* [9fans] OT: What linux has become @ 2014-08-13 4:53 Aharon Robbins 2014-08-13 5:41 ` Eris Discordia ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Aharon Robbins @ 2014-08-13 4:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html Someone should turn this guy on to Plan 9. :-) Arnold ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become 2014-08-13 4:53 [9fans] OT: What linux has become Aharon Robbins @ 2014-08-13 5:41 ` Eris Discordia 2014-08-13 7:57 ` cam 2014-08-13 8:02 ` dante 2 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Eris Discordia @ 2014-08-13 5:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs That's mainly interpersonal politics. Poettering probably pounded him too hard one time. He isn't giving a technical refutation of systemd and that's actually very well possible. Why shouldn't someone turn the ranter to LFS instead? Someone with 20 years of so-called loyalty and evangelism of Debian would surely know the horrors of Debian's SysV init script maze and should be able to roll his own free of all distro nastiness. On 08/13/2014 04:53 AM, Aharon Robbins wrote: > http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html > > Someone should turn this guy on to Plan 9. :-) > > Arnold > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become 2014-08-13 4:53 [9fans] OT: What linux has become Aharon Robbins 2014-08-13 5:41 ` Eris Discordia @ 2014-08-13 7:57 ` cam 2014-08-13 8:02 ` dante 2 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: cam @ 2014-08-13 7:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html just when you think a given operating systems would not be bastardized any further, some genius fucks it to the next level. launchd/smf and a webserver as process 1... baffling, this is. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become 2014-08-13 4:53 [9fans] OT: What linux has become Aharon Robbins 2014-08-13 5:41 ` Eris Discordia 2014-08-13 7:57 ` cam @ 2014-08-13 8:02 ` dante 2014-08-13 10:01 ` tlaronde 2 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: dante @ 2014-08-13 8:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs This is a valid observation, although as everything that has to do with architecture, hard to prove. (Don't use the P-word, that's reserved for Plato and Nietzsche.) I also have the impression that the trend set by the original Unix architecture (small, one-job components, generic interfaces) is nowadays replaced in many areas with integrated solutions ("frameworks") that provide non-separable components and sometimes redundant interfaces. For systemd, according to Wikipedia, it provides: - socket *and* d-bus interfaces - a cron-like scheduler - a logging facility, but also access to syslogd - udev, which was pretty complex itself (frustrating for me: useless for my setup, had to learn it without having any curiosity/interest) - etc. WHY? The trend can also be seen in other areas. Take Spring for Java: gathers together components that were implemented separately long time ago. Or even the iOS aps: there is no meaningful IPC there. One reason why I try to take what I can from Plan9 is that I profoundly mistrust systems that I cannot understand due to their size/bloat. Arnold, thanks for the food for the mind :-). Cheers, Dante On 13.08.2014 06:53, Aharon Robbins wrote: > http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html > > Someone should turn this guy on to Plan 9. :-) > > Arnold ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become 2014-08-13 8:02 ` dante @ 2014-08-13 10:01 ` tlaronde 2014-08-13 10:11 ` hiro 2014-08-13 16:24 ` lucio 0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2014-08-13 10:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:02:46AM +0200, dante wrote: > >[...] > I also have the impression that the trend set by the original Unix > architecture (small, one-job components, generic interfaces) > is nowadays replaced in many areas with integrated solutions > ("frameworks") that provide non-separable components > and sometimes redundant interfaces. > >[...] > One reason why I try to take what I can from Plan9 is that I profoundly > mistrust systems that I cannot understand due to their size/bloat. > And the more "curious" (perhaps not...) is that the "trend" is on "security", while I fail to see how there can be any security when the software is not "maintenable" (from french : "tenir en main" i.e. be able to direct and keep in one's hand). There is a Borges short story about a library where one supposes that every text possible is kept, hence if "the" solution about the "why" is able to be expressed, "the" solution is for sure among the books. Problem : it is not sure that one reading it will for sure understand that this is "the" solution; and the time to read everything in order to find it exceeds largely one's life time. Consequence : this "ideal" solution is absolutely useless. Software nowadays seems like this : the time it takes to install and to start is time lost for working with (and this may amount to some time); the time to understand the thing or to debug it, is larger than an average life time, and is not possible for an average human. Security by threat (for example in "free" software): "one" can look at the code. Yes... Try to find a needle in a hay stack... And these beasts are Medusa: one look at the sources, and you're changed to stone by fear. There was also a comical story from a past artist about the "improvements". The propaganda had made advertising for the "perfect" washing powder. Problem: when the next one came out, it begun difficult to explain that it was more than the previous perfection, unless the very same vendor admitted the swindle... So the advertising was explaining that by using the "new" improved washing powder, it was even able to wash as perfectly as the old one, even if one made knots with the clothes to "hide" the dirt inside (probably because the "old" washing powder was using its big blue eyes to see the dirt, while the "new" was using its nose). Conclusion: one had the same result as before with the "improved" version, except it took time to make the supplementary knots...and a week to try to undo them after they spent some hours in the water... Are there still human beings believing that "progress" is a function of chronology: the newer, the better? -- Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ http://www.renaissance-francaise.fr/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become 2014-08-13 10:01 ` tlaronde @ 2014-08-13 10:11 ` hiro 2014-08-13 16:24 ` lucio 1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2014-08-13 10:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs you know where to get it, etc... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] OT: What linux has become 2014-08-13 10:01 ` tlaronde 2014-08-13 10:11 ` hiro @ 2014-08-13 16:24 ` lucio 1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2014-08-13 16:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Are there still human beings believing that "progress" is a function > of chronology: the newer, the better? I think there are many who believe that everything they find stressful in the present will be taken care of in the next technological iteration. Lucio. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2014-08-13 16:24 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2014-08-13 4:53 [9fans] OT: What linux has become Aharon Robbins 2014-08-13 5:41 ` Eris Discordia 2014-08-13 7:57 ` cam 2014-08-13 8:02 ` dante 2014-08-13 10:01 ` tlaronde 2014-08-13 10:11 ` hiro 2014-08-13 16:24 ` lucio
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