . >> Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the >> technical arena). (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largel= y >> to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the >> difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...) >> >> I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. The first was lack of >> mind-share (crowd acceptance). It is very hard to compete with Windows = & >> Linux. The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functio= nal >> browser. >> >> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 >> has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best >> ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think = the >> best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and >> availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I underst= and >> that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and >> limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction. Plan-9 >> proved those ideas in an ideal environment. Just like what Smalltalk di= d >> to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its >> ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing >> technology like Linux. >> >> Just some thoughts. >> >> Blake McBride >> >> >> > --001a11332dbcfd5f9504ed9657cf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I, respectfully, disagree. =A0The end purpose of any OS, p= latform, or program is to perform some sort of function. =A0That end functi= on is called an app. =A0An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb us= er. The underlying environment (including tools) determines the available f= acilities a programmer has in order to construct said app. =A0Unix brings f= ar, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the const= ruction and operation of an app. =A0The new ideas embodied in Plan-9 bring = considerable enhancements to such an environment.

If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, w= hat is the value of Plan-9? =A0Am I just going to spend all day playing wit= h the cool ideas with no end or purpose in mind? =A0

Blake



On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence F=E1bi=E1n <begn= oc@gmail.com> wrote:
If bringing Plan 9 to the m= asses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java, I will fight against it til= l my dying breath.

Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use= apps. Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate th= at. If you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write= device drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML fol= ks that they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this.

2013/12/15 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.= name>
On S= un, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol <trebol55555@aol.com> = wrote:
..... =A0The lack of a
web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. =A0Thanks to Russ Cox for= P9P!=A0
....

This is a great segue into a point= I was hoping to make. =A0I read Rob Pike's comments at:

=

and it really got me thinking. =A0What a great idea he = talked about! =A0I think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea.
=

Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic.= =A0The better approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass o= f mind-share. =A0Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-sha= re (in the technical arena). =A0(Of course Windows has much more mind-share= do largely to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't und= erstand the difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the mar= ket...) =A0

I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. =A0The fir= st was lack of mind-share (crowd acceptance). =A0It is very hard to compete= with Windows & Linux. =A0The second was lack of support for a huge nee= d - a fully functional browser.=A0

In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd a= ll agree that Plan-9 has no real future. =A0On the other hand, I believe th= at some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the = future. =A0I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wid= e-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kern= el. =A0I understand that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be comprom= ises and limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction. = =A0Plan-9 proved those ideas in an ideal environment. =A0Just like what Sma= lltalk did to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can b= ring its ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to exis= ting technology like Linux.

Just some thoughts.
=

Blake McBride




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