From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14280 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2022 22:43:39 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2022 22:43:39 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B29E246EC for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 17:43:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMaff4663e2d5388dab6291a84.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 288DA13ADD5E; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 17:43:38 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to :message-id:date:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id:list-post :list-subscribe:reply-to:subject:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh= 50SufpyhdL8un5OvkCK4UlgiWzVy4mXgbvwIJO6Ejw4=; b=fda3jUqBqIxYfvnV tUHzlIk/Dt9uptUWFhfOI/AdTLio4sRcyQ8s8YS9Su7ItDSVBT0212MA3CFsQFYy TPGgV944iavBPUzvvRpo8GGsuuIynJk223PK0yN79Nket1gRR/e7eIgxfKHJql3r uTd6iULZfj//dh+eH7PeKCac6/A= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Message-Id: <16433234120.28b5c.668468@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 17:43:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16433234121.Bf551.668468 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8dfe717c-7fc2-11ec-9d73-7999242d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYWZmNDY2M2UyZDUzODhkYWI2Mjkx?= =?UTF-8?B?YTg0Pg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: [9fans] licence question List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Maff4663e2d5388dab6291a84:1:XRH34x9KQgmgSLJQVEHZkw6vK0NiZt_yOCRr-VqJF9g --16433234121.Bf551.668468 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 17:43:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed that I can't distribute fonts and ghostscript as part of a plan9 = (9legacy, 9front) system due to their licensing terms.=20 Does anybody know about code, libraries, binaries, documentation present on= the latest 9legacy or 9front iso's which are outside the newly applied MIT= -licence ? Thanks in advance ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Maff46= 63e2d5388dab6291a84 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16433234121.Bf551.668468 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 17:43:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I noticed that I can't distribute fonts an= d ghostscript as part of a plan9 (9legacy, 9front) system due to their lice= nsing terms.

Does anybody know about code= , libraries, binaries, documentation present on the latest 9legacy or 9fron= t iso's which are outside the newly applied MIT-licence ?

Thanks in advance

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Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:48:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a59:ca31:0:b0:27d:32f:72ac with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:48:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16433234120.28b5c.668468@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433234120.28b5c.668468@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 23:48:09 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 36172a16-7fc3-11ec-aafa-eeaf171b19d4 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYTUzY2YxOGY5N2U5N2ZjM2M2NmVi?= =?UTF-8?B?ZWExPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Ma53cf18f97e97fc3c66ebea1:1:M-FSUiS7W80_IMBtmnUp8gA4sOLt4nEpEbpsr85nd28 no, as far as i know, just those B&H fonts in particular are non-free. i think the ghostscript code can be distributed without any issues. 9front policy is that all new code is MIT. On 1/27/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > I noticed that I can't distribute fonts and ghostscript as part of a plan9 > (9legacy, 9front) system due to their licensing terms. >=20 > Does anybody know about code, libraries, binaries, documentation present = on > the latest 9legacy or 9front iso's which are outside the newly applied > MIT-licence ? >=20 > Thanks in advance ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Ma53cf= 18f97e97fc3c66ebea1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20751 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2022 23:33:39 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2022 23:33:39 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F69025B8B for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:33:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMdd05931d4e2661b1a72664b6.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 1C15A13B3CC0; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:33:38 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=ZbaHqm9vBpZMGU1VLdPUODD6VFZiEa/sNAK87a+rt1s=; b=WZ4CQqQZegul 7iKSL+SRxW2VmVEepm9GSh6kxHKkEPBDW2hDvIfmw96O4hC4yhb7A44gNUscs4Yn XeTlR4+3NcTkr1cu2ugTfcchdysovKQSqBv9eJ5u0mB6xnhFo8aS8VxRJBpZLhOw HAcspDWl8ID45HY/tw6F1rJnHS2/vyY= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16433264120.eC396e.774221@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: References: <16433234120.28b5c.668468@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:33:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16433264121.1b89dBCC.774221 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8a5d31aa-7fc9-11ec-a482-7999242d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZGQwNTkzMWQ0ZTI2NjFiMWE3MjY2?= =?UTF-8?B?NGI2Pg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mdd05931d4e2661b1a72664b6:1:dD9VKXWe8onLXTOCDMMddrZng4SFZrUeDKK_svxb6Sg --16433264121.1b89dBCC.774221 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:33:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks hiro. Regarding ghostscript :=20 In plan9-2e this was written in README.Plan9 > Aladdin Ghostscript has been licensed to be included with the > release of Plan 9.=C2=A0 Minor changes were made to the sources to > accommodate a couple of restrictions in the APE library and to > produce Plan 9 output formats.=C2=A0 These changes are all conditioned > by > #ifdef Plan9 > and were made in December, 1994.=C2=A0 As well, the build was rearranged > to be driven by a Plan 9 mkfile. >=20 After Realease 4 the ghostscript version was updated and in the folder cmd/= gs/doc/public.html is part of the distribution and that isn't conforming to= the MIT licence. 3 2 Restrictions makes commerical use without a written l= icence from Aladdin imposible.=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mdd059= 31d4e2661b1a72664b6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16433264121.1b89dBCC.774221 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:33:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks hiro.

= Regarding ghostscript :

In plan9-2e this = was written in README.Plan9

Aladdin Ghostscript has been licensed to be included with the
release of Plan 9. Minor changes were made to the sour= ces to
accommodate a couple of restrictions in the APE libr= ary and to
produce Plan 9 output formats. These chang= es are all conditioned
by
#ifdef Plan9
and were made in December, 1994. As well, the build was r= earranged
to be driven by a Plan 9 mkfile.
=

After Realease 4 the ghostsc= ript version was updated and in the folder cmd/gs/doc/public.html is part o= f the distribution and that isn't conforming to the MIT licence. 3 2 Re= strictions makes commerical use without a written licence from Aladdin impo= sible.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:05:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a59:ca31:0:b0:27d:32f:72ac with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:05:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16433264120.eC396e.774221@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433234120.28b5c.668468@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433264120.eC396e.774221@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 01:05:53 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 12d50784-7fce-11ec-94ca-8153c2bf9e4d Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMGY3MDY2YTE1NWIyNDc0ZjVkMzBh?= =?UTF-8?B?ZDQ4Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M0f7066a155b2474f5d30ad48:1:Qg3aWZ0mePz39t9WrakrjWWLAqVClVJO-sWpASW-7T0 yes, but it's ok to distribute On 1/28/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > Thanks hiro. > > Regarding ghostscript : > > In plan9-2e this was written in README.Plan9 > >> Aladdin Ghostscript has been licensed to be included with the >> release of Plan 9.=C2=A0 Minor changes were made to the sources to >> accommodate a couple of restrictions in the APE library and to >> produce Plan 9 output formats.=C2=A0 These changes are all conditioned >> by >> #ifdef Plan9 >> and were made in December, 1994.=C2=A0 As well, the build was rearranged >> to be driven by a Plan 9 mkfile. >> >=20 > After Realease 4 the ghostscript version was updated and in the folder > cmd/gs/doc/public.html is part of the distribution and that isn't conform= ing > to the MIT licence. 3 2 Restrictions makes commerical use without a writt= en > licence from Aladdin imposible. >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M0f706= 6a155b2474f5d30ad48 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 31130 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2022 00:42:11 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Jan 2022 00:42:11 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDE02E4B8 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:42:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM217d6926bc7bec6f0010b6ab.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 7B01013B9EEA; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:42:10 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=bL4KZlXtEumgI7BEeC0K4xXPfnSLnbQHVC0rTH3bIBE=; b=V9jN52EoEzn4 ATeZk54zlabWw59S/yXOF/R1plWd6BVl9RADcrL1A+z75X107R9x998O68cwhKZo 3/t+l8XSY6ui2YXfnzGXFjyeVB5IAsx6OfEPDk7cnW8EqOx1cwyF/VyZGHn8KP73 Y0f+0iySKB9dfJOA7GYeOkj5oBgqPWk= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16433305240.859A78.94453@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: References: <16433234120.28b5c.668468@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433264120.eC396e.774221@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:42:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16433305241.ab514fE.94453 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1d53f76a-7fd3-11ec-9359-76a99134e1fa Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMjE3ZDY5MjZiYzdiZWM2ZjAwMTBi?= =?UTF-8?B?NmFiPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M217d6926bc7bec6f0010b6ab:1:LQvMB2_zyoJEGKmYDsdQThpou4GK_zAEZN7uF_3Vtfo --16433305241.ab514fE.94453 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:42:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm lucky cause I don't need ghostscript, page (depending on it) the fonts.= I'm using a framebuffer renderer instead of rio for my tiny kiosk version = of 9front.=20 My code depends on the bootloader, the drivers, kernelcode, libraries from = 9front. Especially the WiFi-drivers, usb support ramfs and loop-devices as = implemented by 9front and those are all MIT licenced as far as I understood. Do you have a recommended copyright notice which I can display or would you= prefer links to p9f, legacy9 and 9front while displaying the MIT licence. = My distribution will be closed source but I intend to share some parts with= the community. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M217d6= 926bc7bec6f0010b6ab Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16433305241.ab514fE.94453 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:42:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm lucky cause I don't need ghostscri= pt, page (depending on it) the fonts. I'm using a framebuffer renderer = instead of rio for my tiny kiosk version of 9front.

My code depends on the bootloader, the drivers, kernelcode, libr= aries from 9front. Especially the WiFi-drivers, usb support ramfs and loop-= devices as implemented by 9front and those are all MIT licenced as far as I= understood.

Do you have a recommended cop= yright notice which I can display or would you prefer links to p9f, legacy9= and 9front while displaying the MIT licence. My distribution will be close= d source but I intend to share some parts with the community.

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x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrvdehgdduvdeiucdltddurdegudelrddttd dmucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgf nhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttd enucenucfjughrpefkvffufffhjgggtgfgsehtjeejtddttddvnecuhfhrohhmpehorhhi segvihhgvghnshhtrghtvgdrohhrghenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedvhedtfeefteegle fhgeekhefhuefhhedvvdeiudeuheejteegveekiedtveeuhfenucfkphepvddtiedruddv gedrudefvddruddtjedpjeegrddutdekrdehiedrvddvheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepihhnvghtpedvtdeirdduvdegrddufedvrddutdejpdhhvghl ohepmhhimhhirhdrvghighgvnhhsthgrthgvrdhorhhgpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepoehorh hisegvihhgvghnshhtrghtvgdrohhrgheq X-ME-VSScore: 0 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (eigenstate.org: 206.124.132.107 is authorized to use 'ori@eigenstate.org' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'mx' matched)) receiver=tb-mx0.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="ori@eigenstate.org"; helo=mimir.eigenstate.org; client-ip=206.124.132.107 Received: from mimir.eigenstate.org (mimir.eigenstate.org [206.124.132.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:46:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ori@eigenstate.org) Received: from abbatoir.myfiosgateway.com (pool-74-108-56-225.nycmny.fios.verizon.net [74.108.56.225]) by mimir.eigenstate.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id cb0e3762 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256:NO) for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:46:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:46:12 -0500 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: <16433305240.859A78.94453@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b53a38d2-7fd3-11ec-9d33-ce6124adb8c8 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZjM1MDE5MDM2YmNkOWE0OTI3NDg4?= =?UTF-8?B?NTc2Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mf35019036bcd9a4927488576:1:7GxDqZz-3KgNC94sjlYAIgkCiUr7K_j16JQdSjD0eHU Quoth ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: > I'm lucky cause I don't need ghostscript, page (depending on it) the font= s. I'm using a framebuffer renderer instead of rio for my tiny kiosk versio= n of 9front.=20 >=20 > My code depends on the bootloader, the drivers, kernelcode, libraries fro= m 9front. Especially the WiFi-drivers, usb support ramfs and loop-devices a= s implemented by 9front and those are all MIT licenced as far as I understo= od. >=20 > Do you have a recommended copyright notice which I can display or would y= ou prefer links to p9f, legacy9 and 9front while displaying the MIT licence= . My distribution will be closed source but I intend to share some parts wi= th the community. >=20 Take a look in /lib/legal. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mf3501= 9036bcd9a4927488576 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3000 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2022 01:14:31 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Jan 2022 01:14:31 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2A527B92 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:14:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM691a23bfdc9732e512f2c59e.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 77B4513BBB5B; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:14:30 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=75XyHeCZ/kFEFfrcbgDTGAVYqhxBCYIDu1KueBws6mg=; b=WBHtOCzz3cra TmG2f445TxjptF212BxeNF3CqbYSWyxlyp3BudEPGiSvrgqUrZxZ/pA9qacNDiW4 asn55mcb+RslyTexG1jZSunxYSiF0XkYSyqVyDiyjZs1q9GRNBC4BdL7LoTsmWeN T6/GnFXKU9Q1e5AQf7iqPRt8ZrovUUk= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:14:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16433324651.bf14023A.935638 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: a231b0e0-7fd7-11ec-9cb8-7999242d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NNjkxYTIzYmZkYzk3MzJlNTEyZjJj?= =?UTF-8?B?NTllPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M691a23bfdc9732e512f2c59e:1:LxdM4hpgGNiEVx03oQNt1Ui9JbjF9RT-PKthw1d9j-0 --16433324651.bf14023A.935638 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:14:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for your hint ori, After searching for Copying, Copyright, Licence I found these problematic c= ommands (libs) : Xen (9f) diff (9f,l9) patch (9f, l9) ghostscript (9f, l9) mp3dec (9f, l9) lzip (l9) 9f ... 9font l9 ... legacy9 I'm not sure how problematic icclib could be. Clause 4 could be dangerous r= egarding ... derived from based on ...=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M691a2= 3bfdc9732e512f2c59e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16433324651.bf14023A.935638 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 20:14:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for your hint ori,

After searching for Copying, Copyright, Licence I found these = problematic commands (libs) :

Xen (9f)

diff (9f,l9)

patch (9f, l9)

gh= ostscript (9f, l9)

mp3dec (9f, l9)

lzip (l9= )

9f ... 9font

l9 ... lega= cy9

I'm not sure how problematic iccli= b could be. Clause 4 could be dangerous regarding ... derived from based on= ...

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x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject :to:content-type:list-help:list-id:list-post:list-subscribe :reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=fTXWCf2JzCP5bniiRuksb/WARNelAhXSjrNczzkyTJE=; b=mYBuYDWZl9ON nz0LE8imM+HnpW2rpXUmU2wKXVj6Ittktto1RUieVU4bHq5h5sfLqjRzUGg1ZjhM Disy2GpYq7U7QhIzhHHuBFJK/z6TjqyqYfC7Cr3J4dpfitciQzNHgnHpu7Q8ErRy 6OurgEhwrmhR1CGrBH4B+nl8zKMHnWg= Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost.local [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C1B13C9C04 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:14:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lucio.dere@gmail.com) Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Authentication Milter) with ESMTP id 06063ADE57C; 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Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:14:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:651c:b20:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:14:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16433234120.28b5c.668468@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433234120.28b5c.668468@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: Lucio De Re Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 05:14:05 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 5e36fede-7fe8-11ec-9734-e75a920256bb Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NNzNkM2Y3ZTAxZjY0MTkxMzA0Nzk0?= =?UTF-8?B?MzhlPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M73d3f7e01f6419130479438e:1:uqnnTDVQLnzPW9h6rvp0-7oRgCaCDezBcr-9qWMjMkY On 1/28/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > I noticed that I can't distribute fonts and ghostscript as part of a plan9 > (9legacy, 9front) system due to their licensing terms. > Any font you realy, really can't live without? > Does anybody know about code, libraries, binaries, documentation present = on > the latest 9legacy or 9front iso's which are outside the newly applied > MIT-licence ? > South Africans are like Yankee pioneers, incapable of any discipline; I have been brain-washed into the same mold and don't care much for copyright, just to set the tone here. What I've found is that P9P's fontsrv is quite capable of providing access to just about any font type in common usage with minimal incantations. Fontsrv is a little buggy, various versions in different manners, but all failure modes I have encountered so far are non-destructive. Anyone interested in giving me a hand consolidating the code into a single, architecture-agnostic tool, please do contact me. What works more or less out of the box is pretty good, it deserves more love and affection. 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="khm@sciops.net"; helo=wopr.sciops.net; client-ip=216.126.196.60 Received: from wopr.sciops.net (wopr.sciops.net [216.126.196.60]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:23:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from khm@sciops.net) Received: from localhost (wopr.sciops.net [local]) by wopr.sciops.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id 24c2c874 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:23:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:23:19 -0800 To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: aa1ae594-7fe9-11ec-8618-9cf3ad6c3d43 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZjliOTQ5NjE5NjY2ZjdhODczMGUy?= =?UTF-8?B?ZDczPg==?= From: "Kurt H Maier via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mf9b949619666f7a8730e2d73:1:XJQUtkZfjmgOhkn4kg9A04-b9lOeFx8dXbHtbryVt2A On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:14:25PM -0500, ibrahim via 9fans wrote: > Thanks for your hint ori, >=20 > After searching for Copying, Copyright, Licence I found these problematic= commands (libs) : >=20 > Xen (9f) > diff (9f,l9) > patch (9f, l9) > ghostscript (9f, l9) > mp3dec (9f, l9) > lzip (l9) >=20 > 9f ... 9font > l9 ... legacy9 >=20 > I'm not sure how problematic icclib could be. Clause 4 could be dangerous= regarding ... derived from based on ...=20 None of these prohibit redistribution. Feel free to delete them from your copy. khm ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mf9b94= 9619666f7a8730e2d73 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20609 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2022 12:01:56 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Jan 2022 12:01:56 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DA532957 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2022 07:01:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMf8a2f7c56fff6ebad6c88447.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 643F313EF858; Fri, 28 Jan 2022 07:01:55 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=rWp9dgkcwiWXACMdfDAGukCY2hoFAXv2Tp43g91sv98=; b=C7nV6dE0Otap JioZU1C5IPsSHLoXqOQz5tySp/pYcoCYZMBQKQz+vlaqNaa8I6IUtYQ47yX4nJ+F PuYsNjdmabuafd4m9sxA7MNy6Qg08YCtolJ61X9k7eAvK/i+FmHE8owe6zU3gKhi FsOvCPu/ruDfY3tdt/vmCfZ70sLFVlE= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 07:01:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16433713091.3b338.507002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 12fb9516-8032-11ec-8627-8ecc2a2d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZjhhMmY3YzU2ZmZmNmViYWQ2Yzg4?= =?UTF-8?B?NDQ3Pg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mf8a2f7c56fff6ebad6c88447:1:X-XP0v-C29u9M6G7y6xVlTsf2xigLK81zX1dNRh8crs --16433713091.3b338.507002 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 07:01:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 4:23 AM, Kurt H Maier wrote: > None of these prohibit redistribution. Feel free to delete them from your copy. I'm intending to distribute a closed source binary release as a kiosk appli= cation which will be used as a graphical terminal for students. So anything= containing GPL code can't be part of the base installment. Users can decid= e to download and install binaries on their computer but the moment I distr= ibute a GPL application as an integral part of my system where some of the = binaries depend on their existence without alternatives my code and binarie= s get infected by GPL.=20 I already deleted ghostscript and all fonts from 9front to avoid legal prob= lems. Xen, mp3dec, lzip weren't used by my app the only surprises were diff= and patch which I can substitute by not GPL'ed versions. You are right if I would distribute my kiosk software in binary and source = form like all plan9 distributions do. Then I would have fulfilled the neces= sities of GPL regarding redistribution. But the problem of "work based upon= ", "word depends on" would perhaps remain for some of the tools used by pla= n9. In common you are right but not when someone makes a binary distributio= n ... Thanks ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mf8a2f= 7c56fff6ebad6c88447 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16433713091.3b338.507002 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 07:01:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 4:23 AM, Kurt H= Maier wrote:

None of these prohibit r= edistribution. Feel free to delete them from your copy.

I'm intending to dis= tribute a closed source binary release as a kiosk application which will be= used as a graphical terminal for students. So anything containing GPL code= can't be part of the base installment. Users can decide to download an= d install binaries on their computer but the moment I distribute a GPL appl= ication as an integral part of my system where some of the binaries depend = on their existence without alternatives my code and binaries get infected b= y GPL.

I already deleted ghostscript and = all fonts from 9front to avoid legal problems. Xen, mp3dec, lzip weren'= t used by my app the only surprises were diff and patch which I can substit= ute by not GPL'ed versions.

You are ri= ght if I would distribute my kiosk software in binary and source form like = all plan9 distributions do. Then I would have fulfilled the necessities of = GPL regarding redistribution. But the problem of "work based upon"= ;, "word depends on" would perhaps remain for some of the tools u= sed by plan9. In common you are right but not when someone makes a binary d= istribution ...

Thanks

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Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:59:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a59:ca31:0:b0:27d:32f:72ac with HTTP; Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:59:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 22:59:37 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 996d0f0a-8085-11ec-a1f2-c5247694a738 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZTBmNzUzNzE2MjMyMzIwNjA5MDBk?= =?UTF-8?B?ZTMwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Me0f75371623232060900de30:1:jqa9zcws_wgyo_gmClnQ-DyuPK3b2agQ1Cvf6HeQkfQ why should it be closed source? you're gonna seriously put the effort to remove all the traces of source fi= les? why not just keep the source so people can learn about the software that they are using?! students are supposed to learn, no? On 1/28/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 4:23 AM, Kurt H Maier wrote: >> None of these prohibit redistribution. Feel free to delete them from > your copy. >=20 > I'm intending to distribute a closed source binary release as a kiosk > application which will be used as a graphical terminal for students. So > anything containing GPL code can't be part of the base installment. Users > can decide to download and install binaries on their computer but the mom= ent > I distribute a GPL application as an integral part of my system where some > of the binaries depend on their existence without alternatives my code and > binaries get infected by GPL. >=20 > I already deleted ghostscript and all fonts from 9front to avoid legal > problems. Xen, mp3dec, lzip weren't used by my app the only surprises were > diff and patch which I can substitute by not GPL'ed versions. >=20 > You are right if I would distribute my kiosk software in binary and source > form like all plan9 distributions do. Then I would have fulfilled the > necessities of GPL regarding redistribution. But the problem of "work bas= ed > upon", "word depends on" would perhaps remain for some of the tools used = by > plan9. In common you are right but not when someone makes a binary > distribution ... >=20 > Thanks ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Me0f75= 371623232060900de30 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21277 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 13:03:14 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 13:03:14 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5832C622 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:03:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM5595c4fa89c61db53873ff4c.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 9B19A1448978; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:03:13 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=2DJ8uKRa4/HizRVr7ce+sG6ouGmkpV3L5INZ8R6fiRw=; b=OlOiASxt+PVn JQ0c2eY73CpT0N6V7o2BowY/GynY89usTHaosWTdIbCqsW1JPV8u74T+POYdq94w hl5J2WiWSEeGisy2ap8v+G4DNottmYlpSaosbCe4ijJLFuOLJvq7Gi8Qf1BWsbJt 5rsaXtV6dYNnGotVDTwHgNuMhUKzO2g= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:03:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434613851.Ca7C38.59069 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: ccbd9108-8103-11ec-bee8-33da212d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NNTU5NWM0ZmE4OWM2MWRiNTM4NzNm?= =?UTF-8?B?ZjRjPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M5595c4fa89c61db53873ff4c:1:7pd_hV1wHoWDy0r6cb096R2kV-OZvwTwzOfp1fBbjcw --16434613851.Ca7C38.59069 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:03:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 10:59 PM, hiro wrote: > why should it be closed source? you're gonna seriously put the effort to remove all the traces of source fi= les? This kiosk app is meant for students in math, electrotechnics, mechanics ..= . its a closed area network where only registered students can connect. Thi= s plattform is only meant for exchange of data and informations. The app is= distributed as an iso to be run from bare hardware or qemu (virtual box). = The current version is running based on FreeBSD and has a size caused by X1= 1 necessity and accompanying programs of 800 MB. I'm trying to reduce the s= ize and increasing the performance by using plan9. My plattform generates f= orm many simulation tasks, symbolic calculations, plotting, ... intermediat= e C code and translates this to programs which are called as child processe= s and generate their output for rendering. LLVM is needed two times in the = FreeBSD installation once for X11 and once as a system compiler. By using p= lan9 I can reduce the size of this kiosk application to estimated 300 MB. I= gave plan9 a try a few years ago and was fascinated but the licence wasn't= attractive at that time. But now it's ideal for such tasks. Some sources are part of this installment inside a loop file those are prov= ided internally with a ramfs so in time compilation gets possible. The mome= nt I include GPL licensed code into this ramfs this would infect my own lic= ence. My plattform is BSD 2 claused the students can distribute it freely b= ut the mechanics for connecting to the closed area network are hidden. The = MIT licence, zlib, Ogg Vorbis license are compatible with BSD 2 license and= require proper acknowlegdement but GPL can't be used in such a manner.=20 Plan9 with its new license is optimal for such applications. I think that p= lan9 would have been more wide spread if this new license would have been a= pplied from the beginning. And I believe that the reason why NetBSD, OpenBS= D, FreeBSD are not as wide spread as Linux was the lack of a compiler suite= conforming to the BSD license. Some time ago the BSD project asked for a l= icense change for plan9 to integrate the C compiler which didn't happen at = that time. But I'm sure that in the near future their will be some BSD fork= s which will take more ideas and tools from Plan9 (especially the compiler = suite). Plan9 has more advantages besides those - nearly direct access to t= he hardware and a simplified way to enhancements due to its namespaces and = 9fs.=20 I'm using BSD systems since 1991 and I think its important to follow a stri= ct licensing scheme otherwise many years later as it happened in NetBSD, Fr= eeBSD and OpenBSD you start to search for alternative implementations cause= at some point your code is not accompanied by incompatible licensed code b= ut is depending on those so it is infected. If you decide to distribute a s= ystem with a non infecting open source license than its important to do thi= s in a consistent form. The more time passes the more you depend on parts a= nd the less gets the chance to exchange those parts.=20 I am consequently avoiding infecting licenses in my projects and my distrib= utions for decades now and those parts of plan9 (9front) which are not conf= orming are not a big deal to throw away. diff, patch are available in confo= rming licensed versions. I prefer ogg vorbis to mp3 due to its patent probl= ems in the past. There are dozens of truetype fonts with better quality and= distributable. The only problematic part not only to plan9 but also all BS= D systems is ghostscript but I have an existing translater from postscript = to svg and a closed source svg library for rendering for other projects whe= re I would perhaps need page and the dependency to ghostscript. No need for= lzip and xen ... The reason why this reply was this long is simple : My experience from the past and my involvements in BSD projects tought me t= hat many open source projects try to take large steps in short time and mos= t often they borrow code or libraries from projects not conforming with the= ir chosen license. Legal questions are taken very lightly for a few years b= ut than at some point in time those legal questions surface. The reason why= linux took over was this simple - BSD 4.3 lost its compilers. There are people (I am one of them) who also have to write commercial proje= cts for a living. I'm developing embedded software for electronic circuits = and plan9 is now a real alternative for me cause of its new license. I can = decide for each project if I want to make it open source or not. And by con= sequently avoiding infecting licenses I can use the same code base for open= source as well as closed source projects. Why do you think p9f asked for a relicensing of plan9 while it was already = gpl licensed a few years ago ? Both are redistributable but the MIT version= is also usable for closed source commercial projects while the GPL version= is not. Does this matter ? Yes of course it matters for people or companie= s. Its sometimes amusing to see developers taking legal issues lightly.=20 I'm not an advocate but be assured : The moment you distribute lets say a s= et top box based on plan9 using legacy9 or 9front and you don't delete thos= e mentioned parts from your distribution you can't make it closed source. I= f your set top box plays mp3 or opens a pdf ps file by using ghostscript an= d this is a significant part of the functionality you have created a derive= d work based on or depending on GPL'ed code. To solve this problem you woul= d have to seperate those parts from your hardware and make it downloadable = to keep it closed source. But this wouldn't be a real solution because page= depends on the existence of ghostscript to display pdf and ps files so you= have a 1:1 dependency. FSF perhaps won't take this seriously. Aladdin will= because they offer a commercial license alternative. And your concurrents = will also look closely to make your product open sourced. This is not ficti= on this is reality happening hundreds of times per year.=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M5595c= 4fa89c61db53873ff4c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434613851.Ca7C38.59069 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:03:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 10:59 PM, hiro = wrote:

why should it be closed source? you're gonna seriously put the effort to remove all the traces of sourc= e files?

This kiosk app is meant fo= r students in math, electrotechnics, mechanics ... its a closed area networ= k where only registered students can connect. This plattform is only meant = for exchange of data and informations. The app is distributed as an iso to = be run from bare hardware or qemu (virtual box). The current version is run= ning based on FreeBSD and has a size caused by X11 necessity and accompanyi= ng programs of 800 MB. I'm trying to reduce the size and increasing the= performance by using plan9. My plattform generates form many simulation ta= sks, symbolic calculations, plotting, ... intermediate C code and translate= s this to programs which are called as child processes and generate their o= utput for rendering. LLVM is needed two times in the FreeBSD installation o= nce for X11 and once as a system compiler. By using plan9 I can reduce the = size of this kiosk application to estimated 300 MB. I gave plan9 a try a fe= w years ago and was fascinated but the licence wasn't attractive at tha= t time. But now it's ideal for such tasks.

Some sources are part of this installment inside a loop file those are= provided internally with a ramfs so in time compilation gets possible. The= moment I include GPL licensed code into this ramfs this would infect my ow= n licence. My plattform is BSD 2 claused the students can distribute it fre= ely but the mechanics for connecting to the closed area network are hidden.= The MIT licence, zlib, Ogg Vorbis license are compatible with BSD 2 licens= e and require proper acknowlegdement but GPL can't be used in such a ma= nner.

Plan9 with its new license is optim= al for such applications. I think that plan9 would have been more wide spre= ad if this new license would have been applied from the beginning. And I be= lieve that the reason why NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD are not as wide spread a= s Linux was the lack of a compiler suite conforming to the BSD license. Som= e time ago the BSD project asked for a license change for plan9 to integrat= e the C compiler which didn't happen at that time. But I'm sure tha= t in the near future their will be some BSD forks which will take more idea= s and tools from Plan9 (especially the compiler suite). Plan9 has more adva= ntages besides those - nearly direct access to the hardware and a simplifie= d way to enhancements due to its namespaces and 9fs.

I'm using BSD systems since 1991 and I think its important = to follow a strict licensing scheme otherwise many years later as it happen= ed in NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD you start to search for alternative imple= mentations cause at some point your code is not accompanied by incompatible= licensed code but is depending on those so it is infected. If you decide t= o distribute a system with a non infecting open source license than its imp= ortant to do this in a consistent form. The more time passes the more you d= epend on parts and the less gets the chance to exchange those parts.
=

I am consequently avoiding infecting licenses i= n my projects and my distributions for decades now and those parts of plan9= (9front) which are not conforming are not a big deal to throw away. diff, = patch are available in conforming licensed versions. I prefer ogg vorbis to= mp3 due to its patent problems in the past. There are dozens of truetype f= onts with better quality and distributable. The only problematic part not o= nly to plan9 but also all BSD systems is ghostscript but I have an existing= translater from postscript to svg and a closed source svg library for rend= ering for other projects where I would perhaps need page and the dependency= to ghostscript. No need for lzip and xen ...

<= div>The reason why this reply was this long is simple :

My experience from the past and my involvements in BSD projec= ts tought me that many open source projects try to take large steps in shor= t time and most often they borrow code or libraries from projects not confo= rming with their chosen license. Legal questions are taken very lightly for= a few years but than at some point in time those legal questions surface. = The reason why linux took over was this simple - BSD 4.3 lost its compilers= .

There are people (I am one of them) who = also have to write commercial projects for a living. I'm developing emb= edded software for electronic circuits and plan9 is now a real alternative = for me cause of its new license. I can decide for each project if I want to= make it open source or not. And by consequently avoiding infecting license= s I can use the same code base for open source as well as closed source pro= jects.

Why do you think p9f asked for a re= licensing of plan9 while it was already gpl licensed a few years ago ? Both= are redistributable but the MIT version is also usable for closed source c= ommercial projects while the GPL version is not. Does this matter ? Yes of = course it matters for people or companies. Its sometimes amusing to see dev= elopers taking legal issues lightly.

I= 9;m not an advocate but be assured : The moment you distribute lets say a s= et top box based on plan9 using legacy9 or 9front and you don't delete = those mentioned parts from your distribution you can't make it closed s= ource. If your set top box plays mp3 or opens a pdf ps file by using ghosts= cript and this is a significant part of the functionality you have created = a derived work based on or depending on GPL'ed code. To solve this prob= lem you would have to seperate those parts from your hardware and make it d= ownloadable to keep it closed source. But this wouldn't be a real solut= ion because page depends on the existence of ghostscript to display pdf and= ps files so you have a 1:1 dependency. FSF perhaps won't take this ser= iously. Aladdin will because they offer a commercial license alternative. A= nd your concurrents will also look closely to make your product open source= d. This is not fiction this is reality happening hundreds of times per year= .

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Sat, 29 Jan 2022 05:24:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:612c:4c4:b0:287:6dd5:bed9 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 05:24:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:24:49 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: d9077688-8106-11ec-827a-bf24a2f66b3e Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZWQ0NTNmNjlhMTk4ZDM0MDZlNTIx?= =?UTF-8?B?M2M5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Med453f69a198d3406e5213c9:1:vfWUqvkDPz6Jn-7hioCiLB1B7DwldJnIP6mm_fTyzFw i never cared about the gpl license. it didn't improve anything as it's less permissive than we had before. i still see a risk when math&electrical engineers will be barred access to the sourcecode. maybe they would find a beautiful solution by changing a few lines of code, allowing you to improve your (one-man-project ?) system. generally i think if all users can change the code and recompile everything, this makes it infinitely more maintainable. one of the best things about plan9 is that all source and binaries are all part of the distribution and installation, and easily re-(cross-)compilable by anybody. i don't buy the argument that source code would be too big. for just one subject in school i had to download many gigabytes of quartus, over a decade ago. our source is nowhere near that big. On 1/29/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 10:59 PM, hiro wrote: >> why should it be closed source? > you're gonna seriously put the effort to remove all the traces of source > files? >=20 > This kiosk app is meant for students in math, electrotechnics, mechanics = ... > its a closed area network where only registered students can connect. This > plattform is only meant for exchange of data and informations. The app is > distributed as an iso to be run from bare hardware or qemu (virtual box). > The current version is running based on FreeBSD and has a size caused by = X11 > necessity and accompanying programs of 800 MB. I'm trying to reduce the s= ize > and increasing the performance by using plan9. My plattform generates form > many simulation tasks, symbolic calculations, plotting, ... intermediate C > code and translates this to programs which are called as child processes = and > generate their output for rendering. LLVM is needed two times in the Free= BSD > installation once for X11 and once as a system compiler. By using plan9 I > can reduce the size of this kiosk application to estimated 300 MB. I gave > plan9 a try a few years ago and was fascinated but the licence wasn't > attractive at that time. But now it's ideal for such tasks. >=20 > Some sources are part of this installment inside a loop file those are > provided internally with a ramfs so in time compilation gets possible. The > moment I include GPL licensed code into this ramfs this would infect my o= wn > licence. My plattform is BSD 2 claused the students can distribute it fre= ely > but the mechanics for connecting to the closed area network are hidden. T= he > MIT licence, zlib, Ogg Vorbis license are compatible with BSD 2 license a= nd > require proper acknowlegdement but GPL can't be used in such a manner. >=20 > Plan9 with its new license is optimal for such applications. I think that > plan9 would have been more wide spread if this new license would have been > applied from the beginning. And I believe that the reason why NetBSD, > OpenBSD, FreeBSD are not as wide spread as Linux was the lack of a compil= er > suite conforming to the BSD license. Some time ago the BSD project asked = for > a license change for plan9 to integrate the C compiler which didn't happen > at that time. But I'm sure that in the near future their will be some BSD > forks which will take more ideas and tools from Plan9 (especially the > compiler suite). Plan9 has more advantages besides those - nearly direct > access to the hardware and a simplified way to enhancements due to its > namespaces and 9fs. >=20 > I'm using BSD systems since 1991 and I think its important to follow a > strict licensing scheme otherwise many years later as it happened in NetB= SD, > FreeBSD and OpenBSD you start to search for alternative implementations > cause at some point your code is not accompanied by incompatible licensed > code but is depending on those so it is infected. If you decide to > distribute a system with a non infecting open source license than its > important to do this in a consistent form. The more time passes the more = you > depend on parts and the less gets the chance to exchange those parts. >=20 > I am consequently avoiding infecting licenses in my projects and my > distributions for decades now and those parts of plan9 (9front) which are > not conforming are not a big deal to throw away. diff, patch are available > in conforming licensed versions. I prefer ogg vorbis to mp3 due to its > patent problems in the past. There are dozens of truetype fonts with bett= er > quality and distributable. The only problematic part not only to plan9 but > also all BSD systems is ghostscript but I have an existing translater from > postscript to svg and a closed source svg library for rendering for other > projects where I would perhaps need page and the dependency to ghostscrip= t. > No need for lzip and xen ... >=20 > The reason why this reply was this long is simple : >=20 > My experience from the past and my involvements in BSD projects tought me > that many open source projects try to take large steps in short time and > most often they borrow code or libraries from projects not conforming with > their chosen license. Legal questions are taken very lightly for a few ye= ars > but than at some point in time those legal questions surface. The reason = why > linux took over was this simple - BSD 4.3 lost its compilers. >=20 > There are people (I am one of them) who also have to write commercial > projects for a living. I'm developing embedded software for electronic > circuits and plan9 is now a real alternative for me cause of its new > license. I can decide for each project if I want to make it open source or > not. And by consequently avoiding infecting licenses I can use the same c= ode > base for open source as well as closed source projects. >=20 > Why do you think p9f asked for a relicensing of plan9 while it was already > gpl licensed a few years ago ? Both are redistributable but the MIT versi= on > is also usable for closed source commercial projects while the GPL version > is not. Does this matter ? Yes of course it matters for people or compani= es. > Its sometimes amusing to see developers taking legal issues lightly. >=20 > I'm not an advocate but be assured : The moment you distribute lets say a > set top box based on plan9 using legacy9 or 9front and you don't delete > those mentioned parts from your distribution you can't make it closed > source. If your set top box plays mp3 or opens a pdf ps file by using > ghostscript and this is a significant part of the functionality you have > created a derived work based on or depending on GPL'ed code. To solve this > problem you would have to seperate those parts from your hardware and make > it downloadable to keep it closed source. But this wouldn't be a real > solution because page depends on the existence of ghostscript to display = pdf > and ps files so you have a 1:1 dependency. FSF perhaps won't take this > seriously. Aladdin will because they offer a commercial license alternati= ve. > And your concurrents will also look closely to make your product open > sourced. This is not fiction this is reality happening hundreds of times = per > year. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Med453= f69a198d3406e5213c9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 30436 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 14:08:16 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 14:08:16 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F242D25E for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:08:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM16ce34d043025f8cd079636e.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 7158E144BC04; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:08:16 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=aOxYGzEq77EEVPuT2cls/HZbIk89/4H31uR0LHGy8JQ=; b=FOnT+vfzurLU A1vMWD9EdPeakOIq28VkTtLC3pfmLre3pB4fRfmJPEHEd6DYToTrF4JsLN8z2SI4 Yb/JQtkHQKS/u7xvWubbJw+Le22z8dVU6vTs+MNksNpBz4H2GZ1wzXKT/OyWg4mX Z6j3AthtyMnBO+53JyJoq/3YjOUKdlk= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:08:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434652911.5d4f3dFB.267022 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: e486b306-810c-11ec-b77f-33da212d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMTZjZTM0ZDA0MzAyNWY4Y2QwNzk2?= =?UTF-8?B?MzZlPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M16ce34d043025f8cd079636e:1:EpxRqNGf6zamHOJ8Y9w7jvViBf2MmksqqZbUbYHRNBM --16434652911.5d4f3dFB.267022 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:08:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 2:24 PM, hiro wrote: > i don't buy the argument that source code would be too big. for just one subject in school i had to download many gigabytes of quartus, over a decade ago. our source is nowhere near that big. A kiosk application for educational purposes in subjects not involving prog= ramming consists of tools for viewing texts, animations,=C2=A0 images, a ca= lculator a plotter and an interface do upload pictures taken from your hand= written assignments. There is also a chat platform for group chats and indi= vidual talking. The whole plattform uses TCP/IP as its only communication p= rotocol avoiding existing RFC standards. The GUI is similar to a web site b= ut looks more like a desktop with windows where all tools like calculator, = chat clients, upload tools are represented by floating windows. Nothing mor= e and nothing less. The purpose of this application is not teaching the stu= dents how to realize such a platform but the subjects they need to pass the= ir exams at university. There is no benefit for the students to learn how t= o realize such a platform and thats also not the goal of this project. My Freebsd version has now 800 MB. A great amount of this size is caused by= hand written sample solution scans for past exams provided as 300dpi image= s (png or ppm). Most of my notes are handwritten cause this way to provide = solutions for exam questions is faster and simpler. Some of the teachings a= re provided as ogg vorbis files. The system part regarding Freebsd and X11 can be reduced by using plan9 dra= matically. My own software has a few MB. In the plan9 distribution I will u= se a new image format based on horizontal scanlines using 256 colors. This = has an acceptable quality is faster to render and the size of the image fil= es will shrink to about 25%.=20 800 MB aren't only the sources they include the base course material. The a= pplication has to make this material visible, usable and allow students to = connect to deliver their assignments ask questions get back hand written no= tes and to exchange information with others using this closed network.=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M16ce3= 4d043025f8cd079636e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434652911.5d4f3dFB.267022 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:08:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 2:24 PM, hiro= wrote:

i don't buy the argument t= hat source code would be too big. for just one subject in school i had to download many gigabytes of quartus, over a decade ago. our source is nowhere near that big.

<= div>

A kiosk application for educational purposes in subjec= ts not involving programming consists of tools for viewing texts, animation= s, images, a calculator a plotter and an interface do upload pictures= taken from your handwritten assignments. There is also a chat platform for= group chats and individual talking. The whole plattform uses TCP/IP as its= only communication protocol avoiding existing RFC standards. The GUI is si= milar to a web site but looks more like a desktop with windows where all to= ols like calculator, chat clients, upload tools are represented by floating= windows. Nothing more and nothing less. The purpose of this application is= not teaching the students how to realize such a platform but the subjects = they need to pass their exams at university. There is no benefit for the st= udents to learn how to realize such a platform and thats also not the goal = of this project.

My Freebsd version has no= w 800 MB. A great amount of this size is caused by hand written sample solu= tion scans for past exams provided as 300dpi images (png or ppm). Most of m= y notes are handwritten cause this way to provide solutions for exam questi= ons is faster and simpler. Some of the teachings are provided as ogg vorbis= files.

The system part regarding Freebsd = and X11 can be reduced by using plan9 dramatically. My own software has a f= ew MB. In the plan9 distribution I will use a new image format based on hor= izontal scanlines using 256 colors. This has an acceptable quality is faste= r to render and the size of the image files will shrink to about 25%.

800 MB aren't only the sources they includ= e the base course material. The application has to make this material visib= le, usable and allow students to connect to deliver their assignments ask q= uestions get back hand written notes and to exchange information with other= s using this closed network.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink

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format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Correlation-ID: Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 133952a6-8114-11ec-9fde-c2e3d9228855 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMDM3ODMzNDMyMTZkMjJhZWUwZGUz?= =?UTF-8?B?NGYxPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M03783343216d22aee0de34f1:1:pD7YgHPJISOme8KmCpDoMsupiHampCpaZFzZINjKFlk 29.01.2022 15:08:11 ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: > The system part regarding Freebsd and X11 can be reduced by using plan9=20 > dramatically. My own software has a few MB. In the plan9 distribution I=20 > will use a new image format based on horizontal scanlines using 256=20 > colors. This has an acceptable quality is faster to render and the size=20 > of the image files will shrink to about 25%. I'm interested in that image format. Btw in my experience it's often very=20 small to take an extremely simple image format that can compress well and=20 store it in a compressed format, decompress on demand. This is btw what farbfeld is meant for: very simple format with good=20 enough color depth, easily compressible to sizes smaller than png. It's=20 literally just uint16 rgba per pixel in horizontal lines. I haven't=20 really looked at plan 9 image format and how it compares, but I assume=20 the result would be very similar. (Btw I should have uploaded some converters for farbfeld for 9 somewhere) Also, while thinking about it, I think the plan 9 images support=20 different color palettes and stuff like that? In general, I agree with a kiosk solution that doesn't need public=20 sources, however I encourage you to split your content and the software.=20 Content can easily be on a common fileserver and mounted into /lib or=20 wherever, while you can certainly benefit from other people being able to=20 read your code and contribute improvements and fixes. They don't need all=20 the content for that and sample files can be enough. Maybe try to compare your system with how /sys/doc is set up: it contains=20 the important papers. Imagine on a linux system you'd have all papers=20 about all systems! It would be huge and nobody would read it. sirjofri ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M03783= 343216d22aee0de34f1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,NICE_REPLY_A,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14134 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 16:16:21 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 16:16:21 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0852B7A7 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:16:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMbd3791a290542cdd442f41e9.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id D8495144F4CF; 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mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=ReliableID.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=wes@ReliableID.com; dmarc=pass header.from= Received: from [192.168.4.22] (c-73-38-243-63.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [73.38.243.63]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1643472954223745.2942714640244; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:15:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:15:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Content-Language: en-US To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: Wes Kussmaul In-Reply-To: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ZohoMailClient: External Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: c61a5582-811e-11ec-9d73-b9e81532ec32 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYmQzNzkxYTI5MDU0MmNkZDQ0MmY0?= =?UTF-8?B?MWU5Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mbd3791a290542cdd442f41e9:1:Ch65DYVSkz9LVI5ccF8nOb8OtoY0s05w29MX5HEy2gQ On 1/29/22 08:03, ibrahim via 9fans wrote: > On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 10:59 PM, hiro wrote: >> why should it be closed source? you're gonna seriously put the effort=20 >> to remove all the traces of source files? > > I am consequently avoiding infecting licenses in my projects and my=20 > distributions for decades now and those parts of plan9 (9front) which=20 > are not conforming are not a big deal to throw away. diff, patch are=20 > available in conforming licensed versions. Ibrahim, this is a big unacknowledged problem in open source. A solution is proposed at gos.osmio.ch: *** "Until now, the world of software licensing has been divided into two=20 models: proprietary and open source. That has served us well=E2=80=A6 or ha= s=20 served us anyway... for decades. But the world needs something better*=E2= =80=93*=20 a third way if you will. Allow us to introduce that third model to you. The *proprietary ecosystems* of Apple, Adobe, Microsoft, Oracle and=20 others are governed. In each case, an identifiable entity, a company,=20 *takes responsibility for keeping the system useful and secure. That=E2=80= =99s=20 good.* Open source software also provides its own kind of goodness. Anyone can=20 put open source software to use, avoiding market manipulation,=20 proprietary barriers, license fees, file format gotchas, hidden privacy=20 erosion techniques, and the rest of the not so good stuff that infests=20 proprietary technology. Proprietary software might have been OK when your phone was wired into=20 the wall and your =E2=80=9Cmicro=E2=80=9D computer was an unconnected glori= fied=20 typewriter. But now that we all live a large portion of our lives in the=20 digital world, that private, closed governance has us living down on the=20 plantations of the owners of those proprietary platforms. *So how do we get the benefits of both governed systems and open source=20 systems at the same time?* The answer is: *Governed Open Source* ** Governed Open Source is genuinely a third new category alongside=20 proprietary and open source." *** GOS includes very old constructs from the physical world such as=20 professional licensing of code auditors and many others. I suggest=20 checking it out. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mbd379= 1a290542cdd442f41e9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 19726 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 16:56:48 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 16:56:48 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2738C2BF93 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 11:56:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMd60c902b9e204932c410398e.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 217B11450E2D; 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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n7sm963640qta.78.2022.01.29.08.56.32 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:56:32 -0800 (PST) From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6AAEC6AB-6F31-4494-A832-C6FFEDED7667" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 $3693.60.0.1.1$) Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 08:56:31 -0800 References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Message-Id: <700A0B4D-23A6-4980-9DC8-50E293A34296@iitbombay.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 6e1e14e4-8124-11ec-b4c6-af0128166248 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZDYwYzkwMmI5ZTIwNDkzMmM0MTAz?= =?UTF-8?B?OThlPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Md60c902b9e204932c410398e:1:TWaJ6aVOfa0r-uZ5kKQekKRk34VvXNf4VStTyj-syjA --Apple-Mail=_6AAEC6AB-6F31-4494-A832-C6FFEDED7667 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 If there is no programming to be done by the kiosk users, why do you need any compilers? Similarly you can remove many other things from your kiosk image. In fact you should have a script that prepares the image. xorg needs llvm only for *building* mesa-dri. If you are just using prebui= lt freebsd packages, you don't need it. Even if you are compiling some things inside the kiosk, you can probably make do with tcc, which is much much smaller and faster (though it won't generate as fast code as llvm or gcc). tcc is LGPL so your code is not infected. Just by cutting out the two copies of llvm, your image size will shrink by about 400-500MB. Also note that plan9 c compilers are likely no faster than tcc. And there w= ill be other challenges. Not to dissuade you from switching to plan9 but just pointing out there are ways to reduce the image size while staying with FreeBSD. > On Jan 29, 2022, at 5:03 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net > wrote: >=20 > On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 10:59 PM, hiro wrote: >> why should it be closed source? you're gonna seriously put the effort to= remove all the traces of source files? >=20 > This kiosk app is meant for students in math, electrotechnics, mechanics = ... its a closed area network where only registered students can connect. T= his plattform is only meant for exchange of data and informations. The app = is distributed as an iso to be run from bare hardware or qemu (virtual box)= . The current version is running based on FreeBSD and has a size caused by = X11 necessity and accompanying programs of 800 MB. I'm trying to reduce the= size and increasing the performance by using plan9. My plattform generates= form many simulation tasks, symbolic calculations, plotting, ... intermedi= ate C code and translates this to programs which are called as child proces= ses and generate their output for rendering. LLVM is needed two times in th= e FreeBSD installation once for X11 and once as a system compiler. By using= plan9 I can reduce the size of this kiosk application to estimated 300 MB.= I gave plan9 a try a few years ago and was fascinated but the licence wasn= 't attractive at that time. But now it's ideal for such tasks. >=20 > Some sources are part of this installment inside a loop file those are pr= ovided internally with a ramfs so in time compilation gets possible. The mo= ment I include GPL licensed code into this ramfs this would infect my own l= icence. My plattform is BSD 2 claused the students can distribute it freely= but the mechanics for connecting to the closed area network are hidden. Th= e MIT licence, zlib, Ogg Vorbis license are compatible with BSD 2 license a= nd require proper acknowlegdement but GPL can't be used in such a manner.=20 >=20 > Plan9 with its new license is optimal for such applications. I think that= plan9 would have been more wide spread if this new license would have been= applied from the beginning. And I believe that the reason why NetBSD, Open= BSD, FreeBSD are not as wide spread as Linux was the lack of a compiler sui= te conforming to the BSD license. Some time ago the BSD project asked for a= license change for plan9 to integrate the C compiler which didn't happen a= t that time. But I'm sure that in the near future their will be some BSD fo= rks which will take more ideas and tools from Plan9 (especially the compile= r suite). Plan9 has more advantages besides those - nearly direct access to= the hardware and a simplified way to enhancements due to its namespaces an= d 9fs.=20 >=20 > I'm using BSD systems since 1991 and I think its important to follow a st= rict licensing scheme otherwise many years later as it happened in NetBSD, = FreeBSD and OpenBSD you start to search for alternative implementations cau= se at some point your code is not accompanied by incompatible licensed code= but is depending on those so it is infected. If you decide to distribute a= system with a non infecting open source license than its important to do t= his in a consistent form. The more time passes the more you depend on parts= and the less gets the chance to exchange those parts.=20 >=20 > I am consequently avoiding infecting licenses in my projects and my distr= ibutions for decades now and those parts of plan9 (9front) which are not co= nforming are not a big deal to throw away. diff, patch are available in con= forming licensed versions. I prefer ogg vorbis to mp3 due to its patent pro= blems in the past. There are dozens of truetype fonts with better quality a= nd distributable. The only problematic part not only to plan9 but also all = BSD systems is ghostscript but I have an existing translater from postscrip= t to svg and a closed source svg library for rendering for other projects w= here I would perhaps need page and the dependency to ghostscript. No need f= or lzip and xen ... >=20 > The reason why this reply was this long is simple : >=20 > My experience from the past and my involvements in BSD projects tought me= that many open source projects try to take large steps in short time and m= ost often they borrow code or libraries from projects not conforming with t= heir chosen license. Legal questions are taken very lightly for a few years= but than at some point in time those legal questions surface. The reason w= hy linux took over was this simple - BSD 4.3 lost its compilers. >=20 > There are people (I am one of them) who also have to write commercial pro= jects for a living. I'm developing embedded software for electronic circuit= s and plan9 is now a real alternative for me cause of its new license. I ca= n decide for each project if I want to make it open source or not. And by c= onsequently avoiding infecting licenses I can use the same code base for op= en source as well as closed source projects. >=20 > Why do you think p9f asked for a relicensing of plan9 while it was alread= y gpl licensed a few years ago ? Both are redistributable but the MIT versi= on is also usable for closed source commercial projects while the GPL versi= on is not. Does this matter ? Yes of course it matters for people or compan= ies. Its sometimes amusing to see developers taking legal issues lightly.=20 >=20 > I'm not an advocate but be assured : The moment you distribute lets say a= set top box based on plan9 using legacy9 or 9front and you don't delete th= ose mentioned parts from your distribution you can't make it closed source.= If your set top box plays mp3 or opens a pdf ps file by using ghostscript = and this is a significant part of the functionality you have created a deri= ved work based on or depending on GPL'ed code. To solve this problem you wo= uld have to seperate those parts from your hardware and make it downloadabl= e to keep it closed source. But this wouldn't be a real solution because pa= ge depends on the existence of ghostscript to display pdf and ps files so y= ou have a 1:1 dependency. FSF perhaps won't take this seriously. Aladdin wi= ll because they offer a commercial license alternative. And your concurrent= s will also look closely to make your product open sourced. This is not fic= tion this is reality happening hundreds of times per year.=20 >=20 > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery=C2=A0options Permalink ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Md60c9= 02b9e204932c410398e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --Apple-Mail=_6AAEC6AB-6F31-4494-A832-C6FFEDED7667 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

If there is no programming to be done b= y the kiosk users, why do you need

any compilers? Similarly = you can remove many other things from your

kiosk image= . In fact you should have a script that prepares the image.

xorg needs llvm only for *buil= ding* mesa-dri. If you are just using prebuilt

f= reebsd packages, you don't need it. Even if you are compiling some thin= gs

inside the kiosk, you can probably make do with tcc= , which is much much

smaller and faster (though it won= 't generate as fast code as llvm or gcc).

tcc is L= GPL so your code is not infected. Just by cutting out the two copies

<= div class=3D"">of llvm, your image size will shrink by about 400-500MB.

Also note that pla= n9 c compilers are likely no faster than tcc. And there will

be other challenges.

Not to dissuade you from switching to plan9 but just pointing = out

there are ways to reduce the image size while stay= ing with FreeBSD.

On = Jan 29, 2022, at 5:03 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

On Fr= iday, 28 January 2022, at 10:59 PM, hiro wrote:
why should it be closed source? you're gonna seriously put the effort to remove all the traces of sourc= e files?

This kiosk app is meant for students in math, electrotech= nics, mechanics ... its a closed area network where only registered student= s can connect. This plattform is only meant for exchange of data and inform= ations. The app is distributed as an iso to be run from bare hardware or qe= mu (virtual box). The current version is running based on FreeBSD and has a= size caused by X11 necessity and accompanying programs of 800 MB. I'm = trying to reduce the size and increasing the performance by using plan9. My= plattform generates form many simulation tasks, symbolic calculations, plo= tting, ... intermediate C code and translates this to programs which are ca= lled as child processes and generate their output for rendering. LLVM is ne= eded two times in the FreeBSD installation once for X11 and once as a syste= m compiler. By using plan9 I can reduce the size of this kiosk application = to estimated 300 MB. I gave plan9 a try a few years ago and was fascinated = but the licence wasn't attractive at that time. But now it's ideal = for such tasks.

Some sources are part of this installment inside a loop f= ile those are provided internally with a ramfs so in time compilation gets = possible. The moment I include GPL licensed code into this ramfs this would= infect my own licence. My plattform is BSD 2 claused the students can dist= ribute it freely but the mechanics for connecting to the closed area networ= k are hidden. The MIT licence, zlib, Ogg Vorbis license are compatible with= BSD 2 license and require proper acknowlegdement but GPL can't be used= in such a manner.

Plan9 with its new license is optimal for such applic= ations. I think that plan9 would have been more wide spread if this new lic= ense would have been applied from the beginning. And I believe that the rea= son why NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD are not as wide spread as Linux was the la= ck of a compiler suite conforming to the BSD license. Some time ago the BSD= project asked for a license change for plan9 to integrate the C compiler w= hich didn't happen at that time. But I'm sure that in the near futu= re their will be some BSD forks which will take more ideas and tools from P= lan9 (especially the compiler suite). Plan9 has more advantages besides tho= se - nearly direct access to the hardware and a simplified way to enhanceme= nts due to its namespaces and 9fs.

<= br class=3D"" />

I'm using BSD systems since 1991 = and I think its important to follow a strict licensing scheme otherwise man= y years later as it happened in NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD you start to se= arch for alternative implementations cause at some point your code is not a= ccompanied by incompatible licensed code but is depending on those so it is= infected. If you decide to distribute a system with a non infecting open s= ource license than its important to do this in a consistent form. The more = time passes the more you depend on parts and the less gets the chance to ex= change those parts.

I am consequently avoiding infecting licenses in my = projects and my distributions for decades now and those parts of plan9 (9fr= ont) which are not conforming are not a big deal to throw away. diff, patch= are available in conforming licensed versions. I prefer ogg vorbis to mp3 = due to its patent problems in the past. There are dozens of truetype fonts = with better quality and distributable. The only problematic part not only t= o plan9 but also all BSD systems is ghostscript but I have an existing tran= slater from postscript to svg and a closed source svg library for rendering= for other projects where I would perhaps need page and the dependency to g= hostscript. No need for lzip and xen ...

The reason why this reply was = this long is simple :

My experience from the past and my involvements in = BSD projects tought me that many open source projects try to take large ste= ps in short time and most often they borrow code or libraries from projects= not conforming with their chosen license. Legal questions are taken very l= ightly for a few years but than at some point in time those legal questions= surface. The reason why linux took over was this simple - BSD 4.3 lost its= compilers.

There are people (I am one of them) who also have to write co= mmercial projects for a living. I'm developing embedded software for el= ectronic circuits and plan9 is now a real alternative for me cause of its n= ew license. I can decide for each project if I want to make it open source = or not. And by consequently avoiding infecting licenses I can use the same = code base for open source as well as closed source projects.

Why do you t= hink p9f asked for a relicensing of plan9 while it was already gpl licensed= a few years ago ? Both are redistributable but the MIT version is also usa= ble for closed source commercial projects while the GPL version is not. Doe= s this matter ? Yes of course it matters for people or companies. Its somet= imes amusing to see developers taking legal issues lightly.

I'm not = an advocate but be assured : The moment you distribute lets say a set top b= ox based on plan9 using legacy9 or 9front and you don't delete those me= ntioned parts from your distribution you can't make it closed source. I= f your set top box plays mp3 or opens a pdf ps file by using ghostscript an= d this is a significant part of the functionality you have created a derive= d work based on or depending on GPL'ed code. To solve this problem you = would have to seperate those parts from your hardware and make it downloada= ble to keep it closed source. But this wouldn't be a real solution beca= use page depends on the existence of ghostscript to display pdf and ps file= s so you have a 1:1 dependency. FSF perhaps won't take this seriously. = Aladdin will because they offer a commercial license alternative. And your = concurrents will also look closely to make your product open sourced. This = is not fiction this is reality happening hundreds of times per year.

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Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:12:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: Grant Defayette Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:11:40 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0000000000002eb8f305d6bc7dbf Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: fc429aa6-812e-11ec-9dcd-eb2769094ce4 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZGZiNTQ0OGExNzM3Njk4YWEzY2M1?= =?UTF-8?B?OTA4Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mdfb5448a1737698aa3cc5908:1:zB76o6GFwi_Jo_rNYhiAouvUK-NjLKsz99taVybHgx8 --0000000000002eb8f305d6bc7dbf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Honestly I really don't see the issue with an 800mb network image. These kiosk machines and network should be able to handle that with no issues and it should fit on a disk easily. What constraint are you trying to solve? You want to switch from an easy to maintain by any Unix expert with fully available source to an obscure system that very few people use today and might have issues with redistribution of sources and fonts etc just to satisfy a constraint that doesn't exist. This is the kind of thing that would only fly at a university where they allow people to make strange decisions that solve problems that don't really exist. On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 9:08 AM ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 2:24 PM, hiro wrote: > > i don't buy the argument that source code would be too big. for just one > subject in school i had to download many gigabytes of quartus, over a > decade ago. our source is nowhere near that big. > > > A kiosk application for educational purposes in subjects not involving > programming consists of tools for viewing texts, animations, images, a > calculator a plotter and an interface do upload pictures taken from your > handwritten assignments. There is also a chat platform for group chats and > individual talking. The whole plattform uses TCP/IP as its only > communication protocol avoiding existing RFC standards. The GUI is similar > to a web site but looks more like a desktop with windows where all tools > like calculator, chat clients, upload tools are represented by floating > windows. Nothing more and nothing less. The purpose of this application is > not teaching the students how to realize such a platform but the subjects > they need to pass their exams at university. There is no benefit for the > students to learn how to realize such a platform and thats also not the > goal of this project. > > My Freebsd version has now 800 MB. A great amount of this size is caused > by hand written sample solution scans for past exams provided as 300dpi > images (png or ppm). Most of my notes are handwritten cause this way to > provide solutions for exam questions is faster and simpler. Some of the > teachings are provided as ogg vorbis files. > > The system part regarding Freebsd and X11 can be reduced by using plan9 > dramatically. My own software has a few MB. In the plan9 distribution I > will use a new image format based on horizontal scanlines using 256 color= s. > This has an acceptable quality is faster to render and the size of the > image files will shrink to about 25%. > > 800 MB aren't only the sources they include the base course material. The > application has to make this material visible, usable and allow students = to > connect to deliver their assignments ask questions get back hand written > notes and to exchange information with others using this closed network. > > *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions > + participants > + delivery options > Permalink > > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mdfb54= 48a1737698aa3cc5908 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --0000000000002eb8f305d6bc7dbf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Honestly I really don't see the issue with= an 800mb network image. These kiosk machines and network should be able to= handle that with no issues and it should fit on a disk easily. What constr= aint are you trying to solve? You want to switch from an easy to maintain b= y any Unix expert with fully available source to an obscure system that ver= y few people use today and might have issues with redistribution of sources= and fonts etc just to satisfy a constraint that doesn't exist. This is= the kind of thing that would only fly at a university where they allow peo= ple to make strange decisions that solve problems that don't really&nbs= p;exist.

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 9:08 AM ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

On Saturday, 29 J= anuary 2022, at 2:24 PM, hiro wrote:

i= don't buy the argument that source code would be too big. for just one subject in school i had to download many gigabytes of quartus, over a decade ago. our source is nowhere near that big.

<= div>

= --0000000000002eb8f305d6bc7dbf-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 30294 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 18:14:56 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 18:14:56 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D694A2D034 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:14:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM7b9ae9bc73a39379d01d7fba.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id CFB1F145548D; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:14:55 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=N2wh2zJBNYS0UhnHgDCJk9UtbTKd6XVX7NIE42srLrs=; b=YxKHuzfJHMYD D7FoOOa9fdVXZhhPjtTe4S2/MwNDzor9iwiD3HQTobPCP8FghXDYA85D3rnRMn9A LSBizKEOpqvM9tBjWYjVFjSpa1/jAIkbgSrjIzws80lQ2IFj0TOKD3DYsQeV5ayj 8zAtbSRysHoQ77/2BMWikwjcPZuD+2s= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434800900.d7f35aF.82986@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: <700A0B4D-23A6-4980-9DC8-50E293A34296@iitbombay.org> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <700A0B4D-23A6-4980-9DC8-50E293A34296@iitbombay.org> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:14:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434800901.Cbb0DdB.82986 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 59aa31ea-812f-11ec-98cf-8a559134e1fa Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NN2I5YWU5YmM3M2EzOTM3OWQwMWQ3?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmJhPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M7b9ae9bc73a39379d01d7fba:1:5ulFOhP-Lj5t6Djvh3hmzX6uZVbHLgk9GUB2O76g9bA --16434800901.Cbb0DdB.82986 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:14:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 5:56 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > Also note that plan9 c compilers are likely no faster than tcc. And there= will > be other challenges. My kiosk application using plan 9 and its compilers is already working. The= re were no problems changing from llvm to plan9 compilers. The speek differ= ence between plan9 compiled code and gcc, llvm compiled code is irrelevant.= I use compilers for many different tasks to avoid scripting at all. Everyt= hing gets expressed as C files which get automatically generated, translate= d and are called as child processes while using pipes. Some of those C file= s are for the generation of plot and graph data (2D, 3D). This data than ge= ts rendered into image files which than are displayed. The system works sim= ilar to gnuplot, asymptote aso with the difference that no external interpr= eter is used. This works simpler and faster using plan9 as using freebsd an= d llvm. The plan9 compilers are ideal for jit tasks. On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 5:56 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > Not to dissuade you from switching to plan9 but just pointing out > there are ways to reduce the image size while staying with FreeBSD. =C2=A0Don't worry I already realized my kiosk app using plan9 and wanted to= make sure of their are licensing problems I didn't know about. I only use = the libraries so the problems regarding commands aren't important for me. T= he second reason why I asked here is cause if there are prefered ways of ac= knowledgement I would include those. After this thread I will place somethi= ng like "This software is based in parts on plan9, legacy9 and 9front. Thos= e are licensed under MiT . For those who are interested in those proj= ects " As a sign of my gratitude and after the results of my other thread and the = lack of interest for a framebuffer device I intend to write a pdf and contr= ibute reduced versions of=C2=A0 devdraw, memlayer, memdraw which can be use= d for creation of such framebuffer based distributions which don't need the= plan9 gui. This will be licenced under the MIT.=20 =20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M7b9ae= 9bc73a39379d01d7fba Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434800901.Cbb0DdB.82986 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:14:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 5:56 PM, Baku= l Shah wrote:

Also note t= hat plan9 c compilers are likely no faster than tcc. And there will
be other challenges.

My kiosk application using plan 9 and its compi= lers is already working. There were no problems changing from llvm to plan9= compilers. The speek difference between plan9 compiled code and gcc, llvm = compiled code is irrelevant. I use compilers for many different tasks to av= oid scripting at all. Everything gets expressed as C files which get automa= tically generated, translated and are called as child processes while using= pipes. Some of those C files are for the generation of plot and graph data= (2D, 3D). This data than gets rendered into image files which than are dis= played. The system works similar to gnuplot, asymptote aso with the differe= nce that no external interpreter is used. This works simpler and faster usi= ng plan9 as using freebsd and llvm. The plan9 compilers are ideal for jit t= asks.

On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 5:5= 6 PM, Bakul Shah wrote:
N= ot to dissuade you from switching to plan9 but just pointing out
there are ways to reduce the image size while st= aying with FreeBSD.

&nb= sp;Don't worry I already realized my kiosk app using plan9 and wanted t= o make sure of their are licensing problems I didn't know about. I only= use the libraries so the problems regarding commands aren't important = for me. The second reason why I asked here is cause if there are prefered w= ays of acknowledgement I would include those. After this thread I will plac= e something like "This software is based in parts on plan9, legacy9 an= d 9front. Those are licensed under MiT <link>. For those who are inte= rested in those projects <links>"

As a sign of my gratitude and after the results of my other thread and t= he lack of interest for a framebuffer device I intend to write a pdf and co= ntribute reduced versions of devdraw, memlayer, memdraw which can be = used for creation of such framebuffer based distributions which don't n= eed the plan9 gui. This will be licenced under the MIT.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="cinap_lenrek@felloff.net"; helo=duke.felloff.net; client-ip=216.126.196.34 Received: from duke.felloff.net (duke.felloff.net [216.126.196.34]) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:58:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cinap_lenrek@felloff.net) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 19:58:05 +0100 From: cinap_lenrek@felloff.net To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question In-Reply-To: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 6fe2545a-8135-11ec-9f8c-9152c8f17fe7 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NNzNmNGEyY2MzOTc5MDg4MTgxMjEz?= =?UTF-8?B?NGM0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M73f4a2cc39790881812134c4:1:_XZWOqGRBRKbdv0lp4YQDDaEqshdl3T73Q8tQRAIEgc i dont really get your problem. my understanding is that the idea of the gpl is that if you derive work from a gpl licensed project is that that change will also be under gpl and you make the sourcecode available. no? whenever we bugfix something in ghostscript, that change will also be under gpl. and you make the source available for that change. on the other hand, calling the ghostscript interpreter as a external program, i dont think that would force your program kiosk to be gpl licensed (for example page(1) would be in the same situation... it calls all kinds of external image converters, including ghostscript). so why not just have the source of everything available? for me, your project isnt any different from a specialized plan9 distribution, consisting of a mix of differently licensed projects, including your kisok program. as long as you provide the source to the gpl components (or just everything, much easier) you should be fine, no? -- cinap ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M73f4a= 2cc39790881812134c4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4558 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 19:00:29 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 19:00:29 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D3B2DA35 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM5bae393595a57178e96c5959.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id B16BD1457B1E; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:28 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=EMxB67kBig3ZuJgdaDADnW3YilKEy5Lu7mRZ1tans5o=; b=DYbaYXAfmY9W DeruNh5CthPfn461VsJP9w4Z9CrarzMdOMVdvDluRR1qTYQfgP4nhWpT8yO5PkbC vnzAm6MkYv6iB+hyP38S7FRnTCLwkYjqhJ7XTIRvJqIN5S+scB7sHjyYLnzbPGxf CAcdMSRRgnam+0p/4SsS12KZ5uhhpyg= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434828230.8EFfBb.977499@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434828231.F940Bd.977499 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b644830a-8135-11ec-8274-33da212d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NNWJhZTM5MzU5NWE1NzE3OGU5NmM1?= =?UTF-8?B?OTU5Pg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M5bae393595a57178e96c5959:1:HKDy9P6GAiJtCvB5H6wW8DwRDeM12RVNlt-TU5I-zBU --16434828231.F940Bd.977499 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 7:12 PM, Grant Defayette wrote: > Honestly I really don't see the issue with an 800mb network image. These = kiosk machines and network should be able to handle that with no issues and= it should fit on a disk easily. What constraint are you trying to solve? Y= ou want to switch from an easy to maintain by any Unix expert with fully av= ailable source to an obscure system that very few people use today and migh= t have issues with redistribution of sources and fonts etc just to satisfy = a constraint that doesn't exist. This is the kind of thing that would only = fly at a university where they allow people to make strange decisions that = solve problems that don't really=C2=A0exist. I wrote earlier that the first project I'm using plan9 now is this kiosk ap= plication and this was already realized with FreeBSD. The purpose of such a= step was also to test how difficult would it be to realize a project with = plan9. I am also developing embedded software for bare metal and this test = made clear plan9 is the best choice for this kind of projects. Its small th= e underlying abstractions fulfilled their purpose and you get a full fledge= d OS useful for many tasks if you are brave enough to change some parts whi= ch won't fit your demands.=20 We are writing on 9fans so everyone present here made the choice to at leas= t test a system which you call "obscure system that very few people use tod= ay". plan9 was a research project to start with and its not obscure at all.= plan9, 9front are available running on different hardware even in raspberr= y pi (4 B) out of the box. I don't think that its a strange decision to use= an existing working platform to realize projects. The code quality is good= as could be expected from people who created unix. As a side note when the= first ten people used unix and others also decided to switch than all of t= hem made this so called "strange decision" and today unix used everywhere.= =20 I didn't have any remarkable problems substituting the fonts, and I won't h= ave any problems substituting the remaining parts which are not MIT license= d if needed.=20 You can only decide to use a project like this as a basement if you realize= a few projects using it. As the Bell people remarked on the plan9 papers p= lan9 was used as an embedded system in commercial projects. You think Bell = would have distributed this system and products based on it without verifyi= ng its reliability and quality ? The people involved in the development of = plan9 are creators of unix the most important compilers the best known tool= s and they used this in their daily work. If you look in one of the current= threads regarding a three buttoned mouse you will see that the first who a= nswered was Rob Pike who perhaps still uses acme and some form of plan9. I = don't have any doubts about the software quality of plan9 so be assured tha= t I will use this project without doubts and this decision is definitely no= t obscure. Believe it or not if plan9 had an MIT license from the beginning you can be= sure that the market share of plan9 would have be at least on the level of= BSD systems. Its simpler its smaller and the concepts are good. There woul= d have been forks cause of different tastes for the GUI but that is somethi= ng normal.=20 A kiosk app as a test case for the decision if the chosen OS can be handled= or causes unpredictable problems is the way I have chosen for myself. Afte= r a while I will learn about problems arising from this decision without ha= rming anybody. Not the users and not me as the maintainer.=C2=A0 This will = improve my experience.=20 Regarding the size of the image. This is a service I'm providing from a ded= icated Server on a commercial host. The most students today are using apple= mac books they can't and won't install any operating system on those machi= nes and I'm not willing to support x machine architectures for a students c= ourse. On my dedicated server there was placed a torrent file so I could ha= ndle the bandwidth problem in a acceptable way. At the beginning of each se= mester there are hundreds of downloads for this ISO. Estimated 60% of the s= tudents have to use virtual machines to start this ISO. Reducing the size o= f the ISO and the necessary RAM drive size where the ISO gets loaded to inc= reases the performance. If a student has a 4 GB laptop he can afford approx= imately 1 to 2 GB of system memory for use with the virtual machine. Beside= s the ISO you have to allocate process memory so the size impacts performan= ce regarding my experience. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M5bae3= 93595a57178e96c5959 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434828231.F940Bd.977499 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 7:12 PM, Gran= t Defayette wrote:
Ho= nestly I really don't see the issue with an 800mb network image. These = kiosk machines and network should be able to handle that with no issues and= it should fit on a disk easily. What constraint are you trying to solve? Y= ou want to switch from an easy to maintain by any Unix expert with fully av= ailable source to an obscure system that very few people use today and migh= t have issues with redistribution of sources and fonts etc just to satisfy = a constraint that doesn't exist. This is the kind of thing that would o= nly fly at a university where they allow people to make strange decisions t= hat solve problems that don't really exist.

I wrote earlier that the first project I'm usin= g plan9 now is this kiosk application and this was already realized with Fr= eeBSD. The purpose of such a step was also to test how difficult would it b= e to realize a project with plan9. I am also developing embedded software f= or bare metal and this test made clear plan9 is the best choice for this ki= nd of projects. Its small the underlying abstractions fulfilled their purpo= se and you get a full fledged OS useful for many tasks if you are brave eno= ugh to change some parts which won't fit your demands.

We are writing on 9fans so everyone present here made the= choice to at least test a system which you call "obscure system that = very few people use today". plan9 was a research project to start with= and its not obscure at all. plan9, 9front are available running on differe= nt hardware even in raspberry pi (4 B) out of the box. I don't think th= at its a strange decision to use an existing working platform to realize pr= ojects. The code quality is good as could be expected from people who creat= ed unix. As a side note when the first ten people used unix and others also= decided to switch than all of them made this so called "strange decis= ion" and today unix used everywhere.

I didn't have any remarkable problems substituting the fonts, and I wo= n't have any problems substituting the remaining parts which are not MI= T licensed if needed.

You can only decide= to use a project like this as a basement if you realize a few projects usi= ng it. As the Bell people remarked on the plan9 papers plan9 was used as an= embedded system in commercial projects. You think Bell would have distribu= ted this system and products based on it without verifying its reliability = and quality ? The people involved in the development of plan9 are creators = of unix the most important compilers the best known tools and they used thi= s in their daily work. If you look in one of the current threads regarding = a three buttoned mouse you will see that the first who answered was Rob Pik= e who perhaps still uses acme and some form of plan9. I don't have any = doubts about the software quality of plan9 so be assured that I will use th= is project without doubts and this decision is definitely not obscure.

Believe it or not if plan9 had an MIT license = from the beginning you can be sure that the market share of plan9 would hav= e be at least on the level of BSD systems. Its simpler its smaller and the = concepts are good. There would have been forks cause of different tastes fo= r the GUI but that is something normal.

A= kiosk app as a test case for the decision if the chosen OS can be handled = or causes unpredictable problems is the way I have chosen for myself. After= a while I will learn about problems arising from this decision without har= ming anybody. Not the users and not me as the maintainer. This will i= mprove my experience.

Regarding the size = of the image. This is a service I'm providing from a dedicated Server o= n a commercial host. The most students today are using apple mac books they= can't and won't install any operating system on those machines and= I'm not willing to support x machine architectures for a students cour= se. On my dedicated server there was placed a torrent file so I could handl= e the bandwidth problem in a acceptable way. At the beginning of each semes= ter there are hundreds of downloads for this ISO. Estimated 60% of the stud= ents have to use virtual machines to start this ISO. Reducing the size of t= he ISO and the necessary RAM drive size where the ISO gets loaded to increa= ses the performance. If a student has a 4 GB laptop he can afford approxima= tely 1 to 2 GB of system memory for use with the virtual machine. Besides t= he ISO you have to allocate process memory so the size impacts performance = regarding my experience.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
= --16434828231.F940Bd.977499-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7631 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 19:23:48 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 19:23:48 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58BD309EE for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:23:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM7498b48e28e05e603b1c6c46.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id BA9201460B07; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:23:46 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=80SbxNryzwtbk8akqS/AdN2qd4/9svIF2JgfqItwS8U=; b=eEPREv0nySm2 0ggdhxizcA/2xqQ+vG8fOSBkCR/8rLf57qXQALA5SOvKSr6H56/SaAd5MYFVHlv7 8hzG8f3AxnSX7FaOWa2ub5kXY7dNkuatgrySyID43FANqi7T5k/UTCg2iKMoSOer DcwXs/4RqIBhVJdgmgKx65ppm0/C1XY= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434842210.Ac93ca.881080@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:23:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434842211.CE16FBe4.881080 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: f7a62864-8138-11ec-8d60-33da212d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NNzQ5OGI0OGUyOGUwNWU2MDNiMWM2?= =?UTF-8?B?YzQ2Pg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M7498b48e28e05e603b1c6c46:1:PbPopaANxCHELOY1ri537nCgdRCRzjz4wwNrOqcKeKk --16434842211.CE16FBe4.881080 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:23:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 7:58 PM, cinap_lenrek wrote: > on the other hand, calling the ghostscript interpreter as a external program, i dont think that would force your program kiosk to be gpl licensed (for example page(1) would be in the same situation... it calls all kinds of external image converters, including ghostscript). https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLPlugins this plugin concept is the reason. The moment you include a gpl program and= use it for two sided communications and you depend on this to fulfill your= task than you get into trouble. Otherwise any gpl licensed program could b= e used this way. You write a few dozen lines forc, exec and pipe. Plugins f= orm a single application. The border line is where you depend on a single g= pl licensed program.=20 There exists one program and that is gpl ed without using this program your= s won't work than your program is called a single combined work. Otherwise = their are dozens of programs and you don't depend on a gpl'ed software but = you offer an interface for communicating with it also that doesn't form a s= ingle combined work. You don't depend on that. Regarding ghostscript. As clearly stated in release 3 of plan9 Bell labs ha= d a distribution license from aladdin. But we don't know if this license wa= s carried over to p9f.=C2=A0 But at some point in time the licenced version= of ghostscript was switched to a general aladdin licensed version accompan= ied by the regular license. Aladdin is similar to gpl regarding this plugin= tematics.=20 I personally would say using page for displaying pdf or ps is dangerous and= makes a distribution depending on this feature highly dangerous for develo= pers.=20 My question was not only connected with my kiosk application but a general = license question. For this project I prefer a closed source distribution as= I would for embedded systems. In other projects I wouldn't mind making par= ts of the code available other parts not. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M7498b= 48e28e05e603b1c6c46 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434842211.CE16FBe4.881080 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:23:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 7:58 PM, cina= p_lenrek wrote:
on the other hand, cal= ling the ghostscript interpreter as a external program, i dont think that would force your program kiosk to be gpl licensed (for example page(1) would be in the same situation... it calls all kinds of external image converters, including ghostscript).

https://w= ww.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLPlugins

this plugin concept is the reason. The moment you include a gpl progr= am and use it for two sided communications and you depend on this to fulfil= l your task than you get into trouble. Otherwise any gpl licensed program c= ould be used this way. You write a few dozen lines forc, exec and pipe. Plu= gins form a single application. The border line is where you depend on a si= ngle gpl licensed program.

There exists o= ne program and that is gpl ed without using this program yours won't wo= rk than your program is called a single combined work. Otherwise their are = dozens of programs and you don't depend on a gpl'ed software but yo= u offer an interface for communicating with it also that doesn't form a= single combined work. You don't depend on that.

=
Regarding ghostscript. As clearly stated in release 3 of plan9 B= ell labs had a distribution license from aladdin. But we don't know if = this license was carried over to p9f. But at some point in time the l= icenced version of ghostscript was switched to a general aladdin licensed v= ersion accompanied by the regular license. Aladdin is similar to gpl regard= ing this plugin tematics.

I personally wo= uld say using page for displaying pdf or ps is dangerous and makes a distri= bution depending on this feature highly dangerous for developers.

My question was not only connected with my kiosk a= pplication but a general license question. For this project I prefer a clos= ed source distribution as I would for embedded systems. In other projects I= wouldn't mind making parts of the code available other parts not.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:43:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:612c:4c4:b0:287:6dd5:bed9 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:43:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 21:43:56 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 32840892-8144-11ec-9175-9bb6e8053479 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYWUxNTA3YmQ4MWIyMzlhZWI2NjFk?= =?UTF-8?B?Mzc3Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mae1507bd81b239aeb661d377:1:nmg7LsbIPu6FEAl2geCntuJvZC6Dgb0pAzl-ThVH_3Y > There is no benefit for the > students to learn how to realize such a platform and thats also not the g= oal > of this project. maybe your stuff doesn't work and this way they can at least help you (or helpthemselves) fix it faster. what makes you think everything will work and your students are happy with the system? if the odd one out of the students learns plan9 you think that's not worth their while? then why do you use plan9 yourself? i would have loved to have a teacher in uni that uses plan9. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mae150= 7bd81b239aeb661d377 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 19447 invoked from network); 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Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:48:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:612c:4c4:b0:287:6dd5:bed9 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:48:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16434842210.Ac93ca.881080@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16434842210.Ac93ca.881080@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 21:48:47 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: de456af4-8144-11ec-a3c8-a067416b9703 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NN2MwNzg3N2I4NTFjZmQxMTVlMmNk?= =?UTF-8?B?MWUyPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M7c07877b851cfd115e2cd1e2:1:g3fj7EGVlAzIpu965b6qJCwtdtQzcvV5ded72R5N1so > I personally would say using page for displaying pdf or ps is dangerous a= nd > makes a distribution depending on this feature highly dangerous for > developers. yes, it's very dangerous in terms of licensing. i suggest you rewrite ghostscript as gs/pdf reading ability is very important for most users (even for our own docs). > My question was not only connected with my kiosk application but a general > license question. For this project I prefer a closed source distribution = as > I would for embedded systems. In other projects I wouldn't mind making pa= rts > of the code available other parts not. looking forward to your code submissions. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M7c078= 77b851cfd115e2cd1e2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23313 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 21:19:00 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 21:19:00 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B862325BA for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:18:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM22900ad3431e89e22362249d.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 58C3A1467BA0; 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="steve@quintile.net"; helo=haggis.mythic-beasts.com; client-ip=46.235.224.141 Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [46.235.224.141]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:18:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from steve@quintile.net) Received: from [81.187.198.132] (port=50541 helo=smtpclient.apple) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1nDv7P-0003A8-N3 for 9fans@9fans.net; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 21:18:47 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Steve Simon Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 21:18:46 +0000 Message-Id: <8290453C-6FF6-4D5A-B6E0-F603F3C47B33@quintile.net> References: In-Reply-To: To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19C63) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 0fcec954-8149-11ec-a7a6-e24fed2868f9 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMjI5MDBhZDM0MzFlODllMjIzNjIy?= =?UTF-8?B?NDlkPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M22900ad3431e89e22362249d:1:ccAvvP3s-I8Ow4k-ocgIaLsBPaIKq9hQSZak99AZPRk good grief people. Someone doesn=E2=80=99t like GPLs, can we not just accept this and not tell= them they are wrong. And if they wish not to release the source for their work, again that is th= eir decision. its one thing to point out the (possibly) unseen side effects of these deci= sions but lets just leave it at that. can we not keep 9fans supportive? -Steve ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M22900= ad3431e89e22362249d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24993 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 21:32:23 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 21:32:23 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0233285C for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:32:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM586a4373747116cfeee6fdbb.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 2C44F14687D2; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:32:23 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=XHr2imN/rD/8gTP/Y7Q8degRQ6/LEFYeMJ2HDU2q+uU=; b=YuxOBuQCztfi +4xCfH1qzafCPAOeYQNY9ESF8xrIywLXP4qFUA+1JBj73c7XO/8h9ekI7zccx9oq 3TS1BnSmiLLwTUz9b91Au2AKeq3KJmxkrmV9U877n6g7nWt3ZESO9Lw/Hb4xixoq KCF7MhxUHs/Y0igSPYUIqDcY523ssII= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:32:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434919381.bF0ef38Dd.56471 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: ef593946-814a-11ec-8912-8a559134e1fa Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NNTg2YTQzNzM3NDcxMTZjZmVlZTZm?= =?UTF-8?B?ZGJiPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M586a4373747116cfeee6fdbb:1:dMvzplNxeHQXWnJQhaGv_i0ukaA_7_2LOwNW8c6n-CU --16434919381.bF0ef38Dd.56471 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:32:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 9:44 PM, hiro wrote: > if the odd one out of the students learns plan9 you think that's not worth their while? then why do you use plan9 yourself? i would have loved to have a teacher in uni that uses plan9. I don't can't and won't hide the fact that my virtual machine image is base= d upon plan9, 9front. It's based upon so every student will find references= links to associated projects. Therefore I asked for your prefered form of = acknowledgement. On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 9:44 PM, hiro wrote: > what makes you think everything will work and your students are happy with the system? In the last decade students using the freebsd version very happy with it an= d I hope students from the wintersemester will also be happy. This platform= is meant to support them learning their examination stuff and the feedback= is not bad. There will always be roam for improvements, there will always = be bugs. All I can do is do my best.=20 On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 9:48 PM, hiro wrote: > yes, it's very dangerous in terms of licensing. i suggest you rewrite ghostscript as gs/pdf reading ability is very important for most users (even for our own docs). I don't need this cause I am representing drawing data as svg or in a forma= t similar to emf (enhanced metafile). Images are represented till now in zi= pped ppm format. Fonts are represented in ttf. And I support the dvi format= produced by tex and metafont. pdf and ps make the use of fonts necessary w= hich have licensing issues.=20 On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 9:48 PM, hiro wrote: > looking forward to your code submissions. I am at it. As you remember from the other thread there is no agreement abo= ut adding framebuffer support to plan9. This will show a simple application= which doesn't use devdraw, memdraw, memlayer and can't coexist with them. = If their are no agreements about how and where to support a framebuffer int= erface its not worth the effort to implement it in a compatible way. This p= roof of concept version will only give a taste about what would be possible= . (Expect some kind of animation without text rendering - which is not diff= icult but needs a clear interface definition). Of course I would prefer to = share those parts with the main distros/forks of plan9 the more they are us= ed the better they get and the more possible bugs will be discovered.=20 But if you expect a desktop alternative to rio with a theming window manage= r than an agreement is necessary to not waste time for things never meant t= o be part of plan9. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M586a4= 373747116cfeee6fdbb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434919381.bF0ef38Dd.56471 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:32:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 9:44 PM, hiro= wrote:
if the odd one out of the stud= ents learns plan9 you think that's not worth their while? then why do you use plan9 yourself? i would have loved to have a teacher in uni that uses plan9.

I don't can't and won't hide the fact that my virt= ual machine image is based upon plan9, 9front. It's based upon so every= student will find references links to associated projects. Therefore I ask= ed for your prefered form of acknowledgement.

<= div>On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 9:44 PM, hiro wrote:
what makes you think everything will work and your stud= ents are happy with the system?

In the last decade= students using the freebsd version very happy with it and I hope students = from the wintersemester will also be happy. This platform is meant to suppo= rt them learning their examination stuff and the feedback is not bad. There= will always be roam for improvements, there will always be bugs. All I can= do is do my best.

On Saturday, 29 Januar= y 2022, at 9:48 PM, hiro wrote:
yes, i= t's very dangerous in terms of licensing. i suggest you rewrite ghostscript as gs/pdf reading ability is very important for most users (even for our own docs).

I don'= t need this cause I am representing drawing data as svg or in a format simi= lar to emf (enhanced metafile). Images are represented till now in zipped p= pm format. Fonts are represented in ttf. And I support the dvi format produ= ced by tex and metafont. pdf and ps make the use of fonts necessary which h= ave licensing issues.

On Saturday, 29 Jan= uary 2022, at 9:48 PM, hiro wrote:
loo= king forward to your code submissions.
I am at it. A= s you remember from the other thread there is no agreement about adding fra= mebuffer support to plan9. This will show a simple application which doesn&= #39;t use devdraw, memdraw, memlayer and can't coexist with them. If th= eir are no agreements about how and where to support a framebuffer interfac= e its not worth the effort to implement it in a compatible way. This proof = of concept version will only give a taste about what would be possible. (Ex= pect some kind of animation without text rendering - which is not difficult= but needs a clear interface definition). Of course I would prefer to share= those parts with the main distros/forks of plan9 the more they are used th= e better they get and the more possible bugs will be discovered.

But if you expect a desktop alternative to rio with= a theming window manager than an agreement is necessary to not waste time = for things never meant to be part of plan9.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:34:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:612c:4c4:b0:287:6dd5:bed9 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:34:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8290453C-6FF6-4D5A-B6E0-F603F3C47B33@quintile.net> References: <8290453C-6FF6-4D5A-B6E0-F603F3C47B33@quintile.net> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 22:34:24 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3dc7336c-814b-11ec-8d36-d531c0713438 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYTI3MDE4YjQ3ZmI0YWJjNjI1MzMx?= =?UTF-8?B?MjJmPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Ma27018b47fb4abc62533122f:1:Kn4RB9x38aaJBXnVq0WJIJhyZskCr1UkcyPC1h4Gz8I do we have any say if we don't accept this? don't pretend there are any actions taken against this person's interest. personally i'm seeing missed opportunity in education. i care about education and try to encourage ways of sharing knowledge. if you don't like it, don't waste your time with such lengthy threads and contribute some code instead. then we can check what is wrong in your code instead of this high-level bickering. On 1/29/22, Steve Simon wrote: > good grief people. >=20 > Someone doesn=E2=80=99t like GPLs, can we not just accept this and not te= ll them > they are wrong. >=20 > And if they wish not to release the source for their work, again that is > their decision. >=20 > its one thing to point out the (possibly) unseen side effects of these > decisions but lets just leave it at that. >=20 > can we not keep 9fans supportive? >=20 > -Steve >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Ma2701= 8b47fb4abc62533122f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 26339 invoked from network); 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Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:42:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:612c:4c4:b0:287:6dd5:bed9 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 13:42:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 22:42:38 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 643617ce-814c-11ec-9e79-ae84236e9dcf Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMDJlMzQ0MDUzYTQyNGJiZDZkMzcx?= =?UTF-8?B?MjgzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M02e344053a424bbd6d371283:1:eKniTTWqvz-H-n-m0X91hRFTFqgYQNwwRnXPbHmVHi4 > links to associated projects. Therefore I asked for your prefered form of > acknowledgement. None needed whatsoever. Nobody here needs to force this extra visibility. Just think about the students and what helps them most. We might disagree, but it's your project, so you'll have to take all the responsibility I'm afraid. That's how the license works ;) > > On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 9:44 PM, hiro wrote: >> what makes you think everything will work and your students are happy > with the system? > > In the last decade students using the freebsd version very happy with it = and > I hope students from the wintersemester will also be happy. This platform= is > meant to support them learning their examination stuff and the feedback is > not bad. There will always be roam for improvements, there will always be > bugs. All I can do is do my best. Yes, so you confirm it's a one-man-project. It's a big risk IMO if it all depends on you personally so much. Cause then it cannot benefit from other's doing their best in addition to you. > On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 9:48 PM, hiro wrote: >> yes, it's very dangerous in terms of licensing. i suggest you rewrite > ghostscript as gs/pdf reading ability is very important for most users > (even for our own docs). > > I don't need this cause I am representing drawing data as svg or in a for= mat > similar to emf (enhanced metafile). Images are represented till now in > zipped ppm format. Fonts are represented in ttf. And I support the dvi > format produced by tex and metafont. pdf and ps make the use of fonts > necessary which have licensing issues. Ah, you're lucky in that case. > On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 9:48 PM, hiro wrote: >> looking forward to your code submissions. > I am at it. As you remember from the other thread there is no agreement > about adding framebuffer support to plan9. This will show a simple > application which doesn't use devdraw, memdraw, memlayer and can't coexist > with them. If their are no agreements about how and where to support a > framebuffer interface its not worth the effort to implement it in a > compatible way. This proof of concept version will only give a taste about > what would be possible. (Expect some kind of animation without text > rendering - which is not difficult but needs a clear interface definition= ). > Of course I would prefer to share those parts with the main distros/forks= of > plan9 the more they are used the better they get and the more possible bu= gs > will be discovered. Proof of concepts have value, too :) It's quite funny what kind of stuff somebody might dig up in 2 decades and learn something unexpected from it, happens here all the time. I'm not saying I will personally have a need for the system, but I'd like to spread this culture and make sure people share all they can. As long as it compiles... > But if you expect a desktop alternative to rio with a theming window mana= ger > than an agreement is necessary to not waste time for things never meant to > be part of plan9. I expect nothing, but if you make many great systems, I'm sure somebody will end up finding some form of inspiration from it, whether it's to find out how to do something or how not to do something is another issue ;) ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M02e34= 4053a424bbd6d371283 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 26414 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 21:43:11 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 21:43:11 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59F330123 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:43:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM300d0dce4e0019b8b17fae4a.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id E19FC146A5D1; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:43:10 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=Jn5x7jb5OVHPZKqeb4FqYCWw18EHKl0nTsZACAnUHME=; b=qWZSqMxKQj3j DqKIADPteacl2mnPDgbZb+X7XhUsLHDHYRy9s+HHeDN7I6vlEsxr75EesViuR17Y at/tF9dcIjseytQTYIl03dLZAKS2+H0fWX1J6SdXDUnYBnd0f73C7wd6tRrQm/Bk 6rJxOTMcBb0GU9Y/VIAKV1wZBqljw5A= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434925810.eeA3aBF.311885@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: <8290453C-6FF6-4D5A-B6E0-F603F3C47B33@quintile.net> References: <8290453C-6FF6-4D5A-B6E0-F603F3C47B33@quintile.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:43:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434925811.2D077d.311885 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 6ecdf5d0-814c-11ec-af41-33da212d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMzAwZDBkY2U0ZTAwMTliOGIxN2Zh?= =?UTF-8?B?ZTRhPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M300d0dce4e0019b8b17fae4a:1:zg8n3N2Eje1m0fCfomGHO6SoUxKzz4PGyzrkH9wqm0w --16434925811.2D077d.311885 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:43:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 10:18 PM, Steve Simon wrote: > Someone doesn=E2=80=99t like GPLs, can we not just accept this and not te= ll them they are wrong. And if they wish not to release the source for their work, again that is th= eir decision. Thanks for your support. I mean it. I don't get the argumentations here. Everyone was happy that plan9 was reli= censed as MIT last year. If no one is allowed to make closed source distrib= utions of plan9 based systems than why were all unhappy with the prior lice= nses. Years ago plan9 was licensed as GPL. 9front kept licensing with MIT. = If you expect everybody to make their products and systems fully open sourc= ed than you should have sticked with the GPL license. I admired the determi= nation of 9front taking this step for years. Now I'm really surprised about= some remarks in this thread. BSD or MIT licensed software encourages the u= se of such software in closed source products. GPL restricts this. I'm also willing to support those projects with code I thing will be of val= ue for others and giving them also the right to use this code open sourced = or closed source as they prefer and allowed by applying the mit licence for= my parts.=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M300d0= dce4e0019b8b17fae4a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434925811.2D077d.311885 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:43:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 10:18 PM, Ste= ve Simon wrote:
Someone doesn’t = like GPLs, can we not just accept this and not tell them they are wrong. And if they wish not to release the source for their work, again that is th= eir decision.

Thanks for your suppo= rt. I mean it.

I don't get the argumen= tations here. Everyone was happy that plan9 was relicensed as MIT last year= . If no one is allowed to make closed source distributions of plan9 based s= ystems than why were all unhappy with the prior licenses. Years ago plan9 w= as licensed as GPL. 9front kept licensing with MIT. If you expect everybody= to make their products and systems fully open sourced than you should have= sticked with the GPL license. I admired the determination of 9front taking= this step for years. Now I'm really surprised about some remarks in th= is thread. BSD or MIT licensed software encourages the use of such software= in closed source products. GPL restricts this.

I'm also willing to support those projects with code I thing will= be of value for others and giving them also the right to use this code ope= n sourced or closed source as they prefer and allowed by applying the mit l= icence for my parts.
9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6sm14070095oig.29.2022.01.29.14.14.44 for <9fans@9fans.net> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:14:44 -0800 (PST) From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 $3693.60.0.1.1$) Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:14:44 -0800 References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> In-Reply-To: <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: e1cf8608-8150-11ec-827c-ea3d02fb6084 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZGQxOTliOTM0YjkxMDZjOGJlZjZk?= =?UTF-8?B?ZjA3Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mdd199b934b9106c8bef6df07:1:_rLECyysVsFbSToUzR_Uaoa3d49eaA-o_LTb59Dcm4s Note that djvu would compress things very nicely. A full page 300dpi magazine color page that may be 25MB uncompressed will compress down to 40K-80K or so and be very legible, much more so compared a similar sized jpeg compressed image. The current OSS djvu library is GPL but as far as I know the original AT&T patent on the djvu technology has expired. If anyone wants to reimplement it with a more permissive license! The benefit is that there are a lot of existing djvu encoded documents. [Note: if anyone does decide to reimplement djvu, they should not just take my word for it but verify that the djvu patent(s) have indeed expired] > On Jan 29, 2022, at 6:08 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: >=20 > A great amount of this size is caused by hand written sample solution sca= ns for past exams provided as 300dpi images (png or ppm). Most of my notes = are handwritten cause this way to provide solutions for exam questions is f= aster and simpler. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mdd199= b934b9106c8bef6df07 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 31584 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 22:23:37 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 22:23:37 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFFFA33D03 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:23:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM06aba0b70dbfbe6782340dc3.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id D7F46146E797; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:23:36 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=E0/7v92EP0u3Y08xczsK+4wGbW/PESCLMG1SfKjtv8I=; b=OgKh8pZN52hY scfNNOm5rA/XeVP0RxExgFtLgATcWRTlUq20LxLK/V3lLWCbhl3Z5sZX3j/rVztj 74w+QzZCs6oSLWHWv8hD6lCohaI7YlHsSLUeeIFkL6x+cMxLJt4DhYnGKFFda0MW 2d3IAVTtWNbZvWGKtq3/3KRS/meaYpg= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:23:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434950121.B0F943D3.18342 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 1782b62a-8152-11ec-9518-8a559134e1fa Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMDZhYmEwYjcwZGJmYmU2NzgyMzQw?= =?UTF-8?B?ZGMzPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M06aba0b70dbfbe6782340dc3:1:voYzFQ5H9Ri7F_Wg5kHdZtLYQR8HmDX-DTulXv4KrZ8 --16434950121.B0F943D3.18342 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:23:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 10:42 PM, hiro wrote: > Proof of concepts have value, too :) It's quite funny what kind of stuff somebody might dig up in 2 decades and learn something unexpected from it, happens here all the time. I'm not saying I will personally have a need for the system, but I'd like to spread this culture and make sure people share all they can. As long as it compiles... Lets take a tv set as an example for a kiosk application thats not far away= . What benefit does the user of a tv have if I put the sourcecode of the tv= set into the mounted flash device ? Sure everybody could benefit from read= ing the way I programed embedded circuit but aren't there better ways to sh= are this information ?=20 As you remember from the other thread where we talked I am willing and inte= rested to share code of interest for plan9 or derivates of it but therefore= I started that discussion. I will use plan9 as a kiosk OS or as a desktop = OS and if there is interest in my experiences and if there are others who i= ntend to use this OS also in this way I want to share code, documentation a= nd give support. I'm a software developer since 1986 I wrote a book about V= isual C++ and contributed primarily to BSD projects. I don't know long you = are part of open sourced software but my first open source software project= s date from 1986 published in the german C64 magazines.=20 Prior to the MIT licensing of plan9 I didn't use it for distributed softwar= e. My preference was OpenBSD and FreeBSD depending on the project. I don't = contribute to GPL projects because that doesn't fit my opinion of open sour= ce. There are at least 5 mio people on the planet who make a living directl= y as developers and ten times as much making a living out of developed soft= ware products. The free beer philosophy sounds nice but the IT sector is th= e most important economical sector today. We are not living in paradise and= people have to earn money by their work.=20 You never asked me to share code I offered that on my own and I started ano= ther thread to make it in the right way. I respect the pioneers who develop= ed plan9 at Bell and I don't want to break anything in plan9. I am using pl= an9 now for my projects ! And I will use it more frequently in the future != Projects I'm doing for a living will be closed source ! In my spare time I= want to support this great project and share code which gives others a goo= d basement to also use plan9 in other ways even commercial ways to make a l= iving out of it but which will also give idealists the opportunity to write= code for a better world. I did that in the past and I'm doing it today. BS= D and MIT licenses support this and the reason why I decided to give plan9 = a try in a real project was the changed license. I don't disagree to what you said cause I support open source projects and = I'm making use of them. But development is not only a hobby of mine but als= o the way I earn my living. I don't know how things are for you but when I = go shopping and am asked for the payment no one will say you don't have to = pay because you are sharing everything you can for free. And be assured I'm= not ashamed of the fact that I am making a living out of development educa= tion or development of software. I want to share some of my work but not al= l. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M06aba= 0b70dbfbe6782340dc3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434950121.B0F943D3.18342 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:23:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 10:42 PM, hir= o wrote:
Proof of concepts have value,= too :) It's quite funny what kind of stuff somebody might dig up in 2 decades and learn something unexpected from it, happens here all the time. I'm not saying I will personally have a need for the system, but I'd like to spread this culture and make sure people share all they can. As long as it compiles...

Lets take= a tv set as an example for a kiosk application thats not far away. What be= nefit does the user of a tv have if I put the sourcecode of the tv set into= the mounted flash device ? Sure everybody could benefit from reading the w= ay I programed embedded circuit but aren't there better ways to share t= his information ?

As you remember from th= e other thread where we talked I am willing and interested to share code of= interest for plan9 or derivates of it but therefore I started that discuss= ion. I will use plan9 as a kiosk OS or as a desktop OS and if there is inte= rest in my experiences and if there are others who intend to use this OS al= so in this way I want to share code, documentation and give support. I'= m a software developer since 1986 I wrote a book about Visual C++ and contr= ibuted primarily to BSD projects. I don't know long you are part of ope= n sourced software but my first open source software projects date from 198= 6 published in the german C64 magazines.

= Prior to the MIT licensing of plan9 I didn't use it for distributed sof= tware. My preference was OpenBSD and FreeBSD depending on the project. I do= n't contribute to GPL projects because that doesn't fit my opinion = of open source. There are at least 5 mio people on the planet who make a li= ving directly as developers and ten times as much making a living out of de= veloped software products. The free beer philosophy sounds nice but the IT = sector is the most important economical sector today. We are not living in = paradise and people have to earn money by their work.

You never asked me to share code I offered that on my own and = I started another thread to make it in the right way. I respect the pioneer= s who developed plan9 at Bell and I don't want to break anything in pla= n9. I am using plan9 now for my projects ! And I will use it more frequentl= y in the future ! Projects I'm doing for a living will be closed source= ! In my spare time I want to support this great project and share code whi= ch gives others a good basement to also use plan9 in other ways even commer= cial ways to make a living out of it but which will also give idealists the= opportunity to write code for a better world. I did that in the past and I= 'm doing it today. BSD and MIT licenses support this and the reason why= I decided to give plan9 a try in a real project was the changed license.

I don't disagree to what you said cause= I support open source projects and I'm making use of them. But develop= ment is not only a hobby of mine but also the way I earn my living. I don&#= 39;t know how things are for you but when I go shopping and am asked for th= e payment no one will say you don't have to pay because you are sharing= everything you can for free. And be assured I'm not ashamed of the fac= t that I am making a living out of development education or development of = software. I want to share some of my work but not all.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
= --16434950121.B0F943D3.18342-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1496 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 22:40:38 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 22:40:38 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B335314D5 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:40:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM9f60f8b5ffc2c3bb7b2c02d9.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 76DB81470536; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:40:37 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=f1K79v5RSss+VcFHxPtGpgpn4OgRKK7D1hfD6MQATng=; b=XZAewmx0ArTX NT0mya/oig5U89XfIdhCnKblxzqT3KhWfxt2nutNNmZVHjIth2wwfB8KjXy4MVGD cvHi8GjmwCn2ZlHJVZOLtTv9yF2Wwur3YLJvy73ig2wNdxRayEl+okFjM5VCzEBg juoVqK6zuAPETaYezbzSLJcvKI4ui7Q= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434960320.29d60.470765@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:40:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434960321.7cF8.470765 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 77c82cac-8154-11ec-a60c-33da212d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NOWY2MGY4YjVmZmMyYzNiYjdiMmMw?= =?UTF-8?B?MmQ5Pg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M9f60f8b5ffc2c3bb7b2c02d9:1:xz3UaL-Xr2GMQOicbivXIHiODkHBaZrn11I8vaOSnk8 --16434960321.7cF8.470765 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:40:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 11:14 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > Note that djvu would compress things very nicely. A full page 300dpi magazine color page that may be 25MB uncompressed will compress down to 40K-80K or so and be very legible, much more so compared a similar sized jpeg compressed image. Thanks for your hint. I'm using djvu format for scanned book pages for my p= rivate use. The algorithm isn't easy to reimplement cause it uses pattern m= atching in an extensive way. You get the best results for scanned material = where as an example letters are matched quite often. It has superb compress= ion ratios but is slow regarding decompression or rendering. Regarding handwritten scans the best method I experienced is edge detection= filtering and color indexing to create a ppm image. Compression leads than= to smaller sizes than by using jpeg. Decompression is faster and when you = combine two lines to single one (subpixeling) you get smooth and clean imag= es. For printed sources djvu produces far smaller results. Thank you for this h= int. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M9f60f= 8b5ffc2c3bb7b2c02d9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434960321.7cF8.470765 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:40:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 11:14 PM, Bak= ul Shah wrote:
Note that djvu would co= mpress things very nicely. A full page 300dpi magazine color page that may be 25MB uncompressed will compress down to 40K-80K or so and be very legible, much more so compared a similar sized jpeg compressed image.
<= br />
Thanks for your hint. I'm using djvu format for scanned= book pages for my private use. The algorithm isn't easy to reimplement= cause it uses pattern matching in an extensive way. You get the best resul= ts for scanned material where as an example letters are matched quite often= . It has superb compression ratios but is slow regarding decompression or r= endering.

Regarding handwritten scans the = best method I experienced is edge detection filtering and color indexing to= create a ppm image. Compression leads than to smaller sizes than by using = jpeg. Decompression is faster and when you combine two lines to single one = (subpixeling) you get smooth and clean images.

=
For printed sources djvu produces far smaller results. Thank you for t= his hint.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:44:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:612c:4c4:b0:287:6dd5:bed9 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:44:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16434925810.eeA3aBF.311885@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <8290453C-6FF6-4D5A-B6E0-F603F3C47B33@quintile.net> <16434925810.eeA3aBF.311885@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 23:44:30 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 09021408-8155-11ec-af92-e2de240d7788 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NODMxOWZmOGQzNDVmNTRhYWFmMGVm?= =?UTF-8?B?MmNiPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M8319ff8d345f54aaaf0ef2cb:1:HT9sj4irA1xmvvEdV-5fO1OO1nmoU2nkMDAw2pHTdGI > I don't get the argumentations here. Everyone was happy that plan9 was > relicensed as MIT last year. If no one is allowed to make closed source > distributions of plan9 based systems than why were all unhappy with the > prior licenses. You're confusing the license and expressed wishes. Personally I will always use MIT license whenever I can. Regardless I think it's good manners to include the source, and more true to the original intent why it's MIT licensed. If you don't do as I please, I'll continue expressing my disagreement, nothing more than that. You're as usual free to ignore it. License is coercion. I don't like that. > Years ago plan9 was licensed as GPL. 9front kept licensing > with MIT. If you expect everybody to make their products and systems fully > open sourced than you should have sticked with the GPL license. GPL has never done anything for me, why should I do anything for them? > I admired > the determination of 9front taking this step for years. Now I'm really > surprised about some remarks in this thread. BSD or MIT licensed software > encourages the use of such software in closed source products. GPL restri= cts > this. Hahaha. Everything I say here is just my personal opinion, not some fucking official 9front foundation official political theater. And you misunderstood it completely. I guess you really like legalese, and you thus never managed to think for even one second about the philosophy and intent behind the license. > I'm also willing to support those projects with code I thing will be of > value for others and giving them also the right to use this code open > sourced or closed source as they prefer and allowed by applying the mit > licence for my parts. I never doubted your intent either. Given that you're trying to use this for education already gave you max. points for first impression. Doesn't mean I won't technically disagree. 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de"; helo=sirjofri.de; client-ip=5.45.105.127 Received: from sirjofri.de (sirjofri.de [5.45.105.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:14:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de) Received: from sirjofri.de ([95.90.218.152]) by sirjofri.de; Sun Jan 30 00:14:08 +0100 2022 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 23:14:07 +0000 (UTC) From: sirjofri To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> In-Reply-To: <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Correlation-ID: <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 36213258-8159-11ec-80fc-80e0ad4da033 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZWJjZDgyYTZlZWJjMjdhYjFlYWYx?= =?UTF-8?B?NGI0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mebcd82a6eebc27ab1eaf14b4:1:YplsOHz7dCwMYG4Nu3cXFvdU_9vZCNh6MnkwfwFoeJw 29.01.2022 23:23:32 ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: > Lets take a tv set as an example for a kiosk application thats not far=20 > away. What benefit does the user of a tv have if I put the sourcecode=20 > of the tv set into the mounted flash device ? Sure everybody could=20 > benefit from reading the way I programed embedded circuit but aren't=20 > there better ways to share this information ? Maybe I misunderstood something about licensing stuff but, can't you just=20 distribute the working build product (binaries etc, without source) to=20 the TV set (or kiosk) and keep the source in a completely separate open=20 space, under some open source license? I mean, does open source (gpl,=20 mit) mean, you have to distribute the source in the same device? At least that would have issues with any linux distribution I know, where=20 you usually just download prebuilt binaries and have to download the=20 source separately. sirjofri ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mebcd8= 2a6eebc27ab1eaf14b4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7798 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 23:26:27 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 23:26:27 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C3E3201F for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:26:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMce36a50cdc0abc563e2d2591.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 4D78E1473881; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:26:26 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=SHmUi+B1hbyarm0XVx9nTWiJZbQCz20FG/EusAymUyI=; b=HVKmfvZ8lAfJ vfaeTo1q0pzn3cBLik1fG9ob4B5bpZ9EyTBCSgxRmWbmhRo9iLykVEeSqCl8c24o 8a4O2rPEmMZMym8zkT56glsT370IqMSanY+10DOWUvRT5KVHfLDQBCljcpFMxacZ /yHfnE3LX8Mq1w0dYHggZj6VNbsQlPQ= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434987660.Ee0f.63295@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8290453C-6FF6-4D5A-B6E0-F603F3C47B33@quintile.net> <16434925810.eeA3aBF.311885@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:26:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434987661.EA5F5d.63295 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: d58c0eca-815a-11ec-ab9f-8a559134e1fa Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NY2UzNmE1MGNkYzBhYmM1NjNlMmQy?= =?UTF-8?B?NTkxPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mce36a50cdc0abc563e2d2591:1:DPRuRVguIlbIf4HmZMMcaDMIE9BKQeQBB2eq7BX0inE --16434987661.EA5F5d.63295 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:26:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 12:14 AM, sirjofri wrote: > Maybe I misunderstood something about licensing stuff but, can't you just= =20 distribute the working build product (binaries etc, without source) to=20 the TV set (or kiosk) and keep the source in a completely separate open=20 space, under some open source license? I mean, does open source (gpl,=20 mit) mean, you have to distribute the source in the same device? That wasn't about licensing rules but part of the answer to hiro. You misun= derstood the purpose of this sample or perhaps I didn't make it clear (sorr= y for that) As a side node if you search for GPL infringements you will find some examp= les of large scale companies who used embedded linux without sharing their = code in such devices. On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 12:14 AM, sirjofri wrote: > At least that would have issues with any linux distribution I know, where= =20 you usually just download prebuilt binaries and have to download the=20 source separately. What you said is right you can make binary distributions but have to provid= e the sources. The rules are described in detail here : https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mce36a= 50cdc0abc563e2d2591 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434987661.EA5F5d.63295 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:26:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 12:14 AM, sirjo= fri wrote:
Maybe I misunderstood somet= hing about licensing stuff but, can't you just=20 distribute the working build product (binaries etc, without source) to=20 the TV set (or kiosk) and keep the source in a completely separate open=20 space, under some open source license? I mean, does open source (gpl,=20 mit) mean, you have to distribute the source in the same device?

That wasn't about licensing rules but par= t of the answer to hiro. You misunderstood the purpose of this sample or pe= rhaps I didn't make it clear (sorry for that)

As a side node if you search for GPL infringements you will find so= me examples of large scale companies who used embedded linux without sharin= g their code in such devices.

On Sunday, 3= 0 January 2022, at 12:14 AM, sirjofri wrote:
At least that would have issues with any linux distribution I know, = where=20 you usually just download prebuilt binaries and have to download the=20 source separately.

What you said is= right you can make binary distributions but have to provide the sources. T= he rules are described in detail here :

https://www.gnu.org/lic= enses/gpl-faq.html

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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Sat, 29 Jan 2022 15:27:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:612c:4c4:b0:287:6dd5:bed9 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 15:27:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 00:27:38 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 0f530140-815b-11ec-9436-ec4baae0b26a Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMjczNjI2NWZhODliYzc3NGFmOWQx?= =?UTF-8?B?NTM0Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M2736265fa89bc774af9d1534:1:L0e_IZqjMIG6VoOpLeZElO1nO-1VpFjoPQ7rm_cbMuU > Maybe I misunderstood something about licensing stuff but, can't you just > distribute the working build product (binaries etc, without source) to > the TV set (or kiosk) and keep the source in a completely separate open > space, under some open source license? I mean, does open source (gpl, > mit) mean, you have to distribute the source in the same device? No, you're correct. It can be distributed separately, even "on request" is good enough to comply with gpl it seems. And then practically it's even possible to ignore people and still not share a bit, as countless companies show over and over again. And then you can just run the software yourself and not even give the binaries to anybody, instead they get a locked down horrible web interface, and nobody can even ASK for the software and so you never even get a valid request and nobody will ever know what GPL code you use. I.E. GPL is rather useless nowadays. Still there's a value of distributing the source with the binaries: user friendliness. As demonstrated by Plan9. As I already said. The value of this is huge and it would be sad to see somebody give it up just to save a few bytes. Binaries, Source, Compilers, Documentation, for *all* target platforms. Where else do you get this all in one like this? It's sadly very unique to Plan9. Of course this is completely separate from the license. I have never seen a license state that you shouldn't make your user's life miserable. Not like it's any more enforceable than the GPL, but it would certainly be more amusing, which would be the point. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M27362= 65fa89bc774af9d1534 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 9094 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 23:36:46 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Jan 2022 23:36:46 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63ACD326D1 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:36:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMecdec31b77bfe5c013b8342d.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 5EC711475FCD; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:36:45 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=yNlPqIBOsoi8AOyLb6O1JpRCUdn08/pyfPdmZmFOfa0=; b=hPOHYxy5r+VJ cEyEY8vXf+CAFpgmQRpcZgk3/s1pP4tS4L9bBjLRZoD+2rWDQMxC/gJHXQMa9XU9 0KRC8/quxFxwbGlhQsyhdsunxOBVjsjxnw4uX6+7+alh4FhUXRgcI2o4k7mJOAWr YIiT17B5RcBAnjMBReCjhmIAZuXJILs= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16434994000.2BA5.73427@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:36:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16434994001.fdB9BE4cb.73427 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 4ee78e9c-815c-11ec-86a4-8a559134e1fa Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZWNkZWMzMWI3N2JmZTVjMDEzYjgz?= =?UTF-8?B?NDJkPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mecdec31b77bfe5c013b8342d:1:DWvHbSlpLu7Nkk9M-YMippXE2oLua8MTCoAyNqD59b0 --16434994001.fdB9BE4cb.73427 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:36:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What I meant was that there is no sense in sharing the code for a special p= urpose kiosk app. For people who are interested search for=20 gpl infringement tv boxes You will find many examples of companies who took gpl too lightly and got s= ued by FSF. The more users a product has which used GPL without making the = code available the higher the risk gets that they get sued. FSF isn't as we= ak as many think they are.=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mecdec= 31b77bfe5c013b8342d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16434994001.fdB9BE4cb.73427 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 18:36:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What I meant was that there is no sense in sha= ring the code for a special purpose kiosk app.

=
For people who are interested search for

=
gpl infringement tv boxes

You will fi= nd many examples of companies who took gpl too lightly and got sued by FSF.= The more users a product has which used GPL without making the code availa= ble the higher the risk gets that they get sued. FSF isn't as weak as m= any think they are.
9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 X-ME-VSCause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrfeeggdduudduucdltddurdegudehrddttd dmucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgf nhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttd enucenucfjughrpegjfhfhfffkuffvtgesthdtredttddtjeenucfhrhhomhephhhirhho uceovdefhhhirhhosehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedtveekve ffvdeiieetuedvgffhudekhfeltdevhefgfeekleffheelhedtvdeigfenucffohhmrghi nhepthhophhitggsohigrdgtohhmnecukfhppedvtdelrdekhedrvddujedrgeegnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthepvddtledrkeehrddvudej rdeggedphhgvlhhopehmrghilhdqvhhsuddqfheggedrghhoohhglhgvrdgtohhmpdhmrg hilhhfrhhomhepoedvfehhihhrohesghhmrghilhdrtghomheq X-ME-VSScore: 0 X-ME-VSCategory: clean Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use '23hiro@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx1.topicbox.com; 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Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:08:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:612c:4c4:b0:287:6dd5:bed9 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:08:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <16434994000.2BA5.73427@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> <16434994000.2BA5.73427@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 01:08:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: c492cdc4-8160-11ec-a5cf-eaa3bb13ae09 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYWEwYzIzNTE5MWQwNDllOGFlYWU4?= =?UTF-8?B?MjAwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Maa0c235191d049e8aeae8200:1:LYH8ti2DnlZL3LpBbwuTxOwA5KMvmJ8MLDcowvUx4bQ even if it won't be used, it can still serve as example. there's sense in that for some people. there aren't many real-world products/solutions based on plan9, so people who are interested to learn from others don't have so much choice. every addition can be potentially useful for somebody in the community. no harm done generally, as long as you give no false hopes... as i said, users tend to find unexpected, unintended ways of making use of things. On 1/30/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > What I meant was that there is no sense in sharing the code for a special > purpose kiosk app. >=20 > For people who are interested search for >=20 > gpl infringement tv boxes >=20 > You will find many examples of companies who took gpl too lightly and got > sued by FSF. The more users a product has which used GPL without making t= he > code available the higher the risk gets that they get sued. FSF isn't as > weak as many think they are. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Maa0c2= 35191d049e8aeae8200 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 25728 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2022 01:45:37 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2022 01:45:37 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D59A367BB for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 20:45:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM6750785ec749b2e318804a0f.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 976EA14792D6; 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Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:45:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> <16434994000.2BA5.73427@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: From: ron minnich Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:45:02 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 47d4e070-816e-11ec-a0ec-c3572ff20758 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NNjc1MDc4NWVjNzQ5YjJlMzE4ODA0?= =?UTF-8?B?YTBmPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M6750785ec749b2e318804a0f:1:D2KEioJd_46idP0J8iw1OOnDDticGooU6AEgXodQPdA "Why do you think p9f asked for a relicensing of plan9 while it was already gpl licensed a few years ago ? Both are redistributable but the MIT version is also usable for closed source commercial projects while the GPL version is not. Does this matter ? Yes of course it matters for people or companies. Its sometimes amusing to see developers taking legal issues lightly." A little historical note here, speaking as the person who got both those releases done. The late jmk and I labored over a period of many months in 2013 to get Plan 9 out under a BSD license. In the end, the copyright holder at that time required that we distribute it, via UC Berkeley, under the GPL. No choice. It was that or nothing. Those negotiations involved many people, and it almost did not happen at all. The p9f process was not a relicensing, it was a transfer of ownership of the code. One condition of the transfer, was that the GPL was explicitly named as a license we should not use. All agreed that the MIT license was a good one. So it's not really correct to say anyone asked for a relicensing to this or that specific license. The choice of license was always under the control of whoever owned Bell Labs, and the code base, at that time. ron On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote: > > even if it won't be used, it can still serve as example. there's sense > in that for some people. > > there aren't many real-world products/solutions based on plan9, so > people who are interested to learn from others don't have so much > choice. > every addition can be potentially useful for somebody in the community. > no harm done generally, as long as you give no false hopes... > > as i said, users tend to find unexpected, unintended ways of making > use of things. > > On 1/30/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > > What I meant was that there is no sense in sharing the code for a speci= al > > purpose kiosk app. > > > > For people who are interested search for > > > > gpl infringement tv boxes > > > > You will find many examples of companies who took gpl too lightly and g= ot > > sued by FSF. The more users a product has which used GPL without making= the > > code available the higher the risk gets that they get sued. FSF isn't as > > weak as many think they are. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M67507= 85ec749b2e318804a0f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29692 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2022 02:18:41 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2022 02:18:41 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4E436D20 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 21:18:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM7727dcecedf37178853eb7de.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id E5524147A5CB; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 21:18:39 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=d3fM/g0LJxs3+9/8aMPOfA0FnTfrbOPGaG6wlmlRpRo=; b=CsQwDsPuR9ok 76w9Ybj3AkIJewPZm++XVQxkdDI3pXvOfNNEs0enaesoqtzJCVNH+t/FeU7GPfVm kYE4Kg7UIs8KpBzXNkgGZVS8SJjgd8CaVVUre7rrP+7l6WfaXvxtEF2JhsO05Mq4 FasExd+wp5OODcFkVf5RBCMhkkU0YK4= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16435091140.eDE43962.999357@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> <16434994000.2BA5.73427@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 21:18:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16435091141.CF5Ed8d1.999357 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: ed6214b4-8172-11ec-b027-33da212d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NNzcyN2RjZWNlZGYzNzE3ODg1M2Vi?= =?UTF-8?B?N2RlPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M7727dcecedf37178853eb7de:1:2T_oSrhrI7AiO4uv7V_KvO5qvzfD_ku-HCXlmEbN-gs --16435091141.CF5Ed8d1.999357 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 21:18:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 2:45 AM, ron minnich wrote: > The late jmk and I labored over a period of many months in 2013 to get Plan 9 out under a BSD license. In the end, the copyright holder at that time required that we distribute it, via UC Berkeley, under the GPL. No choice. It was that or nothing. Those negotiations involved many people, and it almost did not happen at all. As far as I recall OpenBSD (Theo dR) was interested in BSD licensed compile= rs at that time and that didn't happen.=20 On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 2:45 AM, ron minnich wrote: > The p9f process was not a relicensing, it was a transfer of ownership of the code. One condition of the transfer, was that the GPL was explicitly named as a license we should not use. All agreed that the MIT license was a good one. Thanks for this choice and your efforts during those negotiations. I only read about the expectations from BSD projects which were hoping to g= et an alternative Compiler for GCC. But that didn't happen at that time.=20 Thank you for clarifying things sorry if I made wrong assumptions. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M7727d= cecedf37178853eb7de Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16435091141.CF5Ed8d1.999357 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 21:18:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 2:45 AM, ron mi= nnich wrote:
The late jmk and I labore= d over a period of many months in 2013 to get Plan 9 out under a BSD license. In the end, the copyright holder at that time required that we distribute it, via UC Berkeley, under the GPL. No choice. It was that or nothing. Those negotiations involved many people, and it almost did not happen at all.
As far as I recall OpenBSD (Theo dR) was interested in BSD l= icensed compilers at that time and that didn't happen.

On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 2:45 AM, ron minnich wrote= :
The p9f process was not a relicensin= g, it was a transfer of ownership of the code. One condition of the transfer, was that the GPL was explicitly named as a license we should not use. All agreed that the MIT license was a good one.

Thanks = for this choice and your efforts during those negotiations.

I only read about the expectations from BSD projects whic= h were hoping to get an alternative Compiler for GCC. But that didn't h= appen at that time.

Thank you for clarify= ing things sorry if I made wrong assumptions.
9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:55:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from cauchy.polynum.local (89.121.198.77.rev.sfr.net [77.198.121.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by msfrf2640.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:55:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from cauchy.polynum.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cauchy.polynum.local (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 20U7tlFD000264 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:55:48 +0100 (CET) Received: (from tlaronde@localhost) by cauchy.polynum.local (8.15.2/8.14.9/Submit) id 20U7tlbn000628 for 9fans@9fans.net; Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:55:47 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: cauchy.polynum.local: tlaronde set sender to thierry.laronde@sfr.fr using -f Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:55:47 +0100 From: tlaronde@polynum.com To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-ID: References: <16434842210.Ac93ca.881080@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 0f38103c-81a2-11ec-98d9-85f038476b12 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYzVjMTQzYmE0ZDJkZTM2M2NmZjhl?= =?UTF-8?B?YzAyPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mc5c143ba4d2de363cff8ec02:1:5pwFH-7h2sZOwytaUbj2_BLOEsDFbwSyfAMLEdnEbbU Le Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 09:48:47PM +0100, hiro a =C3=A9crit : > > I personally would say using page for displaying pdf or ps is dangerous= and > > makes a distribution depending on this feature highly dangerous for > > developers. >=20 > yes, it's very dangerous in terms of licensing. i suggest you rewrite > ghostscript as gs/pdf reading ability is very important for most users > (even for our own docs). >=20 If I have made the kerTeX distribution, it is also with the (remote) aim to have a typographical (and drawing too with a modified MetaPost) system not under GPL and being able to generate an enhanced DVI that could be transformed with kerTeX own means. I.e. the goals are: 1) To have a very limited, in size, in code language (C with a limited dependency on a restricted subset of POSIX.2 like utilities for scripting), in license (BSD like or MIT---Prote), in dependencies (none but a libc and the limited POSIX.2 utilities subset), typographical/drawing system able to render both system documentation (including manual) and user's writing (including LaTeX); 2) That the system be self-contained: providing everything, including fonts and till the production of a rendering;=20 3) The the system be like a "hosted" typographical system, meaning that every extension ("package") be handled by this system, whatever the OS it is installed upon---no billions of packages versions for every OS, but only one package for kerTeX, installing the same way on any OS. A lot as already being done, the latest piece added being a "patch" (change file) to TeX so that the latest LaTeX can be dumped with TeX (LaTeX now requires both the e-TeX extensions and supplementary primitives not present in TeX). This is in the same spirit as e-TeX and is called Prote. The lacking piece is the end: converting DVI to something else than PS and extending DVI to include drawing primitives so that there is a "MetaPost" generating DVI (Metadraw). The other points are already addressed. FWIW, --=20 Thierry Laronde http://www.kergis.com/ http://kertex.kergis.com/ http://www.sbfa.fr/ Key fingerprint =3D 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mc5c14= 3ba4d2de363cff8ec02 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 19230 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2022 13:44:18 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2022 13:44:18 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F6E1AE55 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:44:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMa1bb971f183183e809d2ee6d.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 445EA1483672; Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:44:16 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=6Q8xVSFDcZNo6+ctHtJSlwX6vNMx0TDmXa+WUd0toP4=; b=fRFmV8XgfkJw nglnTmcIyMqbFIO7KqVr/PKfpP31DdoBgQOpjvRHExGwO1mVu8HJCFi32IADnhJV xnyHPZcU4uO2tR7CgUikhU8hDNUA52qTOI5vh6uxukpC84tqNr71+Tn2xKOkQVtx KDrhkvNwZPDnFw9MqKSunnhPrIhTMTQ= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16435502450.AdbA0FB.623132@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: References: <16434842210.Ac93ca.881080@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:44:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16435502451.Da81adFD.623132 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b14b7154-81d2-11ec-a175-1ef4272d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYTFiYjk3MWYxODMxODNlODA5ZDJl?= =?UTF-8?B?ZTZkPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Ma1bb971f183183e809d2ee6d:1:YgO3p3GJwGJFmGb4f4ygLZV8RNPEUaDwwJ43ovoXF5k --16435502451.Da81adFD.623132 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:44:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 8:55 AM, tlaronde wrote: > The lacking piece is the end: converting DVI to something else than PS and extending DVI to include drawing primitives so that there is a "MetaPost" generating DVI (Metadraw). The other points are already addressed. Perhaps xdvi is a good start point to understand how to convert dvi to raw = images. dvi isn't a ready to display format you have to prepare the missing= glyphs (fonts). Knuth has provided a converter to make dvi files human rea= dable and you task is to interpret this output. If you take a viewer as a s= tart point you could store the fineshed rendering in a file instead of savi= ng that. Like ps dvi is also a virtual machine code but much simpler. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Ma1bb9= 71f183183e809d2ee6d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16435502451.Da81adFD.623132 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 08:44:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 8:55 AM, tlaron= de wrote:
The lacking piece is the end= : converting DVI to something else than PS and extending DVI to include drawing primitives so that there is a "MetaPost" generating DVI (Metadraw). The other points are already addressed.

Perhaps xdvi is a good s= tart point to understand how to convert dvi to raw images. dvi isn't a = ready to display format you have to prepare the missing glyphs (fonts). Knu= th has provided a converter to make dvi files human readable and you task i= s to interpret this output. If you take a viewer as a start point you could= store the fineshed rendering in a file instead of saving that. Like ps dvi= is also a virtual machine code but much simpler.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <16435502450.AdbA0FB.623132@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 6cdd797a-81d4-11ec-97ff-cf49d57f59a8 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NOWNkNjQ4MjYzNDJmNmI5MWY0OTFm?= =?UTF-8?B?NjVmPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M9cd64826342f6b91f491f65f:1:n7v5A7G7CsQIf9lOOHEm_BmuaWap_CeW-nn-qjx8DHs Le Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 08:44:05AM -0500, ibrahim via 9fans a =C3=A9crit : > On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 8:55 AM, tlaronde wrote: > > The lacking piece is the end: converting DVI to something else than PS > and extending DVI to include drawing primitives so that there is a > "MetaPost" generating DVI (Metadraw). The other points are already > addressed. >=20 > Perhaps xdvi is a good start point to understand how to convert dvi to ra= w images. dvi isn't a ready to display format you have to prepare the missi= ng glyphs (fonts). Knuth has provided a converter to make dvi files human r= eadable and you task is to interpret this output. If you take a viewer as a= start point you could store the fineshed rendering in a file instead of sa= ving that. Like ps dvi is also a virtual machine code but much simpler. There is nothing difficult in the task per se. But when adding a new block of DVI commands, it has to be done with some care. METAFONT is also a rasterizer, so the fundamental bits are already there to obtain a rasterized image. But there are, too, converters to develop to translate the glyphes shapes of alien fonts in something METAFONT can understand---TeX only uses the metrics informations, it doesn't care about what is drawn in the boxes, this is why one can use easily PS fonts with TeX; rendering, when what has to be drawn is involved, is another story... And xdvi is the perfect example of the problem: it has a myriad of dependencies. --=20 Thierry Laronde http://www.kergis.com/ http://kertex.kergis.com/ http://www.sbfa.fr/ Key fingerprint =3D 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M9cd64= 826342f6b91f491f65f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 10873 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2022 21:00:55 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2022 21:00:55 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9329D1DD51 for ; 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Sun, 30 Jan 2022 13:00:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> <16434994000.2BA5.73427@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16435091140.eDE43962.999357@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: <16435091140.eDE43962.999357@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: ron minnich Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 13:00:29 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: b2585c0a-820f-11ec-b795-e64e5b9d6fb0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMTZiYzQyYjE5YzBhYmM2MmQ4ZmNi?= =?UTF-8?B?NjAzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M16bc42b19c0abc62d8fcb603:1:lNgf450bxcs5KjS9lAp3F70orcl9jvVhLparh2t2n_Y On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 6:19 PM ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > As far as I recall OpenBSD (Theo dR) was interested in BSD licensed compi= lers at that time and that didn't happen. That happened about 10 years earlier. The effort I am talking about with jmk was 2013; the dustup with Theo was circa 2003: See this discussion: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.plan9/c/0j5Xa_Bu_fs ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M16bc4= 2b19c0abc62d8fcb603 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 21063 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2022 13:10:17 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Feb 2022 13:10:17 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A68718C5C for ; 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="leimy2k@mac.com"; helo=st43p00im-ztfb10073301.me.com; client-ip=17.58.63.186 Received: from st43p00im-ztfb10073301.me.com (st43p00im-ztfb10073301.me.com [17.58.63.186]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:26:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from leimy2k@mac.com) Received: from smtpclient.apple (pool-74-99-165-73.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net [74.99.165.73]) by st43p00im-ztfb10073301.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 706DD800C60 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:26:52 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:26:51 -0500 Message-Id: <56B4257D-6F93-401F-8ED3-8B9DC33504F3@mac.com> References: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19D50) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: =?UTF-8?Q?vendor=3Dfsecure_engine=3D1.1.170-22c6f66c430a71ce266a39bfe25bc?= =?UTF-8?Q?2903e8d5c8f:6.0.138,18.0.816,17.0.605.474.0000000_definitions?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3D2022-01-17=5F04:2020-02-14=5F02,2022-01-17=5F04,2020-01-23?= =?UTF-8?Q?=5F02_signatures=3D0?= X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=751 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2201290091 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: moderate: reply to existing message Topicbox-Message-UUID: 847cf2ec-810f-11ec-bb9b-c558e810f57d Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZjQ3ZTc4Mzg3NTI4ZGI3YjQyZjIz?= =?UTF-8?B?MWIzPg==?= From: "David Leimbach via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mf47e78387528db7b42f231b3:0:evqNkb31mp3iXU_WBrFUvfSX4QwVroUf8VNNZbxSKvE > On Jan 29, 2022, at 8:03 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: >=20 > And I believe that the reason why NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD are not as wid= e spread as Linux was the lack of a compiler suite conforming to the BSD li= cense For some people it=E2=80=99s because they didn=E2=80=99t have a math coproc= essor and Linux didn=E2=80=99t need one. For others it was the AT&T lawsuit. I haven=E2=80=99t ever heard the compiler tool chain was a big reason, but = I=E2=80=99d be interested to hear your perspective here. 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Tue, 01 Feb 2022 06:12:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <56B4257D-6F93-401F-8ED3-8B9DC33504F3@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <56B4257D-6F93-401F-8ED3-8B9DC33504F3@mac.com> From: Dan Cross Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:12:08 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000000000000b66e2805d6f57e04 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 0a11cef4-8369-11ec-95b2-e01854d6c5cd Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMTZiNzJmMmI2Yzg4MzVhM2VhNGVh?= =?UTF-8?B?NGE3Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M16b72f2b6c8835a3ea4ea4a7:1:ir0LJqrunMZ_i3Nt0MN1Mt7M3wMl66af10ICGl7dToM --000000000000b66e2805d6f57e04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 8:10 AM David Leimbach via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > > On Jan 29, 2022, at 8:03 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > > > > And I believe that the reason why NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD are not as > wide spread as Linux was the lack of a compiler suite conforming to the B= SD > license > > For some people it=E2=80=99s because they didn=E2=80=99t have a math copr= ocessor and Linux > didn=E2=80=99t need one. For others it was the AT&T lawsuit. > > I haven=E2=80=99t ever heard the compiler tool chain was a big reason, bu= t I=E2=80=99d be > interested to hear your perspective here. GCC can produce code of any > license. This isn't really on-topic for 9fans, but I find this hard to believe. Linux used the exact same compiler suite, and became wildly successful while the BSD distributions mostly stagnated; certainly, the BSDs never grew at the rate or reached the levels of popularity that Linux has attained: it wasn't the license on the toolchain. I believe that David is right that it was a combination of running on really low-end hardware (in the early days, Torvalds accepted patches for just about anything), and a similarly low barrier to entry (others elsewhere have quipped about having to appease, "the Gods of BSD" to get anything into those systems) and the AT&T lawsuit, which was at best misguided but scared people off of BSD. - Dan C. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M16b72= f2b6c8835a3ea4ea4a7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --000000000000b66e2805d6f57e04 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 8:10 A= M David Leimbach via 9fans <9fans@9fa= ns.net> wrote:
> On Jan 29, 2022, at 8:03 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>
> And I believe that the reason why NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD are not as = wide spread as Linux was the lack of a compiler suite conforming to the BSD= license

For some people it’s because they didn’t have a math coprocesso= r and Linux didn’t need one. For others it was the AT&T lawsuit.<= br />
I haven’t ever heard the compiler tool chain was a big reason, but I&= rsquo;d be interested to hear your perspective here. GCC can produce code o= f any license.

This isn't really on-t= opic for 9fans, but I find this hard to believe. Linux used the exact same = compiler suite, and became wildly successful while the BSD distributions mo= stly stagnated; certainly, the BSDs never grew at the rate or reached the l= evels of popularity that Linux has attained: it wasn't the license on t= he toolchain.

I believe that David is right that= it was a combination of running on really low-end hardware (in the early d= ays, Torvalds accepted patches for just about anything), and a similarly lo= w barrier to entry (others elsewhere have quipped about having to appease, = "the Gods of BSD" to get anything into those systems) and the AT&= amp;T lawsuit, which was at best misguided but scared people off of BSD.

- Dan C.
9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
= --000000000000b66e2805d6f57e04-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3017 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2022 15:08:15 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Feb 2022 15:08:15 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E471991C for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:08:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM3273bb43a0299b4d186eef36.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 51B9B14ECDA8; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:08:14 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=PPfISyxl+lWJisSSfozxt899CEcVaIxDs1j24bPiGgA=; b=fgA4/NlWhsdo HkyBBYxteN//6p3EMouqv3iPL7Xjws9PqdH+iOMlNNm9oZqxGk4j78kqOAZlaJMp d81c8nfVM9OpHJaB3BXiwkwugVAQRUvwY2ZbyfO6fGsly2uFiPkroyzTOsK77l+B nFy9T+2Hhe7FikD2FoGbhpu431w+Ii4= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16437280880.B3cF82.11186@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> <16434994000.2BA5.73427@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16435091140.eDE43962.999357@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:08:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16437280881.F434d0.11186 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: c3bcb3c6-8370-11ec-b2ae-cd369134e1fa Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMzI3M2JiNDNhMDI5OWI0ZDE4NmVl?= =?UTF-8?B?ZjM2Pg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M3273bb43a0299b4d186eef36:1:_iB6NK_p_bxUbOQi2STGIdC4c10Je-cZJXElNt2uM6c --16437280881.F434d0.11186 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:08:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 10:00 PM, ron minnich wrote: > That happened about 10 years earlier. The effort I am talking about with jmk was 2013; the dustup with Theo was circa 2003: Thanks for sharing those facts. On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 3:26 PM, David Leimbach wrote: > I haven=E2=80=99t ever heard the compiler tool chain was a big reason, bu= t I=E2=80=99d be interested to hear your perspective here. GCC can produce = code of any license. Until the BSD systems switched to llvm even the most basic installment was = depending on gcc. The integrated system compiler was gpl'ed and on a unix s= ystem where the c compiler was the most important tool to achive portabilit= y this did never seem right. On Tuesday, 1 February 2022, at 3:12 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > This isn't really on-topic for 9fans, but I find this hard to believe. Li= nux used the exact same compiler suite, and became wildly successful while = the BSD distributions mostly stagnated; certainly, the BSDs never grew at t= he rate or reached the levels of popularity that Linux has attained: it was= n't the license on the toolchain. Berkeley stopped their distribution of BSD systems right after they were fo= rced to remove the toolchain. The last releases were 4.3 and 4.4 lite. Then= the project got forked. It led to a stop in development. I personally beli= eve that this was the main reason behind the BSD's to lose their charm. If = you read about the reasoning why as an example Minix or even plan9 got thei= r own toolchains I think you can read between the lines that the lack or th= e existence of a toolchain with the right license is far more important tha= n many believe. Of course this is only my personal opinion and probably I'm misinterpreting= things. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M3273b= b43a0299b4d186eef36 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16437280881.F434d0.11186 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 10:08:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 10:00 PM, ron m= innich wrote:
That happened about 10 y= ears earlier. The effort I am talking about with jmk was 2013; the dustup with Theo was circa 2003:
<= div>
Thanks for sharing those facts.

=
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 3:26 PM, David Leimbach wrote:<= br />
I haven’t ever heard the compile= r tool chain was a big reason, but I’d be interested to hear your per= spective here. GCC can produce code of any license.
=
Until the BSD systems switched to llvm even the most basic= installment was depending on gcc. The integrated system compiler was gpl&#= 39;ed and on a unix system where the c compiler was the most important tool= to achive portability this did never seem right.

On Tuesday, 1 February 2022, at 3:12 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
This isn't really on-topic for 9fans, but I find this hard = to believe. Linux used the exact same compiler suite, and became wildly suc= cessful while the BSD distributions mostly stagnated; certainly, the BSDs n= ever grew at the rate or reached the levels of popularity that Linux has at= tained: it wasn't the license on the toolchain.
=

Berkeley stopped their distribution of B= SD systems right after they were forced to remove the toolchain. The last r= eleases were 4.3 and 4.4 lite. Then the project got forked. It led to a sto= p in development. I personally believe that this was the main reason behind= the BSD's to lose their charm. If you read about the reasoning why as = an example Minix or even plan9 got their own toolchains I think you can rea= d between the lines that the lack or the existence of a toolchain with the = right license is far more important than many believe.

Of course this is only my personal opinion and probably I'= m misinterpreting things.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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Tue, 01 Feb 2022 09:06:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434919380.1068C1061.56471@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434950120.e286ed8c.18342@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <2993bf0b-ca39-49f6-8b32-d126279f859f@sirjofri.de> <16434994000.2BA5.73427@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16435091140.eDE43962.999357@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16437280880.B3cF82.11186@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: <16437280880.B3cF82.11186@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> From: Dan Cross Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:06:09 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00000000000010987405d6f7ed66 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: c74762ac-8384-11ec-9e43-9ecedbb9905f Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NN2Y0NWNjMjE2YTdiOWY4MDU5MzQ0?= =?UTF-8?B?Yzg1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M7f45cc216a7b9f8059344c85:1:qZO_xDElv75I7gA124fPQNzeeWEA8I8FTAaw7uZ4Ops --00000000000010987405d6f7ed66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 10:08 AM ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > On Tuesday, 1 February 2022, at 3:12 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > > This isn't really on-topic for 9fans, but I find this hard to believe. > Linux used the exact same compiler suite, and became wildly successful > while the BSD distributions mostly stagnated; certainly, the BSDs never > grew at the rate or reached the levels of popularity that Linux has > attained: it wasn't the license on the toolchain. > > Berkeley stopped their distribution of BSD systems right after they were > forced to remove the toolchain. The last releases were 4.3 and 4.4 lite. > Hmm, no, that's not quite right. 4.3BSD was in 1986; 4.4-Lite2 was in 1995: nineish years later, with lots of intervening activity (Tahoe, Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite, etc). Perhaps you meant to write 4.4 and 4.4-Lite? Anyway, the toolchain switch had little to do with CSRG shutting down. The reality there was that Unix stopped being interesting for an academic department to continue supporting like EECS at UCB was with CSRG and BSD: this was all spelled out in the 4.4BSD announcement. As Bostic put it, BSD was always a community effort, but after 4.4, it just wasn't going to grow within UCB: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.unix.bsd/c/hZYO7xTDqQ8/m/NE-S-HWH9-wJ They also understood that GCC was a better compiler than PCC was at the time: with PCC on the VAX, they had post-processing steps implementing peephole optimizations with shell scripts, and GCC just generated better code. It also implemented most of the ANSI standard, which PCC did not. In other words, there were technical reasons for switching to GCC beyond just the license. Indeed, the setup document says, "Most 4.3BSD binaries may be used with 4.4BSD in the course of the conversion. It is desirable to recompile local sources after the conversion, as the new compiler (GCC) provides superior code optimization." ( https://docs.freebsd.org/44doc/smm/01.setup/paper.pdf) Then the project got forked. It led to a stop in development. I personally > believe that this was the main reason behind the BSD's to lose their char= m. > By "forked" do you mean the Jolitz's porting it to the 386? That was independent of what happened with CSRG shutting down, and neither of those had much to do with the GPL or adopting GCC as the system compiler. This also ignores a lot of other developments: the VAX stopped being _the_ dominant platform of the Internet, there was a lot more choice for reasonable Unix distributions from e.g. workstation vendors, many organizations stopped looking at Unix as primarily a research system which lead to the rise of standards bodies like IEEE with POSIX, which subsequently lessened the need for something like BSD as a quasi-standard for the likes of DARPA. Meanwhile, and the PC platform became huge, and people who just wanted Unix on cheap machines suddenly had Linux as a free working alternative that was "good enough". BSDi cost a lot of money for an individual (around $1000 USD, if I recall correctly), was embroiled in a lawsuit with AT&T (the outcome of which was not at all certain) and with Linux you had a reasonable expectation that someone would help you boot it on your toaster -- or at least accept the patches if you did it yourself -- and you didn't have to put with with some of the "big" personalities in the traditional Unix world. If you read about the reasoning why as an example Minix or even plan9 got > their own toolchains I think you can read between the lines that the lack > or the existence of a toolchain with the right license is far more > important than many believe. > Plan 9 got its own toolchain because that was part of the project: how would one evolve a language like C and a compiler/assembler/linker suite to make it more pleasant for building the sort of holistic system that plan9 became, and how to accommodate cross-compilation and development in a heterogenous hardware environment: indeed, many of the early plan9 design choices were motivated by similar concerns. The license had little, if anything, to do with it, and being an "open source" system was not a primary goal of plan9 when the compilers were written. I can't really imagine that GCC was given any serious consideration as a compiler for plan9 simply on its merits, if indeed it was given any consideration at all: at the time, it fulfilled a completely different purpose. You may have a point with respect to the license mattering for the original Minix, but bear in mind that the ACK predates GCC, and Tanenbaum was building a pedagogical system, not a production system: he actually needed to be able to distribute the toolchain with the Minix educational materials. He probably could have used GCC just as well, but it's clear he started Minix a few years ahead of the first public release, and GCC wasn't available then. Since he already had ACK, it was logical to use it. Of course this is only my personal opinion and probably I'm misinterpreting > things. > I think, bluntly, this ignores a lot of the actual history and is an example of confirmation bias in an analysis of the use of GPL in OSS OS projects, or license toolchains more generally. Look at the complaints from the OpenBSD people when the Clang/LLVM license changed; yet, they continue to ship a pretty recent clang version despite the "unacceptability" of the Apache 2.0 license, and let's be honest: they probably will for a long time to come. That said, I also think you're perfectly within your rights to ship your kiosk application as a closed-source system if you want to, despite protestations to the contrary. - Dan C. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M7f45c= c216a7b9f8059344c85 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --00000000000010987405d6f7ed66 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 10:08 = AM ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
On Tuesday, 1 February 2= 022, at 3:12 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
This isn't really on-topic for 9fans, but I find= this hard to believe. Linux used the exact same compiler suite, and became= wildly successful while the BSD distributions mostly stagnated; certainly,= the BSDs never grew at the rate or reached the levels of popularity that L= inux has attained: it wasn't the license on the toolchain.
<= /div>
Berkeley stopped their distribution of BSD systems r= ight after they were forced to remove the toolchain. The last releases were= 4.3 and 4.4 lite.

Hmm, no, t= hat's not quite right. 4.3BSD was in 1986; 4.4-Lite2 was in 1995: ninei= sh years later, with lots of intervening activity (Tahoe, Reno, Net/1, Net/= 2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite, etc). Perhaps you meant to write 4.4 and 4.4-Lite?

<= div>

Anyway, the toolchain switch had little to do with CSR= G shutting down. The reality there was that Unix stopped being interesting = for an academic department to continue supporting like EECS at UCB was= with CSRG and BSD: this was all spelled out in the 4.4BSD announcement. As= Bostic put it, BSD was always a community effort, but after 4.4, it just w= asn't going to grow within UCB: https://= groups.google.com/g/comp.unix.bsd/c/hZYO7xTDqQ8/m/NE-S-HWH9-wJ

They also understood that GCC was a better compiler than= PCC was at the time: with PCC on the VAX, they had post-processing steps i= mplementing peephole optimizations with shell scripts, and GCC just generat= ed better code. It also implemented most of the ANSI standard, which PCC di= d not. In other words, there were technical reasons for switching to GCC be= yond just the license. Indeed, the setup document says, "Most 4.3BSD binaries may be used with 4.4BSD in the course of the conversion. It is des= irable to recompile local sources after the conversion, as the new compiler (GCC) provides superior code opti= mization." (https://docs.freebsd.org/44doc/smm/01.setup/paper.pdf)

T= hen the project got forked. It led to a stop in development. I personally b= elieve that this was the main reason behind the BSD's to lose their cha= rm.

By "forked" do = you mean the Jolitz's porting it to the 386? That was independent of wh= at happened with CSRG shutting down, and neither of those had much to do wi= th the GPL or adopting GCC as the system compiler.

This also ignores a lot of other developments: the VAX stopped being _th= e_ dominant platform of the Internet, there was a lot more choice for reaso= nable Unix distributions from e.g. workstation vendors, many organizations = stopped looking at Unix as primarily a research system which lead to the ri= se of standards bodies like IEEE with POSIX, which subsequently lessened th= e need for something like BSD as a quasi-standard for the likes of DARPA. M= eanwhile, and the PC platform became huge, and people who just wanted Unix = on cheap machines suddenly had Linux as a free working alternative that was= "good enough". BSDi cost a lot of money for an individual (aroun= d $1000 USD, if I recall correctly), was embroiled in a lawsuit with AT&= ;T (the outcome of which was not at all certain) and with Linux you had a r= easonable expectation that someone would help you boot it on your toaster -= - or at least accept the patches if you did it yourself -- and you didn'= ;t have to put with with some of the "big" personalities in the t= raditional Unix world.

If you read about the reasoning why as an exa= mple Minix or even plan9 got their own toolchains I think you can read betw= een the lines that the lack or the existence of a toolchain with the right = license is far more important than many believe.

Plan 9 got its own toolchain because that was par= t of the project: how would one evolve a language like C and a compiler/ass= embler/linker suite to make it more pleasant for building the sort of holis= tic system that plan9 became, and how to accommodate cross-compilation and = development in a heterogenous hardware environment: indeed, many of the ear= ly plan9 design choices were motivated by similar concerns. The license had= little, if anything, to do with it, and being an "open source" s= ystem was not a primary goal of plan9 when the compilers were written. I ca= n't really imagine that GCC was given any serious consideration as a co= mpiler for plan9 simply on its merits, if indeed it was given any considera= tion at all: at the time, it fulfilled a completely different purpose.

You may have a point with respect to the license mat= tering for the original Minix, but bear in mind that the ACK predates GCC, = and Tanenbaum was building a pedagogical system, not a production system: h= e actually needed to be able to distribute the toolchain with the Minix edu= cational materials. He probably could have used GCC just as well, but it= 9;s clear he started Minix a few years ahead of the first public release, a= nd GCC wasn't available then. Since he already had ACK, it was logical = to use it.

Of course this is only my personal opinion and probably I'= m misinterpreting things.

I think, = bluntly, this ignores a lot of the actual history and is an example of conf= irmation bias in an analysis of the use of GPL in OSS OS projects, or licen= se toolchains more generally. Look at the complaints from the OpenBSD peopl= e when the Clang/LLVM license changed; yet, they continue to ship a pretty = recent clang version despite the "unacceptability" of the Apache = 2.0 license, and let's be honest: they probably will for a long time to= come.

That said, I also think you're perfec= tly within your rights to ship your kiosk application as a closed-source sy= stem if you want to, despite protestations to the contrary.

- Dan C.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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Tue, 01 Feb 2022 14:47:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a54:2090:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Feb 2022 14:47:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <56B4257D-6F93-401F-8ED3-8B9DC33504F3@mac.com> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 23:47:28 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: f2dc0676-83b0-11ec-bbb0-d3913e70818e Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZDQ0ZmUyNzkwNzZkZmZjZDFmNjc2?= =?UTF-8?B?YWIwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Md44fe279076dffcd1f676ab0:1:FVj24Bl7M2SztiW7-S9FwW1KxBi1ExWWgm3-87t-9qk > I believe that David is right that it was a combination of running on > really low-end hardware (in the early days, Torvalds accepted patches for > just about anything), and a similarly low barrier to entry (others > elsewhere have quipped about having to appease, "the Gods of BSD" to get > anything into those systems) and the AT&T lawsuit, which was at best > misguided but scared people off of BSD. I always explain it the following way to the non-techies: You've heard of the appstore and how everybody wants to replicate apple's "business model" behind it. Well, it turns out they didn't come up with it. The true inventor was Linus Torvalds. Linux is an "appstore" for bad driver software. Maybe the first time in human civilization where something so broken by design has become the core underlying business plan and gained so much interest to succeed at such scale and against all rationality. Apple had it all easy after this proof of concept. They sold half-ripe hardware, with nearly none of the potential exploited by software, and relied on mostly unvetted third-party submissions to fix that in "apps". 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mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=ReliableID.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=wes@ReliableID.com; dmarc=pass header.from= Received: from [192.168.4.31] (c-24-218-111-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.218.111.188]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1643808168220274.0778502293448; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 05:22:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <0d0312a8-ebc0-7b56-ef68-8a6264019fc3@ReliableID.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 08:22:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Content-Language: en-US To: 9fans@9fans.net References: <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <56B4257D-6F93-401F-8ED3-8B9DC33504F3@mac.com> From: Wes Kussmaul In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ZohoMailClient: External Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3d0daed2-842b-11ec-95af-fcd2386ba8e4 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMWYxMDIzNTUwZTRmODZlMTMwNzdm?= =?UTF-8?B?NzZiPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M1f1023550e4f86e13077f76b:1:YQFrMutjHUrkCzjtIcKnA1iGjUAkx7JtZ3ClTphHBBQ On 2/1/22 17:47, hiro wrote: >> I believe that David is right that it was a combination of running on >> really low-end hardware (in the early days, Torvalds accepted patches for >> just about anything), and a similarly low barrier to entry (others >> elsewhere have quipped about having to appease, "the Gods of BSD" to get >> anything into those systems) and the AT&T lawsuit, which was at best >> misguided but scared people off of BSD. > I always explain it the following way to the non-techies: > > You've heard of the appstore and how everybody wants to replicate > apple's "business model" behind it. > > Well, it turns out they didn't come up with it. > The true inventor was Linus Torvalds. > > Linux is an "appstore" for bad driver software. Maybe the first time > in human civilization where something so broken by design has become > the core underlying business plan and gained so much interest to > succeed at such scale and against all rationality. > > Apple had it all easy after this proof of concept. They sold half-ripe > hardware, with nearly none of the potential exploited by software, and > relied on mostly unvetted third-party submissions to fix that in > "apps". Worked for GNU/LINUX, makes apple rich, too. Hiro, you have absolutely hit the nail on the head. So, how do you add rationality and reliability to the=20 dpkg-app/play-store idea? 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client-ip=206.124.132.107 Received: from mimir.eigenstate.org (mimir.eigenstate.org [206.124.132.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 11:26:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ori@eigenstate.org) Received: from abbatoir.myfiosgateway.com (pool-74-108-56-225.nycmny.fios.verizon.net [74.108.56.225]) by mimir.eigenstate.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 14f0a689 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256:NO) for <9fans@9fans.net>; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 08:26:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@9fans.net Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2022 11:25:58 -0500 From: ori@eigenstate.org In-Reply-To: <0d0312a8-ebc0-7b56-ef68-8a6264019fc3@ReliableID.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: d3684496-8444-11ec-bb8c-fc103066201a Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZmQyMDNjOWNjYWRkYzNjMTIwYWNh?= =?UTF-8?B?MWIxPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mfd203c9ccaddc3c120aca1b1:1:M1p29l_25oGe7nAvkvwhZ7NInb9JTnoicf1vh4qTPgs Quoth Wes Kussmaul : >=20 > Hiro, you have absolutely hit the nail on the head. >=20 > So, how do you add rationality and reliability to the=20 > dpkg-app/play-store idea? >=20 > Answer: emulate the ways this has been done for centuries in the=20 > physical world. I'd like to think we've progressed past the point of physical violence against vendors, but perhaps you've got a point. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mfd203= c9ccaddc3c120aca1b1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11262 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2022 18:22:44 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Feb 2022 18:22:44 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B44418FD9 for ; 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Wed, 02 Feb 2022 10:22:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0d0312a8-ebc0-7b56-ef68-8a6264019fc3@ReliableID.com> In-Reply-To: From: ron minnich Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 10:22:12 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 142f976c-8455-11ec-a6fa-c5de87e85a6c Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMjg3MjgwMzg4NmFmZWE4NDAxZWY5?= =?UTF-8?B?MjIzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M2872803886afea8401ef9223:1:CzJAVm0BduYi7IUObR9NH7RylVmRmyMoXVIFUyTAn2g This one statement: "Berkeley stopped their distribution of BSD systems right after they were forced to remove the toolchain." is completely wrong. I just asked the people who were there, on TUHS, and they confirmed my memory: DARPA funding for BSD support ended in 1995, and that was probably the biggest factor in ending the UCB activities in BSD. I think it's important to verify claims with primary sources. Many of those people are still alive. On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 8:27 AM wrote: > > Quoth Wes Kussmaul : > > > > Hiro, you have absolutely hit the nail on the head. > > > > So, how do you add rationality and reliability to the > > dpkg-app/play-store idea? > > > > Answer: emulate the ways this has been done for centuries in the > > physical world. >=20 > I'd like to think we've progressed past the point > of physical violence against vendors, but perhaps > you've got a point. >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M28728= 03886afea8401ef9223 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 15897 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2022 19:00:19 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Feb 2022 19:00:19 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70ADF1B7C1 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 14:00:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mM959b3645d30c70355fd751cb.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 6C60A44584EC; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 14:00:18 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:references:in-reply-to:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=qRX7WY5gHjKxf8NwVjHWJpeBoyA0qhyksUXVfG/NtjI=; b=h9JyFfhk7b6m MCSquPlVRv0/NWn5s5k3Caly3UHi44YA1XPUK0lGIHWQWi2Vo93I6FMUQMi4kMSj zVIVsC+QjZJGIPa7edSEHaQ3479SdkY4NddxS9T0Hse1dDW/Ee72d4krNRDnBWGY kHbutCBuUQv7nyZmryq1yAHZhJ7mm64= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16438284120.eAaC0cE.31840@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <0d0312a8-ebc0-7b56-ef68-8a6264019fc3@ReliableID.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 14:00:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16438284121.7dBbe974.31840 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 59a49f7c-845a-11ec-b243-352e9134e1fa Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NOTU5YjM2NDVkMzBjNzAzNTVmZDc1?= =?UTF-8?B?MWNiPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M959b3645d30c70355fd751cb:1:4od5Nd6_XDdotZZiXJaeVkfJwW_-uthXO0YNyHRWG04 --16438284121.7dBbe974.31840 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 14:00:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wednesday, 2 February 2022, at 7:22 PM, ron minnich wrote: > This one statement: "Berkeley stopped their distribution of BSD systems right after they were forced to remove the toolchain." is completely wrong. I just asked the people who were there, on TUHS, and they confirmed my memory: DARPA funding for BSD support ended in 1995, and that was probably the biggest factor in ending the UCB activities in BSD. I think it's important to verify claims with primary sources. Many of those people are still alive. Thank you for the clearance. Looking from a distance I misinterpreted the r= eal reasons and I never met the primary sources in person. That was my inte= rpretation and as it seems it was wrong. Thank you for your effort to make = things more clear. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M959b3= 645d30c70355fd751cb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16438284121.7dBbe974.31840 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 14:00:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wednesday, 2 February 2022, at 7:22 PM, ron= minnich wrote:
This one statement: &q= uot;Berkeley stopped their distribution of BSD systems right after they were forced to remove the toolchain." is completely wrong. I just asked the people who were there, on TUHS, and they confirmed my memory: DARPA funding for BSD support ended in 1995, and that was probably the biggest factor in ending the UCB activities in BSD. I think it's important to verify claims with primary sources. Many of those people are still alive.

Thank= you for the clearance. Looking from a distance I misinterpreted the real r= easons and I never met the primary sources in person. That was my interpret= ation and as it seems it was wrong. Thank you for your effort to make thing= s more clear.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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Spillner" To: "9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: plain In-Reply-To: <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> X-Client-IP: 67.184.226.125 Message-ID: <1643988626.542516880@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/19.0.13-RC X-Classification-ID: 27cda018-20ea-46e6-be61-729c1b735d3b-1-1 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 63fbcf88-85cf-11ec-896f-d78ab4dd774f Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYzEyNGQzYzU0OGFkOGRkYmI5NWRl?= =?UTF-8?B?NTEzPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mc124d3c548ad8ddbb95de513:1:q6a2dCqcbv-hfeMwfDW0o11lVgJxPNNBJKRNcXD4sDU > There is no benefit for the students to learn how to realize such a platf= orm In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for them? = ;) ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mc124d= 3c548ad8ddbb95de513 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,URIBL_CSS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2993 invoked from network); 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Fri, 04 Feb 2022 08:17:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1643988626.542516880@apps.rackspace.com> From: Grant Defayette Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 11:17:05 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00000000000084f71605d73396dc Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: f8bb96ac-85d5-11ec-8d14-d89e96534c1b Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NMWY2MGNlMzBlMTkxMTg0ODZkNTc2?= =?UTF-8?B?MTE4Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M1f60ce30e19118486d576118:1:n7IGkDRyL1p_hnnYu0yE69ttlMVaSx1-vtykE6tcNLc --00000000000084f71605d73396dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I could see some value in students learning a truly distributed system if they are CS majors looking to specialize in scientific computing or distributed processing work but otherwise it would generally be a huge waste of their time. They would probably be far better off learning one of the modern distributed computing platforms than something that is quickly approaching 40 years old and only ever had a commercial lifespan of 4 short years. That said, I'm sure that there are plenty of more academic type computer science students that would find such a project interesting enough to throw a couple years at it. On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 10:31 AM Kent R. Spillner wrote: > > There is no benefit for the students to learn how to realize such a > platform >=20 > In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for > them? ;) >=20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M1f60c= e30e19118486d576118 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --00000000000084f71605d73396dc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I could see some value in students learning a = truly distributed system if they are CS majors looking to specialize in sci= entific computing or distributed processing work but otherwise it would gen= erally be a huge waste of their time. They would probably be far bette= r off learning one of the modern distributed computing platforms than somet= hing that is quickly approaching 40 years old and only ever had a= commercial lifespan of 4 short years. That said, I'm sure that there a= re plenty of more academic type computer science students that would find s= uch a project interesting enough to throw a couple years at it.

=
On Fri, Fe= b 4, 2022 at 10:31 AM Kent R. Spillner <sl4mmy@zerosphere.org> wrote:
> There is no benefit for the students = to learn how to realize such a platform

In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for th= em? ;)

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= --00000000000084f71605d73396dc-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,URIBL_CSS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4476 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2022 16:30:08 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Feb 2022 16:30:08 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF3A62D74A for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2022 11:30:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bounce.mMaa0df4bb413196b925180ef0.r522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa@9fans.bounce.topicbox.com) Received: by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix, from userid 1132) id 70418156FB06; Fri, 4 Feb 2022 11:30:02 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=9fans.net; h=to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:list-help:list-id :list-post:list-subscribe:reply-to:list-unsubscribe; s=dkim-1; bh=lXO/3gR60wwjXIGVUSY+PdjOsmT4pve8q4/+Fu1brG0=; b=UzwizQBzdYiC 1r01TJXFm8WNng1UQDvE8vSQHesHORW0bucaqUdPr61hsf0Ak7J37HVu9g7qJK1K e3pV3C/LE/Oer+1GxEIHxf+AKu668/hIjB0sgL7G6m9+h6GIlbfXFFI3hrUfCb3J oo6ZMi1rP8DHgdmkWao9QMjckxk2jhs= To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-Id: <16439921940.7c0Cfec.19105@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> In-Reply-To: <1643988626.542516880@apps.rackspace.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <1643988626.542516880@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 11:29:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=16439921950.BbedB7f.19105 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: af928862-85d7-11ec-a5c4-5f56282d11b0 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYWEwZGY0YmI0MTMxOTZiOTI1MTgw?= =?UTF-8?B?ZWYwPg==?= From: "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Maa0df4bb413196b925180ef0:1:EPnyYR_jVlf_9KfPPZd4n7ABxRhIJOb1-VCMjF-9N8E --16439921950.BbedB7f.19105 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 11:29:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, 4 February 2022, at 4:30 PM, Kent R. Spillner wrote: > In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for them= ? ;) My platform isn't one for teaching programing its for teaching other subjec= ts like math, electronics, statics and so on. It's neither my goal nor the = intention of such a project to teach the students how to realize such a pro= ject.=20 The suggestion that I would include the code so that someone could learn fr= om it is unrealistic. If one of those students get interested in the way I = did the whole thing they find the links for the projects I used as a baseme= nt. Neither operating system development nor programming in C for plan9 are sub= jects of my platform and so there is no benefit for my students having the = sources. If someone gets interested he/she can use the links for the used o= pen source projects and become fans of whatever they like. Perhaps some wil= l get motivated by using such a system to invest the necessary time and eff= ort. I don't hide what I used so they can become enthusiasts if they want t= o. But this platform doesn't need accompanied sources nor will the students= have direct access to a shell or the tools everything is hidden behind a s= imple kiosk app which has no other goal beside being the "envelop" for the = real information meant to be taught. =20 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Maa0df= 4bb413196b925180ef0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --16439921950.BbedB7f.19105 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 11:29:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Friday, 4 February 2022, at 4:30 PM, Kent R= . Spillner wrote:
In your experience d= o students appreciate being told what's best for them? ;)

My platform isn't one for teaching programi= ng its for teaching other subjects like math, electronics, statics and so o= n. It's neither my goal nor the intention of such a project to teach th= e students how to realize such a project.

The suggestion that I would include the code so that someone could learn f= rom it is unrealistic. If one of those students get interested in the way I= did the whole thing they find the links for the projects I used as a basem= ent.

Neither operating system development = nor programming in C for plan9 are subjects of my platform and so there is = no benefit for my students having the sources. If someone gets interested h= e/she can use the links for the used open source projects and become fans o= f whatever they like. Perhaps some will get motivated by using such a syste= m to invest the necessary time and effort. I don't hide what I used so = they can become enthusiasts if they want to. But this platform doesn't = need accompanied sources nor will the students have direct access to a shel= l or the tools everything is hidden behind a simple kiosk app which has no = other goal beside being the "envelop" for the real information me= ant to be taught.

9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="khm@sciops.net"; helo=wopr.sciops.net; client-ip=216.126.196.60 Received: from wopr.sciops.net (wopr.sciops.net [216.126.196.60]) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@9fans.net>; Fri, 4 Feb 2022 12:48:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from khm@sciops.net) Received: from localhost (wopr.sciops.net [local]) by wopr.sciops.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id 5241dd99 for <9fans@9fans.net>; Fri, 4 Feb 2022 09:48:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 09:48:50 -0800 To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <1643988626.542516880@apps.rackspace.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1643988626.542516880@apps.rackspace.com> Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: bb53fb08-85e2-11ec-8e5c-b50967675ddc Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZWJiYmM3MGQwZDEyMmZkN2QzZWMx?= =?UTF-8?B?ZGZjPg==?= From: "Kurt H Maier via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mebbbc70d0d122fd7d3ec1dfc:1:sH1qfpIrhr7o6cjTs5XDDOmMRnZbW8NTFdmBZGq_VEs On Fri, Feb 04, 2022 at 09:30:26AM -0600, Kent R. Spillner wrote: >=20 > In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for them= ? ;) >=20 In my experience needing to be told what's best for them is the defining characteristic of a student khm ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mebbbc= 70d0d122fd7d3ec1dfc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,URIBL_CSS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7471 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2022 21:13:14 -0000 Received: from tb-ob1.topicbox.com (64.147.108.173) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Feb 2022 21:13:14 -0000 Received: from tb-mx0.topicbox.com (tb-mx0.nyi.icgroup.com [10.90.30.73]) by tb-ob1.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D0E36E95 for ; 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identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de"; helo=sirjofri.de; client-ip=5.45.105.127 Received: from sirjofri.de (sirjofri.de [5.45.105.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tb-mx0.topicbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS for <9fans@9fans.net>; Fri, 4 Feb 2022 16:12:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de) Received: from sirjofri.de ([95.90.218.152]) by sirjofri.de; Fri Feb 4 22:12:41 +0100 2022 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 21:12:41 +0000 (UTC) From: sirjofri To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Message-ID: <29c0cbaf-c650-445e-8189-d80d636ef719@sirjofri.de> In-Reply-To: <16439921940.7c0Cfec.19105@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <1643988626.542516880@apps.rackspace.com> <16439921940.7c0Cfec.19105@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Correlation-ID: <29c0cbaf-c650-445e-8189-d80d636ef719@sirjofri.de> Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 3df3f09c-85ff-11ec-a603-f9aaa8aed4c6 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NZmE0OGYyNjU1NmY0ZmU3NGRkMDQx?= =?UTF-8?B?NjYwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mfa48f26556f4fe74dd041660:1:3xMlZX2OQ-3X4xJeo-2NER0y9a3UvO4xVLJih1r9YeI 04.02.2022 17:29:55 ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: > On Friday, 4 February 2022, at 4:30 PM, Kent R. Spillner wrote: > In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for=20 > them? ;) > > My platform isn't one for teaching programing its for teaching other=20 > subjects like math, electronics, statics and so on. It's neither my=20 > goal nor the intention of such a project to teach the students how to=20 > realize such a project. > > The suggestion that I would include the code so that someone could=20 > learn from it is unrealistic. If one of those students get interested=20 > in the way I did the whole thing they find the links for the projects I=20 > used as a basement. Well, I personally would like to see how you made a kiosk app like that=20 using a Plan 9 system. It's not that I want to see what you used as a=20 base, but I want to see how you combined all that. So there is a benefit of releasing some parts of the source somewhere at=20 least, if not inside the software, maybe somewhere else. > Neither operating system development nor programming in C for plan9 are=20 > subjects of my platform and so there is no benefit for my students=20 > having the sources. If someone gets interested he/she can use the links=20 > for the used open source projects and become fans of whatever they=20 > like. Perhaps some will get motivated by using such a system to invest=20 > the necessary time and effort. I don't hide what I used so they can=20 > become enthusiasts if they want to. But this platform doesn't need=20 > accompanied sources nor will the students have direct access to a shell=20 > or the tools everything is hidden behind a simple kiosk app which has=20 > no other goal beside being the "envelop" for the real information meant=20 > to be taught. sirjofri ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mfa48f= 26556f4fe74dd041660 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,NICE_REPLY_A,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,URIBL_CSS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29706 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2022 00:09:24 -0000 Received: from tb-ob0.topicbox.com (64.147.108.117) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 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Fri, 4 Feb 2022 16:08:48 -0800 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=------------0f0D00oedy03SjVWiJAsvfqh Message-ID: <2a8d4fc1-12a7-2149-1c1b-ec02e3ceae40@fjrhome.net> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 19:08:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.1 Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question Content-Language: en-US To: Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <1643988626.542516880@apps.rackspace.com> From: "Frank D. Engel, Jr." In-Reply-To: X-Exim-Id: 2a8d4fc1-12a7-2149-1c1b-ec02e3ceae40 X-Bayes-Prob: 0.9999 (Score 4, tokens from: base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: No geolocation information available for 192.168.101.1 X-CanItPRO-Stream: base:default X-Canit-Stats-ID: 016Pc98qv - 71c1fa9f3542 - 20220204 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 192.168.101.82 X-Originating-IP: 192.168.101.82 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: db3e6b58-8617-11ec-af9d-d0fd3c2fedce Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NN2Y4MzdmY2E1MWQ2ODE5YjJjNzBl?= =?UTF-8?B?NTIwPg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:M7f837fca51d6819b2c70e520:1:uplYoS4K4phXsr0_mx_NGilH7fsKtT-kk2TAuq2NOLU --------------0f0D00oedy03SjVWiJAsvfqh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Students who rely on that will never really learn. From my perspective, most supposedly modern systems have been a bigger=20 waste of time than some of the older ones. Windoze, Linux, etc. in some ways still have not caught up to features=20 that Multics and Plan 9, among other systems, had to offer decades ago -=20 and they are bolting things on that came naturally to the older systems,=20 so they don't work very well in contrast.=C2=A0 They build complexity on=20 complexity instead of leveraging a simple consistent approach that can=20 actually be understood. Multics was in some ways a conceptual precursor to today's "cloud=20 computing" (in the sense that it was engineered to be a multi-tenant=20 system with separate projects being billed for the resources they used),=20 while also introducing the world to concepts such as access control=20 lists (ACLs). Plan 9 offers a level of network transparency and process=20 interoperability that most of our "modern" systems don't seem to be able=20 to get right, not to mention having been well-designed for working=20 transparently across systems with differing architectures (SPARC, MIPS,=20 etc.) out of a common file system. If a student just wants to write business logic for some big company=20 doing batch processing or wants to create web sites or some such then=20 sure, let them stick with what is out there at the moment.=C2=A0 If they=20 really want to understand computers and computer programming, they=20 should try to learn from the ground up.=C2=A0 Being limited to "modern"=20 systems won't get them nearly as far as being exposed to a range of=20 ideas and different approaches that have been taken over time. =E2=80=9CThose who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=95Edmund Burke On 2/4/22 12:48 PM, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote: > On Fri, Feb 04, 2022 at 09:30:26AM -0600, Kent R. Spillner wrote: >> In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for the= m? ;) >> > In my experience needing to be told what's best for them is the defining > characteristic of a student > > khm > > > ------------------------------------------ > 9fans: 9fans > Permalink:https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mebbb= c70d0d122fd7d3ec1dfc > Delivery options:https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-M7f837= fca51d6819b2c70e520 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription --------------0f0D00oedy03SjVWiJAsvfqh Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= p>Students who rely on that will never really learn.
From my perspective,= most supposedly modern systems have been a bigger waste of time than some of the older ones.
Windoze, Linux, e= tc. in some ways still have not caught up to features that Multics and Plan 9, among other systems, had to offer decades ago - and they are bolting things on that came naturally to the older systems, so they don't work very well in contrast. They build complexity on complexity instead of leveraging a simple consistent approach that can actually be understood.
Multics was in some ways a conceptual precursor to toda= y's "cloud computing" (in the sense that it was engineered to be a multi-tenant system with separate projects being billed for the resources they used), while also introducing the world to concepts such as access control lists (ACLs).
Plan 9 offers a level of netwo= rk transparency and process interoperability that most of our "modern" systems don'= t seem to be able to get right, not to mention having been well-designed for working transparently across systems with differing architectures (SPARC, MIPS, etc.) out of a common file system.
If a student= just wants to write business logic for some big company doing batch processing or wants to create web sites or some such then sure, let them stick with what is out there at the moment. If they really want to understand computers and computer programming, they should try to learn from the ground up. Being limited to "modern" systems won't get them nearly as fa= r as being exposed to a range of ideas and different approaches that have been taken over time.

“Those = who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke

On 2/4/22 12:48 PM, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
On Fri, Feb 04, 2022= at 09:30:26AM -0600, Kent R. Spillner wrote:
In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for th= em? ;)
In my experience needing to be told what's best for them is the defining characteristic of a student khm ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fa= ns.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mebbbc70d0d122fd7d3ec1dfc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9= fans/subscription
9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery&n= bsp;options Permalink
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Sat, 05 Feb 2022 08:47:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a54:26cb:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:47:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2a8d4fc1-12a7-2149-1c1b-ec02e3ceae40@fjrhome.net> References: <16433324650.ff90B.935638@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16433713090.e62E5Cc03.507002@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434613850.BC38c.59069@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <16434652910.557dFF03.267022@composer.9fans.topicbox.com> <1643988626.542516880@apps.rackspace.com> <2a8d4fc1-12a7-2149-1c1b-ec02e3ceae40@fjrhome.net> From: hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 17:47:27 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [9fans] licence question To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 516e6932-86a3-11ec-9fa3-a0593fd76548 Archived-At: =?UTF-8?B?PGh0dHBzOi8vOWZhbnMudG9waWNib3guY29tL2dyb3Vwcy85?= =?UTF-8?B?ZmFucy9UM2UwN2JmZGYyNjNhODNjOC1NYzc5NmQ1ZDI4ZDRmYjUxNzQ4M2Vh?= =?UTF-8?B?NjA1Pg==?= List-Help: List-Id: "9fans" <9fans.9fans.net> List-Post: List-Software: Topicbox v0 List-Subscribe: Precedence: list Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Unsubscribe: , Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:522be890-2105-11eb-b15e-8d699134e1fa:Mc796d5d28d4fb517483ea605:1:gpOT2CrF8fApG6dfgfPJbugPxEZDakfDkhy9-PQ-yzE > Students who rely on that will never really learn. sad but true. being a student has nothing to do with the willingness to learn, or to put an effort to probe and discover. even more reason why the extra rare curiosity should be rewarded, e.g. by making information available for the one who puts the effort (to try and stab the underlying machinery, in this case to read the underlying code). ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mc796d= 5d28d4fb517483ea605 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription