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Sun, 12 May 2024 22:16:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a59:1d15:0:b0:464:8670:f713 with HTTP; Sun, 12 May 2024 22:16:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <60ddb6ec-6c01-404f-9598-c62f0dbeea60@posixcafe.org> References: <7eb7bd48-c6c1-4649-8c7b-000df046fed1@posixcafe.org> <17155723490.63cF0a1BB.31755@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <60ddb6ec-6c01-404f-9598-c62f0dbeea60@posixcafe.org> From: clinton Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 14:46:40 +0930 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front) To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00000000000091e19406184efd40 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: ff63802e-10e7-11ef-b193-c89c6fca2845 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UY2YxMjhmYTk1NWI4YWFmYy1NYjIyZDY2OGZhYzFkNmNiMjE4OTlh?= =?UTF-8?B?NDIwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mb22d668fac1d6cb21899a420:1:_iamRUM4JibS0olpke8ZmTMezaSH3LKVSL8QKgBfztQ --00000000000091e19406184efd40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some excellent advice so far I have to say. A reasonable assumption is that I am at least a linux user (entirely accurate, I installed slackware from floppies a long time ago when the world was new and 486es were still moderately expensive). Would a BASIC interpreter count as an operating system I wonder? Well no matter, I don't have to live with one these days. Anyway, a nice pathway from linux to a plan9 of some description is quite helpful and I am very thankful. I should be rather careful with that DES implementation in 9legacy, is it the 1970s version or 3DES? Quite shocked if it is the former. Some very good advice indeed, thanks to everyone! I look forward to blundering around with 9front too I must say. On Monday, May 13, 2024, Jacob Moody wrote: > On 5/12/24 22:52, ibrahim via 9fans wrote: > > On Monday, 13 May 2024, at 5:09 AM, Jacob Moody wrote: > >> When people suggest tossing that all out for a minimally patched 4e, I > think some people rightfully feel a bit annoyed. That's a lot of baby that > goes out with that bathwater. > > > > It's Davids decission what he includes as patches for the 4th edition > but I would toss everything out of 9legacy which isn't part of the 4th > edition or contributed by the team members at Bell Labs from their archiv= es > as enhancements. > > > > The reasoning is simple : p9f owns the rights for the final release and > Nokia has made this release available under a MIT license. Every one who > uses plan9 not only to toy around or his/her personal use but also as a > system which he/she distributes like I do can't afford risks with code > integrated from sources like 9front. There are some libraries taken from > 9front derived from other open source projects like freetype (truetype) > where copyright notices are absent and this isn't the only library > > where in code comments the sources are named but the original copyright > notices are absent. > > > > plan9 as represented by p9f has a clear license all parts which are not > MIT licensed are marked as such but code back ported from other forks like > 9front contain code where I have doubts if those are really under an MIT > license as you state in your documentation cause deriving from a different > license or taking large amounts of code doesn't remove viral licenses like > LGPL or GPL. > > If you have a list of libraries that you feel do not represent their > license providence by /lib/legal/NOTICE in our 9front tree, let me know we > should probably get that updated. > Our libttf is not derived from freetype as I understand it. > > > > > It would be in the interest of plan9 and all who professionally use it > in embedded systems or as a distributed operating system to keep suspicio= us > code out of the 9legacy CD. If really necessary to provide such > contributions or back ports I wouldn't place them in the system folders b= ut > as it was in the past in contrib folders for additional download. The ris= ks > to infect a clearly licensed system gifted by Nokia to all of us to make > best use of it for free commercial private embedded ... > > solutions are to high and I would really prefer it when nothing from > forks like 9front would take its way into the 9legacy CD ROM which is > defined as : > > > > Plan 9 archives, reference releases of Plan 9. > > > > 9legacy, Plan 9 with many useful patches applied. Download page > has an > > installation CD image including 386, amd64, and arm kernels and > binaries; > > a bootable USB image for 386; a bootable SD card image for > Raspberry Pi; > > and virtual disk images for QEMU and GCE. > > > > The 4th Edition distribution from Bell Labs: > > live CD/install CD/USB image, installation notes, > > browse the source, additional software > > Are you implying that a majority of users are using Plan9 in a commercial > setting? That seems a bit absurd. > For personal use I think these license issues (if they do even exist) are > of no concern. I think you are greatly > exaggerating the possible issue here for your average user. > > > > > I respect your fork 9front but I won't and can't use it. 9front isn't > plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with patches for t= he > files from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken from open source > projects by copy and paste. The moment I and others who use plan9 for > distribution or embed it on systems we have to be absolutely sure about t= he > sources of the code. I can trust Bell Labs, Nokia, p9f but I won't trust > some guys who toy around with their fork of plan9. The moment > > FSF or another organisation starts to suit me because they recognized > that some guy at any forked system has copy pasted code from a viral > licensed project I am the one who has to take the consequences. > > Again, I think in your situation of distributing hardware with plan 9 or > whatever, then it makes sense to do whatever your lawyer says. > I think advising against using 9front for every user on these grounds > though is misleading at best. > > > > > The first thing I am doing after downloading an iso from 9 legacy is to > remove all files which were not part of the final plan9 release. The seco= nd > thing I have always to do is removing all patches from the iso which came > from sources I can't be sure if they really followed licensing rules. The > third thing I have to do before distributing my fork of plan9 is to remove > fonts ghostscript diff page and other parts of the system which would > infect the distribution media to make sure the created > > system is not depending on viral licensed code. > > Do you also remove the Lucida and printer fonts? These were released as > part of the original source but have interesting claims as to the ability > to redistribute them. > Do you also strip out the parts of ape that include ancient GNU utilities? > Are you running your system without a diff and patch? > > > > > My fork isn't the only one which gets distributed. I'm sure there exist > millions of devices with plan9 integrated without anyone noticing except > for those who look into the documentation where the MIT licensed copyright > is placed. > > > > If people from forks like 9front are talking about numbers of their > users I always have to laugh. My fork is right now used by about 500 peop= le > per semester more users. And be assured this is an unimportant number. > > And Java runs on a billion devices. > > > > > Not a single developer who uses plan9 for distributed systems, > commercial products will dare to use a system like 9front as the sources. > The reason is quite simple : > > > > You ignore copyrights as you please and distributed 9front under an MIT > license long before Nokia as the owner of it decided to do so. You did th= at > at a time when plan9 was placed under GPL. > > > > 9front is a fork your fork I respect your work. But all your commits and > enhancements are absolutly useless for people who intend or use plan9 not > only to play around with this system but make professional use of it. The > first thing such people have to check is the way you handle licenses. >=20 > I'm quite curious as to your definition of "professional" in one where > none of the work done by 9front would be seen as beneficial. > I'm glad you expanded upon this, I think its important context to have for > why you didn't suggest 9front to our new user here. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Mb22d6= 68fac1d6cb21899a420 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --00000000000091e19406184efd40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some excellent advice so far I have to say. A reasonable assump= tion is that I am at least a linux user (entirely accurate, I installed sla= ckware from floppies a long time ago when the world was new and 486es were = still moderately expensive). Would a BASIC interpreter count as an operatin= g system I wonder? Well no matter, I don't have to live with one these = days. Anyway, a nice pathway from linux to a plan9 of some description is q= uite helpful and I am very thankful. I should be rather careful with that D= ES implementation in 9legacy, is it the 1970s version or 3DES? Quite shocke= d if it is the former. Some very good advice indeed, thanks to everyone!I look forward to blundering around with 9front too I must say.

On Monday, May 13, 2024, Jacob Moody <moody@posixcafe.org> wrote:
On 5/12/24 22:52, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
> On Monday, 13 May 2024, at 5:09 AM, Jacob Moody wrote:
>> When people suggest tossing that all out for a minimally patched 4= e, I think some people rightfully feel a bit annoyed. That's a lot of b= aby that goes out with that bathwater.
>
> It's Davids decission what he includes as patches for the 4th edit= ion but I would toss everything out of 9legacy which isn't part of the = 4th edition or contributed by the team members at Bell Labs from their arch= ives as enhancements.
>
> The reasoning is simple : p9f owns the rights for the final release an= d Nokia has made this release available under a MIT license. Every one who = uses plan9 not only to toy around or his/her personal use but also as a sys= tem which he/she distributes like I do can't afford risks with code int= egrated from sources like 9front. There are some libraries taken from 9fron= t derived from other open source projects like freetype (truetype) where co= pyright notices are absent and this isn't the only library
> where in code comments the sources are named but the original copyrigh= t notices are absent.
>
> plan9 as represented by p9f has a clear license all parts which are no= t MIT licensed are marked as such but code back ported from other forks lik= e 9front contain code where I have doubts if those are really under an MIT = license as you state in your documentation cause deriving from a different = license or taking large amounts of code doesn't remove viral licenses l= ike LGPL or GPL.

If you have a list of libraries that you feel do not represent their licens= e providence by /lib/legal/NOTICE in our 9front tree, let me know we should= probably get that updated.
Our libttf is not derived from freetype as I understand it.

>
> It would be in the interest of plan9 and all who professionally use it= in embedded systems or as a distributed operating system to keep suspiciou= s code out of the 9legacy CD. If really necessary to provide such contribut= ions or back ports I wouldn't place them in the system folders but as i= t was in the past in contrib folders for additional download. The risks to = infect a clearly licensed system gifted by Nokia to all of us to make best = use of it for free commercial private embedded ...
> solutions are to high and I would really prefer it when nothing from f= orks like 9front would take its way into the 9legacy CD ROM which is define= d as :
>
>          Plan 9 archives, refe= rence releases of Plan 9.
>        
>          9legacy, Plan 9 with = many useful patches applied. Download page has an
>          installation CD image= including 386, amd64, and arm kernels and binaries;
>          a bootable USB image = for 386; a bootable SD card image for Raspberry Pi;
>          and virtual disk imag= es for QEMU and GCE.
>        
>          The 4th Edition distr= ibution from Bell Labs:
>          live CD/install CD/US= B image, installation notes,
>          browse the source, ad= ditional software

Are you implying that a majority of users are using Plan9 in a commercial s= etting? That seems a bit absurd.
For personal use I think these license issues (if they do even exist) are o= f no concern. I think you are greatly
exaggerating the possible issue here for your average user.

>
> I respect your fork 9front but I won't and can't use it. 9fron= t isn't plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with pat= ches for the files from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken f= rom open source projects by copy and paste. The moment I and others who use= plan9 for distribution or embed it on systems we have to be absolutely sur= e about the sources of the code. I can trust Bell Labs, Nokia, p9f but I wo= n't trust some guys who toy around with their fork of plan9. The moment=
> FSF or another organisation starts to suit me because they recognized = that some guy at any forked system has copy pasted code from a viral licens= ed project I am the one who has to take the consequences.

Again, I think in your situation of distributing hardware with plan 9 or wh= atever, then it makes sense to do whatever your lawyer says.
I think advising against using 9front for every user on these grounds thoug= h is misleading at best.

>
> The first thing I am doing after downloading an iso from 9 legacy is t= o remove all files which were not part of the final plan9 release. The seco= nd thing I have always to do is removing all patches from the iso which cam= e from sources I can't be sure if they really followed licensing rules.= The third thing I have to do before distributing my fork of plan9 is to re= move fonts ghostscript diff page and other parts of the system which would = infect the distribution media to make sure the created
> system is not depending on viral licensed code.

Do you also remove the Lucida and printer fonts? These were released as par= t of the original source but have interesting claims as to the ability to r= edistribute them.
Do you also strip out the parts of ape that include ancient GNU utilities? = Are you running your system without a diff and patch?

>
> My fork isn't the only one which gets distributed. I'm sure th= ere exist millions of devices with plan9 integrated without anyone noticing= except for those who look into the documentation where the MIT licensed co= pyright is placed.
>
> If people from forks like 9front are talking about numbers of their us= ers I always have to laugh. My fork is right now used by about 500 people p= er semester more users. And be assured this is an unimportant number.
=
And Java runs on a billion devices.

>
> Not a single developer who uses plan9 for distributed systems, commerc= ial products will dare to use a system like 9front as the sources. The reas= on is quite simple :
>
> You ignore copyrights as you please and distributed 9front under an MI= T license long before Nokia as the owner of it decided to do so. You did th= at at a time when plan9 was placed under GPL.
>
> 9front is a fork your fork I respect your work. But all your commits a= nd enhancements are absolutly useless for people who intend or use plan9 no= t only  to play around with this system but make professional use of i= t. The first thing such people have to check is the way you handle licenses= .

I'm quite curious as to your definition of "professional" in = one where none of the work done by 9front would be seen as beneficial.
I'm glad you expanded upon this, I think its important context to have = for why you didn't suggest 9front to our new user here.

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